Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
BA B772 Crash Lands At LHR - Part 5  
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40583 times:

Continue here with the BA 777 crash please.

238 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJamesbaldwyn From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40673 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7196962.stm

" Two engines on a plane that crash-landed at Heathrow failed to respond to demands for thrust, a preliminary report has said. "


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40556 times:

Well we now know the superficial cause of the accident - the engines did not respond when commanded to add thrust.

The question is, what could the root cause be for this? What systems connect these two engines to the cockpit controls that could fail in this manner? (Include human error in there if there's something the pilots could have screwed up.)

[Edited 2008-01-18 12:02:03]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineGh123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40416 times:

What will the damage be to the twin engine concept - mainly the 787 and A350.

It's not my perception I'm concerned about but the media are certainly going to influence the public's opinions on twin engine aircraft - that is where the damage will be!!

Edited for clarity.

[Edited 2008-01-18 12:05:20]

User currently offlineGlbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40443 times:

Additional detail from Flight International: “Following further demands for increased thrust from the auto-throttle, and subsequently the flight crew moving the throttle levers, the engines similarly failed to respond.”

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-not-respond-to-auto-throttle.html


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40414 times:

If it is to be around 30 days until a really detailed AAIB report, will we get into three figure numbers for 'BA B772 Crash Lands At LHR - Part XXX'.

I'm still just so glad it was not much more serious.


User currently offlineUkair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40362 times:

I thought the captain was supposed to take over if there was an emergency.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40380 times:



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 217):
I think the above short article is very interesting and certainly seems a slightly plausible piece of speculation that has yet to be mentioned strenuously on these four threads thus far.

Contaminated fuel is an interesting theory. It is something that would hit at the end of flight when most of the good fuel is gone. But would it be noticeable before then? Higher fuel burn, lower than expected thrust?

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 2):
The question is, what could the root cause be for this?

See above. It could cause one engine to shut down completely and the other to not be able to spool up. We'll have to see.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 225):
Given that you are decelerating, you certainly want to lean back on your rear-acing seat seat and not lean forward - opposite of a front-facing seat.

Right up until a lap top computer hits you in the face and shatters your skull.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGlbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40382 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 2):
The question is, what could the root cause be for this? What systems connect these two engines to the cockpit controls that could fail in this manner?

From Flight International:

Among many theories as to the reason for a simultaneous failure of both engines after a long, uneventful flight, fuel contamination appears to come out top in the probabilities list. The theory pilots propose is that although fuel was plentiful, a heavier-than-fuel contaminant, such as water, represented a minute proportion of the fuel in the tanks on the approach, so problems did not arise.

During the flight, the fuel was cold-soaked and any contaminant could have frozen to crystalline or solid form. Then, in the bumpy approach at lower levels, as the fuel warmed, the melting contaminant began to circulate in the relatively small amount of fuel remaining, forming a slush that could impede the fuel flow to the engines. This is only a pilot theory and there is no positive evidence for it from any official source.


User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40296 times:

Two dumb questions, please:

1. At a stretch, would this be considered a CFT ?

2. Curious - could this be a catastrophic software glitch? The T7 software is UNIX based, I think?

Talk about a close shave! Thank God it didn't happen five seconds sooner ...


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27122 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40227 times:



Quoting Gh123 (Reply 3):
What will the damage be to the twin engine concept - mainly the 787 and A350.

I dont think that any damage has been done to be honest. Joe public doesnt even know what a 787/A350 or 777 even is . They just book their ticket and check in . If the A/C had have crashed killing people then it might have been an issue but next week I doubt we will even see it on the news until the next detailed report comes out. If anything people are saying that it must be a good plane to survive what it did !!


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40173 times:



Quoting Gh123 (Reply 3):
What will the damage be to the twin engine concept - mainly the 787 and A350.

It's not my perception I'm concerned about but the media are certainly going to influence the public's opinions on twin engine aircraft - that is where the damage will be!!

Wouldn't that depend on the cause? If it's something that would affect any number of engines, e.g. contaminated fuel, computer fault, I guess it wouldn't affect twin engine operations in particular.

Quoting Ukair (Reply 6):
I thought the captain was supposed to take over if there was an emergency

It's my untrained understanding that the Captain is expected to make the best judgement at the time based on the circumstances. That may or may not include taking control at a very late stage.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40055 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 11):
Wouldn't that depend on the cause? If it's something that would affect any number of engines, e.g. contaminated fuel, computer fault, I guess it wouldn't affect twin engine operations in particular.

I would think that, given all of China's other bad PR when it comes to quality control of late, that contaminated fuel - if that turns out to be the cause - would hurt China a lot more than it'll hurt twin-engine airplanes.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineRC135X From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40092 times:

Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 214):
Having said this, I still find it astonishing that the Capt. let the F/O continue to handle the approach (or whatever passed for one). My instinct would have been to yell "I've got it!" and take over. But then, I'm not an airline pilot, so I dont know what sort of procedures they have for situations like this. Can a pilot on the forum shed any light on this?



This is understandable. Still, speaking as a heavy multi-engine jet PIC, there are often good, compelling reasons NOT to take control of the aircraft, some of which obtain in this situation: extremely limited time to act, confusion over inputs, delay in relinquishing control, out-of-sync inputs leading to PIO, PNF priorities higher than flying the airplane (such as attempting an engine restart or other critical systems management), and even the very real awareness that the PF is doing exactly what the PIC would do so why change?

