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BA B772 Crash Lands At LHR - Part 4  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12212 posts, RR: 18
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 44458 times:
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Continueing on from the first three thread, with the recent here BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 3 (by Srbmod Jan 17 2008 in Civil Aviation)

231 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3502 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 44628 times:
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Please can somebody guide me to the link of the approach video before the impact.Read part 1 2 & 3 but did not find it.
Thanks god no fatality in this incident  pray 



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 44462 times:

Somehow this might be similar to what happened to a Fokker 70 approach MUC 3 years ago:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20040105-0

Opinions?

SailorOrion


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 44261 times:

Hi!

This accident reminded me a bit the one in 1982/10/17 with a Egyptair 707-366C SU-APE in GVA. The conditions were different because the 707 just descended too fast and touched the grass 50 short of the Runway 23...but then it went all way to the runway and the fuselage was scrapped, one of the wings separed mostly from the fuselage and the engines were completely torn out! Compared with the BA 777 one I can clearly say that this 777 was mostly intact...the 707 was mostly destroyed and amazingly no one died in that accident more than 25 years ago! A very good friend of mine and a great photographer Jean-Luc Altherr sent me copies of that accident and when I showed to a TAP 747 retired captain he simply said that the pilot was very good because he saved all the people on board. I must agree that with this BA 777 accident we also should say that the captain is a very good one because he saved all people!!!
I also saw the YouTube small video and indeed the 777 is showing an unusual high angle of attack....I've seen many 777's landing and this one shows that the pilot was trying to "gain" every feet possible to get that plane on the ground!
Regards


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 44294 times:

Quoting VS773ER (Reply 258):
Dunno about any of you but, personally, I feel the crew all deserve "medals as big as a frying pan"!?

Personally i don't understand is how the crew could have "glided it across and managed to get the nose up." when the "jet had lost power and avionics".

Or were the flight surfaces still intact?


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 44147 times:



Quoting CV990 (Reply 3):
I showed to a TAP 747 retired captain he simply said that the pilot was very good because he saved all the people on board.

In any accident, once the airplane hits the ground, survival of anyone aboard, has nothing to do with the skill of the pilot, and more to do with pure luck.

The crew and passengers of this BA B-777 were very lucky, as were the crew and passengers of the AF A-340 crash (in Toronto) two years ago.


User currently onlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2702 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 44101 times:

With all these numerous posts, I have one question: why did this a/c crash? was it an emergency landing? or was there a problem during landing?


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 44113 times:

People are mentioning about fuel starvation. I would be very surprised if that was a cause as BA has publicly praised the crew. They will have spoken to the pilots and they will have probably told them how much fuel they thought they had on board. So if it was that I don't think BA and others would be saying the things they are.

User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 44147 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 1):
Please can somebody guide me to the link of the approach video before the impact.Read part 1 2 & 3 but did not find it.

Its in post 203 in Pt 3.


User currently offlineB777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 44083 times:



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 8):
Its in post 203 in Pt 3.

Unbelievable that the videographer stopped the video like he did. You would think with all the bloody spotters in the UK and around EGLL, there would be more than this one video and more pics other than the ones that guy handed over before making copies thus insuring that they will not be seen for months and months to come.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 43890 times:



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 4):
Or were the flight surfaces still intact?

yes the flight surfaces were intact. Also the engines were probably still turning (I think they were running at idle) providing hydraulic pressure, and the Flight Control System works off batteries, it even has it's own three special batteries, separate from the Main aircraft battery, and the APU battery.


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4593 posts, RR: 77
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 43768 times:
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Quoting Moo (Reply 257):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 252):
Fuel Starvation,But why.

There could be fuel in the tanks, but a high nose angle or a rapid acceleration could result in inability to pump that fuel and thus lead to fuel starvation.

That theory which has been beaten to death ignores why the airplane was in a high nose position.
It also disagrees with all min / low fuel procedures in terms of urgency / emergency calls.
Had it been the case, we would have already known of it.
What should be looked at is all the factors that could lead to the *low and slow* status of the final approach.
It could be loss of all engines thrust.
It could be a windshear.
It could be an autopilot tracking a steeper slope than the ILS glide.
It could be a tired pilot reacting too slowly to a decreasing airspeed and finding himself close to a stall
It could be an un-commanded thrust reduction pointing to a flight guidance failure...

I am sure that as 777s are still flying, that airplane systems are not in cause (there are ways to fast-read the on-board recorders without getting into the details).
That leaves an external factor or some human factors.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineGordonroxburgh From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2000, 550 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 43805 times:

The video is from a phone, so would only be short, but the fact that it stops tend to mean it was not that BA038. it looks a tad high for it to then "land" just inside the fence.

