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Russians Widebody Twins? Why Not?  
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but I was thinking, why did the russians not ditch the quad IL96, (not that I don't like it), but instead go after a widebody twin, using the same cross section of the IL86/IL96, western avionics and western engines?? I know Antonov at one point had a widebody twin concept in mind, here's the link: http://ram-home.com/ram-old/an-218.html
They could have ditched the dated Lotarev D-18's and replaced them with CF6,PW4000, or Trents. Opinions very welcome.

On a side note I've been on an extended vacation from A.net. This is my first post in over 5 months and man is it nice to be back!!


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3017 times:

It just seems to me like it wouldn't be worth it. Nobody would buy it. The fleet commonality, support infrastructure, and favor for Russian jets just isnt there for almost every airline/country... added to the fact that it would be going up against the A350 and B787... both very advanced offerings from the two most experienced and capable airline builders in the world.... it just wouldn't stand a chance.

Russia has created / offered westernized versions of some of their aircraft, including the IL-96 with western avoinics/engines, but it still did not sell even though it, like many of the other offerings, are very nice aircraft.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2979 times:
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I agree with FlyF15.

With the fall of the Soviet Union, both Russian and client state airlines can now purchase Boeing and Airbus planes so the market for a Russian-sourced plane would likely be very small. It is clear the Russians have experience and expertise in building commercial airliners, but their product line and performance are not as broad as what Boeing and Airbus offer. And the costs to expand that product line and improve performance to match what Boeing and Airbus offer would require massive investment in the Russian aerospace sector and the results would likely take over a decade to bear fruit.


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

That An-218 looks rather like a 777 crossed with an A300.....  scratchchin 

Karl


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

While agree with you guys, what I meant was, why didn't they build a widebody twin like 20 years ago to compete with the 767 and A300/310/330?? I understand that now it wouldn't be worth it going up against the 787/350, but perhaps they may have generated some sales against last generations western widebody twins...??


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2902 times:
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Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
While agree with you guys, what I meant was, why didn't they build a widebody twin like 20 years ago to compete with the 767 and A300/310/330?

They likely lacked the technological and industrial base to effectively do so, especially in the area of engines. And at the time, due to the Cold War, they would not have been able to easily obtain access to the technologies necessary to improve their industrial base to do so.


User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

It is my understanding that the Russians want to develop a big twin at some point but right now they're working on first merging all the various civil design houses and manufacturing plants into one company. The Superjet is just around the corner and the MS-21 737/320 sized aircraft is only a few years off. After that you'll probably see a TU-204 replacement based on the MS-21 fuselage. When all that is accomplished, and if done successfully, only then will you see them get back into the widebody market.

A big issue is that they don't have any suitable domestic powerplant. If they did the twin IL-98 would already be in the air.


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2875 times:



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):
It just seems to me like it wouldn't be worth it. Nobody would buy it. The fleet commonality, support infrastructure, and favor for Russian jets just isnt there for almost every airline/country... added to the fact that it would be going up against the A350 and B787... both very advanced offerings from the two most experienced and capable airline builders in the world.... it just wouldn't stand a chance.

Money talks, and if Russia offered an A350/787 sized competitor at a low enough price per copy that was certified to "Western" standards, I think there would be some market, especially if they were able to exploit Russia's involvement in both Airbus and Boeing. They've tried with western engines and avionics, but I think they need better marketing - they need their own Mr. Leahy).

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
While agree with you guys, what I meant was, why didn't they build a widebody twin like 20 years ago to compete with the 767 and A300/310/330?? I understand that now it wouldn't be worth it going up against the 787/350, but perhaps they may have generated some sales against last generations western widebody twins...??

They didn't have the engines needed.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2753 times:



Quoting Khobar (Reply 7):
They didn't have the engines needed.

That's why I previously said they could have tried to use western engines, however Stitch addressed that with

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
due to the Cold War, they would not have been able to easily obtain access to the technologies necessary to improve their industrial base to do so.




We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 2494 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 8):
That's why I previously said they could have tried to use western engines, however Stitch addressed that with

Yeah, I think the posts crossed or something.

Of course the Russians sometimes do things a little oddly - someone mentioned the An-218.

http://www.ussr-airspace.com/catalog/images/al/103/14152518.jpg

How many folks do you think would get out in 90 seconds?  Wink

(yes, I know it's a model)


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2259 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2485 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
While agree with you guys, what I meant was, why didn't they build a widebody twin like 20 years ago to compete with the 767 and A300/310/330??

20 years ago, the Soviet Union still existed. There was zero competition between the Russian and Western manufacturers. Soviet and East European airlines had to buy the Russian airplanes anyway.

And when the Soviet Union collapsed, so did the airplane industry, and it has not recovered since.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlinePlobax From France, joined Jan 2008, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2402 times:



Quoting RedChili (Reply 10):
And when the Soviet Union collapsed, so did the airplane industry, and it has not recovered since

I think it very well could. The russians are serious players.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2199 times:

I think the engines are the problem, PS-90 is the biggest engine used on former COMECON aircraft and 4 of them needed on the Il-96?
As for large airframes, no problem.


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1982 times:



Quoting Khobar (Reply 9):
How many folks do you think would get out in 90 seconds? Wink

Holy Smokes!!  Wow! Geez I'd say around maybe 90  Wink I guess that forgot to add the doors to that model...



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
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