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SIA Considers All-Business-Class Service To USA  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24853 posts, RR: 46
Posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 11607 times:

Sounds like the current A345 operation must be doing terrible.

Quote:
SIA Considers All-Business-Class Service
01/23/2008,

Singapore Airlines is considering an all-business class service from Singapore to New York and Los Angeles.

Per the airline's head of corporate affairs, Stephen Forshaw, all five Airbus A340-500s currently used on the routes would have to receive a complete interior refurbishment.

SIA currently operates the aircraft in a dual-class configuration, with business and premium economy seating. The operation has been suffering particularly from high fuel prices, and SIA CEO Chew Choon Seng has said in the past that based on the current market environment, the airline would not launch the ultra-long-haul service again. Forshaw insisted that no firm decision has been made yet.

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59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11610 times:

I would think that a two class business and first arrangement would also be a pretty decent idea.

NS


User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 794 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11445 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Sounds like the current A345 operation must be doing terrible.

Instead of refurbishing the A345s, they could order B772LRs. They are more fuel efficient, fly further, and can carry more passengers and cargo. They'd be able to fit more of their A380/773ER-style first and business class seats on 772LRs than their A345s. Maybe they could switch the nonstop EWR service to nonstop JFK service. They might get more business that way.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9503 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11320 times:

I'm not completely surprised at this. I've flown EWR-SIN-EWR and there are tons of business class travelers on the route. Half the plane is already business class. I wouldn't be surprised if the business class seats are subsidizing the economy seats. Those economy seats are far more expensive to SQ than routing passengers via FRA. The A345 can make the route, but business class fares and seats make more sense. It would be great to see first and business class only, but I don't know if the A345s can take the first class seats. First class seats are ridiculously heavy and the 18 hour flight is a push on the A345.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11287 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 2):
They are more fuel efficient, fly further, and can carry more passengers and cargo.

And cost $200 million dollars.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
It would be great to see first and business class only, but I don't know if the A345s can take the first class seats

It can take them. Especially if you clear out all those economy class seats.

EK operates A340-500s with very heavy suites aboard.

NS


User currently offlineVHHYI From Australia, joined Oct 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11261 times:



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 2):
Instead of refurbishing the A345s, they could order B772LRs.

That was ruled out some time ago. I suspect as a niche product ordering LR's for the routes now isn't going to make much more money.

Isn't the A345 product lagging behind the newer 773ER/A380 offerings? It makes sense for them to fit the new ones throughout.



This Porsche is like an Airbus;an Engineering marvel, but without passion - Jeremy Clarkson
User currently offlineMeta From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11246 times:

Does anybody know what the loads are like on these flights??

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11230 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
I would think that a two class business and first arrangement would also be a pretty decent idea.

I agree. Equip the planes with 6 Suites (1-1-1 config) and the rest with the new J product in 1-2-1, and if demand proves to be there in the future, upgrade to 9 Suites and remove 8J seats. It's basically an A380 without the hassle of dragging 400Y pax around...  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24859 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11153 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
It would be great to see first and business class only, but I don't know if the A345s can take the first class seats

It can take them. Especially if you clear out all those economy class seats.

EK operates A340-500s with very heavy suites aboard.

But not on any routes as far as SIN-EWR.

SQ's A340-500s also have a very low-density economy class layout with only 7-abreast (2-3-2) instead of the more usual 2-4-2, and about 37 inch seat pitch. The Y class seats on the A345s are more like a premium economy product, and very similar to business class when it was first introduced in the late 1970s.


User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11064 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
SQ's A340-500s also have a very low-density economy class layout with only 7-abreast (2-3-2) instead of the more usual 2-4-2, and about 37 inch seat pitch. The Y class seats on the A345s are more like a premium economy product, and very similar to business class when it was first introduced in the late 1970s.

Thats for sure the dilemma and problem SQ is trying to solve.
Low density executive economy class that takes alot of floor area but with far less yield than J or F class.
SQ have done a good job, working this product to what it is today, and this is the next step to take.

This should be a good move by SQ.

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 2):
Maybe they could switch the nonstop EWR service to nonstop JFK service

Don't really think that matters. If you want to fly to NY direct, you take the SQ flight, and weather you land on JFK or EWR is not a big issue if you ask me.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17347 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10997 times:



Quoting Meta (Reply 6):
Does anybody know what the loads are like on these flights??

They're not very full...I think in the low 70s.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineTsentsan From Singapore, joined Jan 2002, 2016 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10984 times:

I think the A345s going all J is more or less a given already. Economy class tickets arent sold on those flights in the later part of the year anymore.


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User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10707 times:

I have a question on the mileage redemption and accrual agreement between DL and SN in connection with SN's nonstop services to the U.S. I am sorry if this is not exactly the topic that is being discussed in this thread.

