That makes them an easy acquisition target. WN may be interested in acquiring them so they can expand in DEN. They could keep the A318/A319/A320s until they get more 73Gs.
I don't think UA will try to acquire them because they would like to merge with either DL or CO. But B6 or US may be interested because of common fleet types. I don't know about US since their labor relations aren't good right now.
BP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7675 times:
F9 has some Airbus aircraft that US could use to add frequencies or for the soon to be announced SJC-PHL/CLT service and in speeding up the retirements of the 737 fleet. The Denver gates could be sold to the vultures at Southwest Airlines.
"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
4everRC From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 326 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7591 times:
Quoting Mariner (Reply 5): Neither the topic - nor your OP - say why you are painting this scenario.
I agree with Mariner - can you explain why you are of the opinion that F9 is going to fail? If one bad quarter is an indication that an airline will go belly up, there would be no one flying in the USA.
Tripleboom From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 278 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7567 times:
Quoting Mariner (Reply 5): Neither the topic - nor your OP - say why you are painting this scenario. This is now the fourth thread discussing this matter in about three weeks.
Kind of gets tiresome hearing the gloom and doom all of the time. It's been pointed out before that FRNT didn't go soaring when it recorded fantastic Q2 profit despite huge L4 start up and fuel related expenses. Yet when the typically industry-wide down Q3 comes rolling in everyone forgets the previous quarter and the sell-off begins closely accompanied by merger, buyout and bankruptcy talk.
Frankly, I am tired of it and can hardly wait for 6 months down the road when F9 is profitable again, Lynx is hailed as a success, and the media and a.net posters alike finally join hands and sing the praises of Frontier and all the hard work put in by its employees to make it the success it has become.
Whoops.. Sorry about that. I dozed off. And I had the most fantastic dream!
FlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7512 times:
Being a former employee of F9, and still staying in touch on the company...I seriously doubt
Frontier is going away anytime soon. Denver has strong ties & a good public relationship with
F9, and it more than likely that Denver will stand behind F9 in any situation.
Any rumors of Frontier's early demise is greatly exaggerated. Just someone trying to start
false rumors to stir up more buy-out & mergers scenarios.
Nope, Frontier is here to stay, and will probably outlast others, much older carriers.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 27645 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7489 times:
While I dont see how Frontier could 'fail' in 2008 unless we experience somesort of calamity, the impression which I also share to a degree is that F9 is a weaker industry player and remains quite exposed events which might effect it negatively -- mergers, nasty DEN battles, US economic picture, fuel cost etc..
F9's management surely is quite aware of such and Mr. Menke seems to have not wasted any time trying to make changes to better the position the company for the future in his view.
As much as some F9 diehards might not want to hear this however - I do see the airline very much as an eventual takeover candidate.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Richierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4452 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7311 times:
Quoting Mariner (Reply 9): So - using the logic of some a.netters - will United make it through 2008?
With all of the doom-and-gloom and merger-mania, the real question is 'Will any US airline make it through 2008 (in their current state or form)?' The answer is, of course, yes, at least most of them. Figuring out which ones won't is the trick!
PavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7231 times:
I fear Frontier is worth more dead than alive.
Their cash holding is greater than their market cap and the value of their fleet is quite a bit greater than their debt. Add to that a freequent flier program worth a few million and you have the perfect recipe for a private-equity fund to come in and liquidate.
DIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6997 times:
I have not kept up with all the latest F9 discussions...so I add this as a simple statement...
I was up at DIA a few days in a row last week and saw F9 Airbuses just sitting around the (CO) hanger. I didn't think much of it until I noticed these same planes were there everyday I was there...during the daytime. I couldn't help but think it is never agood sign when an airline is having a portion of their fleet parked.
Again, I'm just coming into the discussions here...just put me in the "know." Is the parking of these a/c for a current minor restructure...or are they already getting some a/c ready to leave the fleet. If none of the above, then what's going on?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
Caspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6478 times:
Quoting DIA (Reply 18): I was up at DIA a few days in a row last week and saw F9 Airbuses just sitting around the (CO) hanger. I didn't think much of it until I noticed these same planes were there everyday I was there...during the daytime. I couldn't help but think it is never agood sign when an airline is having a portion of their fleet parked.
Airplanes parked at a hangar means nothing! Every time I drive to work at ORD no matter what time of day or night there are ALWAYS at least 3-4 747's and usually a couple of 777's parked outside the UA hangars. We know that UA is cutting their domestic ops, but these are international birds!
Mke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2523 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5538 times:
Will F9 Make It Through 2008? No, YX will buy them out, use F9's Airbus to replace their MD-80s, open up DEN as their third hub/focus city, and then some times down the road NW will buy out YX and take the 717s and Airbus alltogether.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
Lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 14554 posts, RR: 100
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5389 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
So - using the logic of some a.netters - will United make it through 2008?
Its scary the results we're seeing. It look like we are in 'the "R" word.'
Frontier has a new challenge.
Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 23): and then some times down the road NW will buy out YX and take the 717s and Airbus alltogether.
You have it backwards! YX will buy out NW!
What would a.net be without threads like this? Let's see... Good RPM's... Maybe a bit too much of an increase in capacity. Oops. Not a bad mistake in my opinion. Yes, high priced oil is killing the airlines. But I think F9 will adapt. A319's for A320's is a good start.
