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Horrendous DL Taxes And Fees - Since When?  
User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Posted (6 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 5834 times:

Hi!

I am a loyal DL flyer but now I have been put off quite a bit. I recently booked a trip to ORD from DUS but do to a family issue I have to fly to ORD a few days after arriving back in DUS again. Now I looked up flights starting 3/17. Seems good, since they say the base fare is 300 USD. Now DL has never charged more than 80 USD in taxes on this route. So I click on the date and then I see a whopping 319-322 USD in fees and taxes... I went on the explanation link and it says that the "International Taxes" are around 250 USD. Flat taxes, huh?! Sounds weird. I smell BS aka a covered up fuel surcharge.

What gives...


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 5813 times:

Blame the German government, that's what gives. Delta isn't trying to scam you. European governments have been ripping off air travelers for decades.


a.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26361 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 5808 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
Blame the German government, that's what gives. Delta isn't trying to scam you. European governments have been ripping off air travelers for decades.

Absolutely not. Like Ushermittwoch said, the taxes charged on the route are nothing compared to the surcharge DL hides and pretends is a tax.

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Thread starter):
Now DL has never charged more than 80 USD in taxes on this route. So I click on the date and then I see a whopping 319-322 USD in fees and taxes... I went on the explanation link and it says that the "International Taxes" are around 250 USD. Flat taxes, huh?! Sounds weird. I smell BS aka a covered up fuel surcharge.

You smell correctly.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 5781 times:

I come up with Euro 206.24 fare plus Euro 209.80 in taxes on DL.

United shows Euro 290.00 fare plus USD$372.20 in taxes.

Lufthansa shows Euro 290.00 fare plus Euro 266.00 in taxes plus Euro 19.00 ticketing fee.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26361 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 5763 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 3):

That isn't all, or even a majority, taxes.

Here is the break down on flights going out on 3/13 and back in on 3/21. It shows an EUR 192 fuel surcharge/hidden ripoff fee. That is, sadly, equal to nearly $282. Further, back to MAH's point about the EU ripping people off, most of the taxes are actually being charged by the US government.

Fare (A1): DL DUSATL QLABDE4 fare (rules) €300.00
Fare (A2): DL ATLDUS ULSSDA fare (rules) €87.50
Tax: German Passenger Service Charge €15.44
Tax: German Airport Security Tax €3.93
Tax: US International Arrival Tax $15.40
Tax: French Airport Tax €9.63
Tax: French International Passenger Service Charge €8.78
Tax: French Aviation Civile Tax €7.04
Tax: US Customs Fee $5.50
Tax: US Immigration Fee $7.00
Tax: USDA APHIS Fee $5.00
Tax: US September 11th Security Fee $5.00
Tax: US International Departure Tax $15.40
Tax: DL YQ surcharge €192.00
Tax: US Passenger Facility Charge $9.00
Total for 1 adult passenger: $965.50



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 5745 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Here is the break down on flights going out on 3/13 and back in on 3/21.

I used the OP's stated departure date of March 17, returning arbitrarily on the 26th and used each of the airline's websites to look up the fares. YMMV


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 5744 times:

I stand corrected in this situation.

I still stand by what I've say that European government rip off air travelers with taxes and fees, however. When I lived there and took intra-EU flights, I typically paid more in taxes than airfare.



a.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26361 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 5730 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):

I still stand by what I've say that European government rip off air travelers with taxes and fees, however. When I lived there and took intra-EU flights, I typically paid more in taxes than airfare.

Think that all depends on the which government and in which situation. Further, the fact that you are crossing borders often means you are getting double taxed, despite the relaxation of most tariffs in the Community.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 5709 times:

The YQ/YR surcharges were started by European airlines a few years ago to cover additional security costs, and then for fuel surcharges. The USA carriers have followed suit recently. The real reason for separating out this surcharge instead of just bumping the fare basis is because they can make them apply to FF award tickets. I think it sucks, but they had to equalize the charges between the alliance FF programs for award tickets as an AF TATL ticket was costing USD $350 and a DL was $80 for the same miles.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 5679 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 8):
I think it sucks, but they had to equalize the charges between the alliance FF programs for award tickets as an AF TATL ticket was costing USD $350 and a DL was $80 for the same miles.

