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BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 3  
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61666 times:

Continuing from this thread BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 2 (by Pe@rson Jan 17 2008 in Civil Aviation)

And save the childish and just plain silly remarks for Non-Av.

259 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61836 times:

CNN has an online video with an "expert" saying the damage on the rear of the left wing is from the engine because that is where it is located. Most trusted name in news my a$$...

User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61728 times:

It has been said on CNN that "the incident", whatever it was, happened approx. a mile away from the airport at an altitude of 400ft (if I understood this annoying Mr. R.Q. correctly - who, however, at least appears to have basic understanding of the things he is talking about).

User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61619 times:

A few questions, what is the gliderate for such light loaded B772? Would the crew place the passengers so the emergency exists are empty when only 149 passenger onboard. If it been fully loaded would it affect the gliderate a lot?

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27000 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61484 times:

One guy said he noticed the A/C from a mile away and knew something was wrong as it was coming in SW. It was then that he started to watch it. He was also interested as he is a pilot.

User currently offlineSQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1451 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61395 times:

I tell you what happened


Speculation ON

During the flight there was more fuel burned than expected.
As a result the crew decided to continue to their destination LHR knowing they would approach LHR with less than Alt Fuel+ Final Reserve (30min Hldg in 1500ft above Alternate elev)
Thats a 100% legal procedure regarding weather, rwy and delay situation inbound LHR at this time.
The aircraft being loaded less than 50% means amount for Alternate Fuel maybe LGW or BHX is low, so is the amount for Final reserve fuel.
Result was a very light fuel load during approach. Using max flap setting increased the pitch attiitude to an level were the fuel pumps become unable do supply sufficent fuel to the enginge resulting in a double flame out on short final an a complete loss of electricity.
On the Airbus we have procedures saying that when low on fuel do not use full flaps for landing, due to a higher pitch

I'm no B777 expert but i would guess thee is a similar Boeing recommendation/ procedure.
The pilots maybe forgot this, simply ignored it or haven' t been aware of the danger they were in.
I think I'm pretty close!!!

Speculation OFF


User currently offlineAirbusA346 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 7437 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61327 times:

The NIMBY is back on BBC News 24.

He says that there should be no more expansion.

Tom.



Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
User currently offlineSmcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61314 times:



Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
CNN has an online video with an "expert" saying the damage on the rear of the left wing is from the engine because that is where it is located. Most trusted name in news my a$$...

I know thats pretty funny when they put these "experts" on and they screw up that badly.



Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
User currently offlineDUSdude From United States of America, joined May 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61235 times:



Quoting SQ325 (Reply 5):
Result was a very light fuel load during approach. Using max flap setting increased the pitch attiitude to an level were the fuel pumps become unable do supply sufficent fuel to the enginge resulting in a double flame out on short final an a complete loss of electricity.

Except that with nearly empty tanks and a light pax load the AOA would have been rather very shallow.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61374 times:

I think my concerns at the moment are for our A.net colleague, BA777ER236. I hope he wasn't involved.  crossfingers 

As for the earlier comments about lack of fuel. Fuel starvation, for some unexplanined reason, I can go with (though I've no reason to prefer that option). The crew knowing they were low on fuel but chancing it anyway, I just can't see happening at BA... I mean, no way.

[Edited 2008-01-17 12:50:18]

User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 61003 times:



Quoting SQ325 (Reply 5):
Using max flap setting increased the pitch attiitude to an level were the fuel pumps become unable do supply sufficent fuel

Every airplane I have ever flown has a lower pitch angle if you go to max landing flaps.


User currently offlineSQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1451 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 60998 times:

@ DUSdude

that could be right maybe you have some details regarding Trim changes on the B777!
I would explain the high AOA as the successful attempt to reach the Airport and stay clear of housing and parking lots on short final.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12567 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 60906 times:
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On the BBC evening news they said there was more than the required minimum fuel on board. I don't know how they would know this.


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 60879 times:

Quoting DUSdude (Reply 8):
Except that with nearly empty tanks and a light pax load the AOA would have been rather very shallow.

AOA does not = pitch attitude.

Edit to add: I see what you're trying to say, but your wording is incorrect.

[Edited 2008-01-17 12:52:12]


I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 60894 times:

On MSNBC, they recently reported that the USA's NTSB is sending investigators to this accident. I wonder if this is to assist the UK authorities, or more that it was the first 777 major crash and want to see it for their education about this model a/c.
It may be too soon, but has BA considered doing a short term lease of an aircraft to cover the loss of this a/c?


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27000 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 60765 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 9):
I think my concerns at the moment are for our A.net colleague, BA777ER236. I hope he wasn't involved.

Well lucky everyone got out ok and the passengers being interviewed seemed to be calm and smiling telling their story so I dont think anything more than a bit of shock would be felt. The passengers being interviewed all said the crew calmly and professionally cleared the A/C.

What normally happens to crew in such a case?? Do they get sick leave or something similar???


User currently offlineE195 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 60896 times:
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having see the whole thing happen from myrtle ave, the 777 did come in at a very odd angle.
I could see the belly clearly and have a few pictures showing this.

He was very low, then just after the road hit the grass with the landing gear ripping off and a very dull thud, sort of bellyflopping on the ground. Very proffessionally landed with the aircraft staying in one main piece

Then ran across the road (in traffic) to get the rest and see it coming to a stop.

