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United Posts A 4th Quarter Loss  
User currently offlineSkytony From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 145 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4448 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080122/earns_ual.html?.v=1

Let the United Airlines bashing begin.


Lower your expectations! You will always be pleasantly surprised!
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB777A340Fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4434 times:

I suggest taking the bonuses from the execs and you'll have a profit. It sometimes boggles my mind when a company's CEO is running the company into the ground and still getting his/her bonus.

[Edited 2008-01-22 06:09:10]

User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4383 times:

Its a loss, but it could be worse. At least they have improved the margin, and made a profit for the year as a whole.

The new premium product should help steal some traffic from AA over the atlantic and the pacific, and if they are lucky they might be able to charge a premium for it as well.

Overall, things could be a lot worse for UA.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Not totally unexpected figures but all the same, still a loss for the quarter.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....le_Financial&ID=1098459&highlight=


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4368 times:



Quoting Skytony (Thread starter):
Let the United Airlines bashing begin.

AA also had a loss, and I also see Delta pulling a loss too.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4286 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 4):
AA also had a loss, and I also see Delta pulling a loss too.

So? What does that have to do with UA? Both UA and DL should not be posting losses, given their recent time in BK. AA is the only US network carrier still trying to make it without using BK, but that might not be the case if we have a full recession and people tighten their discrestionary spending.


User currently offlineFloorrunner From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4253 times:



Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 1):
suggest taking the bonuses from the execs and you'll have a profit. It sometimes boggles my mind when a company's CEO is running the company into the ground and still getting his/her bonus.

Amen to that. The company I work for, If you don't show a profit no one gets a bonus.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4226 times:



Quoting Floorrunner (Reply 6):
Amen to that. The company I work for, If you don't show a profit no one gets a bonus.

Who at UA is getting a bonus for the 4th quarter?


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9633 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4068 times:

UA did report a 2007 income of 407 million, which is its first profit since 2000.

It is impossible to think UA could have made a profit after all the cancellations they had. Sure the weather was a factor, but when it got down to all the crew shortages causing cancellations in December, UA would suffer since that is their fault and they have to foot the bill for many travelers.

Weather alone doesn't mean that the airline loses a lot of money. A winter storm shutting down a hub doesn't necessarily hurt the bottom line. Yes flights are cancelled and passengers are stranded, but the airline benefits from having a high load factor and not having to pay fuel and associated costs for the cancelled flights. Although weather does mean there are big problems, full on shut down of a hub might not be as bad as you'd think. I remember reading a case study of what happened when one airline shut down a hub for two days due to snow. They ended up profiting, but I will say, that that is rare.

[Edited 2008-01-22 07:51:16]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25330 posts, RR: 49
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

A few points.

A) Lets put things in perspective: 53mil loss on $5bil in revenue is just a 1% negative margin.
B) Loss was expected by analyst. To their surprise UA actually posted significantly better numbers ($.47 per share vs expected $0.89)
C) Yes weather, fuel touching $100/bbl and the operational mess in December all hurt the quarters performance
D) Strong improvements in revenue, yield and margins in '07 while non fuel cost remained almost flat.
E) Company paid down $2bil in debt during the year
F) $403mil full net year profit - (near $1bil operating profit) First net profit since 2000!
G) Kudos to all UA employees. Hope you enjoy the 2007 profit sharing checks!



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 8):
Sure the weather was a factor, but when it got down to all the crew shortages causing cancellations in December

And planes that go mechanical. Seems like United has more delays and cancellations due to broken aircraft than other airlines. I've been a victim too many times over the past months. Sure anecdotal, but I'm seriously thinking of switching to another carrier.

[Edited 2008-01-22 08:50:22]

User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

Would this make UA more or less appealing to Delta for a merger bid?


If Your Dying Were Flying
User currently onlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5951 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Other interesting bits out of the press release....

paid (or will pay) 170 million dollars to the employees (profit sharing, success sharing, special distribution)

reduced its debt load by 2.3 billion dollars in 2007 including almost $700 million in the fourth quarter


Chuck



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26481 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3611 times:



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 3):
Not totally unexpected figures but all the same

Actually, I would say that they were rather unexpected in that United was projected to lose twice as much.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
E) Company paid down $2bil in debt during the year

That is a rather impressive number, given that their exit financing amounted to something like $3 billion



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

These are fantastic numbers... and will support consolidation campaigns at all carriers.

He can say "look we did fantastic, but it still wasn't good enough".

Delta and United will never merge, but when Delta and Northwest do then Continental and United tying up will happen faster.

NS


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3483 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
Delta and United will never merge, but when Delta and Northwest do then Continental and United tying up will happen faster.

 checkmark 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Actually, I would say that they were rather unexpected in that United was projected to lose twice as much.

Agreed. I didn't want to sound too happy that the figures were better than expected otherwise one of the DL rose tinted glasses gang would come on here, ripping holes in the figures!  Wink


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26481 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3461 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
These are fantastic numbers... and will support consolidation campaigns at all carriers.

