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BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 7  
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 39912 times:

Continuing the discussion from the previous thread:

BA B772 Crash Lands At LHR - Part 6 (by B747forever Jan 19 2008 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2008-01-21 13:08:24]

267 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSymphonik From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 39769 times:

I am sure that this thread will contain nothing but accurate information direct from investigative authorities and will not stoop to speculation or random off-the-cuff theories written by folks with hundreds of hours of 777 experience in Microsoft Flight Simulator.

 innocent 


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 39660 times:

I'm amazed this thread has gone on as long as it has. You'd think everyone would have run out of of things to discuss, since everything's been mentioned at least once in the previous SIX threads.  Big grin

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26971 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 39600 times:



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 2):
since everything's been mentioned at least once in the previous SIX threads.

What about the colour of the foam sprayed onto the A/C !!! Errr actually it was discussed already LOL..... What about the conspiracy theories???


User currently offlineYanqui67 From Puerto Rico, joined Jan 2005, 508 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 39517 times:

Answers:
EEC- Electronic Engine Control, it is mounted on the engine and its the brain of the engine. Each engine has one. It is a computer that is used to do all the functions for the engine. it receives data from all the engine components and uses the data to make the engine operate at its optimum settings. It has two channels A and B. Every time the start switch is actuated the EEC channel changes. Only one channel is in control at a time. The EEC is always ready to take over in case of failure with the other channel. The other channel is monitoring the active channel to make sure they are both receiving the same data. The EEC operates on the ARINC 429 avionics data bus. The EEC is powered by the aircraft once the start switch is actuated or the EEC maintenance switch is on. Once the engine reaches a certain N1 or EPR setting then the EEC alternator powers the EEC. Meaning the engine itself is self powered by the alternator that is spinning.

FADEC-Full Authority Digital Engine Control, This is what is called when an engine is Fly By Wire. That is, no mechanical controls. The EEC controls all engine operations. The goal of FADEC is to operate the engine at its highest efficiency in all flight aspects.

AIMS- Aircraft Information Management System- On the 777 this is the brain of the aircraft. All data is brought in and through the AIMS system. There are two AIMS cabinets left and right. They are essentially the EEC of the 777 aircraft. The AIMS system makes the 777 what it is. It eliminates many avionics black boxes because the AIMS does those functions. As an example the Autothrottle computer which is found on most airliners is eliminated on the 777. The function of A/T is a function of AIMS. Other functions include, Primary Flight Displays, Flight Data Recorder System, Aicraft Conditioning System and other functions. The AIMS system receives and transmits data on four 629 buses. I could go on and on with AIMS. It is very complex and I just gave a quick description of it.

EIDU- Engine Data Interface Unit- On the 777 there are two. One each for each engine. This box is what lets the AIMS system interface with the EEC. The EECs are on the 429 bus while the AIMS is on the 629 bus. In order for the system to communicate with each other the EDIU takes care of it. It converts the data coming from the EEC to a 629 signal for AIMS to use and vice versa convert 629 to a 429 signal for the EEC to use. This is the sole way for the flight deck to make the engine do what you want it to do. You bump the throttle up and the signal is sent to the AIMS which in turn sends it to the EDIU and then to the EEC which tells the engine to add some gas. The feedback is then sent back the same way it came. The EDIUs are three channel A, B, and C.

I hope that answers some questions. The 777 is very complex and I could be writing forever. Like I said before, I am waiting for the results of the investigation, I will not speculate.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 39025 times:



Quoting Yanqui67 (Reply 4):
I hope that answers some questions. The 777 is very complex and I could be writing forever. Like I said before, I am waiting for the results of the investigation, I will not speculate.

How dare you refuse to speculate? Don't you realize you are depriving all the armchair experts out there with the new material they so ardently need?  sarcastic 


User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38992 times:

I didn't read the other threads, please excuse me, but why weren't the BA titles removed as usually happens after an incident?

User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38933 times:



Quoting ENU (Reply 6):
but why weren't the BA titles removed as usually happens after an incident?

Probably because that horse all ready got out of the barn.  Smile


User currently offlineJetlife2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 221 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38875 times:



Quoting Yanqui67 (Reply 4):
I hope that answers some questions.

 checkmark 

Thanks Yanqui, that's a good summary. Regards GHR


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38852 times:



Quoting ENU (Reply 6):
I didn't read the other threads, please excuse me, but why weren't the BA titles removed as usually happens after an incident?

Check in thread #6. I think that's the one where we discussed this.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26971 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38800 times:



Quoting Yanqui67 (Reply 4):
I hope that answers some questions. The 777 is very complex and I could be writing forever. Like I said before, I am waiting for the results of the investigation, I will not speculate.

Excellent post , thanks for taking the time to share . You are right also. I hope we get to know what happened from the investigation soon.

Quoting ENU (Reply 6):
but why weren't the BA titles removed as usually happens after an incident?

I guess it had already been beamed on every news channel around the globe and the aircraft actually looked pretty in tact to most non Aviation public. People actually commented on what a good A/C it must be to survive such a ordeal. I haven't yet seen any bad media publicity so BA didn't really need to do anything to cover over its livery. Then there was the statements by the crew where they were called heroes so its all been pretty positive for BA.Thank god !! It could have gone either way. Painting over the A/C might have also sent out a bad signal.


User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38757 times:



Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 7):



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):



Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):

Thanks! Not that removing titles ever makes much sense in my opinion, but I might be wrong.