Very scary stuff



Nikon D90 & D50 Sigma 70-300mm, 50-500 mm Lens :) oh yea Baby!
User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 60661 times:

Heathrow movements seem to be pretty much back to normal.

As you would expect:

Departures off 27L (the "incident" runway)
Arrivals on 27R



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,(..51 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineDUSdude From United States of America, joined May 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 60543 times:



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 13):
AOA does not = pitch attitude.

Edit to add: I see what you're trying to say, but your wording is incorrect.

Fair enough. Sorry for the confusion resulting from the brevity of my post. But shallow AOA during descent should result in fairly low pitch attitude. Again, I would take all the eyewitness reports about pitch attitude with an industrial size grain of salt. Some were even confusing bank with pitch. So they are rather useless.


User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 60446 times:



Quoting E195 (Reply 16):
having see the whole thing happen from myrtle ave, the 777 did come in at a very odd angle.
I could see the belly clearly and have a few pictures showing this.

He was very low, then just after the road hit the grass with the landing gear ripping off and a very dull thud, sort of bellyflopping on the ground. Very proffessionally landed with the aircraft staying in one main piece

Then ran across the road (in traffic) to get the rest and see it coming to a stop.

Very scary stuff

Can you verify if the engines were running or not? Were they making a sound or was the plane silent?


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 60421 times:



Quoting SQ325 (Reply 5):
During the flight there was more fuel burned than expected.

Normal.

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 5):
As a result the crew decided to continue to their destination LHR knowing they would approach LHR with less than Alt Fuel+ Final Reserve (30min Hldg in 1500ft above Alternate elev)

Continuing on upon reaching minimum fuel is safe and legal depending on the amount of variation from the computerized flight plan. Continuing on when you know you will land with emergency fuel, unless you are within sight of the airport is also legal, but definitely not safe and not something most pilots will do.

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 5):
Thats a 100% legal procedure regarding weather, rwy and delay situation inbound LHR at this time.

Again, legal and safe are not necessarily synonymous with each other.

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 5):
Using max flap setting increased the pitch attiitude to an level were the fuel pumps become unable do supply sufficent fuel to the enginge resulting in a double flame out on short final an a complete loss of electricity.

There are 3 fuel pumps, 2 electric and 1 suction in the tanks. To uncovering all three in a standard approach would be almost impossible. No pilot is going to let his fuel level get that low while passing by perfectly good airports to land at.

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 5):
I think I'm pretty close!!!

Maybe for a GA pilot but a 20 year BA pilot flying Beijing/London, probably not going to happen.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27000 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 60432 times:



Quoting E195 (Reply 16):
having see the whole thing happen from myrtle ave, the 777 did come in at a very odd angle.
I could see the belly clearly and have a few pictures showing this.

Will be interesting to see your photos. Are you allowed to post or do youhave to wait ??? I presume the police interviewed you???


User currently offlineDUSdude From United States of America, joined May 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 60307 times:



Quoting E195 (Reply 16):
having see the whole thing happen from myrtle ave, the 777 did come in at a very odd angle.
I could see the belly clearly and have a few pictures showing this.

What angle was "odd"? Approach, pitch, bank? What was odd about it? Can you post the pictures?


User currently offlineE195 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 60354 times:
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Quoting DUSdude (Reply 18):
Again, I would take all the eyewitness reports about pitch attitude with an industrial size grain of salt. Some were even confusing bank with pitch

as soon as i have the pictures back from the police and aaib ill show u what i mean.
it was deffo nose up tail down when i saw it.



Nikon D90 & D50 Sigma 70-300mm, 50-500 mm Lens :) oh yea Baby!
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 60292 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
On MSNBC, they recently reported that the USA's NTSB is sending investigators to this accident. I wonder if this is to assist the UK authorities, or more that it was the first 777 major crash and want to see it for their education about this model a/c.

I would definitely say the latter. I'm sure the UK authorities are well equipped to handle the investigation on their own. But typically the NTSB requests to get involved when it's a major type flown in the US and it's the first crash of its kind.

Quoting E195 (Reply 16):
having see the whole thing happen from myrtle ave, the 777 did come in at a very odd angle.
I could see the belly clearly and have a few pictures showing this.

It sounds like a stall in any case. Question is why such a high AOA? A pilot's going to know that a high AOA is not going to gain him anything other than a stall. I don't get it.

A high AOA does seem like it would support the wind shear theory more than the fuel exhaustion theory, but it still seems pretty unlikely in either case. In both cases what you want is speed before altitude. But I would think any pilot who was gliding in would know that pulling up with no power is basically suicidal, whereas if he did have power, he at least might think he could power out of it.