That's AF's problem. A free ticket is earned, claiming the free ticket doesn't include the fuel to get you to where you are going is ludicrous.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 5654 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
That's AF's problem. A free ticket is earned, claiming the free ticket doesn't include the fuel to get you to where you are going is ludicrous.

I agree, but then you had the problem of FFers not being able to redeem award tickets on alliance partner airlines because of the different basis of fares. It turned into a clusterf*ck. The EU airlines won out on this one, as the USA airlines have all followed suit.

I was not defending the practice, just trying to give some historical perspective.


User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 5627 times:

So the lesson here is that tickets to Europe are an arm and a leg in taxes, and DL is charging the same as other carriers.

Heck I thought everyone already knew that.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26361 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 5620 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 11):
So the lesson here is that tickets to Europe are an arm and a leg in taxes, and DL is charging the same as other carriers.

Again, it isn't an arm and a leg in taxes. The sooner people get that out of their head, the better. The arm and a leg is being charged in fuel surcharges.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 6 hours ago) and read 5521 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Again, it isn't an arm and a leg in taxes. The sooner people get that out of their head, the better. The arm and a leg is being charged in fuel surcharges.

Why dont airlines just add it into their base fare as its not like these fuel prices are going to drastically drop any day soon .. I know it makes the advertised fare sound cheap .. But really a fuel surcharge is not a tax its just income for the airline to pay for their costs .. Airfares should if possible be all inclusive .. All excluding the actual taxes for international flights that will vary on the day of purchasing due to exchange rates .. Air NZ now on its advertising and on its web site for travel ex NZ the fares are all inclusive exc international taxes it makes booking so much clearer .. Also the airfares to destinations now dont vary as much as the advertised price to international destinations and that has to be good for the consumer knowing the airfare wont rise by up to $400 as the case used to be ..



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 5419 times:

Just as a comparisson, CO only charges 112 USD for the same time frame for CGN-EWR-CLE-MSP-IAH-EWR-AMS-CGN. Apparently they have not yet jumped on the "international taxes" bandwagon. Want to guess who is getting my business now...

And as stated above, since AF/KL charge you 240 Euros plus 60000 miles to fly MSP-NRT-PEK-NRT-MSP on an "award" ticket, I am sure some US airlines have realized that it is a good iea to rip their elite flyers off, too.
Wonder how long this practice will go on for, sadly I have a feeling it will not change, even if the fuel/oil prices should go down considerably.
I was mainly just shocked because last time I checken, last week, these charges were not in place yet...



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 5410 times:



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 14):
And as stated above, since AF/KL charge you 240 Euros plus 60000 miles to fly MSP-NRT-PEK-NRT-MSP on an "award" ticket, I am sure some US airlines have realized that it is a good iea to rip their elite flyers off, too.
Wonder how long this practice will go on for, sadly I have a feeling it will not change, even if the fuel/oil prices should go ...

I'm flying on Tuesday DTW-CDG-VIE, MUC-AMS-DTW using WorldPerk Miles in Biz class. Big Fricken Deal that I had to pay a couple hundred bucks in taxes, I'm getting a 8K ticket for peanuts.


Get over it.


User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 5383 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
I'm flying on Tuesday DTW-CDG-VIE, MUC-AMS-DTW using WorldPerk Miles in Biz class. Big Fricken Deal that I had to pay a couple hundred bucks in taxes, I'm getting a 8K ticket for peanuts.


Get over it.

Yeah, well there is a difference in flying Y and J on an award ticket when it comes to relations between savings and taxes paid, wouldn't you agree...