Some of my PIC colleagues are very quick to take control from the PNF, and I think that is largely a matter of flying style or technique rather than of procedure or preferred judgement. I also believe from experience that my own decision to take over is influenced by the experience of the PF and how well that person is doing in the situation. In some cases, it has made sense to allow even an inexperienced pilot to continue "stick and rudder" flying while I handled the overall emergency, even in time-critical circumstances. The PF can be very focused on flying, whereas the PNF has a "bigger picture" and can be of more value by providing verbal guidance.

It is also worth noting that in some cases I followed through on the controls without saying anything to the PF---a nudge on the yoke or a bump on the throttles. There is a fringe, grey area in CRM where talking is a waste of time and an immediate non-verbal action is all that's necessary.

Ultimately, the BA038 captain's actions in allowing the senior first officer to continue the approach and landing appear to be vindicated: everyone walked away and the airplane might be repaired. If, upon detailed analysis, the CVR and FDR show that this short landing was not inevitable, then the PIC may be faulted for a lapse in judgement. Until then, I'll wait for the profile to show up in the full-motion simulator some day when I'm not expecting it and see how well I can do under the circumstances.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5673 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 40060 times:



Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
1. At a stretch, would this be considered a CFT ?

No, because the airplane was not responding to the inputs of the pilots, therefore, it was uncontrolled. Even at a stretch.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39983 times:



Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
1. At a stretch, would this be considered a CFT ?

Not if it was proven that the engines didn't respond. The engines were "out of control" CFT is more of a case of the airplane is perfectly fine, but the pilots screwed up or lost situational awareness.


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39985 times:



Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
2. Curious - could this be a catastrophic software glitch? The T7 software is UNIX based, I think?

If it is, it would be extremely distantly related to UNIX, its more likely to be based on a heavily adapted, proven and mature variant of something like VxWorks, LynuxWorks or similar.


User currently offlineGoingAround From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39994 times:

After a post in the last thread regarding the softer grass being the 'saving grace' in this incident, it got me wondering.

If the aircraft made it to the threshold, and touched down ON the runway, could the damage possibly be less severe? After all, the undercarriage would absorb much of the shock of the impact (rather than shearing off as is the case with this incident) and although there would almost certainly be serious structural damage from such a hard touch down, would the aircraft have remained in 1 piece/would the gear collapse anyway? It would have come to a stop in a less dramatic way if it was allowed to 'roll out' on the runway (assuming ofcourse the aircraft wouldn't overrun further down the runway)

Any ideas?


User currently offlineKhaleej777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39910 times:

An astonishing report on BBC News website of a passenger whining about inadequate treatment by BA staff after the incident. The moron seems to have expected afternoon tea to be served on the apron and the attending emergency services to put down their foam cannisters and fetch his case out of the hold. He also complains that there were no counsellors available immediately to offer passengers help. As if there's a room down a terminal corridor somewhere at Heathrow with a rapid response crack team of counsellors and therapists twiddling their thumbs waiting for a big plane crash to give them something to do. If this is the calibre of passenger flight attendants and ground staff have to deal with on a daily basis, they have my sincerest sympathies. Absolutely astonishing.

From BBC News
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7196128.stm

"I asked if tea and coffee could be arranged and this fell on deaf ears. We had to be escorted if we wanted to go to the toilet. It felt like the staff were more interested in security than our wellbeing," he said.

Mr Tamburro said he and his two travelling companions had to leave their hand luggage in their overhead lockers on the aeroplane and so had no money or personal belongings on them but nobody was able to help them. He said: "No one seemed to know what they were doing and did not seem to take the baggage need into account.

"All we were given was a printed leaflet with advice on counselling. Given that we had just survived a major air crash I found it unbelievable that there was no counselling available in the lounge", he said.


User currently offline777222 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39836 times:

Per the AAIB: "...the aircraft was established on an ILS approach to Runway 27L at London Heathrow. Initially the approach progressed normally, with the Autopilot and Autothrottle engaged, until the aircraft was at a height of approximately 600 ft and 2 miles from touch down.."

Can anyone with knowledge comment as to whether BA's Standard Operating Procedures include leaving the AutoPilot engaged so close to touchdown? I would have thought that by this point, the Pilot Flying would be doing just that - flying - and not leaving it to the AutoPilot. But, I'm not an experienced pilot, so it's only a question. There's been no mention of this being a CAT-II or CAT-III AutoLand, or a proficiency flight, or anything else that would mandate an AutoLand, so why then is the AutoPilot still engaged at this late stage?



To fly is to live.
User currently offlineEMA747 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 1171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39818 times:

The contaminated fuel theory is quite interesting and plausible. I think there would have to be quite a lot of slushy stuff in the tanks to cause a fuel flow issue bearing in mind there was probably quite a bit of reserve and divert fuel still in the tanks. For it to clog both engines at exactly the same time would seem unlikely?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
I dont think that any damage has been done to be honest. Joe public doesn't even know what a 787/A350 or 777 even is . They just book their ticket and check in . If the A/C had have crashed killing people then it might have been an issue but next week I doubt we will even see it on the news until the next detailed report comes out. If anything people are saying that it must be a good plane to survive what it did !!

I agree. For one the British media don't really seem to be blaming anyone at the moment. They have been trying to get a few experts to say things they can use to hype it up a bit but on the whole they seem very neutral.



Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39796 times:

Latest release:


Fair use:

Giving details of its initial investigation, the Air Accidents Investigations Branch (AAIB) said: "At approximately 600 ft and two miles from touch down, the Autothrottle demanded an increase in thrust from the two engines but the engines did not respond."

"Following further demands for increased thrust from the Autothrottle, and subsequently the flight crew moving the throttle levers, the engines similarly failed to respond."

The AAIB said the flight had been normal until the plane made its final approach for landing. It said 13 people had been injured, one passenger seriously.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080118/wl_nm/britain_heathrow_dc_14



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39770 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Quoting Comorin (Reply 225):
Given that you are decelerating, you certainly want to lean back on your rear-acing seat seat and not lean forward - opposite of a front-facing seat.

Right up until a lap top computer hits you in the face and shatters your skull.

You're right if the plane is flying backwards  Smile

I am sure BA has thought about this longer than either of us so I'll go with their brace instructions.


User currently offlineGh123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39768 times:

Quoting GoingAround (Reply 17):
If the aircraft made it to the threshold, and touched down ON the runway, could the damage possibly be less severe

Well assuming the the landing gear did collapse then the friction between metal and asphalt would mean that there would have been sparks and heat, increasing the risk of a fire or infact certainly creating one. Remember there was a fuel leak.

[Edited 2008-01-18 12:29:40]

User currently offline777DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 39707 times:

All the flight systems software is custom, no disk, network or program loader The 777 AIMS runs on top of a Honeywell written micro-kernel (APEX), which handles basic memory management and task dispatch. There is NO "OS" on any of the avionics systems ( EEC, PFC, AIMS, FMC, ....).

