Pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2046 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3062 times:
Puts in perspective some of the angst some forum members seem to be having over the delays. Thankfully airlines have a longer view outlook and base their decisions on actual business issues not the internet irrationality evident so often displayed. (tired to find a third word beginning with i but could come up with one ) Of course any smart airline will try to leverage this for their bottom line and some delayed airlines may receive some compensation. If they didn't they wouldn't be very smart managers.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3049 times:
After two weeks, there are 26 widebody aircraft on order for Boeing, pretty good for the usual slow Boeing January. I must say that the A320 has started off with a better year thus far than the 737. (I believe at the end of the month we will probably see China, AWAS, and a few others)
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
DAL767400ER From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 5721 posts, RR: 50 Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2843 times:
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 2): I must say that the A320 has started off with a better year thus far than the 737
Well, last year the 737 had a slow start as well, and IIRC at some point widebody orders outnumbered 737 orders 4:1 (400 vs 100) or something like that.
LY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2446 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2774 times:
yes, the 737 started slowly last year; we even were all wondering why it started so slowly.
As for the 787s ordered today, I guess 10 were ordered LY (yesterday, Boeing Signed an Agreement with El Al for Landing Gear Repair and Overhaul Services).
This planes is just .. unbelievable!
1000 orders before EIS just seems more and more likely.
Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 1): Puts in perspective some of the angst some forum members seem to be having over the delays
What can customers do? Sure ... the early ones probably get compensated, but there is really not much to do than accept the delay.
There's the A350, but that's an even longer wait. So unless you can afford to keep flying the A300 or B767 in 2020 ... get in line.
I dont think anybody in A-net expect Boeing to loose any customers because of the delays. For Boeing, however, to pay compensation for 800 (or 1000 frames, if there are a couple of more delays) might make the tremendous success of the B787 bittersweet.
Remember ... the plane has not even left gound yet. Just imagine Boeing crazy flight testing schedule with its problem- and delay potential
RedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4175 posts, RR: 30 Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2553 times:
Quoting LY777 (Reply 5): yes, the 737 started slowly last year; we even were all wondering why it started so slowly.
I remember that well and I also remember posting somewhere that it was a sign that Boeing had let word leak out about plans to unveil the next-gen narrow body.
CAETravlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 898 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2376 times:
Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 1): not the internet irrationality evident so often displayed. (tired to find a third word beginning with i but could come up with one Wink )
I would have made it "incessant internet irrationality" myself.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
Dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 792 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2284 times:
Quoting Chiad (Reply 6): I dont think anybody in A-net expect Boeing to loose any customers because of the delays. For Boeing, however, to pay compensation for 800 (or 1000 frames, if there are a couple of more delays) might make the tremendous success of the B787 bittersweet.
Will Boeing necessarily have to pay compensation for all 800 current orders? As the 787 development progresses Boeing has got to have a better idea of the timeline for testing and EIS and therefore isn't making promises to new customers it knows it can't keep. The first couple hundred orders will probably need to be compensated, but as orders keep coming in the new customers will be well aware of the new timeline for delivery. God forbid any more huge delays, I really doubt that Boeing will have to provide any compensation to the new or recent customers.
N1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 551 posts, RR: 18 Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2034 times:
Quoting LY777 (Reply 5):
As for the 787s ordered today, I guess 10 were ordered LY (yesterday, Boeing Signed an Agreement with El Al for Landing Gear Repair and Overhaul Services).
James Wallace is reporting that it is a top-up order....
Boeing said Thursday it has sold an additional 24 of the planes -- 23 to one unidentified customer. An industry source said this is a follow-on order from a customer that previously had ordered the plane."
PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3987 posts, RR: 93 Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2000 times:
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Quoting N1786b (Reply 11): James Wallace is reporting that it is a top-up order....
Boeing said Thursday it has sold an additional 24 of the planes -- 23 to one unidentified customer. An industry source said this is a follow-on order from a customer that previously had ordered the plane."
We can look at this as follows;
If Boeing had 53 customers at the end of 2007 and it's now 55 we know the following;
1: GF made an MoU / LoI in 2008 that's 54 customers.
2: Contingent on wording, Thai have commited to Lease, whilst not a direct customer, new operator all the same once the tender is complete, so 55.
I rule out Thai, as it's a lease, in which case there could be a strong possibility that this is a new customer for 23 frames. That said Air Canada have 23 outstanding Purchase Rights if Mr Wallace is looking at it from that perspective.
It all comes down to the wording and terminology of the press releases and how one interprets it.
BTW - This was posted well before Boeing updated their spreadsheet
WestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1832 times:
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 13): If Boeing had 53 customers at the end of 2007 and it's now 55 we know the following;
There were 55 customers at the end of 2007 of which 52 are identified customers. The basis for 55 is the press release that outed three 787-9s ordered in 2007 as being for Air Pacific. The 52 identified customers is from the web version of Boeing O&D database.When the web page says "53 unique" you have to actually subtract one for the Unidentified customers which are lumped into a single set.
Both the Seattle PI and Seattle Times are reporting that the 23 are for a single customer. We can deduce that it is not a "new" customer since the 55 number has not changed. Seattle PI (James Wallace) has a source that also says it is an existing customer. As Stitch pointed out in the other thread, Wikipedia shows that AC have exactly 23 options. There are a few others like NH, NW and QR that have more than 23 options.
There is a brief discussion on the unidentified 787 customers at reply 30 in this thread.
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Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26699 posts, RR: 83 Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1770 times:
NH is sitting on 50 options... Be hilarious if they expressed their "extreme disappointment" with the delay by ordering 23 more.
NW is sitting on 50 as well. Perhaps merger rumors with DL are farther along then we've been led to believe?
AC, QF and QR all have enough options on hand to account for 23 conversions.
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1634 times:
Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 10): Will Boeing necessarily have to pay compensation for all 800 current orders?
Nope. They shouldn't have to pay until they know they're delayed. Right not, line number 800 is years away from delivery and they probably don't know if it will be on time or not.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26699 posts, RR: 83 Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1629 times:
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 17): Nope. They shouldn't have to pay until they know they're delayed. Right not, line number 800 is years away from delivery and they probably don't know if it will be on time or not.
Not to mention it would require the 787 production line to remain at a static delivery level over the entire life of the program.
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) Of course any smart airline will try to leverage this for their bottom line and some delayed airlines may receive some compensation. If they didn't they wouldn't be very smart managers.
(I believe at the end of the month we will probably see China, AWAS, and a few others)
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