Recover underway at LHR. A/C will be air bagged to get the jacks under, pretty standard procedure, it probably even in the a/c maintenance manual


User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3502 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 43669 times:
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Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 8):
Its in post 203 in Pt 3.

Thank you.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineGordonroxburgh From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2000, 550 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 43683 times:

Sky News reporting their sources saying that the crew lost command control of the engines, and they did not respond when them pushed the throttles for more power on approach

User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 43626 times:

Hi!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
In any accident, once the airplane hits the ground, survival of anyone aboard, has nothing to do with the skill of the pilot, and more to do with pure luck.

That's your opinion and you're underestimating the role of the crew even when the plane hits the ground...pure luck it's quite a "shallow" term that I refuse to accept.
Regards


User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3422 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 43503 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 15):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
In any accident, once the airplane hits the ground, survival of anyone aboard, has nothing to do with the skill of the pilot, and more to do with pure luck.

That's your opinion and you're underestimating the role of the crew even when the plane hits the ground...pure luck it's quite a "shallow" term that I refuse to accept.
Regards

And he also forget the fact that how the aircraft hit the ground is mostly dependent on the pilot. And how and where the aircrafts it the ground are important factors to what will happen after the impact

[Edited 2008-01-18 02:26:07]

User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4341 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 42908 times:

Any official confirmation is the aircraft will be written off or not?
Any chance that even while/if it hardly makes economical sense to repair it, BA and Boeing will fork out some extra money just like Qantas with their 747 at Bangkok just to keep an impeccible safety score with no 777 write off accidents or for BA mainline to remain with no write-off accidents since 1976?



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 42736 times:



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 17):
Any chance that even while/if it hardly makes economical sense to repair it, BA and Boeing will fork out some extra money just like Qantas with their 747 at Bangkok just to keep an impeccible safety score with no 777 write off accidents or for BA mainline to remain with no write-off accidents since 1976?

Wouldnt surprise me - but I reckon she'll be repaired. Hope so anyway.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2820 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 42587 times:

ADNP (A dot net pedantry) : On BBC they said that because of the damage at the piano keys, aircraft are departing the runway in a different direction. What she probably meant was that they are departing from a holding point further up. The wind today is still (south) westerly.

User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6921 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 41906 times:



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):
That theory which has been beaten to death ignores why the airplane was in a high nose position.
It also disagrees with all min / low fuel procedures in terms of urgency / emergency calls.

Unless he was out of fuel by the time it was recorded on video... Keep it as high as long as possible, try to reach the fence.... then flopped...

Other than that, then I'd agree with the rest of the post...

This video leads me to wonder... was it an autoapproach or A/P off A/T off approach?

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 41480 times:



Quoting Glom (Reply 19):
ADNP (A dot net pedantry) : On BBC they said that because of the damage at the piano keys, aircraft are departing the runway in a different direction. What she probably meant was that they are departing from a holding point further up. The wind today is still (south) westerly.

well, I surely hope no aircrafts are landing or taking off towards the crash site as long as the wreckage is resting there.... wouldn't do any good in case of an overrun...



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineKubik From Croatia, joined Apr 2007, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 41355 times:

Hi all,

I do work very very close to the runway 27L and as I was working yesterday at the time. My occurence was hearing just large bang nothing abnormal indicating something is wrong with the engines. Than I run out of the office and saw the rush on the runway.

Kubik


User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 41255 times:



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 20):
This video leads me to wonder... was it an autoapproach or A/P off A/T off approach?

If the engines were out, it's not an autoapproach. When the engines are out, the Autoland disconnects itself automatically.

If the engines were running, which I doubt highly, then it could be an autoland.

I doubt the engines were running though, because those trents react quite fast when the throttles are advanced. The crew would have throttled up to reach the runway.

Just my two cents.



Cheers
User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 41019 times:



Quoting Gordonroxburgh (Reply 12):
The video is from a phone, so would only be short, but the fact that it stops tend to mean it was not that BA038. it looks a tad high for it to then "land" just inside the fence.

