Brick From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1572 posts, RR: 8 Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 19689 times:
I had a LIT-IAH flight on Continental Express which was operated by Chautauqua Airlines CRJ-200 this evening. The flight attendant was standing in the galley when I entered the boarding door. I looked in the flight deck and saw that the crew wasn't busy, so I asked the flight attendant if I could visit the flight crew.
"You wanna do what?" the flight attendant asked me.
"I'd like to visit the flight deck crew real quick" I replied.
"Do you have a badge?" she asked?
"A badge for what?" I said with a puzzled look.
"Do you have a badge for an airline?" she said.
"No" I replied.
"You have to be with the airline to go to the cockpit" she stated.
"Is this company policy?" I asked.
"It's the FAA rule"
"That's not true. There is no FAA rule against passengers visiting the flight deck while the aircraft is parked at the gate." I said.
The flight attended glares at me. "Let's ask the captain" I add.
"No we aren't. You can't" she said.
"So you are telling me that it's an FAA rule that I cannot visit the flight deck and I can't even ask the captain if it's okay?" I said.
"Yep" was the reply as the glare gets nastier.
"You're just making stuff up!" "I'm going to write Continental about this. Flight attendants shouldn't make rules up."
The flight attendant then flips out! She starts muttering a lot of things which I couldn't make out. She is agitated and her voice went way up. She then screams "You are getting off of my flight! What is your name?" I didn't say anything...I was too stunned at this point! "You're getting off! I'm not going to have this on my flight. What is your seat number?" She then turns and stomps up the jet bridge toward the gate agents. "4c!" I yell out of the aircraft toward her. I figure they can't kick me off over something like this.
I turn to take my seat. All of the passengers in the first 5 rows are staring at me. They probably assume that I said something threatening or inappropriate to the flight attendant given her very strong reaction (she was pretty loud too during all of this, especially right before she stomped off). I felt *really* embarrassed! About 3 minutes later the flight attendant stomps back on board and goes into the flight deck. I figure the gate agent probably told her she was full of it so she's now going to the captain. The captain apparently told her the same thing as she came out of the flight deck rolling her eyes. I noticed she then flipped her name badge around so her name wasn't visible as she was exiting the flight deck. She didn't say a word to me for the rest of the flight. She didn't even make eye contact with me. I think she knew she was wrong, but I got no apology. I just got a lot more stares during the flight from other passengers. It was the most uncomfortable I've been on board a flight in a very, very long time.
I was calm during all of this. My voice was low and calm, except for maybe a tone of disbelief toward then end. I did not act threatening in any way toward the flight attendant. She just flipped off the handle! It seems to me like she couldn't wait to "bounce" her first passenger (the FA looked like she hadn't been doing this for too long). This airline though caused me major embarrassment with the other passengers. I'll probably write up a letter to Continental tomorrow about this.
Later on a IAH-MSY flight, I told the flight deck crew during a visit after the flight what happened earlier and they just shook their heads in disbelief (they were very, very friendly btw!). When I mentioned that it was on Chautauqua, both the captain and FO nearly at the same time said they weren't surprised. Do Chautauqua employees have a bad reputation or something?
Bridogger6 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 710 posts, RR: 11 Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 19655 times:
Well I don't know if this is something you should gloat about. Anyone would be put off when approached as you approached this flight attendant. She told you that you could not see the flight deck, that it was an FAA rule. Whether or not you thought she was wrong, you handled the situation COMPLETELY without tact. No one is going to take to kindly to being told they are blatantly wrong. You could have said something like, "Oh, I didn't know that, I've been able to do it before as an aviation enthusiast." But instead you chose the more confrontational route.
One of the flight attendants main responsibilities is INDEED to control access to the flight deck and to make sure no unauthorized personnel gain access. Even though you were on the ground, if she deemed that it was not okay for you to enter the flight deck, the it was your responsibility to follow her instructions. You complete disregard for respect of other human beings is what I believe ultimately put her off from you.
I'm sorry but I definitely think you were ultimately in the wrong here, regardless of whether or not the flight attendant was correct about flight deck acccess being restricted by the FAA.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21311 posts, RR: 60 Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 19604 times:
Don't argue with the flight crew or F/As over something as mundane as that. You deserved to be kicked off, frankly, if it really happened like you said. You must remember that airlines and any businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone as long as they don't discriminate.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Jcavinato From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 516 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 19497 times:
What the heck is happening in our society? I have seen maybe five or six behaviors like that FA in different businesses and settings in the past few years. Incidents like this aren't just in the airline industry. In just about every occupation there is more and more instant flipping out over things, a lack of context and perspective. Hair trigger behaviors. People are losing the ability to think logically and to be civil with each other.
