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New 737 Without Winglets?  
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12468 posts, RR: 37
Posted (6 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 5476 times:

Just having a quick look at the terrific new site, Seattle Deliveries (http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/index.htm)

and came across this photo of a new Skymark 737-800

http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/a/0108/ja737p_220108bfisl1.jpg

which, as you'll see from the photo, doesn't have winglets; I thought all new 737s were now being delivered with winglets, or will this aircraft have its winglets fitted somewhere else?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTavong From Colombia, joined Jul 2001, 836 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 5466 times:

AFAIK excepting the 737-900ER the Winglets are still being offered has an option for most 737NG. In the -900ER is the standard plane.

Gus
SKBO



Colombian coffee, the best...take a cup and you will see how delicious it is.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 5400 times:



Quoting Tavong (Reply 1):
AFAIK excepting the 737-900ER the Winglets are still being offered has an option for most 737NG. In the -900ER is the standard plane.

Correct, it's an option. As fuel prices climb more and more operators choose to exercise that option but if you don't want winglets Boeing will give it to you without winglets.

Tom.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12250 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 5381 times:
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Isn't there a point (short routes) where winglets serve no purpose?


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User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9638 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

Almost all of the 737s coming out of the factory have winglets. They are installed on the wing before the wing is even put on the airplane. Right now the only plane in the factory I know of is a Continental 737-800 that doesn't have winglets. Probably about 1 in 10-15 don't have winglets. Most notably, Airtran has not equipped its 737s with winglets.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 41
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 5112 times:



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 3):
Isn't there a point (short routes) where winglets serve no purpose?

Yes, if you don't fly high enough for long enough there's no point in having winglets in fact they will increase fuel consumption.
Having said that most 73's will qualify I guess otherwise airlines would not pay about 500.000 per set  Wink



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User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 5067 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
Most notably, Airtran has not equipped its 737s with winglets


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As you can see, FL has addeed many sets of winglets to their birds.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3302 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 4828 times:



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
As you can see, FL has addeed many sets of winglets to their birds.

...After they leave the factory.



"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3947 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 4758 times:

China Southern don't use them too. Copa don't have them fitted at the factory either, along with AirTran and Continental's -800s. Air China only use them on their own 737s, not their leased ones.

R


User currently offlineLN-MOW From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1908 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 4544 times:

There are still quite a few aftermarket kits out there .. The Skymark a/c may be fitted with one of these at another location, like CO's -800.

The winglets are now standard option on all models except the -600. The -900(Standard) is no longer offered, according to a Boeing executive I spoke to last week.

.



- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 4313 times:

Its a balance between weight of the Winglets & cruise time.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1644 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 4304 times:



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 3):
Isn't there a point (short routes) where winglets serve no purpose?

When the Taiwan "Airforce 1" was equipped with winglets, it was pointed out in the press here that for flight segments shorter than two hours, winglets are of no benefit.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2179 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 4295 times:

The winglets are all about reducing the induced drag, so if the accountants dont see them as benefical then they'll not put them on. Can someone explain why on the underside of that fuselage that grey sort of stripe right on the bottom, that thins out as you go further aft? Have seen a similar thing on UA 777s etc and have always wondered why?

User currently offlineStylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2975 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 4263 times:

most of the new TK planes have been delivered without winglets

User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2954 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

FYI, Skymark Airlines' 738s do not have winglets on its entire fleet.
They fly on 1.5 hour sectors within Japan.
That said NH & JL both have winglets on their 737NGs.


User currently offlineCFMitch56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3964 times:



Quoting Brenintw (Reply 11):
for flight segments shorter than two hours, winglets are of no benefit.

Shouldn't that number be lower than that? WN seems to be a pretty big fan of winglets, even on some -300 models. Many of their flights are less than 2 hours long or right around 2 hours. If your suggestion is true, then even if WN derives benefit on the flights >2 hours, the great number of flights 2:15 or 2:30 wouldn't benefit too much.

Is the 2 hour figure really accurate? If so, how satisfied is WN with the winglets on the -300s and are the benefits comparable to the wingletted 73G?


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9638 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3920 times:



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):


As you can see, FL has addeed many sets of winglets to their birds.

Sorry about the confusion. The thread was about airplanes being delivered. I think that Airtran probably has a contract for retrofitting the winglets on the planes, so it would be cheaper to get the winglets done through that contractor than through Boeing. It is weird to see two Continental 737s side by side and only see the winglets on the 739ER.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1790 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3885 times:



Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 13):
most of the new TK planes have been delivered without winglets

yes but TK has the ability to retrofit them thanks to their agreement with aviation partners boeing.. some of the ones that got delivered w/out winglets have been retrofitted later..



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineTCT From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

I think its strange that boeing makes it an option on there 738 aircraft, dont winglets make the aircraft more eco-freindly, and also save fuel for the airline. Being that were having so many problems with global warming, and boeing developing the 787 you would think they've gone on the path of creating more fuel efficient and eco-freindly aircraft, so I do not understand why they dont make it a standard on the rest of the 737 fleet. Afterall winglets do make a big difference for everyone.

User currently offlineCaptainsimon From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Some of the Excel and Globespan 737s have left Boeing without winglets and ferry to Southend UK EGMC where ATC Lashams put them on.
Maybe its cheaper this way, I'm not to sure.

[Edited 2008-01-24 10:33:36]

User currently offlineVatveng From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2507 times:



Quoting TCT (Reply 18):
I think its strange that boeing makes it an option on there 738 aircraft, dont winglets make the aircraft more eco-freindly, and also save fuel for the airline.

Those winglets don't weigh zero, they're added weight the engines have to haul up to cruise altitude, increasing fuel burn. And they only reduce fuel burn at cruise, so if you aren't at cruise long enough for the winglets to save more fuel than they cost during climb, then you've burned more total fuel during the flight. Which is why some airlines that fly mostly short routes have chosen not to get winglets on their new 737.



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User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2261 times:



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 3):
Isn't there a point (short routes) where winglets serve no purpose?

Yes, but you do have airlines where the entire fleet doesn't have winglets (Like AirTran, as previously mentioned.). So a wingletted 737 could be doing routes where the fuel savings aren't there.

The practicality of the winglets over certain distances is why you'll probably never see a winglet retrofit for the 717 and the MD-80 family a/c. Plus, at least in the case of the Mad Dogs, the ROI on them would probably be harder to achieve.


User currently offlineCFMitch56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2176 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 21):
Yes, but you do have airlines where the entire fleet doesn't have winglets (Like AirTran, as previously mentioned.). So a wingletted 737 could be doing routes where the fuel savings aren't there.

I don't think FL uses the wingletted ones just on their longer routes--I took one from SFO-ATL in 2006 and it wasn't fitted with them. I'm not saying you were suggesting that's the case, but it brings up another question: Are there any airlines that have wingletted 737 subfleets only for use on certain longer routes?


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4328 posts, RR: 35
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2124 times:



Quoting Brenintw (Reply 11):
it was pointed out in the press here that for flight segments shorter than two hours, winglets are of no benefit.

This formula isn't written in stone, the costs of fitting winglets was counted against the fuel savings.
So it might as well be the case that when Taiwans 737 was delivered two hours was a turning point where the fuel savings pay back, which made sense as mainly charter airlines who fly their 737s on longer flights were already doing winglets in the early years, while by now with $100 fuel, winglets might be good for all flights like 50 minutes and up, which clarifies that apart from some Chinese carriers now almost every new 737 has them.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
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