1 B757capt: These are very interesting numbers. Now we just need to see the operational costs........
2 Tornado82: The numbers I am going to give are revenue per passenger nautical mile. I believe RASM would also take into account load factors, therefore would be e
3 Luv2fly: It's the $2.00 cokes that is making them money, and all the shopping items they offer.
4 Knope2001: Thanks for posting this very interesting stuff! Do you have a web source for this? The source I use just posted 2nd quarter data and seems a quarter o
Wjcandee From United States, joined Jun 2000, 3746 posts, RR: 20 Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4424 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 2): I believe RASM would also take into account load factors
I don't think so. It's Revenue Per Available Seat Mile. It's a function of how many seats in the plane, and really has nothing to do, per se, with load factor. Available seat miles is a higher number for aircraft with more seats, and lower for aircraft with fewer seats. Higher denominator, lower RASM, ceteris paribus. Lower denominator, higher RASM. One criticism of JetBlue pulling seats (justified or not) from the A320 was that it was done in an effort to make its RASM higher with the same number of passengers flying per plane. It was allegedly a way of muting criticism of its financials (low RASM) quickly, without actually changing anything meaningful. (There are a million countervailing arguments, including that this simultaneously drove up its CASM, but that was the criticism, and I use it to illustrate how easy it is to fudge RASM in the short term.)
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4401 times:
Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 5):
I don't think so. It's Revenue Per Available Seat Mile. It's a function of how many seats in the plane, and really has nothing to do, per se, with load factor. Available seat miles is a higher number for aircraft with more seats, and lower for aircraft with fewer seats. Higher denominator, lower RASM, ceteris paribus. Lower denominator, higher RASM.
The numbers I calculated were just revenue per passenger mile. If 100 pax pay 100 dollars to go 1000 miles... your RPM is 10 cents per mile. Your total revenue is $10,000, and your total passenger miles are 100,000. But if those 100 pax were on a 200 seat aircraft... your revenue is still $10,000 but your available seat miles were actually 200,000. Therefore your RASM is 5 cents.
Point being, if SX's RPM is in the 4-5 cent range on some flights... the RASM has to be even lower yet, which is just dismal. Obviously SX isn't flying 200 seat aircraft, but I was using easily roundable numbers for the demonstration. Assuming a 75% LF, that 4.668 cents RPM equates to a RASM of 3.501 cents.
So how many $2 Cokes, and $10 checked bags do they need to make up for that?
Joeljack From United States, joined Feb 2005, 522 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3905 times:
Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 8): The MCI flight just looks plain dismal - and I'm typically a big supporter of SX. Hopefully the ILG and IAG runs will improve the general trend.
What would one expect with the flight leaving and arriving at 2 or 3am. I looked at this flight for someone until I realized it was in the middle of the night! Not going to find too many people on this flight for anything more than a dirt cheap price!
FlyDeltaJets87 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 4513 posts, RR: 24 Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3866 times:
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3): It's the $2.00 cokes that is making them money, and all the shopping items they offer.
Even if 100 passengers by a pop, selling $200 worth of coke per flight isn't going to cut it either.
Is their biggest money maker cheked baggage and priority boarding passes?
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 9): Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 8):
The MCI flight just looks plain dismal - and I'm typically a big supporter of SX. Hopefully the ILG and IAG runs will improve the general trend.
What would one expect with the flight leaving and arriving at 2 or 3am. I looked at this flight for someone until I realized it was in the middle of the night! Not going to find too many people on this flight for anything more than a dirt cheap price!
And while not direct, Southwest is easy enough to fly on that route with more flight options and still reasonable fares.
they have changed the timings considerably on that route this month! afternoon roundtrip rather than middle of the nigth as before....The trip back to CMH used to leave at 1000pm -ish and arrive almost 100am..thats a hard sell at any price!! i think it now leaves at 145pm
Gregarious119 From United States, joined Jun 2006, 463 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3745 times:
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 10): And while not direct, Southwest is easy enough to fly on that route with more flight options and still reasonable fares.
Yeah I'm hoping to try CMH-ILG sometime this summer to see how the airport compares. My wife and I have done CMH-PHL quite a few times (for $25, 34, and $59 fares) so it'll be interesting to compare the two.
SX will have a hard time getting upward pressure on those fares with CMH-PHL being so cheap already, but the delays at PHL may be enough to balance that out.
SafetyDemo From United States, joined Sep 2007, 203 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3355 times:
Southwest also flies CMH-PHL and everytime I flew it (both times around Christmas) the airplane was empty. So, if people aren't willing to fly WN for 39 dollars each way (what I paid) ... is the additional 29 dollars off for the first ten people going to make a big difference for SX? I'd rather spend the 29 dollars and get a free drink, free checked baggage, and happy employees. And, oh yeah, land at the airport I really want to fly into, PHL. Which is MUCH closer to where my family is (the NW suburbs) than Wilmington, DE.
safetyDemo
Please direct your attention to the flight attendants in the cabin...
