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What If LHR And Other Airports Become 24 Hours?  
User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1858 posts, RR: 10
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4238 times:

I have wondered this question about airports that have a curfew due to noise regulations imposed since a long time ago. Now with advances in aviation and restrictions as to the types of aircraft flown into world major airports such as LHR and SYD, aircraft will be able to land and takeoff using less noisy technology.

What if an airport like LHR opens 24 hours, who would get the aircraft slots? Who determines who gets to fly in what time, and will it affect LHR expansion? If the airport becomes 24 hours, it would minimize the need for expansion since aircraft can fly into any time of the day. Surely, airlines will fight for slots, and who gets them?

Thanks,
Reguards,

QatarA340


لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7616 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4180 times:



Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
What if an airport like LHR opens 24 hours

Sorry. No chance.

Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
who would get the aircraft slots?

The EU regulations on slot allocation would apply. These have been incorporated into UK law. An independent company, Airport Coordination Ltd (ACL), has been given the responsibility of both allocating and monitoring the use of slots at UK airports like LHR. They also have the power to confiscate unused or misused slots.

The legal requirements focus on increasing competition. As such they give preference to newcomers which are defined as airlines not currently operating to but with a desire to operate to the airport in question.

Further details can be found in the document "The Airport Slot Allocation Regulations" at:

http://80.168.119.219/UserFiles/File/Slot%20Sanctions%20Regulation.pdf

But be warned it is a legal document that needs both determination and stamina to read.

In practical terms the most likely significant increase in LHR slots would come from the construction of a third runway although a significant (up to 15 per cent) if smaller increase could come from mixed mode operation of the existing two runways. However here (as with the third runway) there would be certain legal hurdles to cross.

For example, planning permission for T5 included a caveat that the number of movements at LHR would not exceed 480,000 per annum compared to current usage of about 476,000. However if mixed mode were introduced it would theoretically allow an increase in movements at peak hours. This would need to be almost balanced by a reduction in movements at less favoured times of the day.


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

I would imagine that those overnight slots, if it EVER happened would go to low cost EU operators and low cost charter operations as most major airlines already have a tight schedule with other airlines for transiting pax through LHR during the day. You MIGHT get one or two flights from US airlines and BA in and out of LHR during the odd hours, but they would just be bonus flights to carry additional low-yeild vacationing pax to and from their destinations.

But, as you theorized, yes, it would open up a lot more slots, but it ain't gonna happen because those airlines who have paid a pretty penny for the current slots they have don't want to change the time of their slots, (unless it is for the better, during the peak times) and you screw up your connecting pax by coming into LHR say around 3AM or departing for the US say at 12AM. Leaves them at their destination airport at really strange times.

UAL


User currently offlineLeonB1985 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4065 times:

Technically, LHR is operational 24 hours a day, with 24 hour ATC, emergency services, immigration, customs, etc. There are several aircraft types permitted to operate into LHR during the night jet ban without counting towards the night noise quota, so if you want to operate to LHR in your Gulfstream 5, Bombardier Global Express, certain Cessna Citations - or even you Piper Seneca at night, it is technically possible (on an ad-hoc basis anyway)!

User currently offlineThreeFourThree From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4009 times:

Living under a SYD flight path for landing is hell if its 6am. There are constant aircraft just moving the engine throttles a bit up just to wake people up If I'm already awake its fine but not when its a weekend and you want to sleep in.

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3634 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3860 times:



Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
What if an airport like LHR opens 24 hours,

When the last tree hugger is locked in a padded cell this might just happen. For LHR read the same for most other Western European hubs.


User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3838 times:

LHR (and other airports) will only be 24 hours if the legal basis for night flying restrictions are no longer met. In other words any aircraft that does not produce more than about 65dB(A) (peak) outside the airport perimeter will be allowed to fly 24 hours. However, for typical mid-sized jets that means a reduction of about 20-25dB(A) (less than a quarter of the sound created) compared to today's jets. There is no fundamental reason why such reductions cannot be achieved (talking as an aerospace engineer here), but it's not easy.

