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BA B772 Crash Lands At LHR - Part 6  
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43873 times:

So pleas continue here, as part five almost have reached 240replies.

Lets the argue begin!!!


Work Hard, Fly Right
267 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30992 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43881 times:
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Anyone wish to provide a summary? 1000+ posts in five threads is a bit much to wade through.  Smile

User currently offlineDazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2913 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43784 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Anyone wish to provide a summary? 1000+ posts in five threads is a bit much to wade through.

I wouldn't bother wading through the posts as the majority is just pure speculation and totally irrelevant. All you need to refer to is the official AAIB report:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_ne..._january_2008___initial_report.cfm

Darren



Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineGQ From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43798 times:

courtesy of wikipedia...not the most trusted source but they get to the point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_BA38



Traveling somewhere, could be anywhere...there's a strangeness in the air but I don't care
User currently offlineE195 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43823 times:
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My other post was deleted, but the person http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7196172.stm is me

im getting the pictures back tomorro and am passing on to my publisist to distribute them to the press and media agencies.

David



Nikon D90 & D50 Sigma 70-300mm, 50-500 mm Lens :) oh yea Baby!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43703 times:



Quoting E195 (Reply 4):
im getting the pictures back tomorro and am passing on to my publisist to distribute them to the press and media agencies

Looking Forward to viewing them.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1291 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43735 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Anyone wish to provide a summary? 1000+ posts in five threads is a bit much to wade through. Smile

Sure. A BA 772 landed short of the runway. Initially, speculation was entirely wild, ranging from random double engine failure to fuel contamination to one engine being actually working. Some witnesses said the plane came in high and fast, others said low and slow, others mixed the two together; all agree it was nose-high. A few helpful posters who actually knew something contributed. Some posters asked why the tires were brown...after the plane had skidded through a wet, grassy area on collapsed landing gear. A few posters got into pedantic discussions on various features of the 772 or its operational history as compared to the 340. Others took great pains to demonstrate to the world their lack of basic knowledge of unpowered flight. Few seemed familiar with the notion that fan blades windmill even when no power is applied to the engine. Most all were engaged in a game of nerdy one-upmanship in which they vigorously tried to validate their lofty views of themselves based on their aeronautical knowledge. In sum, we know about as much now as we did when the plane went down: the plane turned onto final, engines did not respond to power inputs, plane landed short of runway, slides deployed, people all survived, plane almost certainly a W/O. Shockingly, neither BA nor Boeing has decided to keep the 15-year-old speculation artists abreast of the situation.

Sorry, Stitch, as I know you're legit and actually know something about airplanes, but that's more or less the gist of the discussion. You're much better off not reading it.


User currently offlineE195 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43689 times:
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Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Looking Forward to viewing them.
regds
MEL

thanks mel, im looking forward to seeing them! lol



Nikon D90 & D50 Sigma 70-300mm, 50-500 mm Lens :) oh yea Baby!
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43668 times:



Quoting E195 (Reply 4):
My other post was deleted, but the person http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7196172.stm is me

The I am looking forward for that pics!!!



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43613 times:

This is just amazing pathetic; British Prime Minister Targeted In London Air Cras (by MadameConcorde Jan 19 2008 in Non Aviation)


Prime minister the target LOL??

[Edited 2008-01-19 12:50:18]


Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineDehavalandb From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43611 times:

For you Cessna 152 private pilots posting on this forum, maybe you should keep the second quessing and pilot critquing to a minimum. Stating the captain should have taken over is crazy. The pilot in the right seat of a Boeing 777 is not getting private pilot instruction, and being kept out of trouble by his or her flight instructor. These pilots are highly experienced regardless of seat position. Trying to take over the aircraft would have made a dangerous situation deadly. And while I am on my high horse. All jet, turboprop and most high performance aircraft require power adjustments throughout the entire approach. It's not a training aircraft for God's sake! Most professional pilot's spend their entire careers perfecting the approach sequence in jet aircraft, it's about speed management and power. Until you graduate out of 160 horsepower aircraft you probably shouldn't be saying the pilot's had poor technique for having to add power on short final. I speak from experience, and maybe you should only speak when you have relevent experience as well.
 banghead 

Just to get this new thread off on the right foot. Please, keep your uneducated opinions to yourselves. Don't post speculation.



"Common sense is not quite so common" Benjamin Franklin
User currently offlineMason From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 748 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43546 times:



Quoting IADCA (Reply 6):
In sum, we know about as much now as we did when the plane went down: the plane turned onto final, engines did not respond to power inputs, plane landed short of runway, slides deployed, people all survived, plane almost certainly a W/O. Shockingly, neither BA nor Boeing has decided to keep the 15-year-old speculation artists abreast of the situation.

 checkmark 

Well said, IADCA. Very well said.


User currently offlineDazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2913 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43432 times:



Quoting Dehavalandb (Reply 10):
Please, keep your uneducated opinions to yourselves. Don't post speculation.

Here here  bigthumbsup  This is exactly what I posted in reply 59 on the first thread and was told to go run and jump, so I wouldn't hold your breath! I know this is an aviation enthusiast site, but some of the posts are beyond belief. Some of the stuff by so called experts in the media is just as bad. Just let the people in the know come to informed conclusions and report the findings.