There was a quote on CNN that said the pilot told investigators he "didn't have power available" when he needed it. That's not the same as saying "the power went out" as an airport worker has said he was told. One or the other misunderstood; the question is which statement is right.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
25 Post contains images David L : Of course, but that doesn't mean it was "no big deal". For the crew, that, at the very least, has to have been a Very Bad Day at the Office - not som
26 Post contains links Singapore_Air : If you want to watch that amateur video footage of the plane you better stream BBC news now. http://news.bbc.co.uk
27 Tdscanuck : Double flameout doesn't lead to loss of electricity. That's why you have a RAT and battery. Standard procedure when it's a US OEM involved (ICAO Anne
28 474218 : Then you have never flown on an L-1011. The DLC system keeps the pitch attitude constant while on approach.
29 E195 : The engines were not making as much a noise as a normal 777 landing, so not sure if they were spooled down or what. The pictures (card) has been take
30 Gordonroxburgh : Is that a smell of brown stuff?
31 RB211TriStar : Providing there's enough time to deploy the RAT. The batteries on the other hand should be a nearly instantaneous bus switch.
32 OA260 : Arr no of course not . If it was me I would still be shaking. It really was a near major disaster. I keep looking at the TV and thinking its amazing
33 SQ325 : On the A320 where the "old" RAT is installed, this one doesn't work with Gear down or at speeds below m140kts
34 E195 : shame aint it, i will post all when i get them back. reason i cant post is incase it becomes a criminal investigation.
35 OA260 : So did the police approach you or did you volunteer the info?? Just wondering if they saw you taking pics and approached you . Always interesting to
36 DUSdude : BBC claims the airline denies the aircraft was low on fuel.
37 Gordonroxburgh : OK mate, I'll take that back, but remember these were you pictures, the authorities has no right to prevent you using, unles for example it was a mat
38 RedFlyer : I think it's instinctive when nothing else is going your way. I seem to recall when Concorde went down back in 2000, in the last moments the pilot ha
39 BrianDromey : I think standard procedure is investigator from the country the accident took place in, the country the airline holds its AOC in and the country of m
40 Amciver : Is this the first major at LHR and the first major crash for BA?
41 Sean377 : Nope, a BA Trident crashed on departure from LHR some years back
42 OA260 : A guy being interviewed now said the Auxillary power unit was turned on before landing to give extra power and that the pilot put the landing gear dow
43 Filton216 : Does anyone know how long the plane will be left at the end of the runway and how they will take it away? Filton216
44 Post contains links Gordonroxburgh : First Major LHR incident since G-VSKY (A340-200) in 1997, which blocked the South runway with a partially depolyed gear leg If you go back a fair few
45 Post contains links Alessandro : Another source of the LHR accidents, http://aviation-safety.net/database/airport/airport.php?id=LHR
46 LH498 : Don't forget it's a "Made in USA" aircraft too. Perhaps trying to avoid crashing into houses and trying desperately to get to an open field/LHR.
47 Post contains links Alessandro : http://aviation-safety.net/database/airport/airport.php?id=LHR
48 Iwok : There seems to be a lot of speculation from fuel starvation, to RATS being employed, to running out of fuel to an uncontrolled approach. We know nothi
49 Post contains links Kaitak : This report from Flight Intl confirms that the APU was activated (does this involve the use of the RAT?) ... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...77
50 Post contains images E195 : No problem, sorry if i was sharp tongued, still not sure how to feel after seeing it all This is true, however i had no way of copying them myself -
51 Zeke : AFAIK, on the 777 the APU automatically starts with a dual engine power loss.
52 E195 : I have to confess, i had no idea what to do, and spoke to a traffic unit and they said if i could go to the station it would be good as would help al
53 OA260 : Yeah I do wonder if they will be handed back or not . He may just have some vital photos that they want to keep for any investigation and keep them p
54 Bwohlgemuth : I think there would be much less speculation, if there was more coming out of the fog at LHW. We have heard weather, bird strikes (which to me seems t
55 TristarSteve : BOAC B707 crashed after landing on 05, which is only a couple hundred yards from here 1967.
56 Ncfc99 : Oh come on, give the guy a break. Had it have been me photographing and witnessing the crash and the police had asked me for the photographs to assis
57 Threepoint : According to the Flight Global article in reply 49, the flaps were set at 20 degrees and the weather was relatively benign.
58 Baw716 : The more I hear, the more I think there was a catastrophic failure on board the aircraft just before touchdown. How long before touchdown we won't kno
59 CodyKDiamond : When will the decision (although obvious) be made by the insurance companies whether it will return to flying or be W/O?
60 E195 : Thank you, i did try though, but every unit and officer that could be was out so there for they had no way of doing me a copy.... i even think a bunc
61 D L X : MSNBC reports that investigators know it was a double-engine failure.
62 Spacecadet : The point is pilots are trained, and every pilot knows that a high AOA at low speed with no power is going to actually get you *less* distance, not m
63 Post contains images Strudders : He did exactly as I would hope anybody else would do in his position and Well done for doing so. Best Regards Struds
64 Mirrodie : I've read up on part I and II but can someone please post an aerial shot: Im curious, how far from the GREENMAN PUB did this plane come down? Thats my