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38707 times:

Have the B777s not been grounded yet? Very dangerous aircraft
 Yeah sure  Wink



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38663 times:



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 12):
Very dangerous aircraft

LOL. I always thought 4 engines were safer...


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26971 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 38623 times:



Quoting ENU (Reply 13):
LOL. I always thought 4 engines were safer...

LOL... I guess if you have total power loss you could have 6 engines and still be in SH@t......


User currently offlineVega9000 From Portugal, joined Aug 2006, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 38172 times:

What? Six threads and still no answer? This is starting to look like a cover-up!!!

I also have one theory:

since BA pilots are highly skilled and trained to the highest standards, and it is unthinkable that they would fail

and...

the 777 is one of the best and most secure airplane there is, built by no other than the "underpromise and overdeliver" company, so a failure is unthinkable

and...

BA maintenance is one of the best in the world, so it's unthinkable that they would make a blunder like this

and...

it was not the fuel, since the other airplanes that departed Beijing didn't crash

then...

however improbable, there's just, IMHO, one explanation left:

- the airport moved...

There, I've solved it, and I don't even know that much about aviation.



Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.
User currently offlineHOOB747 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 38020 times:

Hey Stitch, nothing to see here, nothing to see here!


747 Number One Fan from U.S.A
User currently offlineNcfc99 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 740 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 38072 times:

Quoting Vega9000 (Reply 15):
- the airport moved...

I will respond with the typical a.net one word answer from anyone who dosn't like somebodys opinion or theory to a subject

SAUCE!!!!!!!   

[Edited 2008-01-21 16:36:54]

User currently offlineIrishpower From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 386 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 37848 times:

NO, NO, NO----Everyone is missing the boat! ----I HAVE FIGURED IT OUT!!!

What happened is that the BA Captain made a bet with his neighbor who is a loyal A.Net'er and the bet was----"I bet you can't do anything that will generate 7 threats on my favorite website!!" --To that the BA Captain said "OH yeah----watch me!"


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 37683 times:

Yanqui67, many thanks for Post 4, VERY clear and comprehensive! A few questions:-

Quoting Yanqui67 (Reply 4):
AIMS- Aircraft Information Management System- On the 777 this is the brain of the aircraft. All data is brought in and through the AIMS system. There are two AIMS cabinets left and right.

Are the 'two AIMS cabinets' separate, in the sense of one for each engine - or does one operate at a time, with the other acting as backup? The reason I ask is that we appear to be facing a situation where 'messages' to increase power don't appear to have got through to either engine - if there are separate AIMS systems for each engine, you'd think this would be just about impossible?

Quoting Yanqui67 (Reply 4):
This is the sole way for the flight deck to make the engine do what you want it to do. You bump the throttle up and the signal is sent to the AIMS which in turn sends it to the EDIU and then to the EEC which tells the engine to add some gas.

According to the AAIB the systems were 'commanded' to increase power in two ways - first by the autothrottle, and later by manual override, the pilot(s) moving the throttle levers. I know that Boeings have servos on their throttle levers so that the systems, as well as increasing power, also move the throttle levers to match the power settings. What 'steps' do the systems actually take? Are autothrottle commands first transmitted to the engines direct, and the levers then moved to match; or do the systems just move the levers so that the command is transmitted in the same way as if the pilots were controlling power manually?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 37683 times:



Quoting Vega9000 (Reply 15):
What? Six threads and still no answer? This is starting to look like a cover-up!!!

I'm guessing none of you guys see the irony in posting about how there's nothing to post and how pointless this thread is? Especially when about 19 of the first 20 posts in the thread so far express that exact same sentiment?

If you don't want to speculate and you don't want to read speculation, that's fine. But then why perpetuate the thread? Are 20 posts in a row about how pointless the thread is somehow more helpful than 20 posts speculating on a cause?



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 37479 times:

No no no no guys the runway moved


Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 37542 times:

I managed to get a close up look at the aircraft before it was moved.

Word amongst the guys out there was it is going to be a write off. They said there was too much damage to the centre wing box to repair it, although aside from the wing/landing gear area and the engines, the rest of the fuselage didn't look too bad considering.

The remaining landing gear had been removed and the aircraft was up on jacks when I saw it. The earth had been removed from the engines too. The no.1 had clearly suffered much more damage to the fan blades than the no.2 had.

When I saw the a/c, the RAT was deployed although I don't know if this was the case prior to touchdown as that area of the a/c had suffered quite a bit of damage, but it looked pretty clean and damage free which would suggest it was not deployed during the impact.

From what I saw, there was actually very little damage to the runway surface although a few of the runway lights will need replacing.

One of the chaps was on duty and responded the day the a/c went down, and said the c/crew were not even sure what had happened after they exited the a/c. I guess their training just kicked in, and they got on and did what they needed to without thinking, then once they were off they were thinking WTF just happened !!.

Oh and the aircraft holds had been offloaded to make it lighter to move and also reunite the passengers with their bags and get the cargo delivered to the righful owners.

Hope that answered a few questions from the other 6 threads !!!.

 

[Edited 2008-01-21 16:55:18]


"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 37370 times:



Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 20):

At the risk of adding one more useless post... well said! I think we've all got the message that wild speculation is a waste of time and that we don't have a lot of information to go on. Some will ignore that and the rest of us already know. Can we just get on with it?  Smile


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 37047 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
According to the AAIB the systems were 'commanded' to increase power in two ways - first by the autothrottle, and later by manual override, the pilot(s) moving the throttle levers. I know that Boeings have servos on their throttle levers so that the systems, as well as increasing power, also move the throttle levers to match the power settings. What 'steps' do the systems actually take? Are autothrottle commands first transmitted to the engines direct, and the levers then moved to match; or do the systems just move the levers so that the command is transmitted in the same way as if the pilots were controlling power manually?