25 Post contains images 2H4 : By that rationale, gliders are completely uncontrolled every moment they're aloft. After all...they respond rather poorly to power inputs, do they no
26 David L : I'm sure a pro will chip in but we've heard some here talk about disengaging the autopilot as low as 50'. Again an "I'm not a pilot" warning but I be
27 Glbltrvlr : That may be true, but that isn't the official definition of CFIT: It's established that the pilots were well aware of the impending disaster.
28 Badge : The SOP for a 777 is to leave the Auto throttle engaged it goes to idle at I believe 10ft above the runway at which point it can be disengaged. You do
29 Moo : You have in fact just described an OS perfectly. Just because it doesn't resemble an OS you are used to does not mean what runs is not actually an OS
30 787EWR : I am not a pilot, but I would like to add the theory that the failure happened just before landing. The PIC might have felt that it was more importan
31 Queso : None. We don't know that whatever caused this failure might not have also been possible with a 4-engine design as well.
32 TristarSteve : The B777 has water sensors in each tank. But they do not generate Status messages, only messages on the maintenance page. Pilots do not look at these
33 Smokeyrosco : If it was fuel contamination, would we not have seen problems on other aircraft by now? Not sure I buy that either.
34 MD80fanatic : Not sure about the contaminated fuel idea. Kerosene is not exactly the cleanest disillate from petroleum. Impurities can be expected, some even visibl
35 Hawker : When I was taught to fly "established on late final" meant you were stabilised on the glideslope at the correct speed and attitude. Consequently unles
36 Pihero : A/P should be disengaged at 200 ft AGL, unless LAND 2 or LAND 3 is announced. We don't know the status of that approach.
37 Teme82 : Yeah in the Part 4 I raised this issue but it seems that no one is ready to think it as an possibility!
38 EMA747 : Plus if I am right in assuming that fuel is stored in large quantities then they could just request a sample of the fuel that is still in the stores
39 Milan320 : About as long as it took for the A343. A343 entered service in 1993 with LH and had it's first serious accident in YYZ in 2005 777-200 entered servic
40 Post contains images Speedbird2779 : RC135X Brilliant description of the situation .... ... like the old flight engineer's hands, we've all experienced that advantageous magic movement to
41 VC-10 : After a 12Hr? flt from China any frozen contaminants would have still been frozen on the appr due to the cold soak taken them down to at least -30. T
42 Tdscanuck : None so far. If both engines went down at the same time it's almost certainly a common mode failure, which would affect a twin, trijet, or quad equal
43 Airbazar : Doubt it. For now this doesn't appear to be an engine failure. Whatever was the root cause, it had to be something that is common to both engines. If
44 Pihero : We call that *being stabilised*, and if you had landing configuration established , above 1,000 ft AGL and landing check-list completed, you don't ne
45 Checksixx : Controlled aircraft, uncontrolled decent...it has to be worded properly. At this time, it appears the aircraft was controllable and after the thrust r
46 Jetlife2 : This may be semantics and probably off-topic from the main purpose of the thread but I feel the need to comment. There _is_ an OS, but it is a custom
47 Spacecadet : Well, the problem I have with it is the same as someone else up there earlier in the thread - why only this plane? Lots of planes flew out of Beijing
48 AM744 : I would think it's a proprietary real-time operating system. "Applications" like brake control, FMS, navigational systems, etc. is developed in ADA p
49 Jetlife2 : More important semantics: The autothrottle (aircraft system) demands thrust. [well technically it demands EPR or N1 depending on aircraft configurati
50 Post contains images David L : Oops. Since I covered autoland separately, the 50' was in relation to a manual landing. As it turns out, 50' was incorrect, anyway.
51 Tangowhisky : I was last in seeing Part V and posted last on Part IV. But could it be a software glitch of the FADEC? recently GE powered 777 had an AD issued due t
52 Teme82 : Well the fuel is liquid so if there would be some "crap" in it it would be at the bottom of the storage tank. And it's possible that the fuel for thi
53 Pihero : Let's face it, David. You are an Airbus specialist... Now is the time for your Boeing 777 conversion course !
54 Post contains images KELPkid : If it is, it is probably based on QNX, which is quite proven in mission-critical environments. Other than that tidbit of knowledge, I have no more in
55 Post contains images David L : Well, I clearly know more about Airbus than I do about feet.
56 Checksixx : My own wording was off...thanks for the correction! You're absolutely correct...
57 HOOB747 : For everyone shocked with the notion of the First Officer flying the plane on approach, this is not uncommon. And at 600 feet, or at 6000 feet, the sa
58 LTU932 : Why should this damage the concept of the twin-engined aircraft in the eyes of public perception? This kind of problem could have happened on any oth
59 RFields5421 : This incident took what - 15-20 seconds from indication of a problem to the plane hit the ground. During an approach where the FO is flying - the PIC
60 RFields5421 : Okay - I'm missing something. I see several posts talking about engine failure - yet nowhere in the AAIB document is there anything about the engines
61 SXDFC : Hey In any case the First Officer still got the plane on the ground and well at least everyone survived, I also thought the same thing about the Capta
62 Post contains links David L : No, you're right. The BBC, for example, cited "engine failure" but the AAIB report simply stated that the engines were unresponsive to autothrottle a
63 Cedarjet : I couldn't blame the pilots fast enough yesterday - it HAD to be fuel exhaustion, cos there was no fire, no publically-known software or other fault
64 VC-10 : You are overlooking the fact the source of the fuel in each wing was the same - a fuel farm in China. That is not to say the fuel contamination is th
65 Post contains links Zeke : Accident to Boeing 777-236, G-YMMM at London Heathrow Airport on 17 January 2008 - Initial Report Initial Report AAIB Ref: EW/C2008/01/01 Accident Air
66 Vfw614 : Saw an animated re-enactment of the approach on one of the TV stations and to add some spice to it, there were aircraft added lining up for take-off o
67 RFields5421 : There is no indication in the AAIB report that the engines lost power or failed to continue to provide power. Only that they did not increase power w
68 Cedarjet : But the real question is, when we have what is apparently a software / electrical problem, likely caused by an unrequested signal to the engines, FADE
