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United Applies For LAX-SJD  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6249 times:

Wasting no time following Frontier's announcement it was discontinuing LAX-SJD service effective April 13th ( F9 LAX-SJD Chopped (by LAXintl Jan 14 2008 in Civil Aviation) ),
United has applied for authority to commence service to San Jose del Cabo from LAX effective April 14, 2008 with 7 weekly frequencies using 156 seat TED A320 aircraft.

Due to the short notice of the proposed start up, United has requested the DOT to treat its application under expedited basis.

OST 2008-0023-0001


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25415 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6232 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
United has applied for authority to commence service to San Jose del Cabo from LAX effective April 14, 2008 with 7 weekly frequencies using 156 seat TED A320 aircraft.

I wonder if Delta will challenge it?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

I had no idea it was so far.

NS


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5821 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6222 times:

There is an additional document in the docket.

UA polled the other carriers to see if anyone was opposed.

No carriers were opposed in the poll except Delta, Continental, and Horizon.

Continental and Horizon are not sure yet if they want to apply for the route.

Delta is opposed to it being granted to UA without a carrier proceeding.

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...osition=attachment&contentType=pdf



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25415 posts, RR: 86
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6200 times:
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Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 3):
Delta is opposed to it being granted to UA without a carrier proceeding.

I should have put money on it.  Smile

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

Horizon can forget it as DOT wont designate them in addition to current Alaska authority, Continental can think about it however their previous LA-Mexico/CenAm attempts were all less then stellar, while Delta can certainly shot for the route however it will need to be a daily 738 to at least be competitive with UA's daily A320 proposal. RJ's wont cut it. But with their recent LAX yo-yo like schedule trimming not sure what DL is doing here at the moment.

At the end of the day, as I have said prior United makes the most sense on this route as it has a strong LA base to market the flights from plus offers connectivity to many places.

[Edited 2008-01-24 19:06:47]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25415 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6106 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Delta can certainly shot for the route however it will need to be a daily 738 to at least be competitive with UA's daily A320 proposal.

From Delta's perspective, does it matter?

They may understand that there is fifty-fifty chance they will get the route. If they do, hey, great. They can promise anything in the way of equipment, and - eventually - change it later.

By requesting a carrier proceeding, they can also delay United getting the route. They could drag it out for quite a while.

I don't like it - but Delta has played tricks like that before.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3108 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5900 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
From Delta's perspective, does it matter?

To the casual observer, DL's experiment in LAX has been a failure. The DOT would be crazy to give the route to DL over UA.


User currently offlinePlatinumfoota From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5886 times:

I think its a smart move by United. Makes no sence conectin in SFO to go to SJD from LAX. Still upset UA dropped SAL  hissyfit 


Never forget United 93
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25415 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5790 times:
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Quoting RwSEA (Reply 7):
To the casual observer, DL's experiment in LAX has been a failure. The DOT would be crazy to give the route to DL over UA.

That may be true - and I would guess United wil eventually get it. But Delta has played delaying tactics before.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5687 times:

I hope UA gets it. But DL is not eager to do UA any favors, so they might apply for it, not sure if they want to launch it.

User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5681 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
But Delta has played delaying tactics before.

In which case you would think the DOT would see through this and either say to DL, go for it yourself or back off!


User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5549 times:

DL has had LAX-PVR has been running pretty consistent with a 738 so perhaps SJD is not so impossible. Plus there is still the wave of hawaai expansion coming so DL has not given up on LAX.

Some of the routes did not make it but then did everyone expect all the routes to work.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5360 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 12):
it but then did everyone expect all the routes to work

Delta obviously did. Would not have wasted time, and more importantly $$ launching stuff it knew was going to fail.

Yes suppose DL can drag this process out, however would be an extreme shame for the US and the consumer if DL was awarded the route based on daily frequencies and then opts to run it at only a few weekly flights as it has done on other awards. United has far greater credibility and dedication in my eyes to the LA market.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25415 posts, RR: 86
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5330 times:
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Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 11):
In which case you would think the DOT would see through this and either say to DL, go for it yourself or back off!

That has happened before - or rather, Delta pulled the plug on their own application when another airline objected to what Delta was trying to do.

But I can think of at least two - maybe three - cases (for Mexican routes) when Delta applied but was not chosen and they then launched appeals against the DOT's decision. This particular route is an old wound for Delta.

To some extent, the DOT's hands are tied. They must appear impartial and if an airline objects, they have to at least consider the objection.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
if DL was awarded the route based on daily frequencies and then opts to run it at only a few weekly flights as it has done on other awards.

I agree. But as you note, there are other examples of it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5316 times:

I think UA is a good choice. DL wouldn't be bad either, CO wouldn't be such a great option.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5107 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
I think UA is a good choice. DL wouldn't be bad either, CO wouldn't be such a great option

CO wouldn't be a good option because knowing CO they'll put a damn RJ on this route. UA will be a A320, DL could be mainline as well.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5083 times:



Quoting Juventus (Reply 16):
UA will be a A320, DL could be mainline as well.

