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Why Can't I Fly China Airlines ANC-JFK?  
User currently offlineAS777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10026 times:

Hey ya'll, question for ya. We have 2 airlines (year round service) that fly through ANC for fuel. Not sure about Cathay, but I do know China Airlines boards passengers...atleast on their flight through here JFK-TPE. Why is it that I can't get on for the second part of the TPE-JFK leg.

This kind of service would be awesome, and I am sure popular with the Alaska folk, especially wanting to fly to Europe via JFK. A non-stop service to JFK would be nice. Even for just east coast travels.

I have read in some thread on here about different degrees of "freedom rights". I have yet to do my homework on those, so don't know exactly what that means, but does that come into play here?

Its not like we don't have customs or an international terminal, so why can't I board this plane?

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

Simple answer: Foreign airlines can't carry domestic traffic in the U.S.


a.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9989 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Simple answer: Foreign airlines can't carry domestic traffic in the U.S.

Or almost everywhere else in the world with few exceptions.


User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10007 times:



Quoting AS777 (Thread starter):
Not sure about Cathay

Cathay hasn't flown JFK-ANC-HKG in a very long time, IIRC. They did fly YYZ-ANC-HKG, with a ANC being used as a refueling stop (2nd freedom), with no traffic rights on YYZ-ANC or ANC-HKG. The flight was moved to YVR, with an HKG-YVR-YYZ, though the route is either nonstop now or will be very soon.

It'll be a cold day in hell before the United States allows a foreign carrier to transport passengers on domestic routes. IMO it would be great if the two non-contiguous states and territories could have some kind of exemption, but that, again, is unlikely.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

This topic comes up as often as a NW DC9 thread.

A simple search would have given you at least one thread on this topic just this week:

Hop In On BA In USA Domestic Flight? (by Scotland1979 Jan 23 2008 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineBosWashSprStar From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9926 times:

To the OP: see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air

The question is the difference of Fifth Freedoms vs. Eighth Freedoms. Fifth freedom routes, like Cathay's HKG-YVR-JFK and Qantas's SYD-SFO-YVR, have local traffic rights on both individual sectors since both are international flights. (Fifth freedoms are particularly common for carriers like EK--DXB-BKK-SYD, for example--and SQ--SIN-ICN-SFO, for example--which use continuing flights to extend their addressable market beyond simply nonstops to and from their home base.)

But in the case of Eighth Freedom flights, the domestic sector is not typically permitted to carry standalone passengers. TPE-ANC-JFK is one example of this; Qantas' SYD-LAX-JFK is another in which the JFK-LAX sector is open only to those passengers continuing on Qantas to Australia. A foreign example of this would be United's LAX-SYD-MEL flight, in which the Australian domestic sector can carry only United passengers coming from the US.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 3):
The flight was moved to YVR, with an HKG-YVR-YYZ, though the route is either nonstop now or will be very soon.

CX currently flies 2x daily HKG-JFK nonstop and 1x daily HKG-YVR-JFK, with local traffic rights on both halves of the latter route as both are international flights. AFAIK, CX is keeping the 1-stop flight for the time being, and complementing it with the nonstops--I guess maybe they do enough business JFK-YVR to warrant keeping it in addition to (what's soon to be) 2 other daily HKG-YVR services?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9885 times:



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 3):
Quoting AS777 (Thread starter):
Not sure about Cathay

Cathay hasn't flown JFK-ANC-HKG in a very long time, IIRC. They did fly YYZ-ANC-HKG, with a ANC being used as a refueling stop (2nd freedom), with no traffic rights on YYZ-ANC or ANC-HKG. The flight was moved to YVR, with an HKG-YVR-YYZ, though the route is either nonstop now or will be very soon.

CX has never operated HKG-YVR-YYZ to the best of my memory. They recently eliminated the ANC stop on their daily HKG-YYZ-HKG flights when they changed from the A340-300 to A340-600. Three days a week they have a second flight to/from YYZ that still makes a fuel stop at ANC both ways.

Current CX HKG-JFK service is twice daily 777-300ER nonstops and a once daily 747-400 that stops in YVR.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9799 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):

CX has never operated HKG-YVR-YYZ to the best of my memory.

Yes, they started it right after 9/11. Not sure how long it went on for.



a.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9780 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):

CX has never operated HKG-YVR-YYZ to the best of my memory.

Yes, they started it right after 9/11. Not sure how long it went on for.

It must have been a very uneconomic operation without the ability to carry passengers on the 2000 mile YVR-YYZ-YVR legs. I recall that KE and CA operated via YVR to YYZ for some time, similarly uneconomically.


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9481 times:



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 3):
Cathay hasn't flown JFK-ANC-HKG in a very long time, IIRC.