69 Pihero : That'a a systems limitation, Mister. As for,in this case, leaving an A/p programmed for a normal ILS contihue the flight amounts to suicide. I'm glad
70 Zeke : I should add, this is not the first time the 777 has had autothrust problems, an emergency AD was previously issued : "We have received a report of tw
71 Post contains images David L : Nit-picking but wouldn't the report suggest the opposite - a requested signal not achieving the desired response? No idea about your theory, though..
72 Viscount724 : What did those incidents have to do with ETOPS? Running out of fuel has no relationship to the number of engines, as evidenced by the UA DC-8-61 that
73 Pihero : Zeke, Was it the one related to the use of FLCH before flap retraction and IAS < Vref + 80 ?[Edited 2008-01-18 14:38:15]
74 AFGMEL : I think the press are (as usual) misinterpreting "failure to respond" as "engine failure". Big difference, but possibly same result.
75 Singapore_Air : Safety fears over crash jet's alarm failure: * Source reveals warning system faults * Engines failed two miles from runway Dan Milmo and Sam Jones 619
76 Tdscanuck : It's very unlikely that that same fuel is still at PEK...that's a busy airport and they turn over fuel very quickly. However, they should have the la
77 ANCFlyer : It won't . . . most of the flying public - as mentioend earlier - won't know a 787/A350 from a DC3 . . . they just get on and go. Those that DO know
78 Merkuree : The video posted on you tube of the approaching 777 appears to indicate short bursts of increased heat exhaust from the #2 engine during the sequence.
79 Starglider : Just a thought, if fuel turns out not to be a factor. With both engines simultaneously failing to respond to throttle lever movement, could EMI from a
80 Moo : Further to the 'fuel contamination' theories that seem to be doing the rounds and the discussions regarding which fuel tank is emptied first (centre a
81 Teme82 : Well it's a small possibility that the batch of fuel for this flight was the last batch from the storage tank in PEK so it's possible that there were
82 2H4 : Clearly, we have different definitions of "under control" and "out of control". If the aircraft truly was "out of control", as you seem to be arguing
83 SXDFC : The Census information of " Mike Mike" has her already listed as a W/O. I am not sure if this information is 100% accurate?
84 David L : Well, I think we can all agree, in layman's terms, that the slower an aircraft flies, the higher the nose has to be to maintain vertical speed and wh
85 Bobbidooley : If the high deck angle / AOA was needed to clear the road and the pilots commanded the AC to the point it would stall, would the FBW reject the reques
86 Spacecadet : I have been tempted to speculate that the the pilot may have been fighting with the auto-pilot in various replies I've made but have held back, and a
87 Glideslope : Time will tell, however I'll admit I thought about it. Never rule out some type of electronic force directed near the AC from the ground either ( not
88 Scarebus03 : If both engines didn't respond with either auto or manual command signals it's more likely there was a sensor failure on both engines due to icing or
89 Teme82 : now IF it would happen to Airbus I think that the computer systems would not allow it and we would have casualties ... But that's one big IF!!!
90 UAL747 : The approach video has been taken off youtube....or it's at least not showing up on my favorites. Edit: Nope, it's officially off youtube.... I wonder
91 Eastern747 : If the fuel was contaminated,would there be other aircraft affected which fueled from the same underground supply. If it was fueled by a tanker, aren'
92 Merkuree : Thanks for the reply. Yes, let me clarify. Not so much that the pilot was fighting the autopilot. But the system which links the AP to the engine con
93 Post contains images Teme82 : See my reply #81 I theory I could just affect just one flight not the others...
94 Khobar : Although the initial reports state that data from the FDR was downloaded successfully, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the initial conclusi
95 Starlionblue : I love that BBC graphic. Looks like the aircraft dive bombed the ground! Indeed. Of course there's an OS. OS less computers are a thing of the past. A
96 Post contains links Khobar : I don't know if anyone saw this: "I took pictures of it as it hit the ground, and as soon as it touched down I was running towards it to get more pict
97 Pihero : I'm not sure investigators will only base their initial findings on crew perceptions. There is a tool that's a lot more accurate when you need to dea
98 Post contains links Cubastar : Flight Global Article shows photographs of Left (#1) engine and states that the condition of the engine indicates that it was developing at least some
99 Jetfuel : I have not posted re this flight yet. BUT lets consider the 777 systems and look at what we know. Whether we like to admit it or not it's all pointing
100 Awthompson : At last, in the fifth part, some-one has mentioned one of the possibilities which must be high on the agenda for BA 038. In fact this was my suspicio
101 Moo : I point to my questions in reply 80 -
102 Cubastar : I believe that is was an Electrical Failure on the Qantas Flight, not the loss of four engines.
103 Jetfuel : And I may point to the fact that any fuel that was reported as being spilled on the crash site may well have been unusable fuel. ie. fuel that can not
104 Awthompson : I'll check that one out. Flight International referred to "loss of all power" in the Qantas Bangkok incident which I guess could have been engine pow
105 Jetfuel : QF2 lost electrical power only. Engines were operating fine. Seriously, there was limited fuel on the crash site after all the impact so I am even mo
106 Post contains images Halls120 : Both of those were on takeoff, with a different engine and a different model 777. Oh, and they only referred to one engine having an autothrust probl
107 Philipkk : Funny, there's a longer (or so I think) version of it now. If this one's taken off too, the same video is present on the Sky News site.
108 NAV20 : Unfortunately the AAIB Report leaves out a couple of important (and readily-available) pieces of information. It says at one point:- "....the aircraf
109 Awthompson : I read from this that water/moisture contamination in electrics would have a random outcome depending on where on the aircraft the contamination occu
110 Coa747 : I know we are in the age of FADEC but is it within the realm of possibilities that the engines flamed out in a similar circumstance to a TACA 737 in N
111 SBN580 : Thus something in the greater flight control system failed, specifically the engine control system. Something in which the software that controls thr
