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BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 2  
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55197 times:

Second part.

Let the speculation, nonsense, news, and all that, continue!

"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
276 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineGQ From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55229 times:

In other related news, Sir Branson flies BA. According to reports he was on the same flight as Prime Minister Brown heading to China...carry on

Traveling somewhere, could be anywhere...there's a strangeness in the air but I don't care
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55228 times:

Quoting GQ (Reply 2):
Sir Branson flies BA.

Probably only because Virgin was full.  Wink

"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineB7X7 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55324 times:

CNN pictures show one of the landing gear fell off, and is sitting on the grass


User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3314 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55255 times:

Looking at the marks in the grass, firstly there are two lines in the grass, and then after a few hundred feet, there are 4 lines in the grass, perhaps suggesting that those extra 2 lines are the engines scrapping against the grass which perhaps suggests that is when the landing gear collapsed.

Anyhow BA is the last airline I would have associated with a 777 incident/accident. However I guess this is a credit to the safety of the 777 that no one died.

News seems to suggest that one cause may be flying into a flock of large birds e.g. geese

Overall I am glad that everyone is mostly OK. The load numbers seem quite small which may have helped things.

By the way, seems like A.net is about to crash. What a rubbish time to do so.

Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
User currently offlineEllehammer From Denmark, joined Jun 2007, 95 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55135 times:

Some people wonder why the slide was so short... - Well, one look at how the engines have been ground away explains that!

User currently offlineBoeing777/747 From Belgium, joined Dec 2001, 643 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55145 times:

I guess this a total loss case?

User currently offlineAwthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55079 times:

It is utterly strange that this Boeing 777-236 has landed and actually came to a halt before even reaching the touchdown zone of the runway on which it was attempting to land (if this is actually the case and it looks like it).

This would NOT have been caused by an undercarriage failure of any kind.

In my mind, I cannot help but narrow down to three broad scenarios when I look at this accident......

One possibility is a very serious control failure of some kind, ie. complete loss of pitch control leaving the flight deck crew with engine thrust variation as their only means of adjusting pitch, ie. the United DC-10 disaster at Sioux City in 1989.

A second possibility is a serious error of judgement on the part of the flight deck crew in terms of flying a stable approach and completing a successful landing in the touch down zone - almost unthinkable but stranger things have happened in aviation! A struggle with an intruder of some kind on the flight deck could explain this outcome. Passengers were given reasonable warning of an impending emergency landing so this one is unlikely.

A third scenario comes from a strange resemblance to the Kegworth air disaster also of 1989 (G-OBME). Impacting short of the runway was the result of complete loss of all power on the final approach preventing the aircraft from making the runway, sadly with much worse results since there was a deep motorway embankment in it's path. In today's accident, I believe this could only have happened as a result of fuel starvation.

Watch this space!

Thankfully however, there has been no loss of life but I think we will all admit that this accident came uncomfortably close to becoming a much more serious one.

User currently offlineSQ452 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55208 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
Second part.

Let the speculation, nonsense, news, and all that, continue!

Nicely put....

And whoever put the photo up who was spotting I think gets the award for "fastest posting of an airline disaster"...damn that was fast...see, I knew an A*nutter was out there spotting today!!!!  Smile

[Edited 2008-01-17 07:06:55]

User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3077 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 55023 times:

Quoting Boeing777/747 (Reply 7):
I guess this a total loss case?

It's probably an insurance write-off for sure. Can't see BA or Boeing rebuilding it though it would be possible i think... planes worse damaged have been rebuilt.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlinePhotoLPPT From Portugal, joined Jul 2004, 520 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 54791 times:

Am I seeing things, or is a small bit of the vertical stabilizer missing? Fell on impact, or may have contributed to the incident?

User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11955 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 54642 times:

Sky's correspondant (Adam Boulton?) keeps refering to the aircraft as a "BA airbus".


"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 54540 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

A guy on sky said the plane looked like it was pitching up and down a lot on approach and came in on what sounds like a short final. Makes me think either a pitch control error or I may stick with my CoG being too far back theory and it was only an issue as the aircraft got slower.


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 54516 times:

Quoting PhotoLPPT (Reply 15):
Am I seeing things, or is a small bit of the vertical stabilizer missing? Fell on impact, or may have contributed to the incident?

Looks like that's just an antiservo tab on the rudder, angled slightly toward the photographer. That's normal.

I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27334 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 54522 times:

Quoting Thom@s (Reply 16):
Sky's correspondant (Adam Boulton?) keeps refering to the aircraft as a "BA airbus".

Well he is such a idiot what do you expect!!!

Must give credit to the BA crew who got everyone out. Their training really kicked in today.

User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 54529 times:

I post it again :

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (Reply 269):
AF A343 at YYZ.

that's exaggerating

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 267):

Maybe they had the Autothrust very low , so the A/C was approaching slow with some nose wind which could have stopped blowing and then producing that the A/C didn't had enough time to get drag to make it to the runway .