A neat thing about a chat community like airliners.net is the ability to learn from each other, to soften our edges, and to gain perspectives.
Pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2142 posts, RR: 12 Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 19422 times:
I am sorry in this day and age it is not the time to challenge such things. F/A's and Flight Crews still have a lot of fears and concerns about security. Despite the fact she was wrong in her interpretation of the rules. However, you as a passenger don't have the right to chat with the pilots and certainly not along to enter the cockpit to ask questions.
I am a business and leisure traveler so I don't have a personal vendetta. However I am tired of customers who feel that flight crews are their own personal staff that can be bossed around. My last trip to YUL 3 people (Canadians who normally keep quiet) in J Class told a woman to sit down and shut up and stop being a pain in the ass after she had been beligerant to two different F/A's and was disrupting about half of Executive First. I actually was one of them. One was a business woman with a national public profile, a businessman and myself. She was taken back and actually quiet the rest of the trip although you could see steam still streaming out of her ears. The business woman gave her card and personal cell phone number to the f/a and the In-Charge and then asked us if we would do the same. She did so just loud enough that the woman would know not to write a letter.
IAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 19370 times:
Sounds like you both handled this wrong. When she said no you should have just dropped it. There is a right time (arrival not departure when the workload is heavy) and way (nicely without a sense of entitlement) to ask for a flight deck visit. When I worked for a regional carrier you couldn't go up to the flight deck even on the ground (even with a badge) without going through the FA first who then had to deliver credentials to and obtain consent from the crew up front. We were also advised that boarding was not a good time to allow visits. Yes, she should have asked for you (given it is not a violation of Chataqua policy) or told you to to ask again on arrival and she shouldn't have over-reacted or allowed you to engage her in an argument. For all you and I know Chataqua's internal proceedures do not permit flight deck visits period.
With all the rules, regulations and company policies (have you seen how thick our FA manuals are) some of my collegues have a difficult time distinguishing FARs/CFR's and company policy. In the end does it matter which entities rule they are following or to which they attribute the rule? If they accidentally call one by the other name it doesn't change the fact that on that aircraft at that moment said behavior is not permitted by an entity with much more authority than the FA charged with enforcing it.
Phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1332 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 19358 times:
Quoting Brick (Thread starter): "You're just making stuff up!" "I'm going to write Continental about this. Flight attendants shouldn't make rules up."
If a flight attendant tells you no, you are to follow his or her orders. Do not make a scene out of it, nor question the FA. You were very lucky in this situation (i.e. police could have been summoned).
Lowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10 Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 19290 times:
Quoting Brick (Thread starter): I just got a lot more stares during the flight from other passengers. It was the most uncomfortable I've been on board a flight in a very, very long time.
There is the only instance I read where you inidicated you had a clue. Even if it is not against the FARs or company policy, such a request is a courtesy which the crew has the option to extend or deny. There is nothing about holding a ticket which entitles you to a cockpit visit. I think it was poor on the part of the captain if he did not support the flight attendant's request to have you removed.
Burj From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 892 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 19204 times:
Wow! Are you all a bunch of SHEEPLE?!
The flight attendent WAS making stuff up and he called her on it! If she had said "You can not visit and we are NOT going to ask the captain, and this is not up for dicussion or debate. Now please return to your seat or get off the plane." that would have been well within her authority and nobody would have a reason to argue with her.
HOWEVER she claimed there was an FAA rule. The poster wasn't arguing her authority, but pointing out that she can't just MAKE UP FAA rules. What next? "All Arabs have to sit at the back of the plane...FAA rule!" or "Nobody is allowed to get up and use the bathroom during the flight...FAA rule!"
Fortunately the gate agent and the pilots didn't buy into her big bag of BS!
I'm not saying the guy handled it the best way possible...but I'm just surprised at the comments so far...
EDIT to clarify: I agree that the poster did not handle the situation well....but the flight attendent didn't either and I hold her up to a higher standard as this is her PROFESSION and she should be able to handle annoying/arguementative (but not violent or theatening) passengers without resorting to making up FAA rules or without having them tossed off the plane.