You reckon? Having photographed 27L approaches from the pedestrian bridge there myself, it must have been shot just north of /next to Hatton Cross. The nose is appreciably higher than normal. It does look lower than normal altitude to start with and by the last frame it does appear to be sinking fast enough to reach the ground opposite Myrtle Avenue which is where it did impact.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
25 Pihero : Mandala, That's the worst one coul do : Stalling will be the result. And falling like a brick on those houses.
26 Christopherwoo : Which video is this?
27 FlyinTLow : You are forgetting that this is an airline and they have to do everything they can to keep their positive image. BA going ahead and saying it was a p
28 KL911 :
29 Kubik : The angle of the aircraft is much greater than usual on that video. Accoriding to my colleague who was on the Perimetr Road and saw whole lot the airc
30 CV990 : Hi! I absolutely agree with you, and to emphasise more that fact I just would like to remind two accidents that were related with airplanes that hit t
31 PHKLM : Supposedly this is BA38 on the ill-fated approach.
32 Spacecadet : Read the same thing, CNN reported something similar yesterday. It is sounding more and more as if the engines were running and they did not spool up
33 Starlionblue : We don't know that. We don't know that either.
34 Post contains links RebelDJ : Quoting TriStarSteve (Reply 255): The images at Flight Global show the Left u/c sticking straight up through the wing. The fuel tank is fwd of this. T
35 B707forever : For all the wonderment I'm struck but a few things: 1) Everyone got out OK 2) The 777 took a very hard landing, to say the least, on grass/mud and sta
36 Post contains images LuiePL : This picture from the first thread show the damage to the left wing is from the left main landing gear actually puncturing through the wing itself. P
37 Bwohlgemuth : Apparently (this is directly from a 767 captain) that when engine power is lost, apparently most avionics go dark to save power. Once the APU or RAT i
38 Faro : If my engines and engine-driven electrix/hydraulix all quit on me at the same instance and the RAT automatically deploys, is it instantly effective? C
39 Post contains links and images FlyinTLow : Even though this is something you don't see everyday, you train it numerous times in the simulator, and when it happens, it is unexpected, but to no
40 RJ111 : There are some holes in the fueslage. It also means higher lift up until the stall point. And considering he supposedly only narrowly missed the fence
41 CHRISBA777ER : Given that the plane had just come from Beijing and so in all likelihood would have been near the reserve - how much fuel would there have been in th
42 CHRISBA777ER : Someone surmised on the other thread(s) that it was a foam-lance thing that fills the cabin with foam, as a fire suppression thing, whereas someone e
43 Acabgd : RAT doesn't help at all at such low speeds. It is effective only above 140-150kt. However, battery that powers essential instruments kicks in automat
44 Acabgd : Usually, if not always, you first use the center tank.
45 Christopherwoo : I was just thinking, is there any way to get hold of the ATC scripts from yesterday? I just heard there was a Mayday call seconds before landing?
46 CHRISBA777ER : Didnt know that - thanks. Any reason why it is like this?
47 CHRISBA777ER : I believe its illegal to broadcast it - you can get in a lot of trouble I think. Thy'll have it at the inquest, but doubt it will see the public ligh
48 Post contains images FlyinTLow : Yes, it does, but drag increases more than lift. It essentially means that the plane will follow a steeper descent angle and essentially hit the grou
49 AF1624 : Does it really matter anyway ? I mean, an airplane is landable even without electricity with only the vital systems alive. And that's what happens wh
50 TristarSteve : The remaining fuel on board would be 8 to 12 tons. This would all be in the wing tanks. The B777 has three tanks, left wing centre, right wing. Fuel
51 Miamiair : He wasn't very good. That he got lucky the whole lot didn't die is something else. As PIC, he should have monitored the fuel state and responded to t
52 CHRISBA777ER : Thanks lads - learn something new every day. Cheers.
53 BoeingOnFinal : Fuel is carefully calculated in the pre-flight process, and i carefully monitored at fixed intervals during the flight (I assume the airline has SOP
54 Christopherwoo : what is illegal about it? I thought you could listen in to radio fequencies online etc?
55 Contrails : If this has been covered in one of the previous threads please accept my apology, but what significance is there to the rudder being ripped off? That
56 StealthZ : Note to AIBB & NTSB, cancel overtime, suspend investigation Miamiair has solved the whole thing, Really where do you get off making such sweeping cla
57 Jamesbuk : It isnt ripped off - The 777 has a split style rudder and because of the heavy winds - it has pushed the rudder sideways whilst its being sitting the
58 Post contains images David L : In the UK it's technically illegal to listen to any broadcast that isn't meant for you to hear. However, I've seen quotes from the Home Office that t