SailorOrion


User currently offlineRwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3536 times:
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Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 6):
However, for typical mid-sized jets that means a reduction of about 20-25dB(A) (less than a quarter of the sound created)

A 25dB reduction is about a 316-fold reduction in sound intensity. dB is a logarithmic scale, with one bel, being a factor of 10 (and a decibel, being about a factor of 1.26).


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3625 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3525 times:

CGN in Germany is open 24 hours, yet it is not very important for passenger travel. It has lots of integrator UPS cargo traffic at night, but this is a business limited to only a few airports in Europe.

I doubt that LHR would have much more traffic if it were open 24 hours. Customers do not like to land or take off in the middle of the night.


User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3516 times:



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 7):
A 25dB reduction is about a 316-fold reduction in sound intensity. dB is a logarithmic scale, with one bel, being a factor of 10 (and a decibel, being about a factor of 1.26).

Sound intensity yes, perceived sound, no  Smile Perceived sound doubles about every 3dB(A).

SailorOrion


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3486 times:

I have been through Osaka Kansai and Nagoya airports heaps of time. It seems like those are 24 hours airports as they are on their own artificial islands. Seems like Kobe airport is the same, I have not been through it yet. I really like Nagoya airport. Although it is not, Kansai looks a bit old to me.


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMelpax From Australia, joined Apr 2005, 1632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3479 times:



Quoting VV701 (Reply 1):
Quoting QatarA340 (Thread starter):
What if an airport like LHR opens 24 hours

Sorry. No chance

That would be the same for SYD as well. That would pretty much finish off the political career of any politician who decided to lift restricitions. MEL on the other hand is 24 hours, as it's situated on the edge of suburbia.



Essendon - Whatever it takes......
User currently offlineRwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3447 times:
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Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 9):
Quoting Rwessel (Reply 7):
A 25dB reduction is about a 316-fold reduction in sound intensity. dB is a logarithmic scale, with one bel, being a factor of 10 (and a decibel, being about a factor of 1.26).

Sound intensity yes, perceived sound, no Perceived sound doubles about every 3dB

A doubling every 3dB(whatever), is a total of 322-fold over 25dB(whatever). 25dB gives you room for eight doublings (256-fold) and then about 26% more.

And since it's actually a hair less than a "doubling" for each 3dB (closer to 1.9953 times), we actually get 316-fold for 25dB.


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

If LHR became 24 hrs, then I would probably be the Pope by that time.......not going to happen in such a highly populated area. Aircraft decibels would have to be bordering on silent to have any ops.

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3634 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3381 times:



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 13):
If LHR became 24 hrs, then I would probably be the Pope by that time.......not going to happen in such a highly populated area. Aircraft decibels would have to be bordering on silent to have any ops.

If the situation was reached that aircraft noise reduced to virtually nothing, the campaigners would then move on to the noise of the traffic taking passengers to the airport, or some other gripe.


User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

HKG is a 24 hour airport, and there is very little traffic between 0100 and 0600 (apart from express cargo flights) - I think that there are only two pax flights - both to Seoul

Airlines fight for slots at times people want to fly...


User currently offlineVinnieWinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 793 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

I reckon you'd grt a lot of cargo operators flying in at night! Other than that little Pax flights other than maybe some charter flights.

User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3245 times:



Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 14):
If the situation was reached that aircraft noise reduced to virtually nothing, the campaigners would then move on to the noise of the traffic taking passengers to the airport, or some other gripe.

Your so right on that point!!!!


User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4923 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3105 times:



Quoting VinnieWinnie (Reply 16):
I reckon you'd grt a lot of cargo operators flying in at night! Other than that little Pax flights other than maybe some charter flights.