Well, I don't know what they're flying them on, but we get about 5 Cathay A340-300s a day here at Anchortown, all park at gate N8.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9421 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
Well, I don't know what they're flying them on, but we get about 5 Cathay A340-300s a day here at Anchortown, all park at gate N8.

The only A340s that ANC sees from Cathay are three a week, as fuel stops to Toronto.



a.
User currently offlinePlaneguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9388 times:

FYI - I was looking at the CX JFK-YVR flights recently, but learned that while they had the lowest N/S fare, no AA miles could be earned. Was unable to see if that was all fare classes, but certainly the lowest econ fair was blocked.

Of course this only matters to the mileage fiends out there...



I want to live in an old and converted 727...
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9354 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
Well, I don't know what they're flying them on, but we get about 5 Cathay A340-300s a day here at Anchortown, all park at gate N8.

The only A340s that ANC sees from Cathay are three a week, as fuel stops to Toronto.

That would besix a week, 3 in each direction. Wouldn't be surprised if winds occasionally require an unplanned fuel stop for the A340-600s westbound YYZ-HKG.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9236 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Foreign airlines can't carry domestic traffic in the U.S.

With some leeway. Qantas used to have a 747 then 767 that flew SYD-HNL-SFO. The HNL-SFO was considered a US domestic route. They were allowed to carry traffic if the person had boarded in SYD and took a few days in HNL. They were also granted permission to fly passengers from HNL to SFO during one of the numerous UA strikes.

Same rules apply to QF JFK-LAX service, it's considered US domestic, but you have to a ticket that as an OZ destination on it.

I agreed with you regarding China service ANC-JFK. One would think with the lack of non-stops from ANC to the east coast, that Senator Stevens would have worked some kind of arrangement to allow it, but may CI didn't have any desire to service the route. After all Senator McCain stepped in a saved the HP/US non-stop service from DCA, with the way the original order US wouldn't have been eligible because of the US having hubs close to DCA, yet AA lost the DCA-LAX service because they had a hub within 650 miles.


User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9197 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 13):

I agreed with you regarding China service ANC-JFK. One would think with the lack of non-stops from ANC to the east coast, that Senator Stevens would have worked some kind of arrangement to allow it, but may CI didn't have any desire to service the route.

Why wouldn't they want the ability to sell tickets for ANC-JFK? Just because they're allowed to doesn't mean they're required to sell the tickets.


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9076 times:

You CAN fly JFK-GRU on JAL however. Not sure if they still fly the route, but back in 2002 while waiting on my VS flight to LHR at JFK, a JAL 744 pulled up next to our 744 and the announcement was made for the flight to Sao Paolo. Passengers who were coming from NRT and going on to GRU had to wait in a "sterile" area made by putting up large dividers between the gate and the departure hall. Back then, you COULD buy JFK-GRU on JAL, but I also think you can purchase JFK-FRA on SQ and EWR-DXB on Malaysian (i think).

UAL


User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1256 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9068 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 13):
After all Senator McCain stepped in a saved the HP/US non-stop service from DCA, with the way the original order US wouldn't have been eligible because of the US having hubs close to DCA, yet AA lost the DCA-LAX service because they had a hub within 650 miles.

Senator McCain has been instrumental the whole way in this service. I'm not sure of any 650-mile-hub rule with the DCA slot exemptions. If there is one, it's rarely enforced. Hell, DL has the SLC flights and it has THREE hubs within 650 miles of DCA. UA has DEN and it has a hub 25 miles from DCA.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9052 times:



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 15):
You CAN fly JFK-GRU on JAL however. Not sure if they still fly the route, but back in 2002 while waiting on my VS flight to LHR at JFK, a JAL 744 pulled up next to our 744 and the announcement was made for the flight to Sao Paolo. Passengers who were coming from NRT and going on to GRU had to wait in a "sterile" area made by putting up large dividers between the gate and the departure hall. Back then, you COULD buy JFK-GRU on JAL, but I also think you can purchase JFK-FRA on SQ and EWR-DXB on Malaysian (i think).

Those are international routes, not domestic. You can still fly JFK-GRU with JAL, JFK-FRA with Singapore, MIA-SJO with Martinair Holland, LAX-LHR with AirNZ, etc., etc.



a.
User currently offlineAnonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9003 times:



Quoting IADCA (Reply 16):
UA has DEN and it has a hub 25 miles from DCA.

Are Colorado and Washington DC that nearby each other?



This is my signature.
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1256 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8977 times:



Quoting Anonms (Reply 18):
Are Colorado and Washington DC that nearby each other?

No, but IAD is 25 miles from DCA. That's a hub within 650 miles. DEN is outside the perimeter, hence UA needs a slot exemption to fly there.


User currently offlineAnonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

Oh. I misread that sentence haha.