Interestingly DL has also restructured the fare I am flying on in Feb. The price is almost the same, the difference being that the ticket now costs 206 Euro (not 355) and the taxes are 210 Euro (not 60).  Yeah sure



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineLH431 From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5118 times:



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 16):
Yeah, well there is a difference in flying Y and J on an award ticket when it comes to relations between savings and taxes paid, wouldn't you agree...

 Confused Who flies in Y on an award ticket??? I just payed nearly 300euros for a *A award to Bali in C. Since I got the miles quite cheap I don't care about these so-called taxes aka fuel surcharge = more profit for the airline.

Regarding taxes and the base fare: If you book a non refunable economy flight DUS-MUC on LH you pay 103euros. The fare is 1euro, taxes&surchagres are 87euros and the ticketing-fee is 14euros.
If you dont take the flight you get all the taxes of 87euros back. Isn't that great? Just 15euros cancelling fee for a socalled non-refundble fare.  bigthumbsup 



There is a better way to fly
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4000 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5043 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 8):
The real reason for separating out this surcharge instead of just bumping the fare basis is because they can make them apply to FF award tickets.

Would this stand to court scrutiny? I don't think so. I can see how a passenger has to pay for airport usage on an FF ticket. But Delta and other airlines are tacking a fee on an input used to produce the flight - if there can be a fuel surcharge on award tickets, why not tack a catering surcharge, a cockpit crew surcharge, a lavatory surcharge, etc, and have the fare set at 99 cents?

Besides, the amount of surcharge as stated below....

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Tax: DL YQ surcharge €192.00

is much more than the marginal fuel consumption of the traveler, which transatlantic roundtrip should be less than 100 USD for a passenger and bags.

If an airline feels they need to adjust their FF agreement because of the price of fuel, they should do it by jacking up the number of miles required to claim an award, not with hidden fees.


User currently offlineWhoopWhoop From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4952 times:

Well, burning 10,000lb/hr for an internationl flight takes a lot of gas ya know. FYI, gas isnt cheap. How do you expect airlines to recoup the increase in the price of gas on there operating cost or the increase in landing fees at airports. OH, wait, i know, take it out of the employees salary, benefits and retirement...right?!?
Folks get use to it, airline travel is not a right, it is going to get even more expensive and the skys more crowded. The only things that have drop ped at airlines are employee costs. You pay for gas for your car at the pump ..whether it 3 dollar a gallon...or 8bucks or whatever in Europe...you pay and get on with your life? Whats the "tax" on a litre of gas in europe these days in proportion to the price of the actual litre of gas? It just frustrates me when folks complain about the cost of airtravel. Its not a cheap venture to get into..costs have to be coverd and consumers will have to pay.


User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4934 times:

Am I wrong or did the EU Govt's recently place a 80 Euro (?) fuel surcharge due to Global Warming concerns. A way for each pax to "pay for their carbon offset" by flying? I have to take time to look it up, but I seem to remember seeing this somewhere.

User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4313 times:



Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 14):
Just as a comparisson, CO only charges 112 USD for the same time frame for CGN-EWR-CLE-MSP-IAH-EWR-AMS-CGN. Apparently they have not yet jumped on the "international taxes" bandwagon. Want to guess who is getting my business now...

If you honestly think that CO doesn't charge a fuel surcharge, then think again.

There's three ways that an airline can charge a fuel surcharge:
1. The way LH, BA, AF, QF, CX and practically every other airline do it: YQ/YR "tax"
2. By means of Q-Surcharge, which CO does - true, you won't see it on the Internet, but they'll have a base fare of, let's say, €200 in the fare displays. If you quote those flights, the base fare will increase to, for example, €350 - plus the taxes...
3. The way that, currently, practically only Emirates does it (of the worldwide operating carriers, there are some smaller/regionally restricted airlines that also do this): they include it in the base fare from the get-go, accepting that they'll seem more expensive in pure fare displays, but going the honest route nonetheless.