Lawn set to brown: dang drought.
: Interesting on how no one has discussed the possibility of UA purchasing F9
: Be carefull what you wish for. F9 going private would put them under even more pressure to perform. Private funds demand results in a very short time
: I'm not wishing for it. But if someone presents me with a doomsday liquidation scenario, I will always point out that Frontier has many options. As t
: This is where a basketball type trade could be entertaining. Would this be a trade that helps a couple of teams? Have WN and another municipality come
: I hope not, Frontier is one of the few interesting airlines to spot at the airports with their cool tail pictures - A lot more interesting to look at
: The standard the the US government uses for evalutating mergers (competition decreases at city pairs) would prohibit this from occuring. Frontier is
: I think F9 is ripe for a buyout. But the form of the buyout is still a mystery to me. The theory i tend to like the best is the Southwest buyout. They
: Agreed. There is so much M&A talk flying around right now I think 2008 will be a year of major rearranging in the industry. One mega-deal in the US a
: I'm not wishing for it either. It doesn't take a financial genius to take a glance at their balance sheet contra their market cap and salivate. Buyin
: First of all, your mockery of my statement is out of line. I was asking for guidance...and loosely asking what it could mean. Mariner and Tripleboom
: As I recall, I haven't seen anything from F9 putting the carrier on the auction block nor have I seen anyone going shopping for them as a whole or in
: Who buys? The entire domestic industry is putting the brakes on growth so the aircraft aren't attractive right now. The hub and gates in DEN? Yeah, t
: F('s business model is dependent on DEN. It allows them to have fairly short trip times to every part of the nation, and is ideally located. F9's Lat
: Clearly, you mean United or Frontier. Mike Boyd said from the git-go that Southwest put a target on Frontier's back. It hasn't worked so far, but if
: Yep. Why did Southwest stop Frontier from getting the two gates on C and take them for themselves? If Mr. Kelly intends to acquire Frontier, he'd get
: Last night I had to book a trip to Denver. I could have flown NW, F9, or UA direct for the same $$$. I went ahead and chose F9 because of this thread.
: But that still doesn't answer the question. As of mid-October 2007, Frontier's market cap was still chump change, and the pss was in the 4's. As of m
: If WN is building up chances are F9 will start losing part of their customer base anyway. If their financial situation doesn't improve and they get b
: That may be the worst (airline) idea I think I have ever heard. If you are so determined that Frontier must cut and run, for whatever reason, from it
: Sticking it out in Denver with UA's massive hub and WN's buildup and slowly going down with the ship because of pride/ego is the worst idea I've ever
: Absolutly will not happen. UA has shown through previous actions, they are expanding to benefit themselves, not to slice the throat of F9. If it were
: It it were to do with pride/ego, then I would agree with you. But it isn't about pride/ego. mariner
: If it isn't about pride or ego then it is about not being able to see the writing on the wall. The level of service at DEN isn't sustainable. At leas
: That is your interpretation. It surely isn't mine. I have - more than somewhat to my own surprise - maintained my strong interest in Frontier since m
: That would be like me with NW if they merge with DL. If F9 were to have to make the tough decision of moving what would be your top 3 relocation airp
: I'm pretty confident at this point in time it is do or die in DEN. The intangible assets alone would cost tens of millions and take years to duplicat
: Shareholders will likely have other ideas.
: I did read that United is planning on shrinking their domestic flying by 3.5% to 4.5% across the system, and almost 5.0% at ORD. Even if UA is "only"
: Even if NW eventually closes the MEM hub by way of merger or otherwise, I don't think it'd be a great move for F9. MEM is a pretty small market which
: Hahaha. A topic for a whole different thread. (Pardon the pun.) State and local politicians and government types in Colorado are beginning to appear
: They are not moving their hub to Memphis. Good grief. F9 has spent a decade building a corp of frequent travelers all over the western US. Cutting an
: However it is heavily carved up. DEN has probably the worst ratio of total pax served to local population. They handle 20 pax per capita which is hor
: There is also a corp of business and frequent travelers that would rather drive 1,000 miles via auto than take WN. I detest that airline, and will do
: This is where ego plagues the industry. Its this mentality that its better to go under than to make the difficult decision of cutting back or moving.
: Maybe if F9 acquired 40 or 50 more RJ's, then it would make more sense from a load factor standpoint. I mean NW's operations there are dominated by R
: MEM was kind of an example because I can't think of any other airports off the top of my head that would have the space available and a bit of geograp
: Your "solution" relies on Memphis being vacated by NW, which is predicated that they are bought by DL or someone else, and close their hub. That's a
: It's your theory, you're doing the running. I do not believe they should leave DEN, and I've given you a lot of clues as to why. There are many more
: Yup. Not only that but if F9 moved to Memphis or anywhere else, what happens when WN moves there a few months or year later? I hear Billings or Roche
: The thing that matters is profit and that is what drives what the stock market thinks. Airlines come and go. I'd rather F9 not be the one to go. I ca
: Yes. When have I argued otherwise? mariner
: F9 is going to survive. Yes they will make it through 2008. Any other questions?
: UA and F9 should bury the hatchet. DEN was a very profitable asset for UA, now its become a huge liability. I think we can all agree here that UA woul
: Sean Menke was asked today if Southwest was still having a negative impact on his airline. This is what he said - "There was a lot of fanfare in the m