This is my signature.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8846 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
The only A340s that ANC sees from Cathay are three a week, as fuel stops to Toronto

Well, I sure am glad you know better than me- it's not like my office is RIGHT UNDER THE GATE where they park that bird. Oh wait, my office IS right under that gate.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
That would besix a week,

It really does seem like more... I know that in recent memory, we've had at LEAST three in one day. Maybe they're unsched, but it's been withing the last two weeks.

Anyhow back to topic, I'd love to take a CI flight from here to JFK, especially since no domestic carrier serves the route.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8796 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 21):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
The only A340s that ANC sees from Cathay are three a week, as fuel stops to Toronto

Well, I sure am glad you know better than me- it's not like my office is RIGHT UNDER THE GATE where they park that bird. Oh wait, my office IS right under that gate.

In this instance, I apparently do know better than you. Cathay only flies six (as corrected after me) passenger A340-300s a week to Anchorage. They are HKG-ANC-YYZ and YYZ-HKG-ANC, CX 828 and CX 829. That's it. No other passenger flights, no other A340-300 flights.

They fly cargo flights to Anchorage, but I don't know the frequencies, and they are not on A340s.



a.
User currently offlineAmtrakGuy From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8747 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 13):
yet AA lost the DCA-LAX service because they had a hub within 650 miles.

No...DCA-LAX was TWA route -- when AA brought TWA, the slots went back to DOT -- I believe Delta won the slots. Then soon after that, additional slots were made available and Alaksa won the slots for DCA-LAX route.


User currently offlineOcracoke From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8475 times:

Can not airline employees buy stand by tickets on some of those flights (ie: JFK-LAX on Qantas)?

25 Mariner : Do you know if it was different a long time ago - forty years ago? Back in the late sixties, I flew AKL-NAN-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR with BOAC. On the HNL-SFO
26 L-188 : I could have. Back 10 years ago when I was working for RV, we had China Air on an interline agreement. 50 bucks to NY from Anc. Never had any reason t
27 Doug_Or : fwiw my airline has the following restriction on our interline w/ Qantas ...All applicable taxes are additional. Travel is allowed in Coach Class onl
28 UALDUDE : One word.....C-A-B-O-T-A-G-E....look it up.
29 LGAtoIND : I completely agree that cabotage should not be allowed in the U.S. However, I think it is completely asinine that when two cities like ANC and NYC are
30 MSYPI7185 : Why? What do you have against the US? I do not know of any country that allows a foreign carrier to serve its domestic routes. If the demand is there
31 LGAtoIND : Yes, cabotage should not be allowed in the US, which is what is currently in place now. Therefore I am pro-protecting the US airlines buddy. Check yo
32 Post contains links Jrosa : UAL747, you CAN buy in Sao Paulo, Brazil, a round trip ticket with JAL to fly GRU-JFK-GRU without the necessity to buy the JFK-NRT-JFK leg. JAL has 5
33 MSYPI7185 : Maybe I am failng to see your point here, how does allowing a foreign carrier (non US) serve ANC - JFK in this instance protect US airlines? Yes it w
34 Anonms : How are you protecting the US airlines? None of them serve the route. If there is demand for it, why not allot CI 8th freedoms on ANC-JFK-ANC? If the
35 RobertS975 : Selling the ANC-JFK segment as a standalone creates certain logistical issues as well. For example, when the flight arrives at JFK, all aboard will ne
36 Viscount724 : Some years ago before JL started routing their GRU flights via JFK they operated NRT-LAX-GRU and also had 5th freedom rights LAX-GRU. RG also had 5th
37 FlashFlyGuy : Stamp their boarding passes with a big D, for DOMESTIC. Then have a special lane for the D BP holders to be processed through upon arrival. That's ho
38 Worldsurfer : SQ can sell JFK-FRA , and now they are selling IAH-DME which starts march 20 or 21 st , i cant remember off the top of my head. MH flies EWR-ARN , an
39 ElmoTheHobo : You completely eliminate any foreign competition within the domestic market. Yes and no. No one serves it nonstop, but plenty of direct and connectin
40 AirNZ : Then you'd be wrong there! A simple example off the top of my head is EI flies BFS-LHR. FR flies BHD/STN, BHD/LPL, BHD/GLA and BHD/EMA
41 KEno : You are right there, but in this respect European Union is considered a single country, at least in terms of air travel regulations (irrespective of
42 RobertS975 : I cannot see that working here in the USA... it opens up the theoretically possibility of smuggling something into the country by handing the contrab
43 Viscount724 : Australia and New Zealand have had a similar "single market" arrangement longer than the EU. QF operates domestic flights in New Zealand and NZ could
44 Post contains images FlashFlyGuy : True, because I just realised that the US Customs is different. Don't all passengers still go through Customs at the first port of arrival? (I think
45 Paomien : CI012 (TPE-ANC-JFK) clears customs @ JFK, although the immigration procedures are done @ ANC. IIRC, I believe you're allowed a stopover @ ANC no matt
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