From the engines' point of view, there is only one command...the thrust lever position. The autothrottle moves the thrust levers via servo, the flight crew does it via their arm, but the same chain happens. Thrust lever moves and updates resolver position, which commands AIMS, which commands EDIU, which commands EEC, which commands fuel/stator/etc.

I think. 777 is a complex beast.

Tom.


25 Post contains links OPNLguy : This just in... I have been informed by VERY reliable sources that the chaps at the AAIB have narrowed things down to two possible Gremlins... http://
26 Gh123 : Well the plane became one of the world's most famous in a day due to airline it belonged to and the fact that it happened at London Heathrow. You kno
27 Post contains images Airfoilsguy : I hate when that happens. One question I don't think has been answered. Did the landing gear break off immediately or only after the plane slammed in
28 Yanqui67 : To answer NAV20, The AIMS cabinets are two seperate units. They are composed of I think 8 black boxes each on two shelfs in the E/E electronic/Electri
29 RedFlyer : " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:P...1.jpg Interesting. Doesn't the gremlin from that Twilight Zone episode look an awful lot like
30 CX flyboy : So even when autothrottle is in use, the engines are getting commands from the lever positions and not elsewhere? What if I spilled a full glass of w
31 Post contains links and images DAirbus : Here's another theory on what happened. http://www.klydemorris.com/strips.cfm?strip_ID=1807
32 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks like A.netter E195 finally got his pictures back from the Polizei. The one of the aircraft just above the rooftops looks like a real prize-winne
33 Aerobalance : Amazing pictures! Damn
34 Etops1 : wow!!! great pics!! good job.
35 NAV20 : Thanks again, Yanqui67, clear and comprehensive. One has to assume that the levers DID move, both as commanded by the A/T and later when the flightcr
36 LTBEWR : The # 1 picture seems very scary, looks like it was approaching a landing at St. Martain instead of LHR. E195, you were a very lucky person. Is it pos
37 474218 : Never heard of Bon Scott (and never heard a AC/DC song that I know of) but the guy in the seat looks am lot like Gordon Brown (the British PM if you
38 E195 : thank you to all hope u like i have a picturebout 10 mins prior of another777 on finals there, let me go to work and ill post it up david
39 Post contains images NAV20 : DAMN lucky he wasn't standing about 100 yards to his left. What a shot!
40 FiveMileFinal : And I was just gonna ask if E195 had gotten his pics back...wow. I'm saddened by the fact that this will for all intents and purposes be the first hul
41 WestWing : Good photos E195! Can any one say from the first photograph whether the RAT was deployed? Or is it impossible to tell from the angle?
42 PhilSquares : Not only is the RAT NOT deployed, but the taxi lights are illuminated on the nose strut indicating at least one engine was at idle or greater.
43 WestWing : Thanks, and the landing light at the left wing root also seems to be illuminated.
44 Spacecadet : Great shots. I'd say the engines are both running at higher than windmill speed from the blur as well. There was a lot of light in that shot, meaning
45 SSTsomeday : Hello Guys: Sorry, but I don't share your sentiment about the threads on this topic. For one thing, amongst the unsubstantiated or uneducated theorie
46 Wukka : Which compounds the questions even more. The lights are on, so there was obviously power coming from somewhere, but at the same time, if you look at
47 Post contains images Wukka : Heh! Damn... we both got the exact opposite out of those pics. I still can't see the spinner blur. Then again, I'm getting older and my eyes suck.
48 ULMFlyer : I apologize for another useless post (which I tend to avoid), but this cracked me up. This post and that summary by IADCA in Part 6 are two of the be
49 ScrubbsYWG : so if the engines were spinning at some rate greater than idle, could that mean that the engines did not in fact 'fail' but just did not respond to ch
50 PhilSquares : Even with one engine inop, the landing/taxi lights would still be operational.
51 Je89_w : Interesting photos E195! Truly a job well done in getting that plane down with all those houses before the runway.
52 KLMD11L : It's amazing how fast things change, For instance when AF-358 took place two and half years ago the number of threads/posts was a fraction of what I'm
53 RebelDJ : Nice job E195 - you'll probably never have to buy yourself a pint again!!
54 SXI899 : Not suggesting that it contributed to the accident, but I take it that should the EEC alternator fail, the redundancy is that power is provided by th
55 PhilSquares : Each engine has two EEC PMGs which power the respective EEC channels. If one EEC PMGs fails then the other automatically picks up the task. The EEC c
56 Shenzhen : Would a windmilling engine provide electrical power, I doubt it a on approach. Just wondering at what point (airspeed) that a pilot should assume no
57 PhilSquares : The IDG won't produce any electric power if the wingmilling is pretty much below normal idle parameters. However, you will have hydraulics but since
58 Post contains images QantasHeavy : Isn't the purpose of a forum to share/discuss issues and put forth ideas? I am always amazed at how many people come into these and say stop speculati
59 Post contains images SSTsomeday : My theory on the huge interest in this accident is: in the case of AF-358, since the weather was so extreme, it meant that there was a move obvious o
60 HOOB747 : Amazing to have photos of the plane just prior to touchdown, I hope this helps aid the investigators in their search for clues. The photos are, if you
61 SSTsomeday : I agree. I'm noticing a trend, likely only coincidental, starting with AF in Toronto; - total hull loss in a huge fire, but not a single casualty. Al
62 Post contains images Seabosdca : Great post. A far more eloquent defense of these threads than mine in thread 6.