65 OA260 : Yeah I hope they help them. Keep us updated when you get them back. Your second pic isnt bad at all. Certainly you can see the landing gear ripped of
66 BoeingOnFinal : Just to make it crystal clear, the police have no right to impose on a crash site at all, and passengers and crew have the right to ignore any law of
67 Strudders : Not nearly as close as it did to dropping on the BP garage on the A30! Best Regards Struds
68 Tom in NO : IIRC, TACA was the first successful landing of a twin-engine commercial jet aircraft, at some place other than an airport, without casualties of any
69 Gordonroxburgh : Yes right at the end my friend. I'm sure Jules (landlady) will have been feeding TV crews all day
70 E195 : Which is why ive just called and made sure the aaib duty officer of the crash is aware of the pictures. I dont live in LHR i actually live in BOH so
71 Diamond : And in Sweden, they're reporting that it was an electronics failure. All these news resources want to be the first to solve the mystery, it seems. In
72 RJAF : When the cost of repair is determined. If the repair costs exceed 75% (or depending on the policy) of its insured value, then insurers will declare i
73 2H4 : Let's be careful not to confuse AOA with deck angle. So far, it appears the two terms are being used interchangeably. Deck angle is a visual term tha
74 Voodoo : It may have been shortly before touch down but maybe not 'immedietly'. One credible witness seems to have been a GA pilot who was drawn to the fact t
75 Post contains images Speedbird2779 : Remember the Supernumerary First Officer (3rd pilot) is also likely to be on the flight deck for TO & landing. For a "belt and braces" job they may w
76 OA260 : Yeah the number of things under that approach doesnt bare thinking about !!! From Hounslow all the way in over all those houses and even my old schoo
77 Bravo1Six : To add to that, the manufacturer has no "right" to be involved in an investigation, but rather accompanies the investigators from its own country. Th
78 Strudders : Please They have every right under the UK law. The Police (The Law) have SOP as well as the Airport Authorities during times of incident and emergenc
79 Bucky707 : Fair enough. I haven't flown the 1011. But my airline had a bunch of them and I know a bunch of guys who have flown them. The DLC keeps the pitch att
80 RJdxer : The crew would normally turn on the APU prior to landing. Correct. That makes everything thereafter suspect.
81 Singapore_Air : Exclusive video on ITV1 now of people evacuating!
82 Post contains images Aussieindc :
83 Checksixx : Man...anyone got a link to this supposed amature footage showing the low approach?? Can't find anything like that on BBC or anywhere else for that mat
84 OA260 : Another thing that I wonder if the water logged ground helped to slow the A/C down on landing when the landing gear hit it or would this not make a di
85 Strudders : You are very right This is looking more and more like a very near thing. It would appear that the Crew did an amazing thing today. I for one am thank
86 Khobar : Is this the same GA pilot who was drawn to look towards the aircraft because it was making MORE noise than usual?
87 Voodoo : No this guy was inside a terminal looking out at approaching a/c.
88 Bond007 : Really, I'm sure they did 110%, but I'm always amazed at these kind of comments. We don't know what the crew did anymore than we know what caused the
89 Litz : Don't forget, as has been pointed out previously in this thread ... the slower your airspeed, the less effective the RAT is. Out of curiosity, how lo
90 OA260 : Correct. The UK police are there to answer all emergencies and have the right to seal off and/or give orders. I think the fire service do have a slig
91 Post contains images B777ER : Please stop with mindless, useless speculation. Ahh..that will be about a year or more. Should have made copies. Why not? You really think 15-20 minu
92 Gordonroxburgh : There was a mobile phone clip of a plane arriving over Hatton Cross, but from someone who has stood there before, this plane looked at pretty normal
93 Jawed : The BBC interview video with passengers from this flight was useless. The BBC guy kept asking: "Did anyone panic?" "Did you panic?" "When people left
94 Myt332 : And with that new menu of hers I bet she was making a killing, it is rather nice! I actually just saw her Sunday just gone. It's always surprising th
95 Argonaut : More than "some" years...it was in 1972! The airline was actually not BA, but one of its predecessors, BEA. AFAIK, the only BA crash was the Trident
96 Post contains links 747fan : While it is indeed rather sad that it looks like the first 777 hull loss and write-off (due to accident, as one of Varig's birds was scrapped I believ
97 Missourifarmer : Part of the Law Enforcement Officer's job is not only to aid in the rescue, first aid or well being of the survivors of any catastrophe (wether it be
98 Post contains images BoeingOnFinal : Not at all . In fact I'm extremely grateful of the job they do. The statement I made is a recommendation from the National Transportation Safety Boar
99 PHLwok : I don't think this can be stated enough. The actions of the pilots to get the plane into a position where this was so survivable, and what I presume
100 Singapore_Air : The Captain of BA38 was Captain Peter Burkill, 43 years old.
101 Cmoltay : The VHF Localizer and UHF Glide Scope transmitters would be located offset from the centerline... Only the localizer antenna would be on the centerli
102 Post contains links Zeke : Glad to see the NTSB is on the ball....they corrected this "The National Transportation Safety Board has dispatched a team of investigators to assist
103 Post contains images RJ111 : I just travelled down to LHR to see the crash. If you want to go and have a look i suggest you get off at Hatton Cross and walk down the A30 a little
104 Bjcc : Quote: "Just to make it crystal clear, the police have no right to impose on a crash site at all, and passengers and crew have the right to ignore any