DL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2062 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 19098 times:
You were completely out of line IMO. Once she told you no (right or wrong) that should have been the end of it. You are not entitled to visit the cockpit. It is not a right that you have. If she or the captain would have allowed a brief visit to the flight deck, that would represent a courtesy only and not an obligation to you on their part. You acted quite badly in this situation because she refused your request and you got pissy and arrogant about it.
Fully agree with you there - everything before that was absolutely ok from my viewpoint...
Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 6): I am sorry in this day and age it is not the time to challenge such things.
This day and age is ESPECIALLY the time to challenge such things: just because there's more paranoia going around for it to last till the end of time is no reason to simply accept every idiotic measure decided on by some publicity-hunting politician or agency.
The time to NOT challenge rules and regularions is never.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21311 posts, RR: 60 Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 18957 times:
Quoting Burj (Reply 16): What next? "All Arabs have to sit at the back of the plane...FAA rule!" or "Nobody is allowed to get up and use the bathroom during the flight...FAA rule!"
Yep, that's the next logical step.
Or maybe, just maybe, he shouldn't RUDE about it. "You're making stuff up" is about as rude as you can get, even if it's true. It also sounds like he was being aggressive.
What he fails to understand is that there may not be a rule about visiting, but there was a ban for a time after 9/11, and there is no right to be allowed to visit. But there IS a rule about listening to crew instructions. She's not telling him to do something unsafe, nor denying him something that he is in any way entitled to, so maybe he should just relax.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
CALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3730 posts, RR: 8 Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 18875 times:
Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 1): One of the flight attendants main responsibilities is INDEED to control access to the flight deck and to make sure no unauthorized personnel gain access. Even though you were on the ground, if she deemed that it was not okay for you to enter the flight deck, the it was your responsibility to follow her instructions. You complete disregard for respect of other human beings is what I believe ultimately put her off from you.
if her main responsibility is to control access, why was she in the galley during boarding not paying attention to the cockpit door??
as for Brick..............sorry you had such a bad apple on this flight........just hearing the side of your story, the FA was way out of hand for doing such a thing. All of us on here know damn well, that she was making this shit up and certainly did not make us as a company look good.
okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
DH8PU From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 63 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 18848 times:
Although I am not completely versed with FARs I do know the CARs (Canadian Aviation Regulations) and here are some quotes relevant to the situation.
Taken from CAR 705.27 note that it does not specify weather the aircraft is operating or not.
(3) No person shall be admitted to the flight deck of an aeroplane other than
(amended 2002/03/21; previous version)
(a) a flight crew member;
(b) a crew member performing their duties;
(c) an inspector referred to in subsection (1);
(d) in accordance with the procedures specified in the company operations manual,
(i) an employee of the air operator who is not a crew member performing their duties, and
(ii) a pilot, flight engineer or flight attendant employed by a wholly owned subsidiary or a code share partner of the air operator; and
(e) a person who has expertise related to the aeroplane, its equipment or its crew members and who is required to be in the flight deck to provide a service to the air operator.
And here is another one. Access to the flight deck even on the ground can still be a sensitive topic amongst crew. I could understand why some crew would feel that it would not be safe to allow anyone in the flight deck so the following CAR could apply IMHO,
602.05 (1) Every passenger on board an aircraft shall comply with instructions given by any crew member respecting the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board the aircraft.
(2) Every crew member on board an aircraft shall, during flight time, comply with the instructions of the pilot-in-command or of any person whom the pilot-in-command has authorized to act on behalf of the pilot-in-command.
IAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 18834 times:
Quoting CALMSP (Reply 22): if her main responsibility is to control access, why was she in the galley during boarding not paying attention to the cockpit door??
Um it's a CRJ, the Galley is smack up on the cockpit door. During boarding process the FA stands in the Galley as it is a mere 3 or 4 feet from the boarding door and even closer to the flight deck door. You couldn't get into the cockpit without the FA noticing if the FA is standing in the galley on a CRJ.
Oh and it is A responsibility as in one of many responsibilities an FA has. Are you disputing that controlling access to the flight deck is an FA job function?
[Edited 2008-01-17 22:52:14]
25 CALMSP: i'm not disputing that she is responsible for monitoring the flight deck door............ my bad about the CRJ.........was thinking about the ERJ.....