User currently offlineTimmytour From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 54506 times:

Quoting PhotoLPPT (Reply 15):
Am I seeing things, or is a small bit of the vertical stabilizer missing? Fell on impact, or may have contributed to the incident?

is that the website or the plane you are talking about  Smile

User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11955 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 54384 times:

One of the passengers being interviewed by Sky News says he first thought it was just a rought landing, and didn't realise anythyng was wrong until the oxygen masks came down, and they were told to evacuate.

"I've experienced rough landings before, and I thought 'this is a rough landing'..."


"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineSplitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 54371 times:

I wanna check out that CVR and DFDR Data QUICK!!!  Smile

User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 54370 times:

All shorthaul departures from Heathrow cancelled for the rest of the day in line with our emergency plans.

User currently offlineStrudders From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 55468 times:

Off work today so missed all the hullabaloo

When I was on a T4 orientation day, I was with Dispatch. I was assigned to a Whisky Stand 777 Mike Mike! However it went technical and we had to Bus the punters back off the plane after 3 hours! Sad to see it like this is now. Great Credit to all the Crew. Well done Girls and Boys you have done yourselves proud. Well done Boeing for such a strong frame too.

Best Regards


User currently offlineEMAlad From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 55474 times:

Other people on sky say that it was going "backwards and forwards in the sky"
What on earth does that mean?

User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 55720 times:

"When we hit the ground it was extremely rough, but I've had rough landings before and I thought 'This is the roughest I've had.'

What airlines has this guy been flying not to notice this was a bit more than a rough landing?

If this was a bird strike, I wonder if the environmentalists will now sue BA for killing some and traumatizing the survivors (the birds, of course, not the people).

Glad there was no fire. Hopefully the fire/rescue folks will be able to return to station so they can get the airport open again (if that hasn't already happened).

User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 55499 times:

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 11):
... planes worse damaged have been rebuilt.

Yes, but that were new aircraft, one or two years old (like a JAL 742 in teh 70s, a LH Cargo 742F in 1983, or the IB A346 last November which appears to be repaired, though the IB Airbus seems to be a bit less damaged than the BA aircraft now). The BA 777 aircraft is 7 years old, with almost 30% of its normal service life already spent. And at least one wing and both engines and complete undercarriage are completely destroyed, not to mention possible damage to the fuselage and wingbox.

User currently offlineLegoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3314 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 55497 times:

Well the short stopping distance suggests it came in at an extremely high angle. I can not read the other thread as A.net for me as basically seized up. Sorry if this has already been established.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
Must give credit to the BA crew who got everyone out. Their training really kicked in today.

Indeed, Kudos to the crew members and the pilots (if the incident wasn't caused by the pilots in the first place).

Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
25 Pope : is this the first 777 hull loss?
26 Sprout5199 : hard to tell where the sheared off gear was actually located by the pics. thanks for the info. Dan in Jupiter
27 LHRjc : That and I guess the landing gear will have got bogged down in the wet grass - looking at the depth of the ruts in the grass it dug itself in nicely.
28 JBirdAV8r : If that were the case (some sort of windshear event) then the pilots would have done what I described--immediately initiated a go-around. You can ini
29 Post contains links and images Gh123 : G-YMMM Total Hours: 23476 at 31/12/2006 Year Built: 2001 So it seems as though this wonderful aircraft will be the first 777 to be scrapped: View Larg
30 RFields5421 : Look at the tire tracks - the plane stayed relatively level and smooth through the short rollout. It only yawed in the last few seconds of the skid.
31 Slarty : Another bloke was interviewed on Sky news and he was on the plane and stated that there were no emergency announcements prior to the "hard" landing, a
32 JBirdAV8r : Not necessarily true. Anything other than pavement can slow/stop you much quicker than you'd think.
33 Flipdewaf : It just said on sky that one passenger said there was flames coming up the side? I hadnt heard this before. maybe just wrong. Fred
34 Slarty : One of the photos clearly shows at least one of the engines plowed a lot of earth.
35 Cloudyapple : BBC News said captain told someone he lost all power and glided the craft into land.
36 MAN23R : BREAKING NEW.... Captain told airport crew that he lost all avionics and engine power "I had to glide the plaine in".... id so, well done to the crew.
37 Virgin747LGW : appparently the captain said it lost all power and avionics!!!! this shouldnt happen on modern jets should it?
38 Christopherwoo : Captain quoted as saying "All power and avionics lost, had to glide in"
39 Padster : if it had lost all power then they were very very lucky to make it ! No wonder the pilot looked pale ...
40 ScrubbsYWG : the website for the asset management company that bought the two varig 777s said that they are parting one out.
41 Gh123 : Willie Walsh has just spoken - not shed any new light
42 Smcmac32msn : On the right side of the bird right near the aft part of the wingbox, it looks like there might have been a small fire with the blackened area above
43 AirbusA6 : Of course Varig's was an ex BA machine anyway! Well done to everyone on a successful evaucation, but a blow to BA, as long haul aircraft were tight b
44 Ikramerica : no visual evidence of that I could see from the pics.
45 Ellehammer : Both engines dying due to bird ingestion? I think the low fuel speculation is a bit ridiculous. Surely they would have known in time and diverted. Oth
46 Keysman73 : This is beginning to sound like the QF flight that landed in BKK the other day having lost all power...let's wait and see I suppose. Alan.
47 LHRjc : I'd like to think it shouldn't happen on any aeroplane!
48 Khobar : But this fellow didn't realize anything until the doors were opened and they were told to evacuate.
49 JBirdAV8r : Exactly. When your main gear are dragging the mud at an angle, struts halfway through the wing, and when those big paperweights on the wing are diggi
50 OA260 : BA have put into place a commercial policy for their passengers ::: Following the incident at Heathrow on Thursday 17January 2008, with one of our Boe
51 LHStarAlliance : Wow what could have done that the A/C lost all Power ?
52 RFields5421 : If someone is completely clueless and brain dead - that's who the media will interview and proclaim an expert eyewitness.
53 Singapore_Air : One presumes that engine power and avionics power is a totally separate issue. Hence, in unabashed speculation, how would engine power and avionics po
54 Post contains images Cloudyapple : Damage to both wings.
55 Timmytour : I'd say the insurers could expect to pay out around $125m on this
56 JBirdAV8r : It's happened at least three times. 1983 -- Air Canada 243, a 767-200 2000s -- Air Transat, an A330 2000s -- Hapag-Lloyd A310 The 767 and A330 made a
57 Fiatstilojtd : Money is one thing, but where do they get a replacement aircraft very short-term...
58 Coa747 : How about the thrid picture which shows the left main gear pushed up through the wing. That had to be an extremely hard landing to force the gear thro
59 Post contains links Ellehammer : Very big photos here: http://www.flightglobal.com/AirSpace...accident/images/8124/original.aspx http://www.flightglobal.com/AirSpace...accident/images
60 MadameConcorde : How could the aircraft suddenly lose all power and avionics? It is a true miracle that only 6 people got injured (probably from going down the slides)
61 JBirdAV8r : Failure of both engines without the APU running/tied to the electrical busses would do it.
62 Legoguy : Shocking to see BBC news rightly mentioned this 777 in question had RR engines where as most of BA's 777 fleet have GE engines. Looking at the picture
63 AC320 : In the future, please don't start second parts of threads without e-mailing and receiving an acknowledgement from the moderators first.
64 AirbusA346 : How long do you think it will be before they paint the titles out and they start to try and move it? And will it be cut up on scene to move it? Tom.
65 Post contains links and images HAWK21M : Looks bad. Whats BA Statement like. regds MEL
66 Post contains links Smcmac32msn : http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Britis...1/fbbbe186f1214ecd86b7e5858460643b Pictures 1, 13, 18, and 20 in this sequence show a 'black' area just aft of
67 Christopherwoo : Some aviation expert was suggesting a flock of something like Canada Geese... that could have mutilated both engines?
68 AT : I thought that Runway 27L at Heathrow had the approach lights leading up to the Threshold? But it doesn't seem so, based on the pics... And did that h
69 JBirdAV8r : I would think there would be damage all over the airplane from a flock big enough to damage two huge engines to death that are spread so far apart. T