105 Vfw614 : Looking at some of the papers, snippets are: - "Just 20 seconds from landing, Captain Peter Burkill suddenly found he had no power." - "Last night the
106 JAM747 : I am glad that you were able to get these pictures. I am sure the pictures will of some help and I hope that people will appreciate that airplane spo
107 Theginge : The Police I think take control of the crash site until the AAIB arrive, do you not think the police at LHR are trained for this sort of thing and kn
108 Scotland1979 : Will British Grass grow back again? Oh, Please - yes, British Grass will grow back G-YMMM - will it fly again? A good question - we will have to wait
109 DC8FanJet : I did find it impressive that considering how hard the impact had to be to shear the main gear off, and cause the damage to the wings and engines, tha
110 Strudders : Please explain "these kind of comments" The "Crew" all 16, include the not only the Pilots but also the Cabin Crew By implying "these kind of comment
111 Post contains links SXDFC : I created a " photo album" version of events of BA 038 I hope you like it! http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?album=13701 I did the best I c
112 2H4 : I was thinking the same thing. No noticeable wrinkles in the fuselage. I wonder if any exist and simply aren't visible in the photos presently availa
113 Wrighbrothers : Personally, while I'm glad this was something not as serious as it could have been, I admit that I get frustrated with the press and how they're repor
114 Threepoint : We don't know of the gear sheared due to a high impact with an excessive vertical speed, or because of the resistance encountered when sliding throug
115 VC-10 : Hero - a much over used word. It's not as if the crew had any choice in what actions to take. The Pilots had to get it down to save their own lives a
116 LN-KGL : And the NTSB could have continued to improve their message as long as the correct name for LHR is London Heathrow Airport.
117 Standby87 : Luck. Fate? 2 hours later, that 777 would have been landing on 27R. It would have ploughed through the cabin-crew carpark, over the perimeter road and
118 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : There have been several other accidents/incidents at LHR over the years, including a few involving BA predecessor BEA. The following resulted in the
119 Strudders : Fair Comment Best Regards Struds
120 Platinumfoota : Here is a video that allows your to see the aircraft and the distance traveled when it first hit the ground
121 Travelin man : Wasn't it a BA aircraft that chose to fly a 744 LAX-LHR on 3 engines after one failed shortly after take-off, only to have to land at MAN due to lack
122 RJ111 : It would probably have produced the same outcome. There is similar clearance on both runways.
123 Gh123 : Heathrow International Airport - he he. You know what the American's are like. Everything has to be dramatised or pumped up somehow.
124 Post contains links ACW367 : The AAIB will have the authority to authorise the moving of the jet, once they have done initial analysis in situ. They can call on the military Join
125 Post contains images 2H4 : Careful with those remarks....you're likely to get sued. 2H4
126 Post contains links SXDFC : http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=709579 Heres another picture of the fusalage , it looks like theres a hole as well as several dents in her
127 Gordonroxburgh : BA has its own specialist recovery teams, they all the kit that would every be needed such as pallets of sleepers, air bags, jacks etc...
128 Ncfc99 : No I don't think it would cause the ivestigation to stall, but I have enough respect for the law enforcement agencies that I wouldn't hinder them in
129 Post contains links and images Powercube : Well, it seems we can forget all the passenger accounts given by "Jason" http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=368442
130 Theginge : Nothing to do with it!!!
131 Post contains images BA777ER236 : Thanks for your concern but it wasn't me - thank heavens! Very silly speculation and there is no way that the crew would have ignored the SOPs - Stan
132 ACW367 : All four runways - 9L&R have displaced thresholds to give similar distances between boundary fence and piano keys. Is there an ICAO standard undersho
133 Post contains images VC-10 : You could have got your copies done at Tesco - Dukes Green, 3 mins drive away
134 Travelin man : In the context of the statement "BA never takes risks", yes it does. Again, not saying it had anything to do with this situation, but I was respondin
135 Post contains links NAV20 : Pretty comprehensvie report from Australian Newsradio - worth clicking on 'Audio,' several eyewitness reports. Generally, loss of engine power (too la
136 Post contains images David L : That 744 crew did not "chance it" on low fuel. When they thought they wouldn't be able to land at LHR with the legal minimum fuel remaining they chos
137 Standby87 : I worked there 13 years! But you and RJ111 are quite correct. Maybe it's cos I used to take that long walk down to the Runway restaurant that made me
138 Highlander0 : Tell the NIMBYs to **** off. [: Someone in thread #1 stated that it looked like the landing gear was sheared/buggered when it came in contact with th
139 Post contains images EMA747 : So normally us aviation enthusiasts are given a rough time by police/security but when they need some pics etc they are all to pleased someone was th
140 Post contains links TexL1649 : I have a sneaking suspicion that the loss of power might have had something to do with this; "— It was manufactured in May 2001 and went through rou
141 PYP757 : I read the following 'eyewitness' statement on the BBC: "There's no drama really. Nobody is really worried about the airport. You've just got to assum
142 Post contains images BA777ER236 : This has been extensively covered before and I am not going to enter another discussion about the 'rights and wrongs' of flying long distances on 3 e