Darren



Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 43407 times:



Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 13):
Just let the people in the know come to informed conclusions and report the findings.

Trust only the Official reports  Smile
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_ne..._january_2008___initial_report.cfm

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCatdaddy63 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 43346 times:
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It's pretty much a waiting game for us armchair investigators now. With a pretty much intact aircraft and the data from the FDR along with radar data, the investigators should have a pretty good idea by now of what failed. The real question is why, and could another 777 suffer the same issue.

User currently offlineDazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2913 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 43341 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
Trust only the Official reports

As per reply 2!!!!!

Darren



Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 43211 times:

At Work this is one Debated topic in Maintenance coffee break.The Findings will be very Interesting.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 43063 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
At Work this is one Debated topic in Maintenance coffee break.The Findings will be very Interesting.
regds
MEL

How about letting us know what you guys think is the most likely cause.

rgds


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 43047 times:



Quoting Dehavalandb (Reply 10):
For you Cessna 152 private pilots posting on this forum, maybe you should keep the second quessing and pilot critquing to a minimum. Stating the captain should have taken over is crazy. And while I am on my high horse. All jet, turboprop and most high performance aircraft require power adjustments throughout the entire approach.

IIRC, power adjustments are also needed on those "high performance, highly technical" 152's.

Huh - I'll be damned. You mean to tell me I was actually all knowing after my limited training hours in a C152?! I could have helped that flight crew?! Oh the humanity!!!  Yeah sure



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineBobbidooley From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 42804 times:

Quoting IADCA (Reply 6):
A few posters got into pedantic discussions on various features of the 772 or its operational history as compared to the 340. Others took great pains to demonstrate to the world their lack of basic knowledge of unpowered flight. Few seemed familiar with the notion that fan blades windmill even when no power is applied to the engine. Most all were engaged in a game of nerdy one-upmanship in which they vigorously tried to validate their lofty views of themselves based on their aeronautical knowledge.

Best thought on airliners.net in a while. Reading through the discussions, I thought that I was on digg.com for a bit.
Thanks for the laugh.

BTW- Pedantic: Thinking only about finely defined technical knowledge and rules. IIRC


[Edit - looked it up, I recalled corretctly.
Pedantic
1. ostentatious in one's learning.
2. overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.]

[Edited 2008-01-19 13:51:59]


Planes make me happy.
User currently offlineDehavalandb From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 42774 times:



Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 18):
IIRC, power adjustments are also needed on those "high performance, highly technical" 152's.

Huh - I'll be damned. You mean to tell me I was actually all knowing after my limited training hours in a C152?! I could have helped that flight crew?! Oh the humanity!!!

It's very presumptious of folks who probably don't have the slightest clue about how to fly jet aircraft, to state the pilots were wrong in how the situation was or wasn't handled. Once they get some real world experience on what it takes to fly such airplanes then maybe they can speak with some relevance on the subject.



"Common sense is not quite so common" Benjamin Franklin
User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1986 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 42617 times:



Quoting E195 (Reply 4):
My other post was deleted, but the person http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7196172.stm is me

im getting the pictures back tomorro and am passing on to my publisist to distribute them to the press and media agencies.

David

Ah! I knew that you're a member of a.net! I was talking about you in the previous thread - Part 5. I am glad to hear from you and I'm really dying to see the photos!!!!!!



The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5163 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 42456 times:

For all the stupid speculation and the countervailing recriminations against same, "stupid", of course, being defined as any theory with which the responder does not agree -- which is what makes a.net fun -- I propose the following truth: If you read between the lines of the latest overly-hysterical Guardian article, it is evident that there is at least some level of automation complacency involved in the accident sequence.

And I'll leave it at that.


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 42390 times:



Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 22):
latest overly-hysterical Guardian article

I thought that article was quite good and bought up some new thoeries with respect to the Guardian's sources didn't it?



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineQslinger From India, joined Apr 2006, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 42395 times:

It will be good to see a follow up on the BA crash. What I noticed here is that there virtually no follow up, besides the accident report or the NTSB or other agency report. Eg: Ethiad 340 crash at Toulouse, the thread is dead and there are no pics of aircraft being removed.

Same goes for the China Airlines 737 that burned up on the tarmac.

It would be great if there is a way to track the past events, cos no matter how much in the past, there is always new developments.

As per the BA 772, that cell phone video was scary, can't wait to see the pics/video of the salvage operations.



