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Continued Absence Of New Service To MSY  
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 4550 times:

This is partly a rant due to AC's (in my opinion) horrid decision to pick AUS and RIC over MSY. But it has been brewing for a long time.

I mean really, what else does the New Orleans Aviation Board have to do to try to get new airlines and/or routes into this airport? Free landing fees for a year for new routes (or even for a second airline serving an under served route) isn't good enough? Or a .75 per seat credit which can be used for terminal use charges for 12 months for airlines reaching 85% of their former pre-K capacity here? Still not good enough?

You go talk to anyone at the Aviation Board (and the tourism bureau) and they will tell you the same thing over and over again: Daily nonstops to Boston and San Francisco are a must. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Those are key target markets from a tourism and business standpoint from New Orleans. And the return of scheduled international service, whether it be to SAP, YYZ, or both, is equally important. But it just seems like as time moves on, the airlines, in their almighty wisdom, continue to turn a blind eye.

On the whole, even though tourism to the city has rebounded nicely, along with the convention business, airline service has remained fairly stagnant. Sure, there are usually a handful of flights added every other month, but those are generally to already well served hubs, and some of those flights are seasonal in nature. Demand is a not a problem for flights to MSY. It really has not been ever since Katrina. The airport has built in demand, low landing fees, plentiful open gates, and now this new incentive program in place to lure much needed new service. But where are the results?

Here's a rundown of airline/flight ops at MSY as of February. Pre-Katrina numbers are listed in parentheses):

US: 13 (16)
NW: 6 (8)
WN: 36 (56)
FL: 5 (5)
AA: 19 (19)
UA: 11 (13)
DL: 17 (22)
CO: 17 (18)
XE: 10 (0)
B6: 3 (3)
AC:1 (0)
TA: 1 (0)
F9 1 (0)
YX: 2 (0)
HP: 2 (0) * US has not brought back PHX/LAS service

As you can see by the numbers, WN is still way behind. Others are back to normal capacity, or nearly normal, but a few key nonstop routes...namely SFO and a daily BOS...are still missing. And of course the carriers which have yet to return aren't helping out the cause at all.

Airlines really need to step up to the plate and start taking an interest in this market. New Orleans' recovery in the tourism field is tied hand in hand with its air service. And right now, that recovery is pretty much stagnant. But I'm not blaming the city or the state or the aviation board this time. They are doing all they can from a marketing/promoting standpoint. I'm blaming the airlines, period. They can, and must, do a lot better.

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 4543 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
Airlines really need to step up to the plate and start taking an interest in this market. New Orleans' recovery in the tourism field is tied hand in hand with its air service. And right now, that recovery is pretty much stagnant. But I'm not blaming the city or the state or the aviation board this time. They are doing all they can from a marketing/promoting standpoint. I'm blaming the airlines, period. They can, and must, do a lot better.

I agree that MSY is in need of some of the service it had prior to Katrina. I am curious as to whether you have the yield for the soon-to-return international routes. Loads are not too hard to come by but tell only half of the story. Is most of the traffic business or leisure passengers?


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 4524 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 1):
Is most of the traffic business or leisure passengers?

I know It's definetely more of a leisure/business mix now than before the storm. I don't have the numbers with me now, but the last I heard was that the airport is seeing more business passengers now than ever...there was an article in the New Orleans CityBusiness magazine several months back talking about this. I hope Tom in NO jumps into this thread because he could probably shed some more light into this subject.

FYI, the yield for TA was likely pretty good from MSY. Average fare was at a minimum $600 roundtrip on the MSY-SAP run....not too cheap for a two hour flight. Not sure about AC, although they shot themselves in the foot by flying the CRJ's which generally couldn't go out with a full load on MSY-YYZ.


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 4475 times:

Even with good business traffic, you don't have the O&D that you had before Katrina. You don't have the population that you had before Katrina. If MSY didn't have the convention traffic it does, the airport would likely have half the traffic it had before Katrina. Remember, convention traffic isn't as high yielding as business traffic. All the incentives in the world won't do a bit of good because the airlines themselves know that demand isn't what it once was in that market. Appears to me that the airport board wants to sell the airport as if the ecomony and population are exactly as it was before Katrina. That's simply not the case, at least not yet.