Is it possible to redeem DL SkyMiles for a non-stop SIN-LAX-SIN or SIN-EWR-SIN A340-500 flight in executive economy? If so, how many miles would that cost? If I am not mistaken, the SkyMiles chart shows how many miles it costs to fly in coach, business and first to Singapore (Southeast Asia), but there is no mention of premium economy.

Thanks!



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10693 times:

Executive economy isn't really a class, is it? Its just sold as Y if I'm not mistaken.

That being said, I bet you come up with zero availability on that flight. SQ would be mad to offer inventory on that particular flight to Delta or anyone else really.

I'd imagine they route all FFP traffic to their other flights.

NS


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10597 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
That being said, I bet you come up with zero availability on that flight. SQ would be mad to offer inventory on that particular flight to Delta or anyone else really.

I'd imagine they route all FFP traffic to their other flights.

Makes quite a lot of sense. Thanks for the input. Just for kicks I will call SkyMiles one day and ask. I have found that it is easier to book a reward ticket if you call their hotline (in the case of customers calling from Mexico, the callcenter it is in Santiago de Chile) and give to the agent the specific flights, rather than trying to do it online.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4748 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10577 times:



Quoting Tsentsan (Reply 11):
I think the A345s going all J is more or less a given already. Economy class tickets arent sold on those flights in the later part of the year anymore.

I wonder what is going to happen to the SIN-CGK-SIN flights on the A345? Will it still continue? If not how are the crew going to clock their cycles?



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineSQ772 From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 1792 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10515 times:



Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
I wonder what is going to happen to the SIN-CGK-SIN flights on the A345? Will it still continue? If not how are the crew going to clock their cycles?

I don't think CGK will have difficulty filling up an all J A345. Many of SQ's Solitaires and PPS were born from pax who flew SIN-CGK-SIN in F/J on almost a weekly basis...



There's always a better way to fly...
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10501 times:



Quoting EddieDude (Reply 14):
I have found that it is easier to book a reward ticket if you call their hotline (in the case of customers calling from Mexico, the callcenter it is in Santiago de Chile) and give to the agent the specific

I would do that... but when you do, give them the flights you want and provide NO additional information. Just be like these are the flights I want and coach is fine.

Otherwise, well, you know how they can be.

NS


User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10495 times:
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Do the LAX nonstops perform better than the EWR flights?

User currently offlineTCT From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10476 times:

I really dont think this proposal will workout, I know somone who travels on the nonstop EWR-SIN route very frequently in buisness class and they told me that the flight is usually not full at all, including both classes so I dont think converting the A345 in all buisness will be a sucess in t. I do think this type of configuration will workout on the LHR-SIN route as well as there SIN-SYD route, which are the routes most buisness travlers fly on.

User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10392 times:



Quoting TCT (Reply 19):
I really dont think this proposal will workout, I know somone who travels on the nonstop EWR-SIN route very frequently in buisness class and they told me that the flight is usually not full at all, including both classes so I dont think converting the A345 in all buisness will be a sucess in t. I do think this type of configuration will workout on the LHR-SIN route as well as there SIN-SYD route, which are the routes most buisness travlers fly on.

Normally, the flights are full both ways on all days except Tues-Wed ex US and Wed-Thur ex Singapore. I don't know who you've been talking to but they are wrong.

The issue is there is a very strong demand for J seats on both routes. There is virtually no chance of any upgrades on the busy days and no chance of award travel in J on the busy days. Converting the aircraft to all J would allow more revenue to be generated and provide a product that seems to be in demand.


User currently offlineTCT From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10348 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 20):
Normally, the flights are full both ways on all days except Tues-Wed ex US and Wed-Thur ex Singapore. I don't know who you've been talking to but they are wrong.

When he travels on the route he travels on either Mon,Tues,Wed, or Thurs, Im pretty sure when I talked to him about this, this wouldnt be something a person would lie about and lets not forget its an 19 hour flight he does walk around the aircraft and im pretty sure you can see if the aircraft is empty, but maybe you are right he does travel Mon-Thurs maybe its just those days were its pretty empty


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10289 times:



Quoting TCT (Reply 21):
but maybe you are right he does travel Mon-Thurs maybe its just those days were its pretty empty

Define "pretty empty"?


User currently offlineTCT From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10245 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
Define "pretty empty"?

When he explains it he says out of the 64 J seats they usually fill up to between 35-52 seats on average, out of the 117 seats in Y he says theres usually 4 people to a row and, he told me this through an e-mail recently when I asked him. I dont know about you but i consider this pretty empty.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10189 times:



Quoting TCT (Reply 23):
When he explains it he says out of the 64 J seats they usually fill up to between 35-52 seats on average, out of the 117 seats in Y he says theres usually 4 people to a row and, he told me this through an e-mail recently when I asked him. I dont know about you but i consider this pretty empty.

Your own figures equal to a 66%LF in Y and a 50-81.5 LF in C. That's not too bad, but a further look at the GDS shows for the next two weeks both EWR and LAX have limited availability in both C and Y. Most days C is completely sold out and Y is very limited.