70 Gh123 : It looks as though the pilot had applied full rudder to the right indicating that he had tried to steer off the runway.
71 Post contains images 2H4 : Onto another bet already, Mel? 2H4
72 Post contains images Flying Belgian : The first major incident with a 777 had to happen a day... and we are all happy there are no fatalities. Notwithstanding all the speculations, the cre
73 Slarty : Are there Canadian geese in the UK? Anyways, that would explain the pilot reports of "lost all power" but what about the loss of avionics?
74 JBirdAV8r : Most approach lighting systems have poles that are designed to break away cleanly if they are hit by an errant aircraft.
75 BeechNut : Loss of power; bird strike is certainly a possibility. However, punctured wings with no post-crash fire? My gut feeling still says fuel exhaustion. A
76 Amciver : A huge storm has just broken over West London - does this add to the Windshear theory?
77 Gh123 : Sh*t loads of them. And I mean A LOT.
78 Cloudyapple : Oh sure and the runway wont be able to be reopened for arrivals for a looooong time.
79 MadameConcorde : Must have been a shock for the passengers inside the aircraft to experience such an abrupt landing. The cockpit crew/Captain did a fabulous job landin
80 Bwohlgemuth : This seems much more likely. A long haul flight, someone forgot to carry the three? Dual wing punctures and no fire? Seems unlikely unless they compl
81 LHR27C : Yes, although according to the LHR list 27L has already reopened for some intersection departures.
82 AirbusA346 : According to BBC News 24 aircraft are taking off from 09R. Tom.
83 YULWinterSkies : Why? They are among the largest 777 operators in the world -as well as one of the oldest- and virtually all 777 operators are reliable airlines free
84 Etops1 : the plane shouldn't be a total loss. ba should just turn it into a 777 cabin trainer . the fuselage looks intact.
85 Oly720man : Are there any fuel tanks above the undercarriage legs? And from what I remember from long ago lectures, the fuel is used from inboard to outboard so
86 Farnborough24 : So it flew through a flock of birds, both engines ingested some, failed, and with no APU running all power and avionics were lost, leaving the pilot t
87 Tdscanuck : Boeing might want to foot the bill to rebuilt it just so they can still say "Zero 777 hull loses." Qantas did something similar with a 747 that was b
88 Coa747 : Frangible fixtures, enginered with a point of failure just like most large roadway signs. The FAA as well as other aviation governing bodies has regul
89 A320ajm : BA's chief executive has just told Sky News he is very proud of the cabin and flight crew of this flight. Then one of the reporters said to him 'We ha
90 Amciver : Like QF1 in 1999 from SYD to BKK?
91 Myt332 : At 500ft according to BA Engineering Ops.
92 UAL777UK : That makes sense, the whole runway need not be closed if the situation is under control and they can get rid of any back log. If the captain did glid
93 NA : Sure, but "incident" is quite an understatement here. If my car has two fenders damaged, its tyres and axles gone and the engine blown up I´d call i
94 RB211TriStar : I'm going with this theory. It must have happened very last second if the passengers weren't notified for and emergency landing. I wonder if the pilo
95 Cloudyapple : It's single runway ops at the moment. No way 09R is being used. They meant 27R I suppose.
96 Coa747 : The RAT provides very little if any power at low airspeed as it isn't spinning fast enough. The crew of the Gimli Glider, the Air Canada 767-200 that
97 KL911 : Still watching Skynews live on internet and they are still spraying foam on the wings and at the huge hole in it. So it seems there is fuel in those w
98 Keysman73 : Well, I think that there was another one recently of a QF 747 which experienced an almost total power outage during finals to BKK. There was a discuss
99 Legoguy : Because despite BA's size, they have had quite a good history when it comes in accidents and the 777 also has pretty much a spotless history.
100 Post contains images Aero145 : An Il-76 would have been able to land on that grass! But seriously... why do I feel this aircraft won't be taking off again?
101 BA747-436 : We thinking the huge hole in the wing is caused by the landing gear strut being pushed upwards upon landing or something to do with the engine. . . ?
102 JBirdAV8r : Right, you'd lose the "standard" PFD/MFD/extra bells and whistles and be down to the backups in the load shed, correct? I don't think, even if we tak
103 MadameConcorde : From BBC webcast, one RR rep said the aircraft is equipped with two RR Trent 800 engines.
104 B747forever : So can anyone please sum it all up for me?? So what will happen to the a/c, what is the reason for the incident, and will this destroy the 777s accide
105 SBBRTech : Could that bring the 777 down? Someone said in the 1st part of the thread that the pilots were having problems with the angle of attack during landin
106 B747forever : Wonder that also, have start a thread regarding this in Site related
107 AirbusA346 : Looks like they have deflated and removed the slides now and are just using a set of stairs. Tom.
108 Post contains images BmiBaby737 : First photos on Airliners.net... urgh... read? The reason will not entirely be known until an investigation has been done, but it seem as though it lo
109 AirbusA346 : BBC News 24 are still saying that 09R is open for take offs. Tom.
110 Legoguy : If the flock of birds was large enough, it could take out both engines although no one knows yet of the cause. Birds ar e only a small possibility. S
111 Gordonroxburgh : You mean 27L for departures
112 CMHFlyGuy : It isn't sounding like passengers were given any warning from this quote from CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/01/17/heathrow.incident/i
113 GCT64 : OK - as far as I can ascertain from my SBS-1 .... at 1655/1700 local .... 27s are being used. Arrivals are on 27R, departures might well be as well. S
114 Post contains links Markam : They are reporting it as an emergency landing in Spanish on-line newspapers, although only El Pais gives more details, mentioning that the aircraft ha
