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Hop In On BA In USA Domestic Flight?  
User currently offlineScotland1979 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 548 posts, RR: 12
Posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5871 times:
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Just wonder if I can do that or can't do that?
British Airways from LHR via in Detroit DTW to Houston. Is it possible that I can hop in on BA from Detroit to Houston? And return Detroit on BA from Houston? Instead of hop in on US airline, can I do that on BA? Is there any policy?

Thank you!
Frank


Jesus said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" - John 14:6
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5871 times:

No, you can't buy a ticket for that leg. It's called third rights, which htey don't have.


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineScotland1979 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 548 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5831 times:
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Oh Darn.. hope one day it changes policy  scratchchin 


Jesus said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" - John 14:6
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5802 times:

You woul have to change customs / immigration rules as well.

Has been discussed before, but cabotage roights are very rare in tnbhis world.

Besides, the inbound flight clears customs/immigration in DTW, theoretically it would be OK for domestic passengers.

The outbound IAH-DTW-LHR is customs / immigration cleared in Houston and passengers must stay on board in DTW.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5793 times:

That is between the United States government and the EU. Nothing BA can do.


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineRampGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5713 times:

Why does this flight even operate like this in the first place. There doesn't need to be a stop on a flight between Heathrow and Houston. Lord knows, that there always has been non-stop from Gatwick to Houston and always will be.

User currently offlineLHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5682 times:



Quoting RampGuy (Reply 5):
Why does this flight even operate like this in the first place. There doesn't need to be a stop on a flight between Heathrow and Houston. Lord knows, that there always has been non-stop from Gatwick to Houston and always will be.

It's called Bermuda 2. And soon, it will be nonstop once OpenSkies comes into play.



Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5662 times:



Quoting LHR27C (Reply 6):
It's called Bermuda 2. And soon, it will be nonstop once OpenSkies comes into play.

As well as BA leaving DTW after decades of service here.  Angry


User currently offlineScotland1979 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 548 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5634 times:
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Are you saying that there will be no longer for BA in DTW soon?  Confused


Jesus said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" - John 14:6
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17149 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5619 times:



Quoting Scotland1979 (Reply 8):
Are you saying that there will be no longer for BA in DTW soon?

Yepp, think he means that!!!



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5619 times:



Quoting Scotland1979 (Reply 8):
Are you saying that there will be no longer for BA in DTW soon?  

Come March 28 that will be the (unfortunate) truth.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5591 times:



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 10):
Come March 28 that will be the (unfortunate) truth.

NW To Add, BA To Drop DTW-LHR (by Stretch 8 Dec 10 2007 in Civil Aviation)

BA Withdraws From HRE And DTW! (by Lovinitflyboy Sep 19 2007 in Civil Aviation)

BA In DTW? (by Dtwclipper Sep 17 2007 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5501 times:

Although DTW will soon be off the BA network, returning to the original questions "Can I hop on BA on US domestic flight" I recall that it was part of the Open Skies agreement that EU airlines would be granted cabotage rights in the USA at a future date and that if the US government does not relent, the agreement will revert back to Bermuda 2 or before that.


MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5471 times:



Quoting Scotland1979 (Thread starter):

British Airways from LHR via in Detroit DTW to Houston. Is it possible that I can hop in on BA from Detroit to Houston?

No

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
It's called third rights

Actually, that would be the 8th Freedom, also known as Cabotage.

Quoting RampGuy (Reply 5):
Why does this flight even operate like this in the first place. There doesn't need to be a stop on a flight between Heathrow and Houston.

It operates so oil executives can connect at Heathrow.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5177 times:



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
No, you can't buy a ticket for that leg. It's called third rights, which htey don't have.

It is actually third freedom, the right for an airline to fly from their home country to another country and to carry passengers.

For IAH-LHR, DTW would be only a technical stop with traffic rights on the DTW-LHR sector (Second Freedom and Third Freedom).

Quoting Scotland1979 (Thread starter):
Instead of hop in on US airline, can I do that on BA?

No. But...

Quoting Scotland1979 (Thread starter):
Is there any policy?