59 Miamiair : If you would bother to see the quote I was referring to, it was a United Airlines DC-8 that crashed in 1978 for the reasons I stated. It is a case st
60 CHRISBA777ER : So presumably you have a tank venting potentially explosive fuel vapours if it is punctured - is there some sort of inert gas suppression system in p
61 Mendaero : I have to agree with TriStarSteve, I see no evidence of fuel tank rupture in any photos I have seen, and pic 12 just shows foam on the ground. Whilst
62 Post contains links Gogojet : Some more detailed pictures are available on http://www.heathrowpictures.com/pictures/pictures.html
63 SJC4Me : How the heck did the tires turn tan in color? Are airliner tires painted black?
64 SJC4Me : That looks like a 773. I thought it was supposed to be a 772?
65 PHKLM : Apart from the insignificant little detail BA does not operate the 773 it could very well be indeed :S
66 LHR27C : It's a 772. BA don't operate 773s.
67 A390 : " target=_blank>http://www.heathrowpictures.com/pict....html Some excellent photos here. Clearly: 1. Engines do not always break off as they are desi
68 Gregarious119 : Mud and/or foam from the fire crew. Interesting that they have all the doors shut back up and chutes attached already.
69 CV990 : Hi! Well according to the media it looks really obvious to me that the crew did a great job!!! What to you need then to change your words??? Regards
70 Mhodgson : Foam from the fire service
71 Skywatch : The foam spray that the firemen were using was that color. ---Skywatch
72 VS773ER : Their amazing, I didn't think they'd release photo's so detailed so soon! Engine number two certainly ate a few sq ft of West London turf![Edited 200
73 Post contains images B742 : I wonder how this will effect BA's new routes to be operated with the 777 (HYD/GIG/EZE). Will the aircraft be written off? Rob!
74 TwinCommander : the left engine shows it was still spinning before impact... right engine wasnt... look at how the fan blades are seperated on the left compared to th
75 Hotelmode : Er, it landed on wet grass
76 VS239 : Doesn't matter, answered already[Edited 2008-01-18 06:34:30]
77 A390 : No they aren't painted. They are made of rubber which happens to be black in colour.
78 Post contains links ZTagged : Nice find, but I'm confused. http://www.heathrowpictures.com/pict...picturegallery_baw_b772_gymmm3.jpg and http://www.heathrowpictures.com/pict...ict
79 Khobar : Left engine - broken/missing fan blades = would suggest engine was running. Right engine - no broken fan blades...hmmm
80 Irobertson : I don't think he kept it high constantly. That clip is only 5 seconds long and shows the nose high pitch, but... we have eyewitness accounts of a lot
81 MD80fanatic : Good thing this wasn't RWY 27 in San Diego, Nice to have lots of open field to set her down in. Looks like a couple extra engines would have come in h
82 PC12Fan : Wouldn't have made a damned bit of difference if it indeed was fuel starvation.
83 RayChuang : I wonder has anyone considered that they could fix G-YMMM? It appears that the damage was less than what happened to a Japan Airlines 747 that ran off
84 Post contains links Aclco : I agree.. one engine was probably out. I think that the most scary things in these images is the hole in the fuselage.. http://www.heathrowpictures.c
85 Moo : Pretty sure that may be the undercarriage as it parted from the aircraft, especially as those marks to the forward of the hole look like tire marks.
86 AirbusA346 : According to Sky News it looks like they are going to try and move it. Tom.
87 Ogre727 : Sorry if this has been asked before, but has the captain declared what happened? or anyone in the cockpit given any insight as to what might have happ
88 Post contains images ZTagged : Wasn't me! Gogojet gets finder's credit. Could it be from something slamming off the side? It doesn't quite look like it truly penetrated it, so mayb
89 BuyantUkhaa : It does seem so...
90 ZTagged : Not to the world, he's still probably giving his statement to the investigation board. On that same note, is there some kind of non-disclosure contra
91 SAS330got : Silly question really. But will the passangers be getting there luggage or is it automaticly rendered lost, and they get the compensation for it? just
92 Starlionblue : I highly doubt it. Apart from terrorist acts, hardly any airliner crash takes less than months to figure out. As has been stated, Miamiair was referr
93 ZTagged : I'm pretty sure that once the investigation starts and the aircraft is moved, all luggage will be inspected to see if there was anything in it to cau
94 Gordonroxburgh : the luggage will be off loaded once the aircraft is stable. Trust me, they will want it off pretty quickly once its on jacks to get a few tonnes of we
95 Gordonroxburgh : CAPTAIN TO MAKE STATEMENT AT 4PM
96 ZTagged : SAUCE PLZ Seriously though, where'd you hear about this one?
97 Nohag : Seems odd to me. This is certainly not a common practice! If it's true I think it doesn't look good for him.