Exactly. UA would put an A320 or 737 on it. DL might put an MD80 or 737 on it, or might do XJ. CO would do XJ without a doubt.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5038 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
Exactly. UA would put an A320 or 737 on it. DL might put an MD80 or 737 on it, or might do XJ. CO would do XJ without a doubt.

Regional airlines need to hold authority independent of mainline. Hence, if DL gets the route, they can apply with a 738, but they can't just later decide to downgrade it to an ERJ on XJET. They would need to give-up the authority, and XJET would need to apply. Then, though, any other airline can also apply, including UA.

About two years ago Delta applied with DOT to switch LAX-GDL from mainline to a regional operator. Of course, other airlines objected, saying it would require a carrier selection process and they simply couldn't switch. Delta backed off from their plan, realizing a switch would mean losing LAX-GDL since there is no way a regional would be selected over a mainline carrier.

Long-story short: If Delta gets LAX-SJD, they can't downgrade it to a regional operator.



a.
User currently offlineOcracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4890 times:

When F9 won the route, who was the backup airline? If F9 drops the route, wouldn't the backup winner automatically be offered the route?

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4815 times:

No too much time has passed since the original competition and award that warrants a new proceeding.

The back up carrier really is only good if awarded carrier fails to start service in the required time frame, or drops out shortly after. Beyond a few years things materially change which can effect how the department views one carriers proposal over another even with the same players in the game.

DOTs long time goal has been to provide consumer choice and help foster competition. (which in many ways aided Frontiers in the original competition as the department in recent years has liked LCC's somewhat over the legacies.)



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAnetter123 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

Its about time!...lol.

The aircraft for the soon to be discontinued SAL route might be used on this one unless they plan to use TED or UAX if DOT approves them.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4688 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
would mean losing LAX-GDL since there is no way a regional would be selected over a mainline carrier.

CO had/has many LAX-Mexico flights on regional jets, despite the fact there is no way the governments would choose them over mainline flights from other carriers...  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFlywithken From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4688 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Horizon can forget it as DOT wont designate them in addition to current Alaska authority

Are you sure about this? From Horizons standpoint, they had to do all the DOT paperwork for the recently awarded LTO route as if they were a new carrier. There was no breaks for them even though Alaska serves LTO already.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4670 times:

LTO was not a competitive route in which many carriers want to fly there and there were vacant US allocations available.

SJD on the other hand it a competitive market with no open allocations for US carriers besides the designation F9 is vacating. During the last round no less then 5 airlines (F9, CO, HP/US, DL. UA) applied for that single designation.

DOT wont 'waste' a limited designation on Horizon whom is Alaska's proxy (and flies to LAX-SJD already) and not to mention Horizon only having prop/RJ service which is a non starter going up against larger capacity mainline jet proposals.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 777fan : Ha! That's going to dirty the merger dance floor. If DL were actually committed to merging with UA (potentially), why would they haggle over a new ro
26 Juventus : You hit it right in the nail LAXInt'l. LAX-SJD should be given to whoever is willing to put an Airbus or Boeing on the route. If UA wants it now, the
27 LAXintl : No surprise however Delta has officially filed its objection to United's request route request and has demanded the DOT run a selection proceeding for
28 Travelin man : I really hope UA gets it. They've been a far larger and more consistent player at LAX. The route does not need to go to an airline that will pull it
29 LAXintl : DOT on Friday, decided to move ahead and institute an expedited carrier proceeding for the vacated Frontier designation per the follow time line. Appl
30 Modesto2 : Agreed. UA certainly has more connections, but this route for DL would complement its LAX-PVR and LAX-CUN.
31 FlyASAGuy2005 : What you and a lot of people fail to see was the game Delta had to pay in LAX just to keep their gates. A lot of their flights were run just to keep
32 Post contains links LAXintl : Which now in hindsight might have been a waste of money and maybe should have acquiesced to LAWA's demands to begin with and be sitting with more mon
33 Juventus : So which airlines will apply for this route before Feb. 19th??? UA, DL, maybe CO or NW??? I don't think US wants anything to do with LAX-international
34 LAXintl : United already applied offering daily TED A320, while Delta has indicated it would apply. CO and Horizon were the only other two carriers polled that
35 Super80DFW : So UA wants to fly it with 1x Ted. If Delta was granted the route, they would take an EMB-145. I bet UA gets it due to UA larger presence at LAX.
36 LAXintl : United has filed supplemental information related to application. The airlines now proposes to operate 2x daily (1x off peak season) utilizing 156-sea
37 DLPMMM : I believe that Virgin America has said they would also apply.
38 Post contains links DLPMMM : Here's the link: http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/080219/136651.html
39 Post contains links LAXintl : Virgin America Applies For LAX-SJD (by LAXintl Feb 19 2008 in Civil Aviation)
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