112 Singapore_Air : Could I just ask what a FADEC is? Also, no one think much of the Guardian article quoted in Reply 75 regarding the alarm system?
113 SWISSER : Just saw "it" lying there while on approach into LHR's 27R, Whatever happened, as a "professional" in these area's I'am glad that all this training an
114 Post contains links FlyboyOz : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7196172.stm There's a guy who took lots of photos of the BA777's landing during the time of the acci
115 Pihero : No. Airbus has an autothrust, Boeing still uses the term *autothrottle*. The differences between the two are a matter of semantics. until you come to
116 F4f3a : its stantard on most boeings that the lowest hight to disengage for a manual landing 150' agl for an ils. BA are unusual in that they fly monitored ap
117 SWISSER : It's basically a sytem that controls the engines performaces in certain conditions so the (auto)pilots can't damage it.
118 Post contains images Zkpilot : Water leaked from the cracked drain tray in the First Class Galley between doors 1 and entered the electronics bay causing electrical failure on the
119 Glbltrvlr : Full Authority Digital Engine Control
120 ANCFlyer : Brought up in one of the other threads - and dismissed. You know, what Swisser says here speaks volumes for the crew . . . I've got a LOT of miles in
121 Pihero : Problem is that whether on manual or automatics, the system goes though the thrust levers, as per the AOM : "...Each engine is controlled by an elect
122 Tdscanuck : I'm not sure how applicable that AD is to this situation...the FADEC's are completely different between the two engines. They do share common flight
123 Post contains links Vega9000 : Interesting points in the guardian article. Doesn't explain why the engines lost power, though... http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,,2243357
124 Boeing764 : Gordon Brown, the British PM, was delayed leaving London due to the accident. What airline and aircraft type was serving as the aircraft for the PM's
125 Pihero : Are you sure that what you wrote is BA SOP ? No. Just think about the AOM excerpt I posted on my previous post. Me being in a sarcastic mood, I find
126 BuyantUkhaa : The vertical speed of impact must have been high for the MLG to go through the wing. Landing on a runway would, in that respect, have been the same.
127 RFields5421 : The one thing I see is that it stalled at 10 ft AGL and dropped - danged good job of the pilot getting it that close. The other is speculation that t
128 Glbltrvlr : This para especially. I assume it came from the prelim report:
129 Catdaddy63 : Just what I was thinking. Does the FDR monitor the FADEC input at the engine or just at the physical throttle lever? It could be plausible that the t
130 SWISSER : Thats a great signature btw! I remember in The Daily Mail a witness said he heard an unusual loud engine noise and thats when he first noticed the 77
131 EMA747 : When the 777 is on final approach and at computed landing speed how much power is actually being used? If the engines are working very little how quic
132 Starlionblue : A bit like modern car engines. In the old days, you could easily flood the engine, you had to use choke to start it, etc... Now the engine management
133 Merkuree : can anyone explain/articulate the systems which link the autopilot and fadec to powerplants (or if there is another central engine management system o
134 RJ777 : It was a BA 744.
135 Racko : Dual Engine Failure would immediately cause the aircraft to switch off normal law, disabling the alpha protections. Outcome would have been the same.
136 Zkpilot : Not to take away from the crew, they did an excellent job, but with an intact fuselage, 8 operating doors and only 130 or something pax onboard with
137 SKAirbus : Remember that the AF incident at YYZ was different to that in Heathrow because a) the aircraft overran the runway and b) because of where the aircraf
138 ANCFlyer : No question However, one must consider, light load, intact fuselage, blah, blah, blah - an UNANNOUNCED emergency evac. Spectacular. Simple as that.
139 Khobar : The QAR would provide raw data. I know they have tools to interpret this data, but the conclusions - at this point - seem to contradict the physical
140 RedFlyer : It's relevant to certain people because it's Boeing and Boeing is an American company. If in fact both engines lost power, one has to look at what's
141 HOOB747 : That's what I've been telling everyone who asks me about this incident. Hello, would you have actually wanted to be on that plane 500 feet off the gr
142 SKAirbus : If this has happened before, albeit with one engine and a GE engine I think airlines have to iniciate an inspection of their fleets.... Although i am
143 Zeke : From AAIB As I clearly said, the emergency AD was not applicable to the 772ER with RR engines at the time. That does not mean it will not be amended
144 UPSMD11 : That could be the case but if the landing gear were stuck down in the mud and suddenly hit the concrete that probably goes anywhere from 2-10 feet in
145 SunriseValley : For what? Please be specific. I am sure that the regulator will order this if there are solid grounds and specific matters to inspect for.
146 UAL-Fan : The 777 crashed, held together, didn't catch on fire and everyone calmly walked away from it. Yes, I do have a very changed opinion of the Twin Jet 77
147 ScrubbsYWG : i wonder how much the not catching on fire had to do with design, rather than circumstance.
148 Threepoint : I think it's safe to say that under identical conditions, any of the modern airliners in regular service would have retained a similar degree of pass
149 Post contains images LTU932 : My point exactly. After all, nobody stopped flying the A330, nor has any airline grounded their entire A330 fleet after the incident with TS 236 in T
150 Comorin : To sum up so far, it seems that none of the reasons mentioned in this thread or by the press (fuel, birds, weather) are candidates anymore. This leave
151 Ikramerica : We can't know that, and frankly, history doesn't support this. Ask AF. I am not impugning any aircraft, only pointing out that their A340 did catch f
152 RedFlyer : Did I miss something? I know I've had a few beers tonight, and that I've deliberately ignored posts by certain members who have a biased streak, but
153 Post contains images ZTagged : I'd like to know this myself, sans birds. Birds can be ruled out because the plane lacks, well, birdguts on the engines. Fuel contamination/freezing/
154 RedFlyer : I find it ironic that the first crash in commercial service of the A330/A340 series and the B777 both happened while landing and both resulted in the
155 Post contains images WhoopWhoop : If both engines did indeed fail to respone simultaniously its sounding more and more like an electronic glitch to me that amazignly happend to take ou
