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Hawaiian Air Delay A350-XWB Purchase  
User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4211 posts, RR: 89
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9705 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

This was disclosed in a regulatory filing to the S.E.C.

Jan. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Hawaiian Airlines Inc. said it delayed and may scrap plans to buy as many as 24 Airbus SAS wide-body jets because of an impasse in talks with pilots.

The purchase, with a list price of $4.4 billion, was announced Nov. 28. Hawaiian, a unit of Honolulu-based Hawaiian Holdings Inc., disclosed the delay today in a U.S. regulatory filing.


[ END - Fair Use http://www.bloomberg.com ]

This appears to be a similar situation to when AC went through with their order for the 777/787. It appears that they need to reach agreement with the pilots prior to proceeding.

Any further details would be appreciated from our local A.netters

Thanks and Regards PanAm_DC10


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9654 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9689 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Let me guess, HA wants to pay the pilots the current wage (767) and the pilots want more $$$ to fly a bigger plane/more pax (A350)?

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31259 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9670 times:
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So this remains an MoU/LoI, I take it?

User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2369 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9558 times:

Th F/A union had an agreement yesterday. Waiting on the Pilots.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2568 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 9536 times:

The delay is in turning the MOU into a firm purchase order. Management is still negotiating with us (pilots) for an agreement on rates and work rules for the Airbus equipment. They have apparently reached an agreement with the flight attendants on the new planes.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 1):
Let me guess, HA wants to pay the pilots the current wage (767) and the pilots want more $$$ to fly a bigger plane/more pax (A350)?

Yes, that is the problem. Management has insisted on a 'no-cost-contract' for at least a year since regular negotiations started on our current contract. They're now asking for the same rates on the Airbus as the Boeing, a less-than 1% pay increase for current Captains, and a 10-20% pay cut for new-hire first officers, plus immediate binding arbitration on the contract. Pilots are asking for about a 2% increase this year, and 2% next year, with all widebody rates (767, A330, A350) to be equal. Also, no 'B' scale rate for new-hires, and mediation after 90 days to finish our contract negotiations. Management gave us a supposed 'firm' deadline for the Airbus MOU to expire of January 15th, but they have now extended that by several days, leading us to wonder how 'firm' that deadline was. If we do come up with an agreement, I think the original delivery schedule will hold.

My own opinion is that this is all merely negotiating pressure on us to try and hurry the process up. It's been a frustrating process all along with (from our perspective) management stonewalling on some low-cost items that are important to us, but of little importance to them. They've agreed to certain parts of the contract only to pull those away when agreeing to other parts. I sincerely hope we get this done; I'd love to see growth at Hawaiian. But I don't think it will come at the cost of pay and work-rule reductions for us, when management is giving out bonuses to themselves. (I know, that's a well-used line in many negotiations. But it does remain a sore point for many of us whose careers require labor contracts as the method of employment).

HAL

[Edited 2008-01-18 14:05:05]


One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9044 times:

Did not Delta go through this with their pilots when the 777 came on line. IIRC Delta nearly returned the 4-5 777's they had, or at least threatened to, unless an agreement was reached.

User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9031 times:



Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 5):
Did not Delta go through this with their pilots when the 777 came on line.

Indeed. That's why they have so few (8) 777-200ERs.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31259 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8874 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 6):
Indeed. That's why they have so few (8) 777-200ERs.

And helps explain why they bought so many (21) 767-400ERs?


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6961 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8841 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
And helps explain why they bought so many (21) 767-400ERs?

Probably. A good break for GE and a disappointment for RR. (And me!)


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8031 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8650 times:

I expect the deal to be reached soon, especially since this will expedite the conversion of the MoU to a firm order.