I'm certain that CO's transition to either YQ or YR is just a matter of time...



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3717 times:



Quoting WhoopWhoop (Reply 19):
Well, burning 10,000lb/hr for an internationl flight takes a lot of gas ya know. FYI, gas isnt cheap. How do you expect airlines to recoup the increase in the price of gas on there operating cost or the increase in landing fees at airports. OH, wait, i know, take it out of the employees salary, benefits and retirement...right?!?
Folks get use to it, airline travel is not a right, it is going to get even more expensive and the skys more crowded. The only things that have drop ped at airlines are employee costs. You pay for gas for your car at the pump ..whether it 3 dollar a gallon...or 8bucks or whatever in Europe...you pay and get on with your life? Whats the "tax" on a litre of gas in europe these days in proportion to the price of the actual litre of gas? It just frustrates me when folks complain about the cost of airtravel. Its not a cheap venture to get into..costs have to be coverd and consumers will have to pay.

Yes but this is a cost to the airline and we all agree passengers should pay for the extra fuel used .. But to make things clearer a fuel surcharge should not be charged as a tax as its not a tax , incorporated it into the base fare as its a cost to the airline like wages etc .. If fuel ever comes down in price the airlines can always reduce the base fares or increase if fuel goes up .. As someone said before whats stopping a wages surcharge etc etc being next ..



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineZKEOJ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2005, 1003 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3596 times:



Quoting LH431 (Reply 17):
Who flies in Y on an award ticket???

People who don't fly THAT much to collect endless miles. They are happy to reach the point where they can get one free reward ticket in Y... Not everybody is in the situation that their employer forks out loads for frequent travel in C or F! I am flying about twice a year AKL-Europe, and a couple of trips here and there (Asia, OZ, etc). My employer pays Y only (as most employers in my business, actually - I worked in Germany, Scotland, Canada, and NZ...). A round trip to Europe brings you just over 20K miles, so a mere domestic award ticket. And more recently, lots of airlines credit no or only 50% of flown miles on low Y fares. I am not complaining, but it seems a bit arrogant to me to think that everybody can afford C award tickets.
And btw, reward upgrades are a joke, too! Most of the time your fare is not "eligible" for an upgrade, i.e. you have to pay for a pricey Y ticket (which is almost as expensive as a C ticket) and then have to use tons of miles for an upgrade. And even better now, UA states "we no longer accept Star Alliance upgrades at this time". Funny: "at this time" - I doubt they'll ever come back.
Again, I am not complaining - the business is tough, and it won't get any better. Airlines have to survive. But the attitude is sometimes not exactly nice, neither is the promotion of all the great benefits you have as *A Gold member... The only real advantage is lounge access, and I am more than grateful to have that on a 24+hrs flight from AKL to FRA...

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 20):
did the EU Govt's recently place a 80 Euro (?) fuel surcharge due to Global Warming concerns. A way for each pax to "pay for their carbon offset" by flying?

I'd be happy paying that if I knew it really would go to Carbon offset schemes. I doubt it does though. It is rather a tool to deter people from flying shopping for a few hours in Paris or London.... and rightly so!

Just my 2 cents
Cheers
micha


User currently offlineReggaebird From Jamaica, joined Nov 1999, 1176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

I am so tired of Europeans bashing Delta. In particular, this guy bashing Delta for taxes or surcharges that are not of their making is really lame.

Delta is offering decent service at reasonable prices, especially if you fly in BusinessElite. No, it's not Singapore or Emirates-level service and equipment but I will take Delta over Air France, British Airways and Lufthansa anyday. I find the staff to be genuinely friendly on Delta flights and I appreciate that.