115 Legoguy : Are you sure. I thought it was 27L where the incident happen as you can see the other runway in the background (presumably 27R)
116 OA260 : Yeah unless you read from the start its hard to catch up on all the posts. ----------------------------------- bmi operations at London Heathrow foll
117 B747forever : I really doubt that 27R will be used for landings when the a/c have been removed. It will take a while til 27R can be used for landings again!!
118 Post contains links CMHFlyGuy : The International BBC News website is giving many, many more details on the crash right now and a diagram at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engla
119 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : As always the exception confirms the rule because this: was proven wrong by this. Niki Lauda himself said in an interview a few years back that the po
120 AT : The aircraft seems to be sitting at the very beginning of 27L... While that would prohibit landings of course, couldn't takeoffs proceed relatively un
121 GCT64 : Let's be clear: it is 27L that is closed - 27R is in full operation and is being used for landings and takeoffs.
122 Splitz : Well, DFDR data will definitely tell us all the parameters in question,especially fuel flow, fuel quantity and a bunch of other factors!
123 Post contains images Legoguy : Guys, why can runway 27R not be used for landings? It was 27L where the accident happened, not 27R
124 BladeLWS : Depends on MTOW etc I'm sure, but I think it also has to do with debris being blown toward the accident site by departing aircraft.[Edited 2008-01-17
125 Pilot21 : In all cases where something is deemed a write off, BA would be given the value of the aircraft as it was until before the crash (i.e. it's value on
126 OA260 : Here is a video I took recently in that area.
127 BrianDromey : Looking at some airports websites, delays are a lot shorter than I would have expected, some CANX and diverted flights, bit of a nightmare for airpor
128 Post contains images RJ111 : Do you reckon there's any chance 09L will be used for takeoffs over the next few days? Haven't seen them do that since Concorde (on occasions).
129 B747forever : " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...6.stm Interesting article
130 WhoopWhoop : Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 79): would think there would be damage all over the airplane from a flock big enough to damage two huge engines to death that
131 Post contains images Scbriml : Yes, of course. I've had a long day and I've screwed up. I've asked for my less than helpful posts to be deleted.
132 Barney Captain : Im just not buying fuel starvation as a likely cause. You would have several indications of impending starvation long before both engines flamed out
133 MadameConcorde : I am waiting for the facts and reports by investigators on this spectacular accident rather than going into speculations about what happened. Again, a
134 Post contains links HangarRat : According to aviation-safety.net, this would only be BA's fifth hull loss since 1974, and only the third due to an accident, if this aircraft is W/O.
135 Awthompson : Earlier reports from a passenger mentioned that passengers were told to brace, but this may of course have been in the last few seconds. Flight Inter
136 Skibum9 : Wouldn't this be the first hull loss for the 777?
137 Sevenair : ANd what do you know - BA have cancelled the entire short haul network - again.
138 TristarSteve : Yes there are. The centre tank is above the undercarriage, but this is always empty on landing. The centre tank on the B777 goes out into the wings a
139 GT4EZY : Just changing the slant slightly. I was listening to the interview on BBC News earlier with the tug driver who says he spoke to the Captain. Is anyone
140 Post contains images Halls120 : How DARE you wait for the facts and refuse to engage in poorly informed speculation! After all, this isn't a case where authorities will lack the abi
141 GCT64 : Which seems to be the now standard BA reaction to anything happening at all. Meanwhile BA passengers at GLA, EDI etc. will watch BMI planes leaving p
142 B747-4U3 : Is it just me or does there seem to be some contradictory facts? As far as I can see there have now been 2 eye-witnesses that have commented on a loud
143 Post contains images Legoguy : I was going off in recent memory, they have had a 737-200 on fire on the ground in manchester (1985) and a BAe ATP landing without one of its main ge
144 Genius12 : Apparently the first thing the passengers knew that something had gone wrong (apart from the approach feeling quite fast) was the oxygen masks droppin
145 Richierich : Good thoughts - I would think it is likely to be (generally) one of the above scenarios. Of course, there is almost certainly some information that w
146 LY4XELD : So you're saying the first time they noticed something wrong was when they hit the ground? BBC was reporting that the captain said they "lost power".
147 MCOflyer : I would like to know the facts before I presume anything. Congratulations to both pilots who safely put this bird down in one piece. even if the outco
148 CMHFlyGuy : I believe this was the quote aired on the Beeb now online... I would think they would have been taken somewhere safe - but what's not to say someone
149 B707forever : I'm very grateful no one was seriously hurt and really happy to see that all the shoots deployed allowing a quick evacuation. It will be very interest
150 B747forever : Cant agree more with you!!!
151 Genius12 : Just seen an interview with passengers on Five News (UK), who said that the oxygen masks was the first sign something had gone wrong.
152 Thom@s : Sky News getting a bit carried away during their coverage of the story, at one point refering to it as "a catastrophic accident". Thom@s
153 Speedbird2155 : This has been a major incident for BA, staff at LHR will be recovering from this and assisting those customers on that flight. Also, due to the runwa