Raj Koona
25 Alessandro : Heeh, start your own website then where only professionals can post then. A.net is the biggest homepage about aviation on the net and not all are pil
26 Post contains images BoeingOnFinal : So what you're saying is that you have to have some sort of license or education to post here, in the aviation part of the forum? Every noneducationa
27 Bobbidooley : I thought the conversations deviated into nonsense at part 3 - boy was I wrong. How do attacks contribute to vigorous conversation. Speculation is goo
28 Acabgd : Thanks CCA for replying before me to this Pihero guy, as it certainly would be unpleasant if I had the chance to reply first. Now, this is an interes
29 OA260 : Hey your claim to fame !!! Thanks for the link. Looking forward to seeing the pics , it must seem like a dream when you think back to what happened a
30 Bok269 : If I understand him correctly, he is saying that unqualified inidividuals shouldn't be critiquing the actions of a qualified flight crew. A 16 year o
31 Wjcandee : Good: Additional info. Bad: "Desperate battle to land the jet", "Safety Fears...", "fell out of the sky", "concern about the safety of systems on the
32 Alessandro : Bok, so what, anyone can critizes a pilot, they´re not divine. Yes, sure are forums like that, like the BA forum on pprune.
33 Dehavalandb : Bok269, you hit the nail on the head. That is my point exactly. A two minute EDUCATED discussion, is far more informative than a 20 hour UNeducated o
34 Post contains images PlymSpotter : I should think that those pictures are worth an absolute fortune with the current media hysteria surrounding the incident. Hopefully you have a good
35 Antonovman : This has to be the most sensible post i have read on the whole subject
36 Post contains images 6YJJK : Pr!cks, prats, pre-pubescents and prima-donnas. Just another day on a.net. Thankfully, there are enough professionals to make sifting through that cr
37 RedFlyer : You're very fortunate to have photographed this event. Like others, I'm looking forward to eventually seeing the pics. And I don't know where things
38 Fiatstilojtd : The reaction of the media would have been very interesting if this would have had happened a few months in the past when the media found out that BA h
39 Khobar : What specific data did they use to arrive at the conclusion (that they've released), and if they used data from the QAR, why would they even mention
40 Spacecadet : That may have been what he meant, but it's not what he said. What he said was that we should not engage in speculation. Well, then! Thread closed, go
41 GDB : My own summary; A potentially large loss of life was averted by the skillful handling of a sudden, seemingly unexpected situation shortly before landi
42 CYatUK : Not sure if this was discussed before or even if the investigators know the answer but...Were the engines running (e.g. idle) and failed to respond t
43 Post contains links Glbltrvlr : Interesting article from the BBC on moving the aircraft here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7196208.stm Some of the more salient details include
44 Bok269 : They are not divine. But if one doesn't know what the proper procedures are for flying a 777 and handling one in an emergency, one shouldn't call int
45 Zeke : CVR/DFDR data had been downloaded prior to that announcement. The DFRD and QAR are almost exactly the same in what they record on modern aircraft, ju
46 Brucek : I'm a 56 year-old private pilot with an instrument rating, and 250 hours, and I also know my place. I wouldn't even start to presume what an SOP for
47 Scotland1979 : I think I am about to be done reading about BA38, I simply just broke my heart to see 777 rest by the runway with some pieces broken off. It would be
48 Par13del : Here's a general question, no speculation involved, accidents happen, based on the history of aviation in the last 20 years or so, how many accidents
49 Liverpool03 : Well...I know there's been a ton of speculation on this monsterous thread but I've heard some absolutely rediculous things in the past few days. It's
50 Dehavalandb : Does anyone have the long version video of the final moments of the flight. If so could you re-post it so I don't have to look for a hour in this mass
51 Post contains links Antskip : In case it hasn't been referred to yet (I haven't noticed it), there is Interesting article in today's Sunday Times: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/
52 Dugong : Having read everything here (glazed over a bit too) I just checked videos on the incident on You Tube and came across a succession of comments ranging
53 Post contains links Singapore_Air : Thanks for pointing us to it: “There are separate autothrottles, a left computer and a right computer . . . everything is split. That is the philos
54 NAV20 : That question would probably be worth several 250-post threads on its own, Par13del - and no conclusion would be reached, since very few accidents ha
55 AT777 : I saw somwhere on here that someone said they saw video of it from a cell phone. Is there a link to that? I'm sorry i can't find it on here to quote i
56 Post contains links Chrisrad : From the article http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3216746.ece Excerpt: However, the 777 and its computers are not infallible - as inves
57 Bucky707 : That close to landing, the flaps would have been fully extended, 30 degrees.
58 Dehavalandb : Chrisrad, well laid out. Now this is how this forum should be approached. Weighting each possibility with some insight to each event, then looking at
59 L-188 : Disagree, at this point I would call this the most likely cause. Just because fuel leaked doesn't mean the plane was burning it. We had a guy in a 20
60 Comorin : Also this nugget at the end: The Boeing 777s have, however, been involved in at least 12 incidents where electrical systems have overheated during or
61 Chrisrad : Would that MH incident with the auto-pilot have any bearing on this?