User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 4450 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 3):
Even with good business traffic, you don't have the O&D that you had before Katrina. You don't have the population that you had before Katrina. If MSY didn't have the convention traffic it does, the airport would likely have half the traffic it had before Katrina. Remember, convention traffic isn't as high yielding as business traffic. All the incentives in the world won't do a bit of good because the airlines themselves know that demand isn't what it once was in that market. Appears to me that the airport board wants to sell the airport as if the ecomony and population are exactly as it was before Katrina. That's simply not the case, at least not yet.

O&D traffic...down some, but likely not by a lot. Remember, Orleans Parish took a good hit, but the majority of the potential client base for the airport did not come from much (i'd venture to say 95%) of the population which has yet to return. That goes hand in hand with...

Population....down some, but not a lot anymore. Immediate metro area is about 87% of what it used to be and growing....nearly 1.2 million last report I read. The population of the airport's catchment area is basically the same, which is what counts, as MSY sees a decent amount of drive in passengers from the BTR and GPT areas.

No, I don't think the airport board is trying to sell the airport as it was before Katrina. I don't think anyone expects WN to have 56 flights a day from here, for instance, nor would it be realistic for them to do so. But the city itself is seeing a pretty significant increase in traffic across the board (leisure, corporate, convention) so they are shooting (and rightfully so) for increased service to major and under served markets. I don't think the airlines are generally spending much time in the market research department in regards to MSY.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17651 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 4419 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
what else does the New Orleans Aviation Board have to do to try to get new airlines and/or routes into this airport?

Maybe it's not the airlines or airport that's the problem



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 7 hours ago) and read 4389 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
Maybe it's not the airlines or airport that's the problem

Well, it's not the business that the city is seeing. Not according to the Convention and Visitor's Bureau anyway. Things look really good on that end. The problem is that to increase business, there has to be more supply from the airlines. So right now the city is sort of stuck, unfortunately, until some airlines recognize the opportunity.


User currently offlineBA744PHX From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 7 hours ago) and read 4364 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 6):
Well, it's not the business that the city is seeing. Not according to the Convention and Visitor's Bureau anyway. Things look really good on that end. The problem is that to increase business, there has to be more supply from the airlines. So right now the city is sort of stuck, unfortunately, until some airlines recognize the opportunity.

How much increase in business has there been? And how does it justify increase in cities and additional frequencies?


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 7 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

[quote=BA744PHX,reply=7]How much increase in business has there been? And how does it justify increase in cities and additional frequencies?[/quot]

That's a question which is probably better suited towards the New Orleans CVB and/or the Aviation Board. They obviously feel like it's needed, so I believe them. They have the data, I do not.


User currently offlineNateDAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 7 hours ago) and read 4318 times:

As a former resident of the Garden District, I have to agree with MaverickM11 that the problem is not the airlines.

If there is a market that has any potential for profit, airlines will take advantage. The reality is that New Orleans has been in decline for years. Orleans Parish has been losing population since the 1950s. Jefferson has been in decline since the 1980s. The oil and gas business has been consolidated to Houston. Katrina only accelerated these trends. Maybe some tourism will rebound and MSY will warrant a bit of new service, but NOLA has a lot more to worry about that a 1x per day flight to OAK.



Set Love Free
User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 7 hours ago) and read 4300 times:



Quoting NateDAL (Reply 9):
but NOLA has a lot more to worry about that a 1x per day flight to OAK.

No one said the city doesn't have any economic issues. I'm not going to go into that. I'm looking at this from the perspective of the folks who know the city left and right in terms of how many people visit the city, the type of traveller they are, and how many nights they spend.