154 PanAm1971 : Hmmm. That is very very interesting, I'd love to know exactly when that event took place. Very interesting... and disturbing if it happened just befo
155 Post contains images Argonaut : Who? Perhaps Sir Richard? Or Sir Richard Branson? But"Sir Branson"? Hilarious, but nonsense. (Sorry, couldn't resist )
156 Glom : It's the millenium bug! Only 8 years late. Didn't that flight land at a diversion airfield, not its destination. Hee hee. Cranford agreement is out t
157 6YJJK : Who's this pillock? From BBC News: Had to get that little sound-bite in to look good for the voters, didn't he? And people wonder why I don't vote.
158 Cedarjet : I don't agree. No-one died. No-one seriously hurt*. BA people are supposed to mope around, teary-eyed, "We don't feel like flying after this"? More l
159 Sketty222 : Here Here!!! My opinion: Avionics failure[Edited 2008-01-17 10:01:31]
160 PanAm1971 : IMHO possible catestrophic software error. Total power failure should be next to impossible... unless commanded.
161 Boeing747_600 : If you're referring to the first image in reply 69, then what you're seeing is probably the rudder trim panel indicating right trim. Now the pilot ma
162 Queso : At the end of a long flight and with little fuel remaining onboard and with what was apparently a very light passenger load that 777 would have still
163 FFlyer : I'm suprised that nobody has raised the big, ugly T-word! T...ism. Somebody from the US was bound to say it, so why not me. This was sarcasm, of cours
164 Thom@s : Scotland Yard were fairly quick to reject the theory of it being an act of terrorism. Seemed rather unlikely from the start anyway in my opinion. Tho
165 Strudders : Just a thought. I dont see from the pic's that the spoilers have been deployed? I appreciate the severity of the landing but should they not have been
166 Post contains links and images AirTranTUS : In this BBC article, there are conflicting statements. First there is the account of someone who says they talked to the pilot who stated all power wa
167 Itsonlyme : John McDonnell is a left wing Labour MP who challenged Brown for the leadership. I must say, for some reason, there has been an aweful lot on the new
168 Lapper : "Nigel old boy, I seem to have dinged the plane..." 27L is reopen for take offs, 27R is being used for landings. I suppose it's entirely possible if t
169 Post contains images Teme82 : They aren't deployed. Perhaps because there wasn't any hydraulic power to raise them is the cause why they weren't deployed.. Just my
170 FFlyer : A bomb in the avionics bay, with a pressure fuse. The plane possibly thought to be the one taking the Prime Minister overseas, but maybe switched to
171 Queso : Already been addressed early on by British Government officials. I don't think so. A fuel situation that dire would have called for an emergency bein
172 N1120A : Has anyone else thought that wind shear makes sense here?
173 LTBEWR : I only heard of this a about 12:30 NYC time. Thank God this wasn't a major fatal accident and all escaped safely. From the preliminary comments on it'
174 Gh123 : 2 x ROLLS-ROYCE RB211 TRENT 895-17 Would the precision approach systems & ILS be damaged in anyway. I don't know the technical details of the systems
175 Speedbird2155 : While there were thankfully no deaths or no serious injuries, many people would have been left feeling shaken and I can am proud of the fact that BA
176 MadameConcorde : On BBC News 24, they had an expert on there who said that there has "never" been a case of any twin engined jet losing power to both engines at the sa
177 Queso : No thunderstorms (or mountains) in the area, it's possible a 747 could have been landing in front of it and it hit wake turbulence but I think windsh
178 WPIAeroGuy : Wow I was just on G-YMMM two weeks ago on my first 777 flight. Poor bird, she was good to me. Glad everyone is okay.
179 Phollingsworth : Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember that the area directly above the main gear attach points is actually covered by composite panels, whi
180 BTCCMan : Wind shear does not cause total power failure - it is down moving air that effectively pushes the aircraft to the ground from above. It is clear from
181 N1120A : Windshear doesn't require storms to form. The similarities to DL191 are just too obvious to overlook. G-YMMM is not going to fly again.
182 Spacecadet : Several people earlier in the thread. It does not, however, jibe with the pilot's statements about losing all power and avionics before landing. Also
183 Tonymctigue : I suppose the thing with this accident is that the AC is largely intact & the investigators don't have to go searching for flight recorders so from an
184 BeechNut : What makes you so sure a fuel emergency wasn't declared? Because nobody on the BBC said so? You won't know for sure until investigators release that
185 Birdbrainz : Maybe they had either a faulty fuel indicator, or a leak. I think so too. Short final. Loss of power. Near stall. No fire. No marks from a bird strik
186 N1120A : Actually, windshear can indeed cause the engines to shut down, and at the point this aircraft was at the RAT wouldn't have had a chance to deploy, wh
187 Swiftski : Wonder if anyone was at Myrtle Avenue for this?
188 Cedarjet : Well it can't have been that strong! And I've never heard Boeing being "known for their strong gear" - I'm sure Airbus gear is just as strong. Probab
189 Spacecadet : Thousands of aircraft fly through windshear every day - why would only this one lose both engines? It's a common fallacy to think that only those pla
190 Kmh1956 : Has it already been determined that the hull is a complete loss? Here's a wild thought....let's wait until an investigation has been completed before
191 Tdscanuck : Unknown, unknown, and no to "destroy" but it obviously doesn't improve it. Yes. Bird flock is one of the few common mode failures for the engines (al
192 Gordonroxburgh : re - the Concorde incident in the 80s; there actually was a hydraulics failure and that meant reduced range as they has to decelerate earlier. There w