98 ZTagged : Agree. In my mind, if I was the captain I'd leave all official statements to BA for the time being. Let their 3 piece suits deal with the bad pr.
99 AirbusA346 : Sky News. Tom.
100 ZTagged : Gotchya. Just read something interesting.. What would cause a 777 to not respond? And if he had "less than 30 seconds" to deal with the situation, ho
101 Starlionblue : Yes. I mean both things are equally plausible. [Edited 2008-01-18 07:34:29][Edited 2008-01-18 07:34:56]
102 Gh123 : Of course it does, when you are on the ground, your flight controls such as rudder, aeleron and nosewheel still provide you with some control until t
103 MD80fanatic : True. Interesting the lack of fire or spilt fuel where the landing gear strut punctured the wing....perhaps there was no fuel left to spill. Geesh...
104 Post contains images Jamesbuk : Well my guess is the engines went non responding and he couldnt press control alt delete and get the task manager open quick enough to end process an
105 Post contains images RobK : Will that do ya ? R
106 Post contains images Starlionblue : Jet fuel is notoriously hard to ignite. You need vaporized fuel to support combustion. While the wing tanks look to have been breached, there doesn't
107 Gregarious119 : If only he was on a Mac...
108 Fruitbat : He'll be probably reading a BA-prepared statement. Bet it's a thank-you note to the crew and emergency services, not a detailed explaination as to wh
109 Vega9000 : He probably didn't. Most cellphones come preset with a video recording time of a few seconds, to allow the video to be sent by MMS.
110 Post contains images Starlionblue : That guy must have had smoke coming out of his ears after the video stopped. But at least we can now blame Vodafone for the crash.
111 Post contains images ZTagged : This is most likely what's going to happen. PLACE YOUR BETS!
112 Coronado990 : Not a silly question at all considering some of that luggage might be peoples' pets.
113 Oldtimer : When your wheels dig into the mud and get ripped off you have no control. Once the a/c had touched down I doubt if the PIC had any control of what ha
114 Glideslope : Good theory IMO, if thy had power. If no power, IMO, no fuel. Despite what BA says. Time will tell. The gear through the left wing + impact with no f
115 Faro : Would the battery provide sufficient energy to give minimal flight controls authority? Faro
116 Ferengi80 : Captain Peter Burkill on Sky News praised the crew and passengers of BA038, and said that the Pilot Flying was Senior First Officer John Howard. Very
117 Pihero : The captain waffled about pros and thanks. Said absu lu te ly NOTHING. Just a PR ops.[Edited 2008-01-18 08:17:51]
118 PanAm1971 : I was on a QF flight from YSSY to WSSS. It was brand new 744. We had to go around. The reason? The Captain said to us that the aircraft's computer "th
119 TristarSteve : Inerting of empty fuel tanks is a relatively new idea. A system is now available and is being fitted to new aircraft. I have never met one yet. The p
120 ZTagged : It doesn't seem like it. The ship involved at LHR isn't all that new.
121 LTU330 : It has been stated many times, irrespective of whether the aircraft had fuel, or not, the gear went up through a section of the wing that is not part
122 Starlionblue : I don't get why you had to go around (presumably at the destination), then stayed overnight in WSSS, which you said was where you were going, before
123 Post contains images Glideslope : What ever happened to the good old days with the white scarf, goggles, a map between your legs?
124 TristarSteve : There is sufficient signalling authority, but in this situation hydraulic power is required. But even a windmilling engine provides hydraulic pressur
125 Ferengi80 : Just seen the video footage from a mobile phone of G-YMMM on finals on Sky News, and she certainly appeared to be at a perculiar angle, very nose-up.
126 David L : FWIW, Captain Burkill confirmed that the FO was flying at the time.
127 Itsonlyme : What did u expect him to say? It svery early on and the investigation has just started, therefore he cannot comment on it. No surprise.
128 Post contains images Starlionblue : Pilots drink far too little these days to handle that kind of flying. Knowing Pihero, I will assume this was just his way of saying "told you so". In
129 Khobar : Not necessarily - they can establish overall cause quickly - it's the root cause(s) that take time. For example, AA 587 overall cause was loss of tai
130 Jamesbuk : Did you see the interview? the captain confirmed it was the Senior First Officer who was flying the approach and Im presuming he landed it - if they
131 Post contains images David L : Possibly inspired by the fact that he looks like he could be George Clooney's brother.
132 Glideslope : Because it's close enough. We will know soon, If they were out of fuel then that is where the real issues start. Lot's of unknowns for the next 24-48
133 Pihero : The investigation has been more than tainted with the WAGs that have been hitting every fan around Heathrow and every news desk. On the other hand, t
134 Starlionblue : Fair enough.
135 Post contains images David L : Only a hunch but I suspect that if he had taken over, he'd have worded it differently. I got the impression he was praising the FO for his handling d