63 PhilSquares : Have his mind open to what? Speculation???? Why don't we just say the crash was caused by an alignment of the earth moon and planets that caused a ma
64 SXI899 : Thanks, Phil. I was pretty sure that what with all the redundancies in these systems that the odds of that being a contributing factor were slim to n
65 QantasHeavy : Yes I agree with that Phil. Indeed when people make bold assertions/assumptions that communicate information that is technically incorrect or incompl
66 Pihero : Every accident investigation begins with a *mystery*. You'd have to look somewhere else to explain the fascination and the popularity of these thread
67 StealthZ : Not really relavent to BA038 but the 1964 movie Fate is the Hunter had Glenn Ford trying to replicate a mysterious plane crash... even down to the st
68 TristarSteve : With only one engine running, just about everything in the flight deck, and everything the pilot needs will be working normally. Actually I would lik
69 Pihero : See ? Confirmed by a pro !
70 Post contains images AF1624 : The engines are NOT windmilling. They are (supposedly) on idle thrust. It's very, very different. " " " The IDG won't produce any electric power if t
71 EGCC777LR : Amazing pics E195, once in a lifetime moment, proves you should always carry a camera.....[Edited 2008-01-22 02:41:50]
72 Post contains links and images Wouwout : here's a completely new insight on the pilot http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/2001_hero_pilot_romp.shtml just kidding, we can continue on topic now
73 Flymad : Purely as a layman, I've thought about this as well. Could it not be that with new designs & materials, the a/c is absorbing more of the actual impac
74 Baroque : Noting what PhilS writes about redundancies, it seems there is no way to bypass all these intermediate steps with an emergency direct request to the
75 Mandala499 : I haven't participated much in this topic series due to the large numbers of posts of the following character: 1. It was the fault of the captain in n
76 CPHGuard : Initial reports stated that the APU was runnning when the Airport Rescue came to the crash sight. Can anyone confirm that the APU would supply the lan
77 PhilSquares : Yes, the APU Gen would supply the external lights. However, assuming the crew had the roll back at 2 miles roughly 40 seconds from touchdown, the APU
78 NAV20 : None of the published information so far says that either or both of the engines actually stopped running. The problem was that they 'failed to respo
79 Revelation : There wouldn't be seven threads if we didn't have all the chatter about whether or not we should even dare to speculate, and if so, exactly who has o
80 Pihero : 1/- I have no idea. 2/-There is a HOLD mode, not THR LOCK like on a 'Bus 3/-On SPEED mode, in theory the thrust should compensate for a below-demande
81 Pihero : A possibility. But contrary to the stabilisation criterion : The landing configuration should have been established latest at 1,000 AGL, some 400 ft
82 Gh123 : That's kind of you to say, thank you.
83 NAV20 : Very true, Pihero - but they will likely have had airspeed to spare at first, and they'd have been relying on the autothrottle to maintain the set sp
84 Post contains images Scbriml : Yes, it looks low and nose-up, but that photo is slightly misleading. It's clearly taken from the famous field at the end of Myrtle Avenue. A normal
85 Post contains links and images Dl_mech : It looks like you can see the super-cooled frost (from the cold fuel) on the wings around the engines.
86 NAV20 : Must admit, Scrimbl, looking at that picture, I thought that it was dead lucky that the owner of that house had recently had his tree lopped!
87 PhilSquares : What Pihero is trying to say is that according to most airline's SOPs and BA's specifically, they must be fully stabilised by 1000' on an instrument
88 Post contains links Max777geek : Italian news are reporting that one of the investigations directions is that a cellphone active could have been jamming the electronic systems on boar
89 Post contains images Scbriml : Yes, although the plane is probably at least 100m from that tree. Telephoto foreshortening does that.
90 Post contains images Starlionblue : Very cool. Note how the pilot is "grappling" as opposed to the more common "wrestling". Whatever happened to "flying"? By the way if anyone ever thin
91 Post contains links NAV20 : [ The story is available in English as well now, Max777geek - but it appears to be a bit of a 'beat-up,' based on an incident ten weeks ago when a cal
92 Post contains images NAV20 : Thanks, PhilSquares - didn't know that. Interesting to reflect though, that if they HAD followed strict procedure, and been at landing speed with fla
93 AF1624 : I don't want to speculate on any conspiracy theories or whatever but that seems rather possible. Electronic interferences affecting the aircraft's FA
94 Twinotter : Sarcastic, but raises a serious question. If it turns out that the airplane did shut down for no known reason, what then?
95 Queso : Then we wait for it to happen again, call it a problem rather than a glitch, and compare the results. Can you say "Comet"?
96 E195 : im glad you all like the pictures. There are more in the sequence, however since The rights are sold to the news papers (sun and daily mail) the only
97 Max777geek : This I think when I heard cellphone stories jamming airplane equipments : why that car did affect only that airplane and not everyone in the range ?
98 Post contains images Gh123 : So come on, how much did you get? [Edited 2008-01-22 06:30:43]
99 E195 : Ive just got a D80 and looking at getting to 500mm sigma lens too with change left David
100 Queso : Do you have links where we can see the pictures on their websites?
101 Starlionblue : The manufacturer puts out an advisory and the investigators keep looking. Same as with the 737 rudder reversals. As I recall those took years to figu
102 Fly747 : That was a very bad move... Ivan
103 Post contains links E195 : go to www.dailymail.co.uk www.thesun.co.uk to see them not with the amount i got thank you