There is a policy that would allow you to fly DTW-IAH... If you were to fly LHR-IAH with a stopover in DTW, you could fly the DTW-IAH sector on its own. Big grin


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 14):
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 1):
No, you can't buy a ticket for that leg. It's called third rights, which htey don't have.

It is actually third freedom, the right for an airline to fly from their home country to another country and to carry passengers.

The question involved the domestic DTW-IAH sector which for BA is not 3rd freedom but cabotage. UK-US for BA is 3rd freedom (and US-UK for BA is 4th freedom) regardless whether the flight is nonstop or not. But domestic sectors in a country other than the home country of the airline are referred to as cabotage, also known as 8th freedom, or 9th freedom in the case of stand-alone cabotage where a carrier is permitted to operate domestic service in another country where the flights do not originate/terminate in the carrier's home country. Example of the latter is Australia and New Zealand where carriers of each country have unlimited domestic rights in the other country, e.g. QF operates domestic service in New Zealand and NZ could (if they chose to) operate domestic service in Australia.

[Edited 2008-01-23 17:54:10]

User currently offlineCaspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5117 times:



Quoting BCAL (Reply 12):
I recall that it was part of the Open Skies agreement that EU airlines would be granted cabotage rights in the USA at a future date and that if the US government does not relent, the agreement will revert back to Bermuda 2 or before that.

I sincerely hope that this type of cabotage never comes to fruition. It's the US....flights within the US should be run by US airlines. Or are we going to see Southwest flying intra-EU if this happens?



Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7815 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5098 times:



Quoting Scotland1979 (Reply 2):
Oh Darn.. hope one day it changes policy

Probably not soon. Besides BA is leaving DTW. IAH was the only thing keeping that flight going. Now that BA will be able to fly LHR-IAH nonstop, who needs DTW?

Quoting RampGuy (Reply 5):
Why does this flight even operate like this in the first place. There doesn't need to be a stop on a flight between Heathrow and Houston. Lord knows, that there always has been non-stop from Gatwick to Houston and always will be.

They added IAH to the flight to try and salvage the LHR-DTW segment. LHR-IAH is a very high premium market. BA will cease operateing LGW-IAH and replace it with LHR-IAH this March. Still 2x daily. CO will fly IAH-LGW once daily and IAH-LHR 2x daily. So once open skies comes in, no more DTW for BA and all IAH and DFW flights will be moved to LHR. BA decided against moving ATL flights to LHR. I wonder why they even fly to ATL if they are just going to LGW after open skies.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

Hopefully, 744s will take over the IAHLHR.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineScotland1979 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 548 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4965 times:
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Who needs DTW? Of course I need that flight from DTW to LHR because DTW-LHR is much cheaper than YYZ-LHR.
I played with the site "cheapoair" and I try round trip fare (I try for Feb 24 to LHR and back home on Mar 2 and I find price shown DTW-LHR-DTW costs $291 US compare to YYZ-LHR-YYZ costs over $430 US) I would go for DTW for cheaper fare.
So I couldn't do DTW-IAD without LHR

But does DTW need BA? SW Ontario may chose DTW if they knew the price difference



Jesus said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" - John 14:6
User currently offlinePDXBJV From Turkey, joined Apr 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4916 times:

What about when TWA and PanAm operated flights intra europe?? I'm still a bit confused about that. And what about United having 727's based in Europe. I'm sorry if this sounds like a stupid no brainer :P But I wasn't around, or, really aware of the going ons in Europe at that time :P


TK787 PDX-BJV direct????
User currently offlineLH417AF025 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4894 times:

can ID airline standbys fly DTW IAH?

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9755 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4828 times:



Quoting PDXBJV (Reply 20):
What about when TWA and PanAm operated flights intra europe

Europe is not a country. Flying from Germany to the UK is an international route. Both PA and TW had full traffic rights on a large number of possible intra Europe connection. More, the USA had the sovereignty over a sector in West Berlin until 1989 and especially PanAm was basically a German airline in the post war times, with the IGS Internal German System.

These traffic rights, as well as the beyond rights from Japan to SE Asia are a result of WW2

Not comparable with cabotage rights, which are granted very very rarely. Some countries allow cabotage for International passengers in a stop-over, not sure but the QF flight JFK-LAX could be one of these exceptions. But the, a passenger is allowed to stop over on LAX only when he continues later to Australia on the same airline.,



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinePDXBJV From Turkey, joined Apr 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4640 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Europe is not a country. Flying from Germany to the UK is an international route. Both PA and TW had full traffic rights on a large number of possible intra Europe connection.