136 Thrust : First crash of a Boeing 777. Amazing how long it took compared to other aircraft. Is this bird going to be able to fly again?
137 Gh123 : 31 years for Concorde
138 PanAm1971 : LOL! I'm sure it was dumbed down. I guess my point is that a catestrophic software failure is a serious possibility.
139 Cusaeng : Statement by Captain Peter Burkill - read out today at Waterside As British Airways flight and cabin crew, we are trained to deal with emergency situa
140 Coronado990 : Actually there is plenty of open space between the fence and the piano keys at San Diego because of the displaced threshold...1810 feet of it to be e
141 Halls120 : As it should have been. There will be future litigation, and I'm sure BA's lawyers gave the Captain a detailed list of what he could and could not sa
142 Ogre727 : I would imagine there have been far more flights of the 777 in this period, than those of Concorde in 31 years. Still, both are pretty good records.
143 Post contains links BristolFlyer : A question about the pic in here, fourth row, second column: http://www.heathrowpictures.com/pictures/pictures.html I think someone said that that hol
144 Post contains links Spacecadet : " target=_blank>http://www.heathrowpictures.com/pict....html A couple of observations, and feel free to disagree if anyone sees it differently: 1) At
145 ZTagged : And there are far more 777 frames than concorde.
146 TristarSteve : Look at the black marks, The R U/C Came adrift. It must have dug this hole on its way. I don't believe the windows are broken, you can see foam from
147 APFPilot1985 : It's called a Boom Snozzle. The line of thinking with the ARFF that I know is if they punch one passenger out while injecting foam but save the rest
148 NorthStarDC4M : The images don't really say much. The 1st is from the side the aircraft was skidding sideways into so was probably on the ground before the other one
149 ZTagged : I don't think so, to be honest. Kegworth happened due to confusion via the new 734 gauges. The 772 is all digital, it'd be damn hard for the entire c
150 Post contains links and images Kaitak : One question occurred to me in relation to "brace positions" on board a 777; in the BA J Class configuration, some seats are facing backwards: View La
151 Spacecadet : That doesn't explain why one engine has blade damage and dirt embedded all around the engine and the other shows neither of those things. I mean, loo
152 NorthStarDC4M : Let me rephrase the rest of my post then: In my hypotheses, Engine #1/left/1st image) struck the ground 1st and at a higher rate of speed than #2/rig
153 Cusaeng : Correct, in the rear facing club world seats passangers are advised to sit back in the chair and cross the arms over the chest. Cusaneg
154 Kaitak : Would that not be accounted for by the fact that the right main gear was sheared off, so the No2 engine was effectively acting like a wheelbarrow and
155 Comorin : No. There is a position displayed on the card where you lean back and fold your arms across your chest.
156 Stratocruiser : Saw the video and there was certainly a very high angle of attack - Why? How could this have developed? Was the pilot trying to stretch the glide by h
157 Irobertson : He appears to be trying to squeeze out every inch of space he could by diving a smidge to keep speed up and then pulling back to gain distance withou
158 Kubik : The brace position is different. As far as I can remember you are sitting straight with your hands over the chest. Kubik
159 Boeing747_600 : So what does that mean?!?! Is he suggesting that he wasnt the PIC at any time during the landing?!?! I would have imagined that he yelled "my control
160 Post contains links LHRSpotter : AAIB initial report can now be found here: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/a..._january_2008___initial_report.cfm The flight crew were interviewed
161 AT : BA is a world class airline, with an excellent safety record-- (same applies to the 777 type) and I don't think this incident will have any, let alone
162 LTU330 : I actually agree that fuel could be the issue, however, if the tank is not ruptured then the fuel (or vapour) will not ignite. It does not matter if
163 Theginge : I would imagine that if the engines failed to respond as the AAIB state and they can find an initial cause then there will be detailed examinations so
164 Post contains images BigMac : The windows aren't broken, it's foam residue that's sticking around the edges of the windows.
165 LTU330 : ....and further to my previous reply, it is now reported by the AAIB that 'a significant amount of fuel' leaked after the incident, but did not ignite
166 Post contains images David L : PIC != Pilot Flying. I think you've attributed someone else's words to Pihero.
167 Nighthawk : CONFIRMED: "Engine Failure" to blame for crash. Both engines failed 2 miles short of landing. just announced on Radio1
168 Post contains links ULMFlyer : Thanks for the link LHRSpotter. I think we can stop talking about fuel exhaustion since a "significant amount of fuel leaked from the aircraft but th