143 Post contains images David L : Phew! Incidentally, my "no way" comment was meant along the lines of "I find it extremely hard to believe", not that it could absolutely never happen
144 Symphonik : The sheer ignorance displayed in this thread boggles me. Why do people feel the need to run their mouth about things they know nothing about? This ent
145 NAV20 : E195, you did the right thing - but I would strongly advise that you take immediate steps to protect your position - up to and including getting a la
146 RJdxer : Wouldn't that be consistant with one engine shuting down and the pilot correcting for asymetry? I'm pretty sure ours turn on the APU during the appro
147 Post contains images BoeingOnFinal : Ignore was a completely useless term from my side, I apologize. You are required by the authority of which you operate under, as a crew, to put forwa
148 Post contains images Halls120 : Of course they do. It would be lunacy for them to claim otherwise. As long as there is fuel to run it, of course.
149 Travelin man : Actually I was implying that BA sometimes takes risks (such as flying on 3 engines vs. 4). I was not saying that the fuel thing was a risk. Again, it
150 Singapore_Air : Then that would indicate there was fuel if it appears (at least to David Learmont, Flight International) that the APU was running. (speculation)
151 Post contains images BA777ER236 : I would check that if I were you. In BA, if we shut down an engine on taxi in, there is no requirement to run the APU because there are 2 generators
152 Halls120 : My point exactly. All we have to go on so far is speculation as to the cause of the accident.
153 StarGoldLHR : it's 0018 and i'm still hearing planes turn to land over my head. What an unusual night, usually I goto bed around the time the last flights are circl
154 Sxmarbury33 : What about windshear/mini microburst leading to attempted go around leading to engine surges due to crosswind effect. The surging to account for repor
155 Post contains images BA777ER236 : Well, as I said, there was a lengthy debate on this issue on A.net and amongst the 'professionals' opinion was split as to whether this was risky or
156 Post contains links BOACVC10 : A longish article in the Times Online of UK, published a few minutes ago The great escape of Flight BA038 offers the viewpoint that the aircraft did i
157 Post contains images Barney Captain : And now this quote.. "Antonio De Crescenzo, 52, from Naples, said there was little warning that the plane was in difficulty. “We were coming in to l
158 Post contains images KELPkid : I don't know if this is an ICAO standard or not, but the FAA requires 1000 feet between the boundary fence and the runway threshhold for a runway wit
159 Post contains images BA777ER236 : Interesting point, but there was no reported windshear AFAIK and whilst The Trent or GE90 takes a while to spool up from idle, they would not have be
160 Queso : Reversers deploying as soon as they were armed?
161 Sxmarbury33 : Was there no significant weather in the area? I havent looked into the weather I just think the idea of fuel starvation within the pilots control is s
162 Boeing7E7 : The hole you're looking at is likely from a spear on the ARFF truck they use to inject the fuselage with foam. It's about the right size.
163 OPNLguy : Sorry, but at this stage of the investigation, NOTHING is rulled out until the AAIB SAYS it's ruled out. Yes, I do. If you think airline pilots are s
164 Sxmarbury33 : I realize that commercial airline pilots arent immune from gettheritis but there is a big difference between gettheritis and fuel starvation. If all s
165 Halls120 : Excellent post. My brother, a DL 767 pilot, said essentially the same thing to me this afternoon. Wait for the investigation, discount initial report
166 StarGoldLHR : I wonder if there was some electrical short out, or Breaker trip out failure ? Or maybe a circuit board got fried ? Usually when technology fails it's
167 Pizzaandplanes : In almost all major crashes, a series of events is what causes failure. Not just one specific variable. It's too early to tell the cause of this cras
168 Aerobalance : I'm troubled with the multiple witnesses, both inside and outside the plane, reporting 'roaring engines' sounds. It just doesn't fly in the face of an
169 OPNLguy : If the get-there-itis involves reality-evasion and self-deceptive behaviors ("I think we can make it all the way and not costing the company big buck
170 Pihero : I quote again the forecast for the british Isles : "Storm Forecast Valid: Thu 17 Jan 2008 03:00 to Fri 18 Jan 2008 06:00 UTC Issued: Wed 16 Jan 2008
171 AFGMEL : Yes, could or could not be significant. If you're skidding along you might be pumping the tail to try and correct, or perhaps they just pushed it aft
172 LASOctoberB6 : So....um, where is the 772 now?
173 Kellmark : There have been a series of airline accidents and incidents where "professional" pilots got themselves into trouble with fuel starvation. Hapag Lloyd
174 Tozairport : Loss of both engine generators would not cause the engines to fail. Loss of both engines would cause the aircraft to lose most of it's avionics and s
175 Post contains images Starlionblue : One sure misses a lot from living in the wrong time zone. Assuming it has fuel. Ah the press. Pilots are always "wrestling to regain control". Note th
176 OPNLguy : I would imagine it's exactly where it came to rest. The AAIB will probably need at least a day or two on-site to investigate, and then the recovery/r
177 777fan : Suffice to say, this is a shame but at the same time, it's truly an amazing event. This incident is a testament to the incredible engineering in which
178 JetMech : IIRC, most modern FADEC equipped engines have a dedicated alternator on the external gearbox which is used solely to generate power for the FADEC / F
179 StarGoldLHR : I would guess this aircraft will be moved in pieces, the front appears on it's wheels but the rear is not (so the fuselage is probably bucked badly),
180 Viscount724 : In addition to those mentioned, there was also the UA DC-8-61 that crashed approaching PDX in 1978 after running out of fuel while the crew was preoc