User currently offlinePohakuloa From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8588 times:

I hope this goes through soon because I honestly find it a joy to ride the airbus as opposed to the boeing. from the outside i think the 763 is much more of a "sexy looking" plane then the airbus, but i find it more comfortable inside the airbus. that is of course mainly because i am a large fellow and forced to buy 2 seats for travel. the airbus is more comfortable IMO. i know i will fly more when the fleet at HA comes in.


of course my suspicions are that they will put the first few a332 into international service (to sydney, manilla, and the south pacific) so i may be waiting a while longer.



Fast cars and 'Jet A' - such a sweet smell!
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8322 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
And helps explain why they bought so many (21) 767-400ERs?

No, their 764 order was placed in 1997 and always was for 21 764s. Had DL reacted to the 777 trouble by ordering more 764s, you'd probably see around 30 of them with DL these days (not that I would have a problem with that  Wink ). Having said that, IIRC DALPA also put up a stink over the then-proposed pay scales for the yet-to-be-delivered 738s and 764s as well.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8031 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7430 times:



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 11):
No, their 764 order was placed in 1997 and always was for 21 764s.

If I remember correctly, the 767-400ER order was specifically to replace the rapidly-aging L1011 fleet. Most routes flown by the 767-400ER nowadays used to be flown by the L1011.


User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6539 times:

If this is about the pilots wanting more pay for flying a lerger plane, but HA thinks they should be paid the same, would the 787 count as the same size as the 767 to the pilots? BBecause if so then they could just order the 787. It seems like it would make sense for them to buy the 787 but it seems like they went with airbus for a good reason, they need a new plane between now and when the 787/A350 arrives and Airbus had the A330 to offer and i guess boeing couldn't offer a new 767.

So would another plane solve the problem or will they continue to push the airbus order.


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1623 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6472 times:

No! It can't be! Stop! I just flew HA yesterday from SAN to HNL and as nice as that 767 was (with the new interior and all) I was thinking I can't wait for SAN to get airbus widebody service finally! And those big windows and all!

Don't disappoint us passengers! Come to an agreement, I'll pass a hat and take up a collection if it helps!


User currently offlineChgoflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5956 times:

sounds like Union bus drivers.


Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5415 times:

I don't understand why getting new planes is such a big issue to pilot's unions. Why don't pilots just get paid for the routes they fly, the longer the routes the more the pay... seems fair enough? It seems that turbine aircraft are all similar in complexity regardless of size.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of some union tactics as I feel many unions order members to take actions that only serve to preserve leadership's wealth and influence over their respective companies rather than moving in a direction that's good for the company as a whole. I belong to a union myself, but I felt I was strong-armed into joining. I either had the choice of joining the union or donating my union dues to charity, or not getting the job at all. Now, if leadership called for a strike tomorrow I'd have no choice but to stay home or be labeled a 'scab' or worse yet, beaten up. All the while my bills don't get paid and my credit goes down the toilet so that some people making 90k/year can make 95k plus benefits.

I think this yo-yoing of pay scales, especially in the only service industry notorious for razor thin margins is very dangerous and irresponsible. I mean as soon as an airline starts making a few bucks the unions start clamouring to raid the cookie jar with immediate effect rather than allowing the company to build a cash reserve for when times are rough again.



Then again, maybe it's because it's so easier still for airlines to file for bankruptcy and start again than to actually do good and prudent business. IMHO this leaves the American traveler with the short straw where the most expensive form of transportation in the country offers little in terms of reliability, consistency and comfort especially out of the country's mega-hubs which many are forced to go through anyway.



"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5277 times:

While I am far from pro-union, the concept of pay for size is very well established in the US airline industry.

The 763 and A350 are quite different planes weight and seat wise (which are the most common measures).

At the end of the day - HA pilots should be compensated more like other industry peers flying larger A330 or even arguably 777 rates which the A350 is targeted at also versus staying at what is at 757/767 industry rate for the new planes.