169 Post contains links Nighthawk : UPDATE: Initial indications from the interviews and Flight Recorder analyses show the flight and approach to have progressed normally until the aircra
170 Miamiair : Double engine failures usually mean fuel starvation. They may have ingested something, but then the failures wouldn't be simultaneous. Keep in mind,
171 MDorBust : Enough you stilly gits. YOU DO NOT EXTEND A GLIDE BY PULLING THE NOSE UP!!! Pulling the nose up is the last thing you want to do in a gliding aircraft
172 Gregarious119 : The captain isn't always the one flying the plane....it sounds like this coming across as a suprise to you? I think in the heat of the moment it had
173 Theginge : Seems like some can't believe an FO managed to crash land a plane! As it says the engines failed to respond doesn't mean they failed, they may well ha
174 JoeCanuck : This is only true if the plane is already at best glide angle of attack. If it's below that, then pulling the nose up is correct. Also, you do pull t
175 Teme82 : One possible reason that I'm pondering now is the fuel quality (how clean the fuel is) in China. I've read some where that the Western Airliners have
176 Post contains links and images Leezyjet : It happened on a wet Thursday. If it had been a sunny Saturday (or even a wet Saturday) there would have been loads of spotters down at Myrtle avenue
177 David L : I think this has been covered earlier. They may have wanted some early height to clear a hazardous area and accepted a harder landing on mud and gras
178 Wjcandee : My personal opinion is that BA is trying to get the best possible PR spin in the minds of the public before the inevitable finger-pointing aims back a
179 PHKLM : The end of ETOPS? It will be very intersting to see what caused this.
180 Don81603 : As I understand it, both the PIC and FO are fully (and I assume equally) qualified to handle any and all emergency situations, does it make much diffe
181 TristarSteve : I still think they were running at idle, but not responding. I once had an RB211-524G which failed to respond during the descent. It had flown throug
182 MDorBust : I think we can assume quite safely that this aircraft was not at or above it's optimum glide speed, so he wasn't trying to adjust his airspeed downwa
183 Post contains images LTU330 : The interesting thing is that when both the Autothrottle and the Pilots commanded more thrust there was no response. Mention has been made of fuel sta
184 DenverDanny : Are these signs of bad cockpit resource management--that the Captain wasn't the one flying the plane in the emergency and the passengers not having be
185 GDB : Are you feeling OK? What do you expect? The AAIB investigation is in it's very early stages. So speculation from him is pointless and would be very w
186 Khobar : Maybe the foam washed the mud off the fuselage?
187 Aerobalance : Hmmm. Maybe 'Babybus' from Thread 1 was on to something... "Let's hope BA ground these aircraft until there has been a thorough investigation into the
188 MDorBust : No really, it's very normal for the FO to be flying the plane. Seriously. No kidding even.
189 DAYflyer : This is really puzzling to me. I have been reading all of these posts, now going on 800 of them, and there is no real consensus on what happened here.
190 Shed360 : Just a couple of points: The wet soft grass it fell/landed on was a big saviour it would of been another story if it came down on the black stuff? The
191 Spacecadet : It doesn't add up. What could possibly cause an airplane to not respond to either auto-throttle or manual throttle commands? That is a *serious* prob
192 David L : It now looks as though the engines were unresponsive when the crew needed more power. In spite of this, the crew managed to get the aircraft down wit
193 Miamiair : I have heard of CF6's stagnating, but that is on a idle descent. Can't speak for the RR's. And it usually is one that stalls/stagnates. The QRH is pre
194 Post contains links Cloudyapple : OFFICIAL: BA Plane failed to Respond to Demand for Thrust http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7196962.stm Official AAIB Statement http://news.bb
195 ULMFlyer : I agree, but would contaminated fuel explain the (unconfirmed) reports of avionics failure too? If the engines just failed to spool up as requested b
196 Post contains links Cloudyapple : Official AAIB Statement http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7196945.stm This puts to rest any theory of fuel exhaustion due to miscalculations o
197 GDB : Quite right DAYflyer, until the AAIB report........ I fear than in our instant information (or more often speculation} age, some things still require
198 MDorBust : I'm not. I'm criticizing the people who assume the nose up attitude was because the pilots were "trying to extend the glide." There is a much more ra
199 Post contains images David L : Highly unlikely, I would have thought. If BA were aware of an intrinsic problem, you can be sure other operators would be, too. ... and yet some peop
200 Post contains links Jcf5002 : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7196945.stm This we all pretty much know already. When they say a "significant" amount of fuel leake