One flight to OAK, as you pointed out, would go a long way in making it easier for for people...leisure, business, conventioneers, whatever...to reach the city. It's all about more choices. Everyone knows that nonstop flights are a piece of the puzzle in attracting new businesses and retaining current ones. The same holds true for convention traffic. In fact some large conventions cancelled out on New Orleans last year because of a "lack of nonstop flights".


User currently offlineBA744PHX From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4287 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 8):

That's a question which is probably better suited towards the New Orleans CVB and/or the Aviation Board. They obviously feel like it's needed, so I believe them. They have the data, I do not.

So basically they are like most cities in the country that just want additional service? If the demand was there the airlines would have it but they dont. Many cities state they need service to XXX because demand is there. However where do they get their information to support their request would be interesting. The only place to get an accurate number of increase in business travelers to XXX city is from the airlines directly. And needless to say airlines wont be rushing to give their personal information to anyone.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 11):
So basically they are like most cities in the country that just want additional service?

Not really. I can't think of any recent city in the nation which was wiped out, lost all air service for over a month, and slowly regained service, while at the same time having its market dynamics changed from mostly all leisure, to no leisure, to a better mix of business and leisure.

[Edited 2008-01-25 08:29:45]

User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4267 times:



Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 11):
However where do they get their information to support their request would be interesting.

Like I said, data collected from the CVB would be a good place to start...visitor trends, most common destinations, length of stay, etc. There are people who research that stuff for a living.


User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1916 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

are people really moving back there? Wonder why.

anyhow, as has been said a number of times, if the traffic is there, airlines will fly it. You aren't going to see airlines fly just to make people feel better about something. If they aren't in there now, the incentives aren't good enough.

Same with housing these days. if you're house isn't selling, it is priced too high. End of story, it's all about money.



They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlineBA744PHX From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4249 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 13):

However it would not be as accurate from what the airlines information would be. Which is your number one source for flying travelers trends


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4248 times:



Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14):
are people really moving back there? Wonder why.

Why not?

Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14):
anyhow, as has been said a number of times, if the traffic is there, airlines will fly it.

Well, as is being proved in this instance, that's not always the case.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4242 times:



Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 15):
However it would not be as accurate from what the airlines information would be.

No but you can believe that all the big CVB's have a pretty good idea as to what the mix of clientele is to a city. It's probably the best you are going to get and I would venture to say that it's very accurate.


User currently offlineAAce24 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 849 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4242 times:



Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14):
Same with housing these days. if you're house isn't selling, it is priced too high. End of story, it's all about money.

 checkmark 

Exactly.

Everything, in the end, is about the money.


User currently offlineBA744PHX From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4225 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 17):

No but you can believe that all the big CVB's have a pretty good idea as to what the mix of clientele is to a city. It's probably the best you are going to get and I would venture to say that it's very accurate.

Trust me I know how CVB works... I worked in the business in planning over 70% of the countries largest conventions. And again I will tell you from experience... they arent really that accurate. Hotels/Airlines are the least willing to give up personal information regarding their clients. and I would know I would personal audit them and its not the easiest thing to do considering all the personal legal information that it involves. and what you get out of them is very general information.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4199 times:



Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 19):
Trust me I know how CVB works... I worked in the business in planning over 70% of the countries largest conventions. And again I will tell you from experience... they arent really that accurate. Hotels/Airlines are the least willing to give up personal information regarding their clients. and I would know I would personal audit them and its not the easiest thing to do considering all the personal legal information that it involves. and what you get out of them is very general information.

Well, there's no real way to follow that up except to say that it's doubtful they would publish a misleading article stating an increase in business passengers. If you're really that interested I'd shoot an email to Stephen Perry at the NOMCVB. Or better yet, Sean Hunter at the NOAB. I'm sure between the two of them they could tell you the methodology that was used.


User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4187 times:



Quoting BlatantEcho (Reply 14):
are people really moving back there? Wonder why.

Explain your question, and the logic behind your following comment if you would...if you can.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 3):
All the incentives in the world won't do a bit of good because the airlines themselves know that demand isn't what it once was in that market.