62 LHR27C : Except that flap 25 is BA 777 SOP for standard approaches. (Some indication that they were at 30 when YMMM stopped, but on a standard approach on bot
63 Bucky707 : interesting. Any reason why?
64 LTBEWR : Part of the reason this forum is to speculate about the airline industry, crashes and incidents As we gain more and more members and high speed Intern
65 LHR27C : Fuel conservation I believe is the main reason.
66 BeechNut : So, I'm a PPL with over 500 hours and my own aircraft (Beech Sundowner). I'll speculate if I damned well want to. Last I checked it's a free country
67 Bok269 : And that is what differentiates you from the 13-15 year old armchair Captains. My point is that we all need to know where our knowledge starts and en
68 Post contains images RedFlyer : BA paraded the flight crew out in front of a world audience about 24 hours after the accident. At that point, they knew very little about the cause o
69 Post contains images Comorin : Well said, and a balanced view.
70 Pihero : Quoting CCA, post#237,Part 5 :"I'm sorry but he's correct, the Thrust Reference Mode would have been GA, the Auto throttle would be in SPD mode. On th
71 CX flyboy : So do we or do we not yet know what cockpit indications were available to the pilots? All this talk about gliding and speeds and stalling etc.... In t
72 Post contains links NAV20 : If anyone would like to see the full ATSB (Australian Transport Safety Board) report on the 777 that returned to Perth in 2005 with somewhat similar p
73 ZTagged : Uhhhhh, pardon me but.. Last I checked, there were 2x screens per pilot, plus the EICAS.. There's 6, but it's 2 - 1 - 2, then the pedestal-mounted di
74 Post contains images E195 : Of course im a member! Lol think it deserves free membership though :p Im looking forward to seeing the pictures not seen them at all yet. The whole
75 A480 : What kind of (financial) compensation would passengers receive in that type of incident? There was no loss of life and no major injuries. Would BA sti
76 Photopilot : See, a little knowledge is dangerous. I'm a PPL and also a glider pilot and Licences Flight Instructor (Gliders) with about 600 hours in gliders over
77 NAV20 : Nice to meet someone else who knows about the glories (and limitations) of gliding, Photopilot. More than I do, on the face of it. But please see Pos
78 Post contains images 2H4 : So long as it's done in a constructive, intelligent, and above all, respectful manner, there's absolutely nothing wrong with speculating. It's a disc
79 Dehavalandb : With regards to the user name there is a story behind how it is spelled. I will not bore you with the details, I'm aware of how to spell DeHavilland.
80 Starlionblue : They missed...
81 Macilree : Apologies if this has already been raised, but the one indisputable point that strikes me about this "incident" is that, fortunately, it happened at a
82 Post contains images 2H4 : Probably not, but that's not the point. Instead of simply discouraging these folks from participating, it would be more prudent (and productive) to e
83 Threepoint : It was an A330 in 2001. Six and a half years now... OK, were they piloting a glider? Although we know the engines weren't producing sufficient thrust
84 SSTsomeday : Excellent summary. You show intelligence, wit, and an ability to write. If you aren't a writer, you should be. Meanwhile, with the crew alive and the
85 Flymad : Sky News apparently spoke to the co-pilot (John Coward) on the telephone and he apparantly said that the a/c (engines) had no power at all and that h
86 Vegas005 : Statistically speaking there is an 80 percent chance pilot error is to blame or partially to blame. I don't wish this on the brave BA pilots, but fact
87 Par13del : Another question, it relates to these early "hours" days of this investigation. I am not reading all the web sites from the UK only seeing what some p
88 Starlionblue : Certainly. But let's remember that such statistics aren't really useful as predictors in any one particular case. If you had 100 crashes to examine y
89 Fiatstilojtd : This would be a "bummer" and a "big dent" for the reputation of BA.
90 NCB : This entire incident looks more like a single engine failure problem to me. The last Flightglobal analysis stated that there is a big chance that numb
91 Acabgd : Sound balance as in hearing sound? Don't you think experienced pilots look at their instruments as well from time to time and don't entirely depend o
92 OA260 : Sky News now reports they are moving the A/C from the crash site.
93 A346Dude : That's true, but only to a point. For a theoretical maximum distance glide, one would hold max L/D until a few feet above the ground, and then mainta
94 Scbriml : The problem is, this is a real "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation". If BA had told the pilots "You shall not talk to the media", it wou
95 Pihero : Strange way of conducting an accident investigation. Your theories are even stranger when you consider that since 1959, the aviation world has seen q
96 Bongodog1964 : BBC news at 13.00 showed a live shot of a low loader being rolled under the fuselage. The plane is probably an hour or two from moving, as it will ne
97 Post contains links RichM : I don't think the SFO is handling the media as well as what he could have done. I think he's disclosing a little too much when it comes to his persona
98 Baroque : Well the stats would work that way IF all possibilities still existed but they dont so the broad stats are no longer relevant. Additionally, dependin
99 ZANL188 : What constitutes "a significant amount"? To your average 172 pilot 150 gallons is a significant amount, to a 777 pilot 150 gallons remaining is proba
100 Post contains images Schreiner : First Joke... An other thing: imagine what happend if a plane was holding short for takeoff. That would be nasty. Cheers, Schreiner
101 Pihero : Did you allow for ground effect, in which due to the reduced induced drag, the L/D ratio is increased. Nothing magic, just pure physics and very sens