156 PYP757 : Same here! Can't believe those who are saying they won't fly the 777 until they find out what happened. Even after this accident, this is still one o
157 Merkuree : Is there a flight regime in the B777 where: - the A/P can be set to acquire and maintian the glideslope, while - the thrust control / ems be set at a
158 Gearup : Agreed but I would say that the AF incident in YYZ was all the more remarkable for several reasons. Firstly the A340 ended up in a deep ravine (one t
159 Post contains images ZTagged : Very true. Maybe all those improvements aren't so silly after all?
160 Jtl11968 : How do you move an aircraft without wheels off the runway?
161 Merkuree : How do you move an aircraft without wheels off the runway? I guess it depends on the size of aircraft....... airbags and specialized low loaders......
162 RFields5421 : They start with cranes, inflatible air bags and will have her up on dolly's very quickly. This is done several times a year somewhere around the worl
163 AirNZ : What change in terrain?
164 Threepoint : The AF incident in YYZ and this incident are not at all similar in terms of obstacles on the ground. The A340 broke up and burned because it overran
165 RayChuang : From what I've read, G-YMMM appears to be a total write off, with the plane likely parted out for spare parts (BA will probably keep most of the salva
166 WingedMigrator : This may reveal the difference between plowing across flat open grass and plowing into a ravine, rather than any difference between the 777 and the A
167 Starlionblue : Design of the fuel if nothing else. Jetfuel doesn't burn easily. But as others have said, the landing gear will not puncture the fuel tanks if it goe
168 Kaitak : It's definitely a w/o, but as you say, there will be many parts - particularly cabin furnishings and instruments - which can be re-used. The next bat
169 CHRISBA777ER : Do you have a source for this?
170 Kaitak : Does anyone know what time the aircraft is to be lifted? Last night's news showed cranes being erected at either side of it; I thought it was going to
171 Dl757md : Not true. All boost pumps are normally on and the scavenge pumps will therefor operate normally as long as the boost pumps are running. The fuel boos
172 Zeke : Last I heard the cranes are going to lift the aircraft for the AAIB to continue their investigation to around/under the aircraft, not to move it.
173 Babybus : As Jetlife2 says this isn't an engine problem it's an aircraft avionics problem. Engines do as you ask them as long as they are switched on and conne
174 F4f3a : reply 123 , yes pretty sure thats sop . Also the 777 has had had an incident after it came in where the pilots accidently knocked a switch that put th
175 Acabgd : You must read the information presented more attentively. The engines didn't fail.
176 ChristianLee15 : If the aircraft wasn't responding to any engine control, surely that'd be the same on a 4 engined aircraft?
177 Fiatstilojtd : If this accident was not caused by a pilot error then I think that British Airways will gain a lot "respect" back from the average joe public which th
178 Post contains images David L : As far as I know (not a pilot), the auto-throttle doesn't have a "descent/low power" setting but adjusts the thrust to achieve or maintain the select
179 Post contains links Voodoo : Hard to keep up with what has been covered but: http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,,2243357,00.html
180 Cpd : I find it quite hard to believe that such a thing (if it exists) isn't guarded so you must physically lift the guard before you can do anything with
181 Kay : Quoting Gh123 (Reply 3): What will the damage be to the twin engine concept - mainly the 787 and A350. It's not my perception I'm concerned about but
182 Acabgd : Engines are ni GA mode when landing, which of course doesn't mean they are at full power, but rather ready to provide maximum power if needed for a g
183 Starglider : A possibility for any of the components communicating thru the buses, with the emphasis on "somehow" . . . . At this stage nothing can or should be r
184 ThirtyEcho : Thank you, John Wayne. Maybe you should slap the pilot flying, as well? Great move at 600' AGL. Once you "got it," please tell us what you would have
185 David L : I understand that the power is relatively high due to the high drag configuration but aren't they still maintaining the selected airspeed during land
186 Moo : A couple of people have noted the discrepancies between the damage sustained by the fan blades of the two engines - one supposedly indicating it was e
187 Post contains images David L : RC135X was quoting someone else. His own response followed on after the first paragraph.
188 Post contains images Starlionblue : More like 25-30 years I believe. But your point holds true nonetheless. David, you know I know as little as you. But I do believe you are correct.
189 Acabgd : You are confusing operating mode and power setting. On takeoff the engine is in TO (or TO/GA) mode, but might only be producing 85% power due to dera
190 Post contains images David L : Ah, OK. I just wasn't aware of that GA mode.
191 Post contains images Halls120 : except, of course, that it was a different engine on a different model aircraft on takeoff, not landing, and it affected only one engine. But yes, I
192 Reggaebird : Does anyone find it strange that there is no acknowledgement of this major incident on Boeing's web site? Normally, they make a statement at least tou
193 Wah64d : This strikes me as a pretty ill-advised statement not to mention being unjustifiably derogatory to the competence of the crew. Any increase in drag (
194 Post contains links Bongodog1964 : AAIB have now published their interim report http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_ne..._january_2008___initial_report.cfm
195 UPSMD11 : From the mud to the concrete, not a hill or anything. I can see the pictures and I know it's flat. But the concrete starts at some point and if the w
196 SEPilot : Just as much damage as was done to the four engine concept by having two accidents (China Airlines and El Al) where an engine fell off, struck anothe
197 Airfoilsguy : If the plane was "in control" it would have landed on the runway and this incedent would never have happened.
198 Yanqui67 : This is some info on how the 777 interfaces the engines with the aircraft. The engines are FADEC and are controilled by an EEC. The EEC runs on a ARIN
199 Cumulus : Saw a brief clip of the 777 landing taken by some bloke with his camera phone,any links to it?
200 Post contains links RayChuang : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7196208.stm
201 Beaucaire : That clip has disappeared..
202 NA : That were freighters. Not much in focus of the ordinary passenger. I think that both engines shut down is the most feared thing one can experience on