Do we not have these rights any more??



TK787 PDX-BJV direct????
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4607 times:



Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 16):
I sincerely hope that this type of cabotage never comes to fruition. It's the US....flights within the US should be run by US airlines. Or are we going to see Southwest flying intra-EU if this happens?

Why should flights within the US be run by US airlines? We are a capitalist country, last I checked, not a Communist one.

The EU is not a country. They're not the same thing.

NS


25 PanHAM : AFAIK the US still does. The Berlin righrs of course not, as Germany regained full sovereignty over Berlin and the 5 lands on 1990. That makes FRA/BR
26 Nighthawk : Were these not just feeder services for the LHR US services - ie all passengers onboard these 727 flights would be connecting onwards to the states,
27 N1120A : You wouldn't even need to fly in on the LHR-DTW flight. You could fly in from any point outside the US into DTW and connect onto that flight. Yes. AF
28 Scotland1979 : Sound like a good idea if I hop in on NW Airlink from London YXU and hop in on BA for IAH. Can I do that? Since London is outside of USA
29 United_Fan : Same idea as QF LAX-JFK . You can only fly that if you originated in Australia/NZ. JL used to fly LAS-LAX-NRT , you could only take the domestic part
30 PanHAM : No, they had full local traffic rights on all these flights. PA and TW never served SXF btw, that was the airport in East Germany. It was THF first a
31 N1120A : Theoretically, you could originate anywhere outside the US and connect to that flight. You should be able to do that if you book them on the same iti
32 Post contains images ElmoTheHobo : see below: I didn't say that third freedom allowed for the transport of passengers between Detroit and Houston, I said that to fly between Houston an
33 Viscount724 : Not all the US carriers that based aircraft in Europe to operate various sectors had 5th freedom rights on all sectors. UA for example operated GVA-C
34 Starlionblue : That's like saying "Don't buy foreign cars, you are putting Americans out of work". Your statement doesn't make economic sense. If you look at isolat
35 BosWashSprStar : Though this comment comes across as tragically xenophobic, it's not a completely invalid point--there could be a national security concern if, say, a
36 Viscount724 : As far as I know US carriers only have 5th freedom rights within the EU after open skies arrives. Your comment implies that Southwest (or any other U
37 Aisak : Actually you can't. Qantas is using their granted 3rd/4th freedom rights to do LAX-JFK. The right to take a passenger from Australia (extended to NZ)
38 MAH4546 : Better check again. Puerto Rico is not a country. It is a U.S. territory.
39 Post contains images Aisak : My bad...   . I was going to say "51th state" but then changed to country.... So... Puerto Rico is an US territory. Does Open skies includes Puerto
40 MAH4546 : Yes, it does. It includes all 50 states and all U.S. territories - Puerto Rico, Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, etc.
41 Post contains links Aisak : Yes. Found it here ‘territory’ means, for the United States, the land areas (mainland and islands), internal waters and territorial sea under its
42 N1120A : And in fact, it is a commonwealth, which is even more integrated.
43 Basrabob : The reason why foreign airlines cannot fly internally within the US is down to one simple term - protectionism......look at the fun & games that Richa
44 MAH4546 : Domestic air-fare in the U.S. is cheap. Ridiculously, ridiculously cheap. Why don't you check your facts before going on such a ridiculous, fact-less
45 Par13del : Thank God those politicians in your country did not think like you did, imagine how Europe would be: No Airbus, all American a/c Airports all over th
46 Basrabob : the US carriers have almost been hysterical in getting into LHR . Now they are there ...they can show the world how good they are. Shouldn't take long
47 MAH4546 : Really? So AF's new LAX-LHR route and BA's new JFK-CDG/BRU routes are "nothing"?
48 Basrabob : they operate under EU route auth ........are they able to operate intra US routes.......never .
49 Post contains images Baguy : So this means that non EU countries (Switzerland etc.) could not be operated to/from to an EU country by a US airline? (Or have I just got the wrong e
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