While I can appreciate HA's wanting a 'zero cost' agreement, its quite naive to think its pilot union would roll over with joy and swallow larger plane in return for no additional pay which would only put them further behind the ball in the industry in comparable sized aircraft. The unions offer for a combined 767-330-350 rate actually is pretty progressive and follows CO and UA which have managed to lump together aircraft pay rates in to categories getting away from individual per plane rates.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5260 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
At the end of the day - HA pilots should be compensated more like other industry peers flying larger A330 or even arguably 777 rates which the A350 is targeted at also versus staying at what is at 757/767 industry rate for the new planes.

No, I disagree. The airline industry is a business. Full stop. It is not a benevolent society to provide across-the-board equal pay for airline pilots across companies.

HA operates low yield vacation flights (albeit, scheduled, but low yield nonetheless) and, as such, requires a low cost base. The obvious economics of flying into a vacation market dictate LOWER pilot salaries for HA 763's vs 763 pilots of other airlines. Life is unfair, but too bad.

Given HA's poor profit history, perhaps the HA pilots should consider a more conciliatory stance wth their money-grabbing pay demands.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5229 times:



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 18):
HA pilots should consider a more conciliatory stance wth their money-grabbing pay demands.

Perhaps, if you knew a little about the history of HA's pilots and their already provided concessions you might not call them "money-grabbing". Anyhow how is a 2 year 4% increase money grabbing?

Yes each airlines circumstances need to be taken into account. Extremely successful companies like UPS and Fedex pay at the top of the industry, while the majors these days are only in the middle of the pact.

But yet that is no excuse for HA pilots flying ever larger planes without somesort of carrot. What they have proposed in not a massive new rate for the 350, but instead a single 767-330-350 rate which includes a 4% raise. Now if they happened to ask for 40% adjustment for the 350 only then maybe we could call it a 'money grab'.

Again there is lots of history here. The HA pilot group is far from trying to enrich themselves massively, and have done more then a few things for the company in the past.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5183 times:

When I last lived in Honolulu, some quarter century ago, it was very pro-labor and pro-union. Not sure if that's changed. If it hasn't, I suspect HA's pilots will get very favorable treatment in the media, and their issues will resonate with the public. Will that matter? I honestly don't know, but HA's management doesn't need the bad press.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26025 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

The funny part about all this is that Hawaiian should have engaged the unions Before announcing the planes, and not now after the fact which has led to this stand off.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4995 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
Perhaps, if you knew a little about the history of HA's pilots and their already provided concessions you might not call them "money-grabbing". Anyhow how is a 2 year 4% increase money grabbing?

I'm not really interested in the history of HA's pilots. What does interest me is the financial state of HA, and it is not strong. HA can ill-afford higher labour costs any time soon.

Incidently, a 2 year 4% increase is indeed a money grab, in light of the relatively precarious financial state of the airline, and without the promise of at least an equal productivity increase by the pilots. The pilots want a pay increase above inflation while offering nothing in return....they need to join the real world. There is no free ride any longer.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2568 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4846 times:



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 22):
Incidently, a 2 year 4% increase is indeed a money grab, in light of the relatively precarious financial state of the airline, and without the promise of at least an equal productivity increase by the pilots. The pilots want a pay increase above inflation while offering nothing in return....they need to join the real world. There is no free ride any longer.

Do not... EVER... assume you know what we have done for the company in the past until you become educated. We gave back immensely during the bankruptcy. Many of our pilots (me included) were on furlough years longer than expected because of 'productivity enhancements' required by the company. We are now flying so short-handed that recalls and double-time recalls are the norm. (Is that really the most efficient way to run an airline? Our management must think so). We are one of the most efficient pilot groups in the industry in terms of hours flown on average per pilot. There simply isn't more to give there. We also gave back in terms of vacation credit, sick time credit, and pro-ration of days off during vacation months. And you think we're asking for pay raises above inflation? Have you checked out the inflation rate in Hawaii vs. our last pay raise? We're certainly making less now than we did five years ago.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 18):
The obvious economics of flying into a vacation market dictate LOWER pilot salaries for HA 763's vs 763 pilots of other airlines. Life is unfair, but too bad.