203 Mcdu : Hawker, On what Transport Category aircraft were you trained in such a manner? You will almost always have power adjustments during the last two mile
204 David L : You'll find it here:
205 AirNZ : Cheers John, and whilst I certainly see what you could have been meaning I have to respectfully disagree. From both the interim reports, and photogra
206 SEPilot : But it could have happened just the same to passenger planes. If a 2 engined freighter went down because of two unrelated engine failures don't you t
207 RayChuang : One possible option is the cut frequencies on certain routes but try to keep up capacity by replacing the 777-200ER with the 747-400, as you said. I
208 Queso : Have they attempted to move the plane yet? Or have they even decided what they are going to do about moving it?
209 SEPilot : As an engineer I have learned to make decisions based on evidence, not emotion. The evidence is that a plane is more likely to crash due to mechanica
210 NA : That what I wonder also. In Honkong they once blew off the tail of a stricken 747 which was in the way. Most people make decisions on emotional reaso
211 APFPilot1985 : What does the number of engines have to do with bumpiness? What would you do if you had a bumpy flight on a 747 or A380? Only fly Tri-Jets?
212 SEPilot : Or singles?
213 NA : I only said that the 777 didn´t offer me any positive reason to choose it again. Of cause bumpy flights have basically nothing to do with the aircraf
214 Post contains images Airfoilsguy : Classic
215 Pihero : I really, but really, wish you'd stop posting TOTALLY INACCURATE, WRONG information on this site. It is enough to deal with uneducated guesses, but n
216 Acelanzarote : Have Boeing sent staff to LHR to look/help in the removal of the 777? Is there any chance it may be repaired?
217 Comorin : The press reports and interviews with aviation professionals on BBC, Times and Guardian websites, along with the evolving thoughts in this thread are
218 Theginge : Yes, I believe they had someone in the UK already on Thursday and then more arrived from Seattle yesterday.
219 Post contains links Comorin : Redflyer, Here's a link that is dismissive of fuel, birds and weather: http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,,2243370,00.html
220 RC135X : I trust that you referring to the original quote in my message, where an A.netter was asking why it was inappropriate that his non-pilot instinct wou
221 David L : Wasn't that more to do with the investigation? Thanks! I was having difficulty understanding why the engines would need a mode that makes them ready
222 Post contains links VV701 : Apparenty one Boeiing technician happened to be over here and others have since arrived. A Times article claims: "The AAIB has identified that the pr
223 Post contains images Ikramerica : I was on a plane with an engine failure, 757 DL JFK-LAX that landed in LAS. Nobody was panicked, most people didn't even know what had happened. It w
224 David L : I think it's dismissive of a lack of fuel rather than of fuel contamination.
225 Post contains links OA260 : Hero Crash Pilot: 'I Feared Catastrophe' http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1301438,00.html
226 Post contains links Cloudyapple : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3216042.ece What could he have done "to keep it straight and stop it spinning off" when the gears have
227 David L : Rudder?
228 Cloudyapple : Rudder? Would that be effective considering you are belly flopping on the grass at low speed? I wonder why Hummers aren't fitted with rudders?
229 Post contains images David L : Well, the speed on impact would be higher than the speed when stopped . For normal runway operations, the rudder is effective above about 80 kts, I b
230 Moo : He did say 'I tried my best to keep it straight' - he would not have known with any certainty during the event that the gear was no longer an integra
231 David L : Ah, yes. I had assumed Cloudyapple was asking what he could have tried to do.
232 Post contains images Airfoilsguy : Hummers rarely go 160 knots. Some of the comments on this thread boggle the mind.
233 N318EA : I have been on flights where the Captain was much less experienced on the A/C type than the FO. While he is ultimately responsible, the FO may have be
234 Cloudyapple : Take it easy~ That was meant to be a joke whether you find it funny or otherwise :P
235 Post contains images Dehavalandb : For you Cessna 152 private pilots posting on this forum, maybe you should keep the second quessing and pilot critquing to a minimum. Stating the capta
236 AirPortugal310 : Well stated. Some of the comments on these boards are appalling at best....and yours is not one of them
237 CCA : I'm sorry but he's correct, the Thrust Reference Mode would have been GA, the Auto throttle would be in SPD mode. On the 777 TO/GA is armed when flap
238 Post contains links B747forever : Continue here please; BA B772 Crash Lands At LHR - Part 6 (by B747forever Jan 19 2008 in Civil Aviation)
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 3 posted Thu Jan 17 2008 12:29:37 by Srbmod
BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 2 posted Thu Jan 17 2008 06:58:20 by Pe@rson
BA 777 Off Runway At LHR posted Thu Jan 17 2008 05:03:31 by Virgin747LGW
BA Move To T5 At LHR To Be Staged. posted Thu Sep 21 2006 18:47:18 by TristarSteve
BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 2 posted Thu Jan 17 2008 06:58:20 by Pe@rson
BA 772 And BA 744 Wing Collision At LHR posted Tue Jan 10 2006 18:14:32 by Concorde001
BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR posted Wed Jul 21 2004 20:05:26 by EZYAirbus
BA To Use T5 At LHR posted Thu Nov 6 2003 13:25:58 by Aussie747
BA 777 Off Runway At LHR posted Thu Jan 17 2008 05:03:31 by Virgin747LGW
BA Move To T5 At LHR To Be Staged. posted Thu Sep 21 2006 18:47:18 by TristarSteve
BA 772 And BA 744 Wing Collision At LHR posted Tue Jan 10 2006 18:14:32 by Concorde001
BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR posted Wed Jul 21 2004 20:05:26 by EZYAirbus
SU Il-86 Crash Lands At DXB posted Sun Sep 23 2001 06:21:42 by Aviatsiya
BA To Use T5 At LHR posted Thu Nov 6 2003 13:25:58 by Aussie747
SU Il-86 Crash Lands At DXB posted Sun Sep 23 2001 06:21:42 by Aviatsiya
Showers At LHR BA Lounges posted Sun Dec 23 2007 21:44:17 by EddieDude
Showers At LHR BA Lounges posted Sun Dec 23 2007 21:44:17 by EddieDude
BA & UL A/C In Taxy Incident At LHR posted Mon Oct 15 2007 15:10:45 by Leezyjet
BA & UL A/C In Taxy Incident At LHR posted Mon Oct 15 2007 15:10:45 by Leezyjet
BA Never Reverse Thrust At LHR posted Wed Jul 21 2004 20:05:26 by EZYAirbus
BA To Use T5 At LHR posted Thu Nov 6 2003 13:25:58 by Aussie747
SU Il-86 Crash Lands At DXB posted Sun Sep 23 2001 06:21:42 by Aviatsiya
Showers At LHR BA Lounges posted Sun Dec 23 2007 21:44:17 by EddieDude
BA & UL A/C In Taxy Incident At LHR posted Mon Oct 15 2007 15:10:45 by Leezyjet