With these kinds of profits and United making quick work of the debt service obligations, I think it hurts the idea that consolidation is a good thing.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2869 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
(near $1bil operating profit)

This is even more telling. This is up in the range of 50% YOY.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
With these kinds of profits and United making quick work of the debt service obligations, I think it hurts the idea that consolidation is a good thing.

I agree to a point...I think the synergy's created through a consolidation can prove to be even more profitable.

-m

 airplane 


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2538 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
A few points.

A) Lets put things in perspective: 53mil loss on $5bil in revenue is just a 1% negative margin.
B) Loss was expected by analyst. To their surprise UA actually posted significantly better numbers ($.47 per share vs expected $0.89)
C) Yes weather, fuel touching $100/bbl and the operational mess in December all hurt the quarters performance
D) Strong improvements in revenue, yield and margins in '07 while non fuel cost remained almost flat.
E) Company paid down $2bil in debt during the year
F) $403mil full net year profit - (near $1bil operating profit) First net profit since 2000!
G) Kudos to all UA employees. Hope you enjoy the 2007 profit sharing checks!

All great points and proof that United management aren't total idiots as most people on this forum believe. United has been concentrating on getting their books in order, and this proves that they have been successful at it.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
With these kinds of profits and United making quick work of the debt service obligations, I think it hurts the idea that consolidation is a good thing.

I thought the same thing, the cost of a merger is enormous and I wonder if the benefits are as great as everyone says although I would love to see a CO/UA merger because I think the resulting network would be amazing!


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2457 times:



Quoting CO767FA (Reply 5):
So? What does that have to do with UA? Both UA and DL should not be posting losses, given their recent time in BK. AA is the only US network carrier still trying to make it without using BK, but that might not be the case if we have a full recession and people tighten their discrestionary spending.

Ok, you obviosuly missed the point of my post. I was saying that it's not a big deal that United posted a "loss". Most other carriers will.

And yes, Delta posted a loss of $70m today. This is all not too shabby considering the price of fuel and the fact that they were posting multi billion dollor losses each quarter before bankruptcy...



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2413 times:



Quoting United787 (Reply 18):
I thought the same thing, the cost of a merger is enormous and I wonder if the benefits are as great as everyone says although I would love to see a CO/UA merger because I think the resulting network would be amazing!

I'm not convinced the costs savings are as great as they claim. Already NW unions have said they will expect the higher wage at Delta, and the Delta folks have said they want the higher benefits that the NW unions have. To placate them management will dish out raises of 10% or so.

Yes you can cut off some redundant routes, but that capacity will soon be filled with LCCs anyway. Given DL is losing money now after a bankruptcy how will they make money with giving raises out?


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2393 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 20):
Given DL is losing money now after a bankruptcy how will they make money with giving raises out?

They have only been out a few months...

Even so, they aren't doing too shabby.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2366 times:

DL and UA actually posted pretty comparable numbers. UA is more international than DL which helps them some but DL has implemented financial improvement far faster. UA pulled alot of domestic capacity alot faster which helps. It is clear that international flying is where the opportunities lie. Given that DL still has domestic a/c it can redeploy to int'l markets and has 777LRs on order, DL probably has an advantage.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26481 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2313 times:



Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 17):
I think the synergy's created through a consolidation can prove to be even more profitable.

I don't see that at this point, and here is why. The airline we are talking about are already very large with rather comprehensive route networks. While they make be a touch light in one area of the country or another, they have a solid presence anywhere. I think the best thing for United to do, especially seeing that they have paid significant debt service, would be to expand their long and short haul fleets and grow organically.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2242 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
A) Lets put things in perspective: 53mil loss on $5bil in revenue is just a 1% negative margin.
B) Loss was expected by analyst. To their surprise UA actually posted significantly better numbers ($.47 per share vs expected $0.89)
C) Yes weather, fuel touching $100/bbl and the operational mess in December all hurt the quarters performance
D) Strong improvements in revenue, yield and margins in '07 while non fuel cost remained almost flat.
E) Company paid down $2bil in debt during the year
F) $403mil full net year profit - (near $1bil operating profit) First net profit since 2000!
G) Kudos to all UA employees. Hope you enjoy the 2007 profit sharing checks!

Hi Laxintl, you're right. With oil prices less expensive in Q1 2008 i expect UA will be back to profit track.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
25 FlyASAGuy2005 : That's is the point I am trying to bring across in another thread. These carriers, for the most part, seem to be doing fine by themselves. Delta can
26 Bobnwa : DL was not posting multi billion dollar loses each quarter before bankrupcy, Neither was any other airline. A gross exageration on your part. DL was
27 N1120A : Actually, the poster was exactly right. Their 4Q 2004 loss was $2.2 billion and their full year loss was $5.2 billion.
28 UAORD2000 : For the full year 07, United posted a profit that was the best since 99. Impressive.
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