I'll let the traffic numbers speak for themsleves. Let's look at the 2007 year-to-date traffic figures for MSY (through November) as compared with 2006:

American: up 10.4%
Continental: up 9.3%
Delta: up 11.5%
ExpressJet: up 100%
JetBlue: up 1.7%
Northwest: up 7.1%
Southwest: up 28.0 %
United: up 16.8%
USAirways: up 58.9%
TOTAL: up 22.4%

Now, what was this about demand not being there  wink  ? Our flights go out full more often than not, and visitors to New Orleans constantly comment about the lack of flights.

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3297 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4181 times:



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 6):

Well, it's not the business that the city is seeing. Not according to the Convention and Visitor's Bureau anyway. Things look really good on that end.

Again, convention traffic isn't what the airlines want to see, especially with the current price of fuel. Convention traffic doesn't travel on business fares, it travel on leisure fares that are usually negotiated with the airline. They are going to use yield management to keep prices up, but there's only so much they can do. Other markets hold more profit potential.

Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 7):
How much increase in business has there been?



I've read that a lot of business migrated up I-10 towards BTR because of available space. How much of an increase has BTR seen in traffic. If you look at the combined markets pre-Katrina and post-Katrina, how many fewer seats are there? I suspsect that growth in BTR and decline in MSY may leave the combined number of seats pretty close to where it was before MSY got hit. The additional seats in BTR may be closer to many of the high yielding customers today.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 4161 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 22):
Again, convention traffic isn't what the airlines want to see, especially with the current price of fuel. Convention traffic doesn't travel on business fares, it travel on leisure fares that are usually negotiated with the airline. They are going to use yield management to keep prices up, but there's only so much they can do. Other markets hold more profit potential.

When did I say the increase was just related to convention traffic? The CVB covers all ends down here...leisure, convention, corporate. City wide, there's an increase in demand on all levels. Fares are noticeably higher than before, as well. Airlines can make money in this market, and do.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 22):
I've read that a lot of business migrated up I-10 towards BTR because of available space. How much of an increase has BTR seen in traffic. If you look at the combined markets pre-Katrina and post-Katrina, how many fewer seats are there? I suspsect that growth in BTR and decline in MSY may leave the combined number of seats pretty close to where it was before MSY got hit. The additional seats in BTR may be closer to many of the high yielding customers today.

Well, BTR saw an initial increase in traffic, but has since leveled off considerably. They lost most of the flight additions which were made after Katrina...no more DL mainline to ATL, no more AA mainline to DFW, no more nonstops to LGA, EWR, STL, MCO. Besides F9 moving into BTR, things are pretty much status quo on that front: many of the potential BTR passengers drive to MSY to catch a nonstop.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 4155 times:



Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 21):
I'll let the traffic numbers speak for themsleves. Let's look at the 2007 year-to-date traffic figures for MSY (through November) as compared with 2006:

American: up 10.4%
Continental: up 9.3%
Delta: up 11.5%
ExpressJet: up 100%
JetBlue: up 1.7%
Northwest: up 7.1%
Southwest: up 28.0 %
United: up 16.8%
USAirways: up 58.9%
TOTAL: up 22.4%

Now, what was this about demand not being there ? Our flights go out full more often than not, and visitors to New Orleans constantly comment about the lack of flights.

Thanks for that, Tom.