193 Moo : Those comments are currently second hand from an as yet unknown source - their validity cannot be confirmed and as such they cannot be taken as gospe
194 SeeTheWorld : Except for the fact there was a major thunderstorm at the time.
195 TristarSteve : OK sorry. The main undercarriage fwd attach point is the rear spar of the wing, which is the raer spar of the centre wing tank. The rear attach point
196 Tom in NO : They obviously haven't done their research.....May of 1988, a TACA 737-300 approaching New Orleans loses both engines while flying through a thunders
197 BAW716 : I went to PPRUne to see if there were any pilot discussion on what happened at LHR and it seems that their servers are down (?). I find that very inte
198 Eha : total engine loss does not mean the A/C cannot be powered/controlled anymore...Emergency batteries and/or APU could still provide electrical power to
199 Post contains images 2H4 : I was thinking the same thing, but looking at the photos, almost all of the sliding was done on the grass: It looks like it only slid a very short di
200 Pe@rson : 99.9% of "pilots" on this website don their uniforms 5 days a week... to fly Flight Simulator!
201 EWRCabincrew : By uniform, you mean a cup of coffee, a wife beater, y-fronts and house shoes?
202 2H4 : So long as it's done in a constructive, intelligent manner, there's absolutely nothing wrong with speculating. It's a discussion forum, after all. 2H
203 Pe@rson : Whatever happens in your house... will stay in your house.
204 Halls120 : Excellent point. So far, all we've heard are second and third hand reports of what the pilots supposedly said.
205 Hotelmode : 777 APU autostarts if power is lost from both engines... BBC have also said that the wings contained well over min fuel. Willy Walsh has said he is "
206 GDB : Got a grandstand view of the immediate aftermath. But, I don't know anything other than what is reported, but we avoided what could have been a major
207 HAWK21M : The L/G.....are having a Shear pins that shear out in case of impact to prevent further damage to the Airframe. regds MEL
208 Khobar : But who would want to target him, and why? Batteries would keep things going for a bit. There's a problem with the engine failure idea (if the report
209 Spacecadet : An SAS MD-8X also lost both engines in a snowstorm after takeoff, crash landed in a field. Can't remember the airline, but another DC-9 lost both eng
210 Post contains images EWRCabincrew : You know it's true, though Back to topic, glad to hear all are well and the crew did a phenomenal job (would you expect anything less?). Speculation
211 BAW716 : Pearson...not sure what you meant exactly by that comment, but there are some "real pilots" on this forum and while admittedly I am a "virtual pilot"
212 Hotelmode : Actually the airframe noise alone is fairly substantial and it was low, it would have made a noise, and the apu had started.
213 Post contains images Pe@rson : Surely that should be "real pilots" - wink, wink, nudge, nudge?
214 Richierich : What could possibly cause a complete in-flight shutdown of power on an aircraft with multiple redundancies and back-ups? Can't be a simple short - cou
215 Voodoo : Southern AW. Early '70s. ~~'ATC: 'On the highway copy. We'll call the equipment.'
216 797 : Damn it, this morning I was in class of Pilots Operations, chapter of NORMAL LANDINGS and got an SMS with the information of this particular one perfo
217 ChrisNH : No fire = no fuel. Could they have run out?
218 Khobar : Somehow I don't think the report of "more noise than normal" referred to the airframe noise that would be heard in the absence of engine noise. Would
219 CubanMinotaur : Just heard from CNN that BOTH engines failed!!! Isn't that extremely rare? Where these Pratt ^& Whitneys or GE's?
220 BuyantUkhaa : Given that the left MLG is still kind of attached to the plane, it must have broken off at the last moment just before the plane came to rest - perhap
221 Theginge : But equaly if there was nothing to ignite the fuel there would be no fire!
222 Jogales : Rolls-Royce...
223 2H4 : Not necessarily. Almost all of the sliding was done on grass. Probably wet grass and mud, if rain and thunderstorms had been in the area. In addition
224 DBCC : If that was true, 99% of planes flying today would be dropping out the sky. there is at one person on a flight who "forgets" to switch their phone of
225 MSYtristar : Yep, made an emergency landing on a road in the ATL area. Some survivors in that one.
226 Voodoo : Anyone care to rule out some variation of the 'shut down the wrong engine after one appears to be going wrong' syndrome that caused the BD 734 crash a
227 DUSDude : I am astounded by the continuing speculation about loss of power. From the pictures it should be evident that no fuel tanks were ruptured. The landing
228 Post contains images Cloudyapple : Oh sorry I didn't mean to press the big red button that says "Emergency Stop" - never knew it was a Boeing option~ [Edited 2008-01-17 11:32:21]
229 Post contains links Zbrox : http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19911227-0
230 Jawed : who cares if it's "terrorism-related"? i never figured that one out. if an accident happens, whether it's "terrorism-related" or due to mechanical fai
231 F9Animal : I am thinking the same on this. Looks like a pretty violent touchdown caused this. I guess we can count our blessings on this one!
232 Voodoo : The plane was reported to have 'dropped like a stone' from a 200 feet height i.e. not far from the perimeter at all. Engines may have still been spoo
233 2H4 : Well, the airframe and engine manufacturers, for one. Anyone who could potentially be at risk of future events, for another. 2H4
234 Geekydude : This piece of BBC report says the aircraft lost all power and avionics and the capitan had to glide in....
235 Post contains images Halls120 : There you go again, deflating the source of 99.9% of Anet postings! Um, what were you saying about eyewitness opinions? Unless, of course, they knew
236 Mmedford : Wow, definately good job to the crew 0% loss of life... Could anyone see Boeing & BA teaming up to repair this aircraft to keep the 777 hull loss to @