104 OA260 : Congrats to you mate. Glad you used the money for good use !!!
105 E195 : thank you i have told them about this site, so hopefully the admins will see and the whole set etc...
106 Post contains images Fly747 : Well, you said you purchased a D80 and with the remainder you will buy the Bigma. To me it doesn't sound like a great deal at all. You should have ke
107 E195 : No i said ive got the d80 and will get the Bigma. the change is still a hell of alot more.... i will get some $$ everytime is gets sold on so heres h
108 Fly747 : David, good on you for getting a good deal then. If you're happy that's all that matters. Good shots, too bad we won't get to see them all. Ivan
109 Post contains links and images Leezyjet : I wonder what was going through the mind (or the trousers) of the driver of the silver Ford Mondeo in the 2nd pic in the Daily Mail link !!!. E195, di
110 Don81603 : One thing I'm curious about. Would the aircraft of final be shifted to 27R, or would they have been diverted to an alternate airport?
111 LHR27C : Errr.... no. What PhilSquares meant (I assume) by "On BA 38, the configuration was done below 1000'" was that once below 1000 feet the configuration
112 PhilSquares : On an instrument approach, configured NLT 1000'AGL, visual 500'AGL. Now, with all the speed restrictions, most airlines recognise the terminal area r
113 Post contains images Max777geek : Oh, we can easily tell, two words, the first was "holy", the second is not suitable for a gentlemen forum like this is.
114 LHR27C : No problem, I'm sure it's different between aircraft, I am just quoting what tends to happen on the 777 with BA where they do manage to be fully set
115 OA260 : That photo is just amazing !! You just keep looking at it and it seems so unreal.
116 Starlionblue : "Holy Mackerel, now the whole world will see I bought an uncool car!"
117 E195 : tell me about it, the whole thing is. as i say there are a total of 20 or so pictures, so fingers crossed you might get to see them through the paper
118 SSTsomeday : Well, was it you yourself who stated that you suspect that it is one engine that refused to spool rather than two, whereas that has not been suggeste
119 GBan : Referring to photo #3: (http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/01_04/p31plane3DM_800x512.jpg) I have the impression that I see a guy leaving the aircra
120 OA260 : Probably not. Some people interviewed said that some of the passengers took their hand luggage. I guess its hard to know what you would do in a situa
121 Sketty222 : Great photo's E195. Your so lucky to have been in the right place at the right time! On the above pic (no.2 in the sequence from daily mail links) ca
122 Post contains images Leezyjet : On looking at the pic again, I would hazard a guess that the amount of wet earth that the engines gorged up may have helped to reduce any potential fi
123 Gh123 : Yep, they're there alright.
124 E195 : i had wondered that, can you see the engine cover coming off...
125 Sketty222 : I really dont know how this aircraft didtn catch fire. On the 3rd photo in the sequence also has a bright orange light under the wing. It can be seen
126 Zeke : Anyone know what cause the hole in the fuselage aft of the starboard wing about the size of a window ? Was anything found in the aircraft ? Thanks for
127 Tdscanuck : The RH gear came off before the runway (it was left in the grass a few hundred meters back). The LH gear appears to have come off at impact, since it
128 Post contains images Leezyjet : I wonder what rejection reason the screeners here would have given that pic if you tried to upload it..........
129 AF1624 : First of all, thanks for the pictures, E195, they're great. And I don't think you're just lucky, I think you had the courage to capture the moment wit
130 Scbriml : My assumption (I know...), given that the starboard mlg sheared off, was that it struck the fuselage just aft of the wing. I think in one picture, ty
131 RJ777 : As everyone knows, the 777 undercarriage has 6 wheels. In the photos of the main landing gear, we see only 4. What happened to the other 2?
132 E195 : in my eyes i did get a very good price for them david[Edited 2008-01-22 08:43:46]
133 Post contains images DaBuzzard : Would be a side effect of a large pile of sod going through the engine I would think. Serious fod
134 Gearup : Great Pics man! It's a good thing the aircraft didn't make the runway on touchdown. When you think about it he put it down in the perfect place, insid
135 Post contains links Max777geek : http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/01_04/p31plane1DM_800x543.jpg Extra wheels found after brief search.
136 Max777geek : Sorry ?
137 SOBHI51 : I think that was a very smart move.He got great pictures and got paid for them.
138 Khobar : I think what he means is that where it actually came down was softer than had it come down on the runway itself. Some have speculated the grass and w
139 Thrust : So what's the story? Is the plane a writeoff or not? It certainly looks that way to me. It's amazing how far we have come technologically. The first 7
140 Post contains links Michlis : The latest from Aviation Week: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20In%20BA%20Crash%20&channel=comm
141 Sketty222 : I dont think they will be a thing of the past because a lot of aircraft incidents/crashes are because of pilot error
142 BOACVC10 : As some of the posters in this forum have copy/pasted the exact photos off the official website of the news agency that published them, David, do you
143 E195 : if it breaches it then thats for them and a.net to decide... ive not disclosed any pictures and as far as i can see the pictures posted by the users
144 Thrust : Ok, correction. Maybe not a thing of the past as long as humans are flying it, but as far as any accidents being a cause of a failure of some part of
145 Post contains images FiveMileFinal : Is bad motive still a valid one?
146 Gordonroxburgh : Is there anything else in the other pics of interest, or were the 2 main ones we've seent he ones that tell the story.