We DO understand that we fly in a low-yield market. We don't make the same as other airlines in our market flying the same equipment, are not asking for the same pay rates as Delta or Northwest or Continental. But we are asking for good faith by a management that decided they were doing well enough to offer bonuses to most of the executive team. If the airline is doing that well, shouldn't we all benefit?

Quoting Dl767captain (Reply 13):
If this is about the pilots wanting more pay for flying a larger plane, but HA thinks they should be paid the same, would the 787 count as the same size as the 767 to the pilots?

I am not on the negotiating committee, but I'd bet the answer is yes, we'd fly the 787 for 767 rates if it seated about the same number of passengers.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 16):
I don't understand why getting new planes is such a big issue to pilot's unions. Why don't pilots just get paid for the routes they fly, the longer the routes the more the pay... seems fair enough? It seems that turbine aircraft are all similar in complexity regardless of size.

We do get paid by the route, or more precisely, by the flight hour. However aircraft complexity doesn't have that much to do with our pay; it has been a long-standing policy that pilots of bigger planes get paid more per hour. Why? Mainly because of the responsibility involved; not only for looking after the lives of the passengers, but for the security of the airline too. When I was flying 9 passengers at a time in a Piper Navajo around the wilds of northern Alaska, I had a much more complex job to do than I do now as a FO on a 767. But despite the pressure, hard work and complexity, the pay - and overall responsibility was less at my job in Alaska vs. now in Hawaii. Flying 300 people around in a $150M airplane is a large financial risk for the company. They want to ensure that they manage that risk by having the best available pilots flying that plane. One way to attract those pilots is with higher pay. Getting in the door and hired at a company that flies big planes is a goal of many pilots, in large part because of the pay. This allows the airline to be more selective in its hiring. And from the pilots point of view, yes we do feel a much greater sense of responsibility with each increase in aircraft size. The increasing pay is part of the reward for making it safely to being in the position of flying a large aircraft.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 22):
I'm not really interested in the history of HA's pilots.

I guess that pretty much covers it then. When you make up your mind before understanding all the facets of a particular argument, you leave yourself in a dangerously vulnerable position; something I hope our union an airline avoid in this matter. Aloha!

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 998 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4805 times:



Quoting HAL (Reply 23):
We do get paid by the route, or more precisely, by the flight hour. However aircraft complexity doesn't have that much to do with our pay; it has been a long-standing policy that pilots of bigger planes get paid more per hour. Why? Mainly because of the responsibility involved; not only for looking after the lives of the passengers, but for the security of the airline too. When I was flying 9 passengers at a time in a Piper Navajo around the wilds of northern Alaska, I had a much more complex job to do than I do now as a FO on a 767. But despite the pressure, hard work and complexity, the pay - and overall responsibility was less at my job in Alaska vs. now in Hawaii. Flying 300 people around in a $150M airplane is a large financial risk for the company. They want to ensure that they manage that risk by having the best available pilots flying that plane. One way to attract those pilots is with higher pay. Getting in the door and hired at a company that flies big planes is a goal of many pilots, in large part because of the pay. This allows the airline to be more selective in its hiring. And from the pilots point of view, yes we do feel a much greater sense of responsibility with each increase in aircraft size. The increasing pay is part of the reward for making it safely to being in the position of flying a large aircraft.