25 PilotNTrng : Why isn't convention traffic good enough? They are butts in seats aren't they? Who's fault is it about price negotiations and the fare structure? AIR
26 BA744PHX : Now Im to lazy to do this but based on the percentage that is up how much does it amount to numerically?
27 PVD757 : you'd think that NW would just add 1 more flight (to 7) to take advantage of that 85% deal - ????? Don't forget that a portion of the problem is the g
28 MSYtristar : I used to fly DL and UA regularly out of PVD as they offered 757 service. That 7:00am flight PVD-ORD was a nice connection to the 9:30am ORD-MSY...an
29 PVD757 : and I just noticed that if US went up to 14 (only 1 more) they would pass the 85% level too. DL needs to add 2 more to get past 85% as well.
30 Post contains images Tom in NO : I'm probably lazier than you , but let's see here.....the 22.4% I mentioned above were enplanements only, and they went up from 2,807,773 to 3,437,00
31 Post contains links Mikey711MN : Tom, with all due respect, these are intensely misleading statistics that simply reflect the impressive return of business to the NO area after Katri
32 MSYtristar : Well, I was actually the one seething over the fact that AC went back to AUS before MSY. But I know that AUS is a hot market and very well deserves a
33 Post contains images Tom in NO : Mike, thanks for the props.....here's where I come from on all this, and please excuse what'll no doubt look like rambling on my part : The 2000-2006
34 Indy : New Orleans (city limits) population has been on the decline since the 70's. It took a huge hit of course because of Katrina. According to wikipedia
35 LAXintl : Why this obsession? Fine you might have connections to N.O., and we sorry what happened in N.O., however to keep harping about airlines might or migh
36 CALPSAFltSkeds : Where's Pride Air when you need them?
37 Post contains images MSYtristar : It's not an obsession, really. And I don't want or expect sympathy from anyone. That's never been my intention. I call it like I see it, man. And I t
38 LAXintl : We know, just pulling your leg. However I do feel you still talk up the market more than it really is. If it was the goldmine every airline would hav
39 Post contains images MSYtristar : It's not like I'm asking for the impossible. My days of pushing for AF to CDG are long since gone. I'd just like to see some more service to a handfu
40 MSYguy : MSYTristar, I feel for you. You make some valid points, as do some others in this thread. But I haven't the energy to rebut every misinformed point. Y
41 Dc10s2hnl : A few days ago I had an adventure dealing with my canceled Ted / UA flight to LAX. Lots of folks were put up in hotels until the next day since there
42 AmtrakGuy : A slight different question about MSY -- last time I visited (pre-Katrina), the airport were tight with land and space. I did read after Katrina, ther
43 Shadez : I really think Spirit should go in and set up shop in MSY. 3x weekly flights to SAP, 2x Daily to FLL, and a flight to BOS. I think there is an opening
44 EA CO AS : I understand your frustration, but once all is said and done it comes down to whether or not an airline sees a compelling business case for new or ad
45 MSYtristar : Part of the master plan (and I've seen it) calls for a new terminal....and there are several locations that are being studied around the field. It wo
46 BR715-A1-30 : Hi Stephen, I will agree that when I visited MSY in 2000, the place was bustling.. Jazz was everywhere, and it looked like a lively place. Then when I
47 Post contains links MSYguy : The master plan and various design options for a new terminal are actually posted publicly on the airport's website -- www.flymsy.com -- and they are
48 BlatantEcho : I don't really feel the need to defend myself, as most of a.net these days is just unfounded opinions. That said, my point stands about the traffic th
49 Post contains images Mariner : I agree. Part of the reason people come here is because they have a passion about something - airliners or airlines in general or in particular. It w
50 Post contains images MSYtristar : Oh you know I have lots of love for F9. I'm wearing a Grizwald shirt today, actually. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate that. And I appreciate good
51 Post contains links LoneStarMike : I don't have much to add to the discussion, but I did find this blog entry from a few days ago about this very issue. Regarding that last sentence in
52 Mariner : Is something happening down in that neck of the woods at the end of March? From about mid-March, Frontier is adding a 3rd daily DEN-BTR - at least, ac
53 MSYtristar : Maybe just a seasonal increase in traffic for the latter part of ski season? I know that plenty of Louisianians make their way to Denver when the sno
54 Mariner : Maybe that's it. As well as: It seems to revolve around March 29, and a couple of weeks either side. Thanks. mariner
55 LoneStarMike : Also, Easter is March 23 this year and isn't mid-March when most schools have their Sprink Break? LoneStarMike
56 MSYtristar : Yeah...that could be...I know LSU has a pretty big ski club, so i'm sure that's good for higher than normal demand that time of year.
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