147 Psyops : What Ivan was saying is that a photographer should never give away the rights. A photo (or series of photos in this case) like this, over the lifetim
148 2H4 : Unfortunately, there will always be the risk of terrorism and hazardous cargo. 2H4
149 Scbriml : I would guess if the force of the impact was sufficient to shear off the mlg, it could easily have broken off one of the axles.
150 Post contains links E195 : i am very happy the problem was, the longer i kept them the less they are worth... there are others of it on approach, as i say the only way to see th
151 Post contains images Khobar : I did not say what you are responding to. That was SOBHI51.
152 Post contains links and images Spacecadet : I disagree. Here is an exposure calculator that will give you some rough ideas on shutter speed vs. aperture in various lighting conditions: http://w
153 GDB : If not already answered (buggered if I'm going through ALL the threads), the removal of BA titles from G-YMMM also indicates that BA no longer own it,
154 RedFlyer : " target=_blank>www.thesun.co.uk Where on thesun.co.uk site are the photos? All I see are the usual trashy articles about someone on crack and a real
155 797 : Guys where can I see E195's photos? Seems like they have been removed from the links. Thanks
156 Post contains links 2H4 : Here. 2H4
157 Post contains links Glbltrvlr : Still here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv..._article_id=509646&in_page_id=1770
158 Gremlin182 : Hello everyone - I have read most of the entries regarding this incident (some of which go into dizzying levels of detail) but as a layman I feel boun
159 797 : Thanks a lot guys!!! Incredibly lucky to be there at the right time. Congratulations E195!
160 Gordonroxburgh : I can only find 3 or 4 individual pics, I thought there are 20 or so?
161 Psyops : Maybe it takes time to be updated, but the UK GINFO registration database shows still owned by BA. Registration: G-YMMM Current Reg. Date: 31/05/2001
162 CO777ER : Look at reply 32.
163 Post contains images David L : That's not the worst suggestion we've heard - not by a long way! Welcome to Bedlam.
164 Gordonroxburgh : BA will still own it, its just a bit of a bad advert for them having it sitting there all shot up.
165 G-CIVP : Just be really pedantic, G-YMMM is probably mortgaged or leased to British Airways PLC via a merchant bank!
166 Aviateur : Birds. Has the birdstrike possibility been dismissed? PS[Edited 2008-01-22 11:26:46]
167 E195 : There are a load of the whole incident, the papers just not published them i do know they are out for usage, ie they are touting them for other magaz
168 EMAlad : Our local paper here in Derby is saying that the investigation states that the engines themselves were not at fault and that it most likely had someth
169 Tdscanuck : Engine sensors feed the EEC, which puts them on the ARINC bus back through the same path as the commands came in. There are some sensors around the e
170 Gordonroxburgh : Did you not retain copyright?
171 Airfoilsguy : Also in I don't see any indication in the pre crash photo that the plane hit any birds. (no blood and guts). On a side note: Anyone know how many bir
172 SSTsomeday : Believe me, I feel your pain. And I have seen some of the posts that you must be referring to that are big on conjecture and short on knowledge. Now,
173 Post contains images Loj : So we are already deep in Part 7. To much to dive into, but many thanks to PhilSquares, Pihero, Bellerophon, CX flyboy, MD11Engineer, Tristarsteve and
174 MSYtristar : I'd be very surprised if that was the case. I am by no means an aircraft propulsion expert, but I remember they had a prop of some sort (maybe a Conv
175 DiscoverCSG : Are there photos available of the titles being painted out, or removal from the end of 27L?
176 Post contains links LuiePL : I couldn't find any more about this system, so I created a page on wikipedia. Pretty interesting stuff, but I don't know nearly enough about it, so p
177 Viscount724 : The 737NG also went almost 9 years until its first hull loss which is equally impressive considering that far more 737NGs are in service and the aver
178 Gearup : There is a good chance this has been discussed but with such an enormous thread I might have missed it so please forgive me if I am going over old stu
179 David L : Yes, discussed. It's a thorny issue but some of us believe that aircraft was put into a position where it was too low and slow to recover in time whi
180 Post contains links TepidHalibut : I would not take the Derby Evening Telegraph as a fair judge of anything technical. The story quotes David Learmount, and also states that the engine
181 Spacecadet : Sport mode is intended to use a high shutter speed to stop action... so furthering my point above. Those fan discs are spinning at at least idle spee
182 Post contains links PhilSquares : I merely repeated an observation that was contained in www.bbcnews.com about two photos of the engines after the accident. I don't call that speculat
183 Post contains links Carduelis : Removal of aircraft v e r y slowly, so this is speeded-up version:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...m?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&bbcws=1
184 B707forever : " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...cws=1 Thanks for that link, interesting little show. THe aircraft doesn't look like a write of
185 Starlionblue : For a fire you need: - Fuel. - Oxidizer. - Ignition source. Fuel: There was some, but jet fuel needs to be vaporized to ignite. Oxidizer: Sure, there
186 Post contains links and images Gh123 : Thank God this didn't happen..........would have really made the evacuation difficult for the pax in the middle of the a/c. View Large View MediumPhot
187 Post contains images Zeke : Yes I saw that, but give the damage to the starboard horizontal stabilizer I was not sure.
188 Post contains links and images NAV20 : IASA ('International Aviation Safety Association') is not an official body (despite its official-sounding name) but it often appears to be unusually w