181 Kaitak744 : That long? The aircraft is currently blocking the south runway. Heathrow is going to be a mess with only one runway for 2-3 days. The plane is at the
182 Starlionblue : Those guys really screwed up by the numbers. Bad, bad CRM and too focused on the problem to remember rule 1: "Aviate". Similar in some ways to that L
183 LHR27C : No it isn't, 27L was operating intersection departures since the middle of the afternoon. LHR is NOT on single runway config.[Edited 2008-01-17 18:19
184 Ebs757 : Its just amazing how passenger after passenger recall it as a rough landing until the oxygen masks dropped. Kudos to the BA crew
185 Planemaker : The majority of the noise of an aircraft on final approach is generated by the wheels and flaps which can quite easily be mistaken for a 'roaring eng
186 Post contains images Leezyjet : It was an A340-300. Probably a little over 1/2 mile as the crow (or 777) flies, so about 5-10 seconds flight time. I was at TGM today a couple of hou
187 Aerobalance : Yes, I'm aware of this, thank you. Like I said, the one witness in the a/c described engines roaring - I don't think that would be airframe noise unl
188 Micstatic : I agree they are loud, but I don't think that's exactly true. Engines are running at a higher fan speed than most people realize on approach.
189 Johnclipper : Isn't this the same airline that flew a B747 on three engines from LA to London?!?
190 Post contains images KELPkid : Any word on destroyed airport property? I'd imagine severe casualties have been inflicted to the approach lighting system for the runway, at least...
191 JER757 : OK... I'm a bit late posting on all this, only just had the chance too. But from all of us, no matter what ever happened to the a/c, whatever went wro
192 DUSdude : According to prior reports in this thread, the pilot deployed the gear very late - which would be normal if he were gliding, in order to minimize dra
193 Etops1 : this is my simulation of what happened today in heathrow. it's not perfect because the landing did collapse and of course there was no building in the
194 Dc863 : Either an engine went into reverse or the 777 ran out of fuel.
195 Acabgd : I'll go with one of the other posters (a single one at that!) who said it looks like a complete software failure, causing engine and possibly electro
196 Gh123 : And Cheers to you! A great post, very well put.
197 Dc863 : Two accidents resulting in very high descent rates at the last moment involved an AC DC-8 and an Alitalia DC-8. But both of these were the flight crew
198 Warren747sp : Maybe there is contamination in the Chinese fuel which they loaded in Beijing which finally overwhelmed the fuel filters. Airliners flying out of Chin
199 Dc863 : I recall a Pan Am pilot say just that over 25 years ago.
200 Post contains images Leezyjet : Read the thread dude, this has been asked and answered all ready further up. Well thats ok then, now we know what happened, lets tell the AAIB to go
201 Dc863 : Relax pal. Yes I know what would happen to an aircraft if an engine went into reverse. A Lauda 767 demonstrated that in '91 but it did so at altitude
202 Fsnuffer : I don't think it was a complete software failure but if it is I would hate to see the impact on the 787 certification program. The hit would be huge!
203 Post contains links Philipkk : Finally, this turned up on youtube. I guess this is the amateur video everybody's been talking about. You can see the very high AoA. I did a quick sea
204 Halls120 : Reported, yes. Confirmed, no.
205 Spacecadet : True story: I was on that same flight the day before, in first class. All the fatalities were in first class. If I'd flown one day later... Thanks fo
206 Acabgd : Thanks for the video. Indeed, very high angle of attack. Hard to judge the speed from this short clip, but if the speed was any higher it would be ta
207 Starlionblue : As has repeatedly stated, that was not a crew error. As I said before, the crew probably did a great job. But it's also quite possible they created t
208 Revelation : The pilot would want to fly the plane at its best glide ratio (max L/D) to stretch the glide as long as possible, as opposed to flying the minimum de
209 AirTranTUS : Haven't seen this mentioned, but is the normal approach glidepath steep enough so that if an airplane loses all engines it can still make the runway?
210 Starlionblue : Not sure. Probably not though. I recall the BMI 737 crash. Lost both engines and plowed into an embankment well short of the runway. Also if engines
211 Zvezda : The only exception I can think of to the excellent point above is where nonfeasance by the police could result in loss of life.
212 AFGMEL : I shouldn't be answering this because I have only ever flown light aircraft, but I would doubt it - certainly not in a light aircraft. In dirty confi
213 Post contains links Zeke : Not really, I have done it in the sim a few times, always try to stay above glide path and approach speed to keep some additional energy up my sleeve
214 Starlionblue : I'm not a pilot either, but as AFGMEL says landings on the big iron are a bit different. In my uninformed reasoning big jets may be even more suscept
215 Boeingfan : No fatalities. Excellent BA training. Fuel starved engines? An excellent aircraft. A series of unfortunate events. Catastrophe averted. BA Cabin and F
216 Boeing7E7 : 600-feet (180m) for undershoots. The standard RSA off the end is 1,000-feet (300m).[Edited 2008-01-17 20:01:39]
217 JBirdAV8r : A few posts have mentioned the idea of fuel starvation being "utterly ridiculous." My two cents on that: First of all, even though I offered speculati
218 RedFlyer : The cabin crew definitely earned their wings today, as evidenced by the quick and relatively safe evac of all on board. As for the flight crew, I'm b
219 Argonaut : What does this mean?
220 Aerobalance : Good possibility, thanks! Just watched the youtube video of the approach, what an extreme approach angle!