I lived in the UK for most of last year and made 11 roundtrips to Boston during my assignment. I flew Delta BE via New York on 6 of the 11 trips and twice in Y....and I loved it everytime. I even loved it when one flight was delayed indefinitely by a mechanical issue. Delta put me in a business class seat on American Airlines even though I was flying Y on my original ticket. Now that is a sign of a GREAT airline.


25 ZKEOJ : He didn't "bash" DL for the taxes, but for the "hidden" fuel surcharges....
26 Avion : hey that is an af surcharge. the charge only applies if an AF coded flight is in ur itinery, regards, t
27 N1120A : I think it is blatantly obvious that these surcharges are far more than what the actual difference is. No
28 Tu154m : Guys, get used to it. Name one airliner that doesn't need an oil based fuel..................yep, not one. Prices will continue to rise until oil beco
29 Jetdeltamsy : The airline is not going to refer to legitimate taxes as such to hide fees. Everything is broken out. And it is the truth. Taxes are outrageous depart
30 N1120A : The OP, and many others, was obviously confused. Actually, airliners can theoretically run on alternative fuels already available.
31 EvilForce : I don't think anyone is saying the airlines shouldn't increase fares to cover the additional fuel costs. What irks them (and me) is that it's simply r
32 Ushermittwoch : As somebody who has actually read my posts and most answers will see, my intention is not to bash DL, which is my favorite US airline, but rather to p
33 Post contains links Nzrich : I 100% agree with you .. Airfares should be all inclusive exc taxes as they can change depending on exchange rates .. Why should airlines be able to
34 Phollingsworth : The interesting thing is that all of the airlines in Europe do this to some extent, CO seeming to be the exception. Of course if you start your trip i
35 Ikramerica : Sorry, but CO includes it in the base fare as well, at least in the way the customer sees it. Go to CO.com, look up fares. Fuel surcharge is not list
36 UAL777UK : I have to laugh here, wait until you fly F or J out of LHR, then you will find out what taxes are! Dont get me wrong Y is bad enough!
37 Max999 : I don't have a problem with airlines having fuel surcharges when oil prices are high, but why is DL calling this a tax if for no other reason than to
38 CV880 : It's the bottom line that counts, and how it is calculated is immaterial to most shoppers.....In trying fare searches for identical itineraries, from
39 Bond007 : Well, that's true in the US too. I assume the difference is whether the flight is advertised ORD-DUS or DUS-ORD. As far as the US authorities are con
40 G4resagent : They would if they could. US airlines are not allowed to charge fuel surcharges, so they add it to the base fare.
41 Ikramerica : the base fare must even include the 7.5% excise tax, because this tax is known to the airline is based directly on the price the airline charges incl
42 Bond007 : Not sure what you mean here? Most US airlines do not include a Federal Excise Tax in the base fare, which amount to something like $3.50 a segment. I
43 G4resagent : I did read the thread. I was referring to DL not being allowed to separate a fuel surcharge in the breakdown.
44 Analog : Translation: It's fraud. It allows them to charge for "free" tickets. Exactly! Neither are pilots and other labor. Neither are aircraft. Does that ju
45 Post contains images Bond007 : I stand corrected perhaps I see Continental at least, mention it included a 7.5% excise tax. Jimbo
46 Post contains images LO231 : DL used to do it, but anyway, in Europe they advertise prices all in now, you cannot advertise 200 plus tax.. Exactly, price is the same, only the ba
47 Bond007 : Don't for once think that you have some advantage over the airlines here .... they're not dumb either. Firstly, no taxes or surcharges have to refund
48 Leskova : Just because they don't split the fuel surcharge out of what they display as base fare on the website does not prove in the least that they include t
49 Jano : I prefer this way. The fuel surcharge is a part of the fare. Fare (A1): NW DUSCHI LLSXDE fare (rules) €289.52 Fare (A2): NW CHIDUS HLPXDE fare (rul
50 Bond007 : All very good information, but what Ikramerica said is absolutely true ... the key part of the sentence being "at least in the way the customer sees
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