I wouldn't say that paying a lot of money for an employee provides you with the best. I would in fact say almost the opposite the higher the pay the more likely you are to get people who are just their for the money. The reason that airlines get the best pilots for their large aircraft is that is takes so long to get there typically it just someone looking for a job that is willing to take that amount of time to fly those. I personally have a real problem with airlines paying based on the size of the aircraft. The responsibility thing doesn't make sense either you as a pilot are responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft and I personally think that size shouldn't matter. I want my CRJ pilot just as concerned with that as my A380 captain. I think that pilots should advance based on the performance of said pilot not on how long they have been with the company. Yes pilots of larger airplanes have a greater responsibility for the number of passengers but in our society we clearly do not pay based on the number of lives we are responsible for so just because other airlines do something doesn't mean that is how it has to be done.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
25 Par13del : Ok, so the general belief on this thread is that pay scales, pay rates, pay by route, pay by hours or in general employee compensation is decided by t
26 Scbriml : The 787-8 is larger than a 764, so unless HA introduced a less dense seating arrangement, would almost certainly seat more.
27 Zeke : I dont agree with you, an airline would base its compensation around what the employees generate in return. While I work for an airline where we all
28 Post contains images Lumberton : I'm curious as to the terms of the "deal" HA announced a few months back for the Airbus wide bodies. Obviously, it's an LOI and HA can back out anytim
29 Post contains links Scbriml : HA signed an MOU with Airbus. The deal is far enough advanced that they selected RR engines for the A330s. http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...s/0
30 Post contains images Lumberton : A simple "we've-reconsidered-and-cut-our-prices-take-another-look-your-costs-of-ownership-will-be-lower-and-you-can-give-your- pilots-more-compensati
31 Airbazar : It's about 4% more than your average non-Union employee in the US will ever see. Reality is we're in a recession and an airline like HA is likely to
32 Post contains images Scbriml : Boeing cut prices to win a deal? One man's hypothesis is another's myth. Mythical: adj imaginary; fictitious Hypothetical: adj imaginary; supposed We
33 Yyz717 : So what? You have a hgh paid job and you should be grateful. Like any private sector job, you can choose to quit and start a new career. Yes, it just
34 Par13del : One problem with this logic is that there are no laws other than the universal law of not having slave labour which mandate how management type can w
35 Bobnwa : Since DL and CO are the only regular scheduled carriers flying the 767-400, the comparison really doesn't apply to HA. Plus I think the number of sea
36 Post contains images Transpac787 : Or.......like any private sector job, you can choose to negotiate for better pay and work rules. Suggestions?? The difference between a job and a car
37 Flybyguy : I'm not sure if this a correct assessment though. As a couple have rightfully pointed out, pilot's are limited by air regulations as to the number of
38 Aloha73G : As far as bigger planes equaling more pay, it's a pretty simple calculation: More Passengers=More REVENUE -Aloha!
39 MPDPilot : I was refering to human life not money but I understand your point I just don't agree.
40 Transpac787 : At most (if not all) US legacy carriers, the pilots are not contractually obligated to work any overtime trips, and the company cannot force them to,
41 Aloha73G : This is a proven economic fact. When income over $100,000 was taxed at a rate of 90% people had VERY little incentive to earn more than $100,000. Whe
42 LongHauler : There are alot of misconceptions about Air Canada and the B777/B787 proposed aircraft purchase. It would appear that the differences between manageme
43 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Very unlikely. After the BK proceeding, HA management and Boeing (one of HA's creditors) were left with some fairly bad blood between them. Regards,
44 Zeke : QF & SQ did for the A380 & A330, it is fairly common.
45 Scbriml : It applies in as much as the clear statement was made that pilot rates would be the same for the 767 and 787. I was simply pointing out that the 787
46 LongHauler : And that works very well, as long as both sides abide by the contract. In most pilot contracts, things like pay scales and training requirements are
47 Post contains links and images SeaBosDca : http://www.inflationdata.com/inflati...nflation_rate/CurrentInflation.asp Inflation has recently been running around 4%. How is a 2% raise "above inf
48 MD-90 : 2% a year is less than inflation. If pilots got what they wanted they'd still be making less than they are today.
49 Yyz717 : Guess what? In any true market, pilot salaries are determined by the financial health of their employer. That is the way the modern world works. So t
50 Transpac787 : Haha......way to use the same lame argument again. Did you even read my post about the NW pilots this past summer??? Reply 36 & 40. Or what you'd per
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