Again, the issue is the demand for C seats. Most business travelers will be able to travel in C at company expense, please note I said most not all, and as a result the demand on the non-stop far outstripes the supply. I have friends who live here in SIN who have tried to book months in advance in J only to be waitlisted and never cleared. These people are the PPS highest level members.


25 TCT : The person whom I know that flies on this route does work for a company and flies this roundtrip route once a month and his seat in J gets booked man
26 PhilSquares : Please re-read my post. I said that limited seats were available but on most days, especially from SIN-EWR/LAX as that is what I quoted, the flights
27 TCT : Thanks for the info.
28 JWMD123 : I flew on the SIN-LAX route about a year and a half ago when oil was in the $70 mark. The A345 flight I was on was full. One of the best flights I hav
29 Columba : The fuel savings they would have would never justify to acquire new aircraft. The idea of going all business class on the A345 is not too bad. Whe ne
30 Ag92 : These are all the comments which I have heard from a forum called SQTalk which this discussion of converting the Airbus 340-500 has been going since a
31 Ronerone : Quite expected. Your average price-conscious Economy Class passenger is most likely to choose the much cheaper seat to SIN that's via FRA than to choo
33 9VSWA : Been talked about for a long time. IMO probably just a matter of time before the A345s go in for the cabin reconfig. It'll be interesting though to se
34 MaverickM11 : No they've averaged in the mid 70s throughout the last 12 months.
35 Ag92 : Apparently on the SQ flights it isn't a big difference ex. India
36 PhilSquares : I think you'll find they're a little higher than that, more around the 80% mark over all. And J is averaging closer to 90%.
37 MaverickM11 : No this is what SQ is reporting to the DOT.
38 Keesje : It's not the aircraft type, its the operation. FYI instead of one 20 hr flight you could do two 10 hr (e.g transatlantic) flights with cargo with the
39 Gigneil : Philsquares works for SQ. NS
40 PhilSquares : Just so you're aware, that also includes belly capacity. If you're talking about just pax load then it's going to be higher than the combined cargo/p
41 Post contains links MaverickM11 : I'm only talking about passenger load factor. http://www.transtats.bts.gov/DL_Sele...D=261&DB_Short_Name=Air%20Carriers
42 BP1 : IMHO this is a fantastic idea and has already been tested on the North Atlantic. Just look at eos Airlines and Silverjet (yes Maxjet is out, but their
43 YULWinterSkies : Sorry, i for one don't get it. They want to INCREASE the J seating offer and you say the operation is doing terrible? It must be doing so well instea
44 Airbazar : It's doing "terrible" from a yields perspective. It's no secret that the yields on those flights aren't terribly good and since day 1 SQ wished they
45 Coza777 : I don't think it's a EWR vs. JFK issue. Both can handle business passengers equally. In fact, EWR has advantages such as a more navigable airport and
46 Ari : If an all premium class A345 is introduced....what implications would this have on the economy and premium loads on the other frequencies between dest
47 TCT : When it comes to the issue of getting in and out of the city easly EWR is defanitly better then JFK.
48 Airbazar : Good question and interesting things start to unravel like a possible LHR-JFK so the A380 would accomodate those extra customers.
49 PolymerPlane : How did you figure that? My calculation yields lowest load factor of 82% for one of the segment originated from SIN (4471/5430) for 2007. As for the
50 Carfield : I don't think it is any secret that SQ has considered buying 77L and had decided against it due to the price tag... (Qantas also decides against 77L f
51 MaverickM11 : I don't know what you're using but I ran it again and for the first half of 2007 (that's all that is available), the average for EWRSIN was 78% and 7
52 Coal : Well this is bad news to me. It would mean that a) I can't buy an econ seat anymore and upgrade to Raffles using my miles and b) it means that if I st
53 TCT : I like this idea alot, however I think this idea will be highly successful with routes outside of the US.
54 Keesje : I think it doesn´t work this way. Would they put less business class seats in or go 7 abreast (middle seat) or 4 abreast like on the 777-300ER? Mark
55 Abrelosojos : = From a report I read earlier, LF is usually 80% in J, and 65-70% in Y. I have done both routes on SEVERAL occasions (including a TR somewhere), and
56 RayChuang : I wouldn't be surprised that SQ converts their A340-500's to an all-Business class seating within the next year or so. By filling the the plane with a
57 SQ772 : From my understanding and from talks with people in SQ, Y+ yields were not good, while J yield were excellent... and it therefore made sense to get r
58 Ronerone : From the UAE, the price difference is HUGE. In fact, I always get the full IATA fare quoted whenever i enquire about flights that connect to the EWR
59 Airbazar : True. Unfortunately Y+ yields are dragging down total trip yields. As someone suggested, I wonder how a 2-class config (F+J) would work on these rout
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