102 Scbriml : The report doesn't state anything other than "a significant amount". Given that they're talking about an accident involving a 777, one would assume t
103 PYP757 : Exactly my thought too when I was reading the article on the BBC website. The problem is not just the airline and its reputation, but surely the prof
104 Fiatstilojtd : When you talk about BA or the Pilots I agree, if you talk about Boeing, Honeywell or Rolls-Royce I totally disagree. Sh*t happens, compare 1 RR power
105 Bongodog1964 : It will make little difference to the long term reputation of any of the organisations involved, be it BA, RR, Honeywell or whoever for one simple re
106 ZANL188 : Hence my point.... Although I don't claim to know how much fuel is trapped in a 777, it's certainly conceivable that "a significant amount" of trappe
107 HOOB747 : I concur exactly to the sentiment in your post. I feel deep sadness that this beautiful plane will never fly again. And to see her sitting on the run
108 Post contains images David L : I'm sure he didn't think about their fate in preference to getting the aircraft down in one piece. If a thought like that enters your head, you can't
109 Patches : This wreck is a tribute to the design of the 777. I mean holy crap! this airplane hit very hard and no deaths? That is on heard of with a plane that s
110 Dambuster : Do you think the involved aircraft is too expensive to repair?
111 Bongodog1964 : We have to put a sense of perspective to the SFO's quotes. He has sold his story to a "red top tabloid". They would not pay a penny for "I hoped we w
112 Post contains images Photopilot : Not likely as by the time the airframe would be within the ground effect realm, they would already have been inside the boundary fence.... which they
113 Scbriml : Anything can be repaired if you're prepared to pay for it. The question really is "Is it economically worth repairing?" I don't think we've seen a de
114 NCB : Wrong sir. Go-around or missed approach one engine inop procedure only applies down to decision height. Below decision height/altitude, no matter wha
115 Aerosol : The raises the question of what would have happenened in a 350/787.
116 Cusaeng : British Airways aircraft recovery team is scheduled to start the move today of the Boeing 777 that operated flight BA038 from Beijing to Heathrow. Som
117 Khobar : Both would be certified to similar survivability standards, so the end results would have been, well, similar.
118 Post contains images David L : Exactly!
119 Gearup : Well hopefully you are a bit more relaxed now. I agree with you that the T7 is an excellent aircraft in every sense of the word. Consider this, the F
120 PanAm1971 : That is a very very good question.
121 David L : I can only recall one such comment and I'm sure that was meant to be ironic. Of course, there have been a lot of posts so I may have missed some. Com
122 Khobar : The QAR data is not derived from its own independent inputs, right? So it's going to show what the DFDR shows per its design. With data from the QAR,
123 OA260 : BBC News 24 said that according to their sources the A/C will be written off !!! Some things maybe recycled and used but its un likely the A/C will f
124 Post contains images Halls120 : Best post (so far) of all six threads!
125 Patches : To gearup: You are correct sir, thank you for getting me back on track. I hear what your saying about the F-15, but most of those eagles are over 30 y
126 Acabgd : Excellent point, I have to thank you for pointing this out to all of us. Incredible that no one has mentioned this in all threads up to now and every
127 Post contains images David L : True but in order to consider a chain of events, a single key event would be useful.
128 OA260 : Some recent clips ( 20mins ago) from the BBC moving the A/C. Sorry for bad quality !!
129 Hotelmode : The story was not sold. The Mirror made it up from a collection of things said to other people, but they wouldnt want you to know that.
130 Acabgd : Thanks for the videos, don't bother with the quality, it's good enough. However, I find it a bit strange they left the titles on and haven't repainte
131 Queso : That was my thought, too. Maybe it's because there were no fatalities, who knows.
132 Ikramerica : This struck me too. Basically, they seem to be taking the pilot's word for it right now, even though most accidents are ultimately pilot error. It'll
133 Bok269 : Are those numbers based on commercial, part 121 incidents, or does that include general aviation as well?
134 Post contains links Tuiflyer : Just found this article, seems that the co-pilot has confirmed that the aircraft just lost power. Also the aircraft is currently being moved to a hang
135 AsstChiefMark : Why would they? It doesn't serve any purpose. Everyone who lives in the civilized world knows a BA aircraft crashed at Heathrow. And for those who li
136 OldAeroGuy : Interesting since Flaps 25 is not certified for autolands on the 777. Do BA than switch to Flaps 30 as the standard autoland flap setting? The ground
137 Genius12 : BA have nothing to hide, everyone knows what happened. There is no need to paint the titles out, and perhaps they were not permitted to paint them ou
138 MD11Engineer : I'm a licenced aircraft maintenance engineer with several type ratings on my licence as well as a FAA A&P mechanic with more than a decade of experie
139 TheSonntag : Maybe in such a case, it would even be bad PR if BA had the name painted over, as some people might think BA has something to hide. I have not taken p
140 Post contains images Khaleej777 :
141 RobertS975 : The real slice of the cheese that was not present was the lack of post-impact fire. Can you all imagine what it would have been like if there was a s
142 Post contains images Argonaut : Worth re-reading this whole post: Welcome to my Respected Members List!
143 HAWK21M : Well put Jan. Out here We have AI & 9W who operate the type. I'm personally awaiting the Final official report. regds MEL
144 Post contains links and images Wjcandee : While we're waiting 30 days for the AAIB report -- or for more LEAKS!    -- have a look at something to divert your attention, if you who haven't se
