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Near-Miss At EWR Due To ATC  
User currently offlinePlateMan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 923 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8275 times:

Didn't see this posted so....

A CO Express jet was landing at EWR and Long Island ATC gave the pilot the frequency for Teterboro, not Newark, so they could not contact the plane. Came within less then half the standard horizontal spacing and 600 vertical feet.

Link here: http://www.wnbc.com/news/15078728/detail.html?dl=headlineclick

I wonder if the passengers knew something was up. This is scary..the state of American ATC.

Brian


"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaAVL From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1893 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8260 times:



Quoting PlateMan (Thread starter):
A CO Express jet was landing at EWR and Long Island ATC gave the pilot the frequency for Teterboro, not Newark, so they could not contact the plane. Came within less then half the standard horizontal spacing and 600 vertical feet.

The pilot should have known what the Newark freq was, regardless of what ATC told him. You'd think the ERJ pilot would've noticed real quick that he wasn't on the Newark frequency.

Quoting PlateMan (Thread starter):
..the state of American ATC

...is, comparatively, extremely good.  Yeah sure



"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8259 times:



Quoting PlateMan (Thread starter):
Long Island ATC

I hate to nitpick, but there is no such thing. That would be NY TRACON.



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlinePYP757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8147 times:

Does this really qualify as a near-miss?

Both planes were landing at EWR. They were following each other, and never really got in a position where they could have collided. Yes, horizontal separation was only 1 mile and a quarter, less than half of the minimum separation allowed, so this is a worrying incident. But calling this a near-miss sounds a bit extreme to me. Just my opinion.


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6120 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8148 times:



Quoting PYP757 (Reply 3):
They were following each other, and never really got in a position where they could have collided. Yes, horizontal separation was only 1 mile and a quarter, less than half of the minimum separation allowed,

I can see the headline now: "ATC FAILURE PUTS PLANE 10 MINUTES FROM IMPACTING ANOTHER"



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8107 times:



Quoting PlateMan (Thread starter):
This is scary..the state of American ATC.

Spoken like another "expert" I suggest you fly other places in the world if you want to see scary!

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 3):
Does this really qualify as a near-miss?

No, it would not be a near miss. It would be classified as loss of seperation which was the result of an operational error by the controller. Not a very big deal.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21877 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8016 times:



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 2):
Quoting PlateMan (Thread starter):
Long Island ATC

I hate to nitpick, but there is no such thing. That would be NY TRACON.

Which, to be fair, is on Long Island.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8378 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7951 times:

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 1):
...is, comparatively, extremely good.

Extremely, huh? Alright, if you say so...

This one was a non-event, but it's really only a matter of time, the way things are going. Our controllers are the best in the world, but they've been fighting and uphill battle for years now.

[Edited 2008-01-17 18:46:47]


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineMark5388916 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7904 times:

Sounds like a deal, when a loss of separation occurred. Plus, the Newark Tower frequencies are printed on the charts just in case this happens. Anyone know when he was able to get onto the right frequency?

Mark



I Love ONT and SNA, the good So Cal Airports! URL Removed as required by mod
User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7854 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Which, to be fair, is on Long Island.

-Mir

Correct. IAD is in VA, but it is still called Washington Dulles.



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7835 times:



Quoting Mark5388916 (Reply 8):
Sounds like a deal, when a loss of separation occurred. Plus, the Newark Tower frequencies are printed on the charts just in case this happens. Anyone know when he was able to get onto the right frequency?

NO, it's not a big deal. Most pilots will have the next frequency pre-tuned in the VHF-1 comm head, but the controller gave him another freq. After all, there are frequency changes that aren't always published in the Jepps. There is a revision cycle to consider.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8378 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7785 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
NO, it's not a big deal.

He said a deal, and if they are treating it as an operational error as the article says, he may well be right. I wasn't there, though, so I'm not gunna go pinning blame. All's well that ends well, right?



This Website Censors Me
User currently onlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1250 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7773 times:



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 2):
Quoting PlateMan (Thread starter):
Long Island ATC

I hate to nitpick, but there is no such thing. That would be NY TRACON.

I hate to nitpick. That would be N90  Wink

Im curious how long it took TEB Local to ship him back to EWR.