189 CCA : Thrust Reference Modes are displayed at the top of the upper EICAS, and SPD mode may be in the Autothrottle part of the FMA. I haven't mentioned any
190 CX flyboy : But even if the clutch disengages, the signals from the levers to the system are still electric so potentially this same glass of water could short t
191 Glbltrvlr : One of my favorite movies - and one of the few where the movie was better than the book. Should be mandatory viewing for every wannabe accident inves
192 Post contains images Glbltrvlr : And since I can't figure out how to deletet my own post , I repeat , I'll add that it does a very good job at explaining causal chains... That being
193 NAV20 : My guess is that that has its origins in the KISS' (Keep It Simple, Stupid) principle, CX flyboy. There's an argument that having two separate basic
194 Tdscanuck : That would be weird. Given that this was at the end of a long flight, the water scavenge system should have long ago remove any significant water acc
195 CX flyboy : That is very true, but it is beginning to look like whatever the real cause for this accident is, it will be one of those things which was not very l
196 TristarSteve : I was thinking of this a couple of days ago. I had a case on an RB211-524G. There was water collected in the P4 water drain trap that had frozen on t
197 Scbriml : I'm not a physicist, but I can certainly imagine a situation where the gear has sheared off (at which point it still has a lot of energy), then "cart
198 Post contains images JetMech : I believe that is exactly what happened with this A342. Regards, JetMech[Edited 2008-01-23 00:11:22]
199 Kieron747 : Didn't someone in an earlier thread say that it was where the firemen punched a hole to spray the foam inside the cabin? Kieron
200 Pihero : Yes. But what Boeing calls Thrust Reference Mode is nothing but the limits the engine will be running on, whether they are rated or de-rated settings
201 Pihero : Further to my earlier post , and to clarify the point : This is what you wrote and it is all correct !!!. Now let's take the sentences one by one : Co
202 Scbriml : Looks and sounds unlikely to me. Why "punch a hole" in the fuselage when all the doors are open and it looks like all the windows are broken?
203 TristarSteve : I must admit until this discussion started I did not know that one word was Boeing and one Airbus, I am still not sure. The earliest engine that I wo
204 Post contains images Zeke : Any engine that is "FBW" is generally said to be FADEC. Different engine manufactures have different terms for the same thing, it is not a "Boeing" t
205 Oldtimer : Agree, the fireman had no need to punch holes in the fuse as everyone was out and there was no fire, plus I am sure this is not used in Uk. Disagree
206 Post contains images Keesje : OMG !   I did run the pictures on my Cray all night & this came out.. I'm not sure what I see. It could definately be someone trying to sneak out un
207 Scbriml : Quite possible. At first glance, something about the windows looks odd, but I do agree now, they're probably not broken.
208 JAL : Is the plane salvageable or is it a total loss?
209 Post contains images Leezyjet : The RAT was still attatched to the airframe in the normal position when I saw it. It looked clean and undamaged and from E195's pics of the approach
210 Post contains images Starlionblue : PRess "Suggest deletion" and ask the mods. Indeed. Thanks for making that clear. Someone also said that LHR doesn't have those nozzles. But I don't k
211 AsstChiefMark : I believe that was addressed in parts 4 and 6. You kids aren't going to start a Part 8, are you?
212 Mandala499 : I thought my brain was playing up when I opened a 777 manual this afternoon and find it... "too simple to be true"... I looked at the Engine section
213 Gearup : Does anyone know if YMMM is in a hanger? Are there an photos of her in her present location? Thanks.
214 TristarSteve : No its outside, and they are building a temporary shed around it. It is still close to where it landed, outside Bay3 if you know it.
215 Tdscanuck : I'm not sure that the LHR fire crew tried to do it, but why bother trying to hit a door or window with the snozzle when you can just punch through th
216 Gh123 : Looks like it's time for Thread 8 Mr. Moderator!
217 RIXrat : Yup. The dry cleaners came in and hung it up. How many times does it take to spell "hangar" correctly? No offence to you, Gearup, but this simple spe
218 Gearup : No offence takin. I actaully do no how to spel hanger. Thanks for pointing that out. You would think I should know seeing as I have spent a good port
219 PHKLM : Gearup, get a grip. And leave that vodka off the table next time, will ya?
220 Richierich : With all the talk about the aircraft and what will become of it, anybody have any idea about the flight crew? Or the inflight crew? I am assuming that
221 AT : interesting point... When would the cockpit crew be allowed to go back to flying? And who makes that evaluation/determination? On another note, how is
222 474218 : With only 136 passengers on the Beijing to London fight, maybe BA should think of pulling the 777 the route.
223 Rdwootty : One little comment made in the Daily Mail I thought was interesting. "Reverse thrust" may have been operating, this could explain the loud engine nois
224 Post contains links Keesje : Unconfirmed reports circulate British airport authorities are considering additional safety measures. http://www.outpost.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Z-Privat
225 Tdscanuck : If the engine was in reverse the flight crew would have noticed. Besides representing a quadruple failure of protection systems, it would be difficul
226 Gh123 : If that was the case then we would have seen the reverse thrusters in action in the photo which was taken of the plane on final - posted above. We ca
227 Post contains images Aaresl : I (as a smart armchair-expert) have another theory... Maybe someone simply spilled coffee in thrust lever sensors and because of this no signals were
228 Hmmmm... : It is not your duty, nor your place, to chastise others for speculating. This is a open forum used for exactly that. With the exception of crazy cons