26 CO777DAL: You’re lucky you weren’t booted off the flight. I saw two people get booted off CO mainline flight recently for being rude to F/As. One guy on my
27 DH8PU: Just did some quick research and found the following under the FARs FAR 125.315 again does not state weather the aircraft is in opperation or not Just
28 JayDub: Sounds to me the OP was out of line. It doesn't matter the reasoning...she is a member of the crew and, if she told you know, that falls under a crew
29 Lemurs: You don't argue with the flight crew if you want to get to your destination on time. The flight crew shouldn't be making things up just because they f
30 Kiwiandrew: I have to say that I agree with the majority of the posts I have read so far , anything the cabin attendant may have done wrong pales into insignifica
31 Aggieflyboi04: I have to say both of you where out of line. You should have dropped it when she said no. We never know what someone is planning if we let them up the
32 RJdxer: Yep, she shouldn't have left the cabin unattended with passengers on board. Not really. OP mentions "this evening" so it easily could have been last
33 B777ER: He approached her and asked nicely to see the flight deck. Her complete lack of company training and understanding of the rules is what led to this e
34 AFGMEL: As usual, I am with the poster. People are becoming sheep. Read 1984 and be warned. The FA could have said "I'll check"". Not given attitude to a cust
35 Tugger: Sheeple: People unable to think for themselves. Followers. Lemmings. Those with no cognitive ablilities of their own. http://www.urbandictionary.com/
36 EA CO AS: If being polite equals being a sheep, then BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I don't see why he had to be a jerk just to prove his point. You're right, you ARE al
37 Tugger: And don't get me wrong, I don't think people should be rude. And being polite does not make one a sheep. Tug
38 Geekydude: I agree with you B777ER. I find it utterly odd so many posters here sided with the FA. Just because she's a crew member it does not mean she is in th
39 Flyboy80: When I work the "jet" as it is known at our airline (CRJ) I stand in the flight deck entry during boarding if I'm assigned the F/A "A" position. The f
40 OA260: You ask, she says no , you continue to challenge her , she gets upset. Just take the 1st no as your answer!!! You brought the situation on yourself I
41 B777ER: Make sure you all know the FAR's that pertain to your job like I am sure the PIC does and there should not be a problem then. It seems to me if the P
42 Jamman: She says no, you turn around and sit down - sometimes you get to visit the flight deck and sometimes you don't. The only time I've ever visited the fl
43 LoneStarMike: No, they were probably staring at you because you (in your own words) YELLED at the F/A. It must have been pretty loud, because you say "She was pret
44 UK_Dispatcher: Bad move. By now you were pushing it. I cringed when I read this part. You stepped out of line and this is what tipped the FA over the edge - I'm sur
45 Grunf: Ehh...dude...be kind and gentle. Say something like"I would really like to visit flight deck, I know it's kinda hard theese days but I would appreciat
46 Qslinger: Totally agree! You have to remember, those flight attendants don't have it that glamorous and easy as it seems like. You might be right in "asking th
47 SpencerII: not sure if it is in this Issue of Continental's inflight magazine, but there is usually a paragraph in the magazine somehwere that deals with this, s
48 ZKSUJ: Yes she was not clear with rules, but usually just let these things slide. You will get some clueless airline personell out there. I've been told befo
49 Andie007: Some for me - accept a NO of the FA and don't challenge her.
50 BatonOps: I agree 100%. I think you pushed a little too far.
51 Fly2YYZ: There's much to this story, by challenging the FA -- you are completely unaware that this could have been her 4th leg of the day or maybe her 3rd con
52 RJFlyer0891: Exactly! Everyone seems quick to judge the poster(gee that NEVER happens on a.net), but the F/A was extremely unprofessional in the way she handled t
53 Hiflyer: Huh? You were fully aware of what their duties were right at that time...? Just because they were sitting there does not mean they are not busy waiti
54 IAirAllie: Totally different. In one senario the FA is randomly demanding you do something (although on a CRJ it is not uncommon to need pax to move for weight
55 LO231: I'll have to jump the wagon and say: even if she didn't react like she should, a NO is a NO. Next time ask politely if you can visit the deck after th
56 GT4EZY: Whilst the Cabin Crew's stance was 'stand offish', you don't have the right to question their decisions. As a passenger, you also don't have the right
57 Dazed767: I'm sure nobody else on here would have questioned her either if you were in his shoes So easy to sit behind a computer and criticize people on here.