145 RedFlyer : Don't be so hard on the guy...looks like cherry licorice to me.
146 Bongodog1964 : The Mirror claims that it was an exclusive interview with the co pilot.
147 SEPilot : Just remember the statistician who drowned in a stream with an average depth of six inches.
148 Hotelmode : They're lying.
149 SKAirbus : Any news on if the aircraft will be written off??
150 Post contains links and images Argonaut : Oops. Just when you thought the level of speculation had gone way beyond the merely absurd...try this eye-witness quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk
151 Dehavalandb : Is there any new development on the condition of the hurt passengers? The press here in the US, hasn't covered the accident too well.
152 AsstChiefMark : Doctors are having trouble substantiating a claim that they were touched in some manner somewhere.
153 Pihero : Funny, no one has told me that when I'm training to overshoot on a cat IIIB single engine approach-to-land for an instrument failure below my 50 ft d
154 MD11Engineer : The BBC stated yesterday that all passengers except for one woman have been released from hospital. Jan
155 Dehavalandb : Thanks, what have the press stated was the extent of the injuries? I suppose cuts and bruises mostly.
156 L-188 : Why don't we ask the guys that shut down the wrong engine on that British Midlands 737 a few years back?
157 FAEDC3 : I had been away during this week, so I just read most of this hread and luckily found some good accurate summaries of how the discussion has been deve
158 Post contains images Sketty222 : Is that not from user E195 who actually took photo's of the crash? He linked the story in reply 3 reminding everyone that it was him.
159 L-188 : DOH!!! I think I am tending to suspect that at this point. Again the A330 example comes to mind, first they where the hero's for getting the plane in
160 ZANL188 : I wouldn't be so quick to write it off. The photos don't show major structural damage, aside from the gear. The hole in the right side I'm guessing w
161 Pihero : For those of you still in favour of a double engine extinction to fuel exhaustion.In this case, there would have been a total loss of electrical power
162 HAWK21M : From the pics visible,it would be Expensive to recover to Airworthy conditions. regds MEL
163 Moo : Put it this way - if its cheaper to part out the Varig 777 than refurbish it for resale, its going to be cheaper to part out this one.
164 ZANL188 : My point is we can't make a judgement on this just from the pix...
165 L-188 : I am willing to bet that every frame in the fuselage is cracked.
166 Post contains images Scbriml : Looking at this photo: I can see the MLG at about 45 degrees, but what is the large "structural" piece sticking up almost vertically? It may be an op
167 Post contains links Foxy : Interesting speeded up video of the removal of the Jet from the end of the runway http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/c...bram=1&bbram=1&nbwm=1&bbwm=1&
168 Aerokiwi : Brilliant post that sums up these threads so well. Tried keeping up with the "information" here but as per, it descended into guff. Nice one, IADCA.
169 ZANL188 : I'll take that bet. A low speed impact which the gear & engines absorbed... Pix I've seen show all the pax doors open after the evacuation and then c
170 MD11Engineer : I would say the landing gear beam. Jan
171 Timboflier215 : One thing I don't understand is that people are saying that the engines didn't respond, and so there was not enough thrust, but eyewitnesses said that
172 ZANL188 : My guess... gear support beam..,
173 Post contains images Boeing747_600 : Anyone who thinks this 772 will ever fly again is just plane - if you'll pardon the pun - delusional. They'll salvage every $ worth of spares from it
174 L-188 : In a jet engine I doubt it, in a car the power of the engine goes through a transmission, you don't have that in an airplane.
175 Timboflier215 : That's what I thought, but thank you for clearing it up. Very odd incident indeed all in all, let's hope that the AAIB find out why it happened and t
176 Post contains links Jawed : Great article: Hunt for fatal flaw of Flight 38 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3216746.ece
177 Pygmalion : the F-15 issues are a result of parts not built to design specifications. Bad on McD for not catching it during build but this is certainly not a des
178 Theginge : Is that Varig 777 the old one that BA got rid of? If it is still going wonder if BA would lease it back as cover for G-YMMM?!?!!
179 Sketty222 : " target=_blank>http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/c...asb=1 How long did it actually take them to move the a/c from the runway? Great vid btw, thanks
180 Halls120 : We can't ask them, but if we could, I'll bet the pilots of the Alaska MD-83 that kept trying to fix the jackscrew problem instead of just trying to l
181 Post contains links and images ZANL188 : Be careful of absolutes... This 747 was older and, from the pix, more severely damaged.... yet flew again.... View Large View MediumPhoto © Coli
182 Spacecadet : Except that it's making the same faulty assumption that much of the rest of the media has: that the engines failed. Even their own description of the
183 Dalb777 : The problem is that the Varig 777 in reference is not an -ER model.
184 AirbusA346 : Does anybody know which company the used? Well one Varig (ex BA) 772A was scrapped. Tom.
185 Dalb777 : Don't they also have another ex-BA 772A that's not scrapped? Varig's 772ERs came from other airlines, like UA.
186 Post contains images Argonaut : Oh yes. I believe it is. IMO he did absolutely the correct thing in offering the photos immediately. If you are reading this, E195, please know you d
187 ZANL188 : Are we sure the Varig airplane got scrapped? If there were a 777 somewhere getting cut up you can bet there'd be a pix in the a.net database and I do