237 Singapore_Air : MP for the local area (paraphrased) The govenrment needs a rethink on whether this expansion should go ahead. The last place you'd want to expand an a
238 DUSdude : That (assuming the eyewitness is correct, which is big "if") is still consistent with windshear. If that is indeed true, then I shall humbly eat crow
239 TristarSteve : Well looking at all the photos, I think it will be repaired.
240 Kmh1956 : Thanks for THAT picture!! If you'll note, I said "wildly" speculating.....like this....
241 Post contains images OA260 : Here we go again , BBC interviewing some eco warrior who says it is dangerous for A/C to fly so near to residential areas!!! He wants a new risk asses
242 GDB : Did not take long for someone to crawl out of the woodwork waving their agendas around. Do we know which MP? I can guess but could be wrong.
243 DUSdude : That's a NIMBY issue, not an ECO issue. Let's keep those separate.
244 SWALUVFA : Oh but lets remember.......only a few weeks ago, AOL and other news articles were calling the Flight Attendant job one of the most "cushy" jobs out th
245 Kaitak : Yes, certainly; I'd assess the risk of someone's boot connecting sharply with his nether regions as "quite high". Re the MP, I think that's hardly un
246 10Driver : Actually, I think you're thinking of a microburst. Wind Shear is any abrupt change in wind velocity (speed or direction). A microburst is a rapidly s
247 6YJJK : John McDonnell, Hayes and Harlington. News 24 just had a grainy clip of (what's claimed to be) the aircraft on approach.
248 Post contains images RJdxer : It would if the weather conditions supported it, but from all I've read it didn't. Especially low level windshear. Even wake turbulence would be a st
249 CAP2008 : Kudos to the Pilots and cabin crew, remember ANY landing you can walk away from is a good landing.
250 Kaitak : Channel 4 has just named the head of the AAIB team investigating the accident: this is a Mr. Robin Tideman, a 10 year AAIB veteran, previously with th
251 BA0284 : How would the aircraft be removed and where would it go? Any ideas? BA0284
252 Spacecadet : As would be the case with wind shear. You make several assumptions about fuel starvation and then directly contradict yourself with regard to wind sh
253 GDB : What a surprise-not! Thought it might be him. My local MP, dedicated to putting me and many others of his constituents out of a job. He backed that C
254 Kaitak : There was a former accident investigator interviewed on the Channel 4 News, who said - looking at the pictures - that the aircraft is a write off; I
255 DBCC : If that is sthe case, does it mean ETOPS reverts Most airports were there long before every idiot decided to build a house right next to it. Airport w
256 DUSdude : ...which was only reported after my initial post, wherefore I have qualified my prior statement and am ready to take it back as soon as someone confi
257 Thom@s : Personally I enjoyed the theory of one of the "experts" interviewed today (by Sky News I think) who said something like.. "Well if the pilot sneezed j
258 Singapore_Air : What do you guys make of the amateur video footage being shown on BBC NEWS? It's a very high (nose up angle) approach it seems. Shame no sound.
259 Someone83 : That was due to poor de-icing which led to ice from the wings getting sucked into the engines after take off resulting in th eloss of both engines
260 Post contains images Argonaut : Coupled with (beforehand) a sudden headwind that increases airspeed without warning, thereby prompting a power-reduction, and (immediately afterwards
261 Spacecadet : It was reported long before the post I was quoting. Maybe you just missed it, but it's among the first batch of replies here.
262 Ferengi80 : I'm going with the windshear theory for this one. I remember shortly before hearing about the incident the weather was horrendous. Okay, I'm in the No
263 DUSdude : BBC reports: An airport worker told the BBC the pilot on the Boeing 777 had said he had lost all power, and had been forced to glide the plane in to l
264 SXDFC : A British Airways Boeing 777 aircraft has been involved in an incident today at Heathrow airport. The aircraft was operating as flight BA38 from Beij
265 RJdxer : Was any windshear forecast? Reported? I'm sure that LHR has windshear detectors, did the tower issue any windshear alerts? 1st you have to establish
266 Voodoo : Can't find that. Any link?
267 TristarSteve : Well perhaps they had a flooding galley, same as QF 744
268 OA260 : Youd be surprised the same old faces that turn up on anything to do with LHR!!! When i lived there I used to have them knocking on my door . --------
269 TepidHalibut : I suspect that you mean the Air Transat A330 event of Aug 2001. Big news at the time, but overtaken by bigger events the following month. Maybe I'm j
270 E195 : just come back from the police station and AAIB etc was at the spot and got pictures of the whole thing, when i can post them i will! PS: on itv news
271 Tdscanuck : Correct. The whole MLG system is behind the rear spar. I'm not sure about FADEC failure...each engine has its own FADEC. Simulatenous failure would m
272 Spacecadet : But the sudden tailwind - which is the part that causes the stall - *does* come with a warning. Pilots on landing don't look at the sudden increase i
273 Singapore_Air : The video in question is broadcast on BBC NEWS 24 live. Maybe the next opportunity to view it is to stream BBC NEWS 24 at 2100GMT?
274 JBirdAV8r : So you're saying your conjecture is uninformed lay opinion. You would be correct (if that's what you are saying). I don't understand why you are reje
275 MEA-707 : The wide differences of accident rate histories of airlines unfortunately make it more likely a 777 accident will happen to PIA, Egyptair, Kenya Airw
276 Post contains links Srbmod : Please continue the discussion here: BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 3 (by Srbmod Jan 17 2008 in Civil Aviation)
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