221 Dc863 : Speculation based on my own 24 years of knowledge of aviation accidents. I don't claim to exactly what happened but from what I've read so far the ca
222 Post contains links Zeke : The original advice was flawed, so is yours. Crew members should not be allowed near an accident site once the aircraft has been evacuated as the rol
223 OPNLguy : In a perfect world, yes, but it's never a perfect world. In any large organization, there always seems to be a 1%-2% group that causes more than 1%-2
224 Post contains images HNLtrades118 : Reason prevails. Thank you! I'll wait for the official NTSB/AAIB report. Best wishes to all those involved. ~jon
225 2H4 : The outcome wouldn't be inherently limited to one scenario as you seem to be suggesting. Most likely, if a reverser came unlocked at 200-300 feet whi
226 Post contains images 747fan : On final approach, an engine's fan speed is typically around 50-60% N1; its usually at least 50 and it varies, as any spotter on here can tell you th
227 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Descending, I don't know, but while ascending, this could happen: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19961031-0 I've read all 3 thread
228 AirTranTUS : Thanks for the responses. I thought the same thing but wanted to be sure.
229 MakeMinesLAX : Also, a nice view of the spot where the front landing gear wound up.
230 Baron52ta : I don't know if you are aware but AAIB will not take copies as evidence you have to give the original and then you might get copies, same with the NT
231 Spacecadet : They *did* stall, I think that's pretty clear. The plane obviously was not flying when it hit the ground; it was falling forward. When you have that
232 Gh123 : I do not agree. At the altitutes we are talking about - instinct would have kicked in and the pilot would have though only about gettin the aircraft
233 Post contains links and images Rwessel : As near as I can tell, the nose gear is still in the usual place (under the nose), although it may be damaged/partially collapsed. The gear you see i
234 2H4 : I disagree. That's not completely clear at this point. The damage we've seen could have occurred with an unstalled wing. A stick pusher (or pilot inp
235 Coa747 : I think you mean fuel exhaustion. Fuel starvation and fuel exhaustion are not the same thing. When you run out of fuel that is exhaustion. Fuel starv
236 Starlionblue : Exciting time for the pilots? I don't know exactly. It's not clear at all, and it certainly isn't a stall by definition. A plane that is stalled can
237 Dc863 : Obviously an extremely hard landing either way however the fuselage came through without a wrinkle forward or aft of the wing (at least externally). S
238 Starlionblue : Not so obviously. It could have been a normal descent rate landing, but a dirt and grass surface is not too nice to most jetliners. We don't really k
239 Celestar : I wonder why there is no flame or signs of burning on this accident. Could you meant there isn't a lot of fuel left after a long flight from Beijing?
240 TristarSteve : The dedicated generator is the normal source of power for the Fadec. If this generator fails then aircraft power is used as a back up. When you do gr
241 Teme82 : Nope as said earlier :
242 LHRjc : Well BA are handing out free bags of chocolate and washing powder outside Monument Tube Station here in London this morning, advertising their Spring
243 TristarSteve : But the escape slide on Door 4L is being blown up in the air by the strong winds, the rudder is being blown in the same direction. When the power is
244 RebelDJ : Something that is bothering me about this is that the landing gear seems to have punctured the wing, and presumably the fuel tank. They were very luck
245 TristarSteve : Their is no sign that the landing gear punctured the fuel tanks. The Main Landing Gear is fitted in the wing behind the fuel tanks, and the fittings
246 Sxmarbury33 : Yes your right I meant fuel exhaustion Kellmark, for the sake of conversation im going to say that the A310, Sabb2000, and 707 are bad examples. The A
247 ChiefT : That is what you would expect. We were teached differently with the Hapag Lloyd A310 accident in Vienna. The burned more fuel due to a fault in the u
248 SQ325 : I could never exclude myself of getting into a situation were I react other than I learned or have been trained to. There has been more than one repo
249 RebelDJ : I realise that it is difficult to be conclusive, but I think that some images show that the upper surface of the tank seems to have been ruptured by
250 Beaucaire : Great post and sounds logic -but the PIC will have indications that he's short of fuel at least half an hour prior to landing. So that should have ig
251 Post contains links OyKIE : I could not fins this link in the thread, but if someone else posted this before me I do apologize. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/
252 HAWK21M : Fuel Starvation,But why. regds MEL
253 OA260 : I never had an issue at LHR since I was spotting since I was a kid upto now. I have taken photos and videos and the Police just drive by . ----------
254 JWMD123 : Can anyone tell me how many pax the BA 777 could hold. I see only 136 pax were on board. Would this indicate it had a LF of about 50%.
255 TristarSteve : The images at Flight Global show the Left u/c sticking straight up through the wing. The fuel tank is fwd of this. The fwd attachment of the MLG is i
256 Post contains links Starlionblue : Jet fuel is actually quite hard to ignite. Apart from the fuel tanks not rupturing, this was a pretty "gentle" event as such things go. To get igniti
257 Moo : There could be fuel in the tanks, but a high nose angle or a rapid acceleration could result in inability to pump that fuel and thus lead to fuel sta
258 VS773ER : Dunno about any of you but, personally, I feel the crew all deserve "medals as big as a frying pan"!?
259 Post contains links 777ER : BA B772 Crash Lands At LHR - Part 4 (by 777ER Jan 18 2008 in Civil Aviation)
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