201 Boeing747_600 : Dont be presumptuous - if you had bothered to follow my argument, you would have noticed that I was asking whether or not the Capt took over the cont
202 Kaitak : Just curious as to what role the relief FO played in this; didn't see him at the press conference, nor named or mentioned. In a situation like this (t
203 Post contains images Col : The F/A had what 20 years with BA, guess he has a little bit of experience. Handing over a plane where you have a feeling for how it is going through
204 OldAeroGuy : As has been pointed out earlier, there are no fuel tanks above the landing gear in either the extended or retracted positions. The pictures show the
205 Post contains images David L : They don't seem to have had much time. "Aviate, navigate, communicate"... With the problem seemingly happening so late, I can understand that the pri
206 Post contains images David L : I think we need to restate the point others have made that fuel starvation is not the same as having no fuel. I assume you're referring to the latter
207 Katekebo : First, I find these posts that say "end of ETOPS", or "B777 should be grounded" completely childish. There are many reasons for which the engines coul
208 LTU330 : The reports of Avionic failure are unconfirmed, and not mentioned in the preliminary AAIB investigation. So maybe they can be discounted at the momen
209 EMBQA : Correct.... Fuel Starvation.... No fuel supplied to the engines, but the tanks may have fuel. No Fuel...............Just what it say.. you've run the
210 Khobar : And a lot of evidence that it was caused by a software glitch in the engine control system and a failure of the altimeter system, as also discussed.
211 Speedbird2779 : PIC = Pilot in Command = the captain the legal authority for the flight stops here. We would normally use PF - Pilot Flying and PNF - Pilot not Flyin
212 Post contains images Ikramerica : Doesn't sound like what happened, but it could be something that happens in the future. Along with other explanations, it's a physics thing. By pushi
213 GDB : Current BA talk is PR - they want to portray the pilots in the best possible light to prevent an avalanche of lawsuits. Remember the Transat A330 "gl
214 Boeing747_600 : No! Not necessarily. The Captain is in command of the aircraft at ALL times even when he is the PNF, so he will be held ultimately responsible IN THE
215 Post contains images Jcf5002 : I'm with you guys... There's a big difference between how much fuel is in the tanks and how much is usable, almost every pilot is aware of this from
216 Post contains images David L : Not really. Flying at the lowest speed possible so that there was no energy in reserve, towards trees, which couldn't be seen because of the extreme
217 Post contains links Singapore_Air : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ing-about-the-ba-777-accident.html I think the above short article is very interesting and certainly seems a sl
218 OA260 : " target=_blank>http://www.heathrowpictures.com/pict...3.jpg This site seems to have crashed now . Anyone got anymore links???
219 Fiatstilojtd : Sorry, but I do not get the reaction of some people in here with the "Captain did not take over"...as far as I know there are some SENIOR First Office
220 Post contains images David L : If you mean fuel contamination, I think one or two would disagree that it hasn't been mentioned here.
221 GDB : Inevitable I guess, but hasn't this event brought the 'experts' out (in the most ironic sense). Really, like BA, it's wait for more from the AAIB. The
222 Post contains images LHStarAlliance : Quoting Flighglobal : "Crashed 777 engines did not respond to auto-throttle" That's what I said yesterday ! It turned out to be right ... Constantin
223 Pihero : I'm also an airline employee and I understand your concerns. But to call a press conference to have THE main character READ a press department-origin
224 Speedbird2779 : I repeat that I would consider it very bad form to try and pass control at such an evolution in the flight; the SFO had the "feel" of the aircraft an
225 Comorin : See: I'm sure any number of BA crew will be happy to explain why. Given that you are decelerating, you certainly want to lean back on your rear-acing
226 Post contains images David L : Given that they landed short, you were hardly alone in considering that as a possibility.
227 Post contains images RB211TriStar : VERY interesting article indeed. Although I don't want to be chastised for critiquing the quality control of Chinese products... ala fuel in this cas
228 Khobar : Well, this is the wrong thread to open up that particular discussion, but the facts of the case have been discussed, and the issues you mention were
229 Post contains images David L : In my defence, I didn't open it up. Agreed.
230 Post contains images Boeing747_600 : Speedbird2779: thanks for your most instructive post and for clarifying the PIC/PF and transfer-of-control issues. I meant PF when I wrote PIC (which
231 Post contains links ANCFlyer : Please continue here: BA B772 Crash Lands At LHR - Part 5 (by ANCFlyer Jan 18 2008 in Civil Aviation)
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