Gregarious119 From United States, joined Jun 2006, 463 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2702 times:
Quoting SafetyDemo (Reply 13): Southwest also flies CMH-PHL and everytime I flew it (both times around Christmas) the airplane was empty. So, if people aren't willing to fly WN for 39 dollars each way (what I paid) ... is the additional 29 dollars off for the first ten people going to make a big difference for SX? I'd rather spend the 29 dollars and get a free drink, free checked baggage, and happy employees. And, oh yeah, land at the airport I really want to fly into, PHL. Which is MUCH closer to where my family is (the NW suburbs) than Wilmington, DE.
I'd be curious to see load factor numbers for that route on US and WN, since most of the flights i've been on have been chock full.
SafetyDemo From United States, joined Sep 2007, 203 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2578 times:
Quoting Gregarious119 (Reply 14): I'd be curious to see load factor numbers for that route on US and WN, since most of the flights i've been on have been chock full.
I've always seen nearly-full to full flights on USAirways, but keep in mind these are all 70 or 86 seaters I've been seeing. As for WN, the four times I flew the route are obviously not an indication of the entire life of the route ... but I did find it interesting that I never once saw more than 30 people on the plan when I flew them and it was during the Christmas rush. It must be doing well enough to still be around. Either way, I'd rather take WN than SX anyday.
safetyDemo
Please direct your attention to the flight attendants in the cabin...
RiddlePilot215 From United States, joined Oct 2003, 300 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1678 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 2): The numbers I am going to give are revenue per passenger nautical mile. I believe RASM would also take into account load factors, therefore would be even lower because none of these routes are flying 100% day in day out.
Quoting B757capt (Reply 1):
Now we just need to see the operational costs........
Something tells me the revenue on CMH-MCI isn't even covering the fuel costs, let alone all the other costs involved in running an airline.
Then again, you're not taking into account load factor which plays HUGE on both of those numbers. Obviously, the more people that fly on your plane, the lower your costs are going to be because there is a greater assimilation of potential revenue costs
God is good, all the time. All the time, God is good.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1562 times:
Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 16):
Then again, you're not taking into account load factor which plays HUGE on both of those numbers. Obviously, the more people that fly on your plane, the lower your costs are going to be because there is a greater assimilation of potential revenue costs Smile
I don't care if they're averaging 120% on MCI-CMH... those revenues aren't going to cut it.
Luv2fly From United States, joined May 2003, 11216 posts, RR: 56 Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1425 times:
Quoting RiddlePilot215 (Reply 16): Then again, you're not taking into account load factor which plays HUGE on both of those numbers. Obviously, the more people that fly on your plane, the lower your costs are going to be because there is a greater assimilation of potential revenue costs
Maybe and that is IF they buy anything.
Here is a novel idea charge what you need to cover costs to begin with.
Luv2fly From United States, joined May 2003, 11216 posts, RR: 56 Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1384 times:
Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 20): Also, one should remember that many check multiple bags and purchase priority boarding. This equates to an additional $20 per person each way.
I thought they only sell so many priority boarding so its not like the whole plane is going to shell out the money for it, nor can they.
MOBflyer From United States, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1319 times:
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 21):
I thought they only sell so many priority boarding so its not like the whole plane is going to shell out the money for it, nor can they.
Forgot about the self-imposed cap on revenue there. Anywho.... I am a Skybus fan and am unashamed of it. Sorry.
AirWillie6475 From United States, joined Jan 2005, 2447 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1041 times:
I'd be cautious in treating Skybus as other airlines financially, they're an ultra low cost airline. These numbers may be ok since they don't cost as much to operate, who knows. I guess will find out sooner or later.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1015 times:
Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 24): I'd be cautious in treating Skybus as other airlines financially, they're an ultra low cost airline. These numbers may be ok since they don't cost as much to operate, who knows. I guess will find out sooner or later.
Fuel was still over $90/bbl for Q4 whether you're an ULCC, or NetJets.
Nopeotone From United States, joined Jan 2006, 158 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 984 times:
Anyone know how the GYY bookings are doing? I'd be curious to know, the flights are still pretty inexpensive on the website, but I know that isn't a good comparison to bookings.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 18406 posts, RR: 60 Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 957 times:
Sorry, but doesn't the column in the table called "revenue" for the flight account for everything, not just ticket price? Or does SkyBus have a huge line on their financials that accounts for BOB, shopping, luggage fees, etc.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
SANFan From United States, joined Aug 2006, 2464 posts, RR: 11 Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 939 times:
What figures are we using for a/c capacity? Do we not have a mix of VX-configured a/c early on, with the newer, later deliveries configured in the SX-Squash seating with higher passenger capacity?
bb
Now available for employment in airline scheduling and planning!
MOBflyer From United States, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 5 Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 924 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27): Sorry, but doesn't the column in the table called "revenue" for the flight account for everything, not just ticket price? Or does SkyBus have a huge line on their financials that accounts for BOB, shopping, luggage fees, etc
I should have been more specific - this is reported ticket revenue only.
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