229 AsstChiefMark : I don't necessarily mind the speculating. It's the asking of the same questions over and over again that bugs me. For God's sake. There are seven par
230 Post contains images Halls120 : " target=_blank>http://www.outpost.pwp.blueyonder.co...y.gif just what we need - more unconfired reports. I'm with PhilSquares here. and if you want
231 Post contains links ScrubbsYWG : some interesting photos here: http://gallery.mac.com/gpixx#100033
232 Gh123 : THANK YOU for posting. A picture says a thousand words. On Airliners.net a picture says a thousand posts!
233 Zeke : Steve, Any idea if this aircraft had previously had an overheat on the P200 or P300 panel ? Could I assume the aircraft had the newer ELMS II panel ?
234 Starlionblue : Did you look at the pic dude?
235 Hotelmode : Another AAIB interim report expected today. They know what went wrong but still not why.
236 Post contains links WestWing : Read all about it. (Edited to add link and the following comment) Note there is nothing about any loss of electrical power/avionics.[Edited 2008-01-2
237 Airfoilsguy : Classic {Rotfl} {Rotfl} {Rotfl} {Rotfl}
238 Keesje : The auto throttle was ok. A failure on both engines seems highly unlikely. I did not read the hundreds of posts, but what is inbetween pushing the th
239 Cedarjet : Yes but Air France have accidents with monotonous regularity, Concorde etc, can't get a bag from an one [inbound] flight to another [outbound] at CDG
240 PhilSquares : Care to provide a link that indicates/states the APU was running. I know both engines were running above idle thrust so why would the APU be running?
241 Post contains links Keesje : I'm sure you don't want to sound arrogant (it becomes before the fall remember) , but perhaps remeber BA also has some experience with handling engin
242 Post contains images Leezyjet : And replace it with what exactly, an A321 with multi stops or an old 767-300 without the lastest onboard products and reduced cargo capacity ?. The 7
243 StealthZ : Really, first I have heard that it was, your confirmation is???
244 LHR27C : The APU inlet door is clearly open in photos after the aircraft came to a halt. Not to suggest it was actually running but it was at least in the sta
245 Starlionblue : No aircraft has this kind of logic since there are times when you want full thrust even during approach and landing. You can't have the aircraft refu
246 Cedarjet : As our friend LHR27C says, the inlet door was open. This also proves one engine had shut down cos the crew wouldn't have had time to manually start i
247 Keesje : The engines did not shut down and both engines continued to produce thrust at an engine speed above flight idle, but less than the commanded thrust.
248 PhilSquares : 1) The APU inlet door is open. That is all. 2) The APU will only auto start when the loss of BOTH engines is sensed. 3) Please read the AAIB update f
249 Cedarjet : Really? I thought one down was enough to kick start the APU. I did not know that. I thought they lost one completely and one was still turning. Cheer
250 Post contains links Dazbo5 : For those interested in real facts and not speculation, the latest update from the AAIB is available on their website: http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/late
251 DBCC : " target=_blank>http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/latest_ne...e.cfm "...The AAIB, sensitive to the needs of the industry including ...." aaahhhh, so the tru
252 NAV20 : More likely on the face of it that ATC and captains flying ANY make will be advised to break off continuous descent approaches and fly straight and l
253 Post contains links Khobar : "During aircraft operation, fuel is withdrawn from fuel tanks on the aircraft and is passed to a filter at the inlet to the engine fuel system. To pr
254 LHR27C : No, it has to be a major power loss and as each engine has 2 generators the APU will not automatically start if you just lose one.
255 WestWing : That is what I thought too (and asked in the Tech/Ops thread) about the APU inlet having opened due to the force of the impact. A related question is
256 Planefixer : The APU auto starts when loss of electrical power detected on either essential AC bus. The APU will attempt an air start before a battery start. Also,
257 WestWing : Not relevant to this thread, just idle curiosity. Does weight on wheels feed into the APU autostart logic?
258 PhilSquares : Having flown a similar route, only eastbound from Europe, I can tell you the temps at 380 were well below what you'd normally see. We had several hou
259 Glbltrvlr : Many years ago I did a 747SP trip from LAX to SYD where the water lines in the front of the plane froze up. The last couple of hours of the trip we h
260 Tdscanuck : You removed the rest of the sentence that puts it in context...the AAIB is sensitive to the needs of the industry *to know what's going on* which is
261 Valkyrie01 : Each thrust lever is mechanically connect to TLA resolver.When thrust lever moves (manually as in you moving the thrust lever or automatic the asm mo
262 TristarSteve : Yes the APU autostart is inhibited on the ground. I reckon that the aircraft hit the ground, the WOW sensors were removed in the crash, the generator
263 Mandala499 : I wonder what the OATs at its final crz FL was like just prior to TOD to LHR that day...
264 Khobar : From the article: "The times when the greatest heating is required, i.e. when icing of the fuel filter is most likely, are often those times when the
265 Spacecadet : From the AAIB's newest update: [the engines] did not shut down and both engines continued to produce thrust at an engine speed above flight idle, but
266 Beefmoney : Earlier in the (7) threads, someone posted a video of the landing, but it was removed from youtube before I was able to see it. Has anyone been able t
267 Post contains links and images Srbmod : Please continue the discussion here: BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 8 (by Srbmod Jan 24 2008 in Civil Aviation) Any posts posted after the thread has
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