User currently offlineBok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7749 times:



Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 12):
I hate to nitpick. That would be N90

Thanks for clearing that up!  Smile

The point of a web forum is to discuss and learn more about a particular subject. IMHO, we should therefore all be open to corrections (or, in another light, the opportunity to learn something new).



"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7724 times:



Quoting Mark5388916 (Reply 8):
Sounds like a deal



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):

NO, it's not a big deal

A "Deal" is controller jargon for an operational error.

Quoting PlateMan (Thread starter):
This is scary..the state of American ATC

What, exactly, are you saying?



"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlinePlateMan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7625 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 5):
Spoken like another "expert" I suggest you fly other places in the world if you want to see scary!

I am no expert. I know other countries are worse but at the same time, our ATC needs help IMO. Just look at all the incidents, the controllers themselves complaining, etc.

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Which, to be fair, is on Long Island.

Haha, thanks. At least I got it somewhat close.

Brian



"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
User currently offlinePlateMan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7619 times:

It was a serious incident, I think.

Video link: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...tion=news/investigators&id=5898330

From ABC7 NY:
"Anytime two aircraft are that close in proximity to each other, it's a dangerous situation just based upon the speed that the aircrafts are moving," air traffic controller Ray Adams said.



"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
User currently offlineMark5388916 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7598 times:



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 14):
A "Deal" is controller jargon for an operational error.

Thanks! I assumed everyone speaks jargon, my apology.

Quoting PlateMan (Reply 16):
From ABC7 NY:
"Anytime two aircraft are that close in proximity to each other, it's a dangerous situation just based upon the speed that the aircrafts are moving," air traffic controller Ray Adams said.

I agree to some extent, but they weren't heading towards each other as far as I can tell.

Mark



I Love ONT and SNA, the good So Cal Airports! URL Removed as required by mod
User currently offlineWestIndian425 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7598 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Which, to be fair, is on Long Island.

-Mir

Correct...it's in Islip, to be exact. Nice group of people.



God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7577 times:



Quoting WestIndian425 (Reply 18):
Correct...it's in Islip, to be exact. Nice group of people.

New York TRACON (N90) is in Westbury, NY. New York ARTCC (ZNY) is in Ronkonkoma, NY



"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5740 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7427 times:



Quoting WestIndian425 (Reply 18):
Correct...it's in Islip, to be exact. Nice group of people

What, this lot?




"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinePhelpsie87 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 498 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7402 times:



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
What, this lot?

Hmm, I wonder if this deal took place before or after "The Zone" and that "River Dance Mother F**ker" got in the fight....


Anyway, oops on the N90, but like others have said, the pilot should have known the frequency for EWR.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5740 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7396 times:



Quoting Phelpsie87 (Reply 21):
Hmm, I wonder if this deal took place before or after "The Zone" and that "River Dance Mother F**ker" got in the fight...

Nah, it was a shift change and Zone thought it'd be funny to tell Feather Boy that ExpressJet was a TEB arrival...



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineDeltaAVL From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1893 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7244 times:



Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
Extremely, huh? Alright, if you say so...

Yes, American ATC is extremely good, compared to many other countries around the world. You prove that assertion by stating...

Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
Our controllers are the best in the world

Indeed they are.  Wink



"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2846 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7234 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 4):
ATC FAILURE PUTS PLANE 10 MINUTES FROM IMPACTING ANOTHER

Yeah than the press has a bunch of "experts"on telling how bad this could have been.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
Extremely, huh? Alright, if you say so...

The state of the US ATC is good compared to other countries but with how many planes the system handles is too much. It isn't bad but it isn't good.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
25 DeltaAVL : The amount of planes the system handles isn't ATC's fault. Considering the unimaginable number of flights US ATC has to deal with each day, and with
26 Post contains links N62NA : This report: http://wcbstv.com/local/newark.airport.continental.2.632715.html paints a much different picture: As the planes came in for landings on W
27 DeltaAVL : A fully loaded ExpressJet ERJ is 50 pax max. Hundreds of passengers? Not quite.
28 Post contains images Mir : Not that Senator Schumer has ever let facts about the aviation industry get in the way of his speeches. -Mir
29 Post contains images FlyMeToTheMoon : I hear the Swiss ATC are pretty good!
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