58 LO231: Me too. You didn't aske her politely if she could ask, you practically told her to do so. "Let's ask, shall we?" - and I can imagine a smart ass smil
59 Soon7x7: You weren't wearing a low cut top or revealling hotpants, were you?
60 ZTagged: THANK. YOU. Glad someone in this thread has cajones.
61 LO231: Cajones and plain rude are different things Regards, LO231
62 Lincoln: Continental will certainly respond, or at least they have when I've written them (both positive and critical) in the past. In all likelihood, it will
63 OHLHD: My honest opinion: First of all: How do you know they were not busy??? Second: She does not let you into the cockpit and that´s it. Take your seat an
64 Speedbird2779: I agree that it seems a bit of an over reaction on the FA's part; however I would have accepted her initial position without getting pompous - that de
65 Nworlnsbearcub: Jees Louise.... are you 11 yrs old? You definitely went about the entire situation incorrectly. If I were the FA, I would have had you removed as wel
66 Checksixx: Didn't know they operated any CRJ's...I'll have to look into that. I thought all they operated were ERJ's.
67 Thorben: Jawoll mein Führer, I will always obey to the person in uniform.
68 FlyDeltaJets87: I usually ask when boarding if I can come up and visit the flight deck after we arrive at our destination. I've only been deinied twice- once on AA a
69 Markdirk: I believe the flight attendant should have handled the situation a bit more diplomatically. I have been a flight attendant and flight attendant instru
70 Elite: I do not think that you deserved to be kicked off the flight, but I can imagine the tone was threatening and sort of provocative. Maybe it is just bad
71 National757: No. Although based on the way you handled the situation, they should respond by not allowing you to board any future Continental flights.
72 N62NA: Good for you! I am very sympathetic to the demands and rigors of the job the FAs have to do, and there have been times where I have seen pax being un
73 IAirAllie: We love passengers like you! People like you make the most difficult part of our job much easier. I tried to add you to my RU list but it doesn't see
74 PC12Fan: Both parties were in the wrong here. Brick - I am on your side really, but there come a time when you need to take the higher road and this was one of
75 Lincoln: Yep, Two or three times now I've stayed on board at the end of the flight done similar. I've also given my business card with a "If he complains feel
76 Cody: I would tell Chautuauqua or Continental how she acted. She will get reprimanded, at the very least, for leaving the airplane unattended with passenger
77 OOer: Dear Mr. Brick: I am a F/A for Delta. And you know what....some of the flight attendants that fly are just plain airheads, let me change that to most!
78 Varigb707: You should be banned from flying at all. YOu sound just like you a troubled person. One of those customer who like to enforce the "customer is always
79 Naritaflyer: Only in the airline business that this stupid attitude is prevalent. For some reason airline peolpe think they deserve the respect of everyone but no
80 Babybus: I think you did the right thing. FA's can't go making up rules as they go along. They must follow company and CAA rules and regulations. That will mak
81 BR715-A1-30: Actually, I was sort of in your situation recently on a Pinnacle Airlines flight... My incident happened AFTER the flight, and I was making my way in
82 BlueShamu330s: You lacked tact, manners and clarity. When security remains tight, I'm amazed that you were surprised by her response. Lets analyze why. You march on
83 LO231: Yes, especially after 9/11, all pax in the US will side with him, I mean he only wanted to visit the cockpit, sort of Disneyland, isn't it? I think m
84 BR715-A1-30: Either that or pulled out their baseball bats, lead pipes, and lined up to beat the crap out of this guy, LOL "Airplane"
85 Greasemonkey: Brick, I feel you man. If you look at the responses you received, a lot of them are FA's. Don't feel bad, I often have FA's tell me the same thing whe
86 LO231: Ever tried to take a picture onboard of a Japanese airline?? NOT ALLOWED! And they don't say it in a polite manner. Talking about a stupid attitude..
87 ABQopsHP: Brick, please do write a letter to CO. I can verify that the CHQ f/a will hear about it. Just yesterday CO contacted a f/a based here at CRP for CHQ,
88 N62NA: Thanks for that feedback... I hope others will think about being more sympathetic to FAs in the future. Aw, shucks. It figures, the one time someone
89 CRJ 900: I could not have said it better myself BLUESHAMU. That about sums it up.
90 FlyDeltaJets87: A) That wouldn't have accomplished anything and would have only made the situation worse. B) I very much doubt that the entire plane with have sided
91 ADXMatt: While to OP was slightly out of line for his response the F/A didn't behave properly as well. It could have went better. If done politely there is no
92 IAirAllie: Just because you were cleared prior to the flight does not mean you can march right past the FA. Correct protocol dictates that you stop by the FA fi
93 LO231: That's what I call calm and polite Everybody happy Regards, LO231