188 Dalb777 : Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. I know there have been talks of it getting scrapped, but I don't know if it's been done yet.
189 Theginge : Probably wouldn't matter much as they could use it on the shorter routes. Who knows what BA will do to replace it. Either lease one from somewhere or
190 Gordonroxburgh : Its been confirmed as an Insurance write off. Loads of components to be recovered and re-certified.
191 Post contains links and images Gh123 : One would have thought so. One was - G-ZZZE View Large View MediumPhoto © Janne Laukkonen - FAP One post earlier in the week claimed that the co
192 Zeke : The BBC report when the aircraft was moved said the wings were badly damaged but still attached, more than likely a write off. What is the possibilit
193 ZANL188 : Source please... Looks like an intact airplane to me... and the photo was taken over a year ago... If it had been cut up in the meantime there would
194 Post contains links and images Gh123 : Taken in October '06 View Large View MediumPhoto © David Marshall
195 Gh123 : I take your point. We'll just have to wait for them I suppose!
196 Gh123 : Quoting the photographer: This is the first 777 to be scrapped, the APU has been removed, the batteries disconnected, and soon the engines will also
197 Starlionblue : A tribute to the design but not unheard of. Air China 747 at Kai Tak rolled quite nicely. SK MD-8x at Gottröra broke in 3 pieces but no deaths. I du
198 ZANL188 : Seen it before & I still don't see a cut up airplane... Talk is cheap, pix speak volumes... And yeah I saw the website of the company that bought it
199 E195 : Fraid it was me Thank you i believe i did the ethical thing too. You will hopefully see them soon.. David
200 Post contains links ScrubbsYWG : not a picture, but the company's website says it was taken apart for spares. See the following link for universal asset management. http://www.uaminc
201 Acabgd : Asked them - they weren't checking their instruments and that's why they shut down the wrong engine.
202 ZANL188 : Yup I've seen it. Parts reclamation is one thing, scrapping the airframe is another.
203 Post contains images NCB : So may I remind you that VS0 is different depending on flap setting? The more wind, the smaller the flap setting=higher VS0 (or VSref if you like) =h
204 Patches : Why is a 10 year old 777 going to sit in a bone yard and rust away? Its a new design plane, wouldnt some airline want a newer 777? Or was there somthi
205 ScrubbsYWG : The varig one? There are multiple threads on Anet about it, but the gist of it is: -varig really worked it to the bone and it was in bad shape after
206 Post contains links NAV20 : God, you guys - does it matter? By the time they realised what was happening and had tried resetting and manual override they'd have been at ABOUT 45
207 Bellerophon : NCB ...The more wind, the smaller the flap setting... Rubbish. ...Below decision height/altitude, no matter what, with one engine inop YOU MUST LAND..
208 Gh123 : Exactly Exactly too.
209 SSTsomeday : Replying to my speculation, among other possibilities, that the engines' inability to provide power may be a maintenance issue.: If it is a maintenanc
210 Wjcandee : Immediately following the crash, the following was true: (1) BA had no idea what caused the loss of power to the engines. (2) Regardless of what, if
211 PhilSquares : No Boeing or Airbus I've ever flown has that type of logic! Sorry to say, but you're way off the mark! I beg to differ. I know of no SOP on Boeing or
212 Bok269 : Isn't it a requirement that a twin be able to go around on one engine?
213 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Speculating in my turn, SSTSomeday - but both engines DOES strongly suggest a software issue. And it could very well be 'maintenance.' I fancy that s
214 PhilSquares : Yes, but it's not an all encompassing statement. There are environmental factors (temp and PA) as well as terrain features (high mountains on the mis
215 Bok269 : Thanks for the info.
216 Boeing747_600 : A) I dont know what you got from the picture, but The LH 747 shows no damage to the wings, fuselaege or control surfaces. and B) The BA 772 was not h
217 PhilSquares : I am glad you think so, but my jury is still out. I can think of a couple of things right off the bat that don't involve any software, fadec/eec or a
218 Zeke : Bit early to say that. Depends on how keen BA is to have a hull loss on their books, and Boeing for the 777. Maybe we should wait until a) site inves
219 NAV20 : What are you basing that 'doubt' on, PhilSquares? It's not just the pilots that say 'both engines' - the AAIB says it too, basing its opinion on the
220 Post contains images CHRISBA777ER : Magnificent post - absolutely wonderful. Welcome to my RU list.
221 PhilSquares : A preliminary was done. Until the full DFDR, CVR and QAR are analyised the statements are nothing more than speculation at best. The investigation is
222 Seabosdca : Please don't take such a drastic step. I hardly think the text in 1500 posts will bring down the site... a single photo takes up more space. While it
223 NAV20 : I hope we don't have to quarrel too much, PhilSquares. It's speculation, and, like SSTSomeday, I said so. I may well be insane, but I've no reason to
224 NCB : The requirement for go-around with EF above decision height needs you to retract landing gear asap and establish one engine missed approach safety sp
225 Post contains links Imag : Can anyone else access the BAA Heathrow noise tracker data for last Thursday? It is strangely missing from the sequence. http://www.heathrowairport.co
226 PhilSquares : I'm not going to get suckered into this insane debate. You are so far out it's not funny. This situation is completely different. BA, just like QF is
227 Pihero : And that's your experience from what planet? Go andf study more and then come back...to this Earth...we are not in the same league either. Ditto. See
228 NAV20 : Sincerely wish it WAS a debate, PhilSquares. Trouble is, I know what you think the problem WASN'T but I've no idea what you think it might have BEEN.
229 PhilSquares : Please don't put words into my mouth. Please re-read my posts. I've made it perfectly clear I won't speculate until all the data is available. What y
230 Pihero : Agreed. But how do you determine a *good* post ? That's the job of an investigation team and the duty of an air safety administration.But you know ve
231 TristarSteve : Well I have been reading all the posts here, and on Pprune for the last 4 days, but I have not said much. As a B777 licensed engineer who works the ai
232 CX flyboy : The 777 is one of the nicest handling aircraft I have flown. It is forgiving and although max weight on a single engine is not particularly fun, it i
233 Jetfuel : Now seeing reports that Investigators say both of jet's engines failed.... I am reluctant to blame computers at this stage but come back to the number
234 Jush : Again! They didn't fail. They said they FAILED to respond. That is a huge difference. Although the outcome is the same, that is, you won't be able to
235 Jetfuel : The engines failed (to provide thrust) Caused by inadequate fuel supply and/or quality
236 Jush : See, now here we go again. No lengthy discussion about how someone menat something, or not. However, I do not support the fuel contamination theory.
237 PhilSquares : First you might want to step back and just chill for a minute. You will note the "real" pilots, the real techs or the real ground engineers on this f
238 Jetfuel : Jush Number one cause of engine failures (engines ceasing to provide thrust) is fuel. There has been no evidence of a real significance of fuel at the
239 B707forever : I'm far from an expert, not even a good lay person so here's a question for the smart folk of A.Net: If power was asked for and it wasn't received, is
240 Post contains links NAV20 : Agree that fuel contamination is a possibility, Jetfuel - but don't know enough about the 777's fuel feed arrangements to know whether that could aff
241 Hotelmode : Thats not quite the case they had decided on a strike ballot in a meeting that was taking place as the accident happened. They did not release the in
242 TepidHalibut : I wish it were that easy : the EEC data may be comparatively easy to get hold of, (in fact, I suspect that the experts were looking at it within 24 h
243 Jetfuel : Really? I cant think of a single engine failiure caused by fuel in any company i've been involved in I will rephrase that then - Number one cause of e
244 ZANL188 : Look again... NLG dog house was ripped out thru the right hand side of the nose... Right hand wing gear is gone along with supporting structure
245 StealthZ : And a question for the experts, I understand engines are mounted with fuse pins so they can separate without destroying the air frame. The # 2 & 3 en
246 Yanqui67 : I am a 777 qualified AMT and work the 777 almost daily and I posted this a few pages ago. Here it is again. This is some info on how the 777 interfac
247 Gh123 : Quite right
248 Post contains images NAV20 : Yanqui67, interested by what you say but mystified by all your use of 'initials.' I know roughly what FADEC stands for but, to me, 'AMT' is short for
249 Pihero : like in all professions, there are some concepts behind these acronyms that don't go with a quick explanation. AIMS stand for "Aircraft Informantion M
250 Pihero : Yanqui67, Yes a failure in this chain could explain the event, as any failure that would *cut* the control loop of the throttles (the return FADEC->th
251 RebelDJ : Yes - me too. There are only a two things common to both engines - fuel and command. I am at the moment skeptical about blaming the fuel side of thin
252 Post contains images NAV20 : Trick there thanks to A.net, Pihero. Run the mouse over it and the airport name comes up. Usually, anyway.
253 Checksixx : Still no supposed pictures of the actual landing yet?? I thought someone claimed to be getting some back from investigators....
254 Post contains images David L : Don't panic...
255 Starlionblue : So I guess we're left with this: What can cause both engines to fail to produce an increase in power? Yes of course. Yes, but a NAV20 correctly points
256 MD11Engineer : Yanqui, Does the 777 only have one EDUI or does it have a seperate one for each engine? Does the A/T talk directly to the EEC´s or does it just move
257 Mestrugo : I'm wondering... As far as I know, the engines fail to produce more thrust, even if commanded to do so, from both the autopilot and manual command, ye
258 CYatUK : Do we know this or assume it from the initial report. I thought the report left this a bit unclear
259 GDB : Outstanding Chrisrad and IADCA. G-YMMM is a write off. Nothing else of any certainty has emerged today, apart from the above nugget.
260 Tdscanuck : The 777 does not transfer fuel between tanks in flight. No Boeing twin does. True, but there's also no evidence that any of the fuel tanks were opene
261 G-CIVP : Phil Squares - please stick around. I for one, appreciate your input on these forums as your contributions are from a seasoned professional who actual
262 RebelDJ : I agree it is not specific, but I was only pointing out that there WAS fuel loss, while others here were saying that there was no evidence of fuel ta
263 Boeing747_600 : I would submit that MLG and NLG structural replacement is a lot more feasible compared to attempting to repair damage from MLG struts to G-YMMM's win
264 ZANL188 : LH 747 lost the gear support beam just like the BA bird...
265 Khobar : Fuel loss does not mean fuel tank rupture. Obviously the engines were severely damaged - it is entirely plausible that the fuel loss in question was
266 RebelDJ : Yes - that was what my initial discussion was about - I was concerned that the fuel tanks seem to have ruptured during the landing - I wasn't suggest
267 Post contains links Srbmod : Please continue the discussion here: BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 7 (by Srbmod Jan 21 2008 in Civil Aviation) Any additional posts after this one w
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