Indeed - look at Gatwick as an example of what would happen. The middle of the nighht wouldnt be a very attractive time to fly for most passengers



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineTheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

If LHR did go 24 hours there would be very little passenger traffic between 0000 & 0500 as there isn't really a demand to come in or out of LHR at that time of night. There are no connections and transport links stop after midnight and don;t start again until the early hours. Where I could see passenger traffic increasing is the window between 0500-0600 where more arrivals form the far east, USA would be scheduled.
Cargo traffic would probably take advantage of the small hours though.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3122 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2948 times:



Quoting Melpax (Reply 11):
That would be the same for SYD as well. That would pretty much finish off the political career of any politician who decided to lift restricitions. MEL on the other hand is 24 hours, as it's situated on the edge of suburbia.

That's because of all the Nimby's around here and their whinging. If the airport could do limited operations with approaches and takeoff's to the South over Botany Bay then I'm sure a system could be devised for ATC.

However, and more to the point, there really isn't a need for night operations at the Sydney because most of the major airlines that fly here link to connecting banks of flights in Asia and the Middle East which have pre-exisitng times. So unless QF, JQ or DJ were going to significantly increase their operations, which I really can't see, there isn't a need for it.

What is needed is for the politicians to allow Sydney to run at its maximum capacity throughout the day now because at the moment it can't due to restrictions.


User currently offlineAirportplan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 469 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2904 times:

O'Hare is 24 hour per day but only about 1% of passenger operations occur between 00:00 and 6:00. Passengers simply do not want to catch a flight in the middle of the night. An exceptions to the rule at ORD are some flights to Mexico. Some of them are timed to depart at 1:00 or 2:00 so that they arrive in Mexico City in time to meet coach buses that distribute people thoughout Mexico. But cargo flights during that time period are another story. A great deal of cargo operations, particulary for intergrated operators, FedEx, DHL etc. occur during the early moring hours.

User currently offlineCupraIbiza From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 836 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2859 times:



Quoting ThreeFourThree (Reply 4):
Living under a SYD flight path for landing is hell if its 6am. There are constant aircraft just moving the engine throttles a bit up just to wake people up If I'm already awake its fine but not when its a weekend and you want to sleep in.

Thats interesting. I live directly under the flight path of MEL. No curfew. If I am up late I hear movements at 1am 3am 5am you name it. It was an issue the first few months but now I dont even notice them. If fact a few years back when they closed the main rainway for a month (to make it A380 ready) I kinda missed them.

Quoting Melpax (Reply 11):
MEL on the other hand is 24 hours, as it's situated on the edge of suburbia.

This is true. There is industrial parks and paddocks around the airport perimeter, there are still a number of suburbs that are deemed to be noise effected.

Having said that current (and more importantly future planes) are much more quiet. I have had the pleasure of watching (and hearing and feeling) a 707 take off over my house. Now thats noise.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 20):
However, and more to the point, there really isn't a need for night operations at the Sydney

I would have to disagree. The current curfew is 11pm isnt it? We have quite a number of international movements between 11pm at 100am. Gotta love the 2359 departures



Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27100 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2847 times:

LHR will never happen . For all the reasons posted above. They are lucky to have got a far as they did . There is a large opposition to any expansion at LHR be it mis guided IMHO !!!

ATH is 24 hours and flights go to lots of places between 0100-0500 . The airport was packed the last time I was there.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7616 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2761 times:



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 8):
I doubt that LHR would have much more traffic if it were open 24 hours. Customers do not like to land or take off in the middle of the night.

If your hub is slot bound and if you cannot fly any aircraft out of it between 11.30pm and 6.30am and cannot land a single aircraft between 1130pm and 5.00am this is not the case. Some destinations will require an unsocial departure. For LHR the time zones where this is the case stretch from Bahrain to Bangkok. Hence the following BA departure times:

BA010 BKK-LHR d. 1210am a. 5.55am
BA028 HKG-LHR d. 1.10am a. 6.20am
BA036 MAA-LHR d. 4.00am a. 9.40am
BA072 AUH-LHR d. 2.40am a. 6.25am
BA106 DXB-LHR d. 2.55am a. 6.40am
BA124 BAH-LHR d. 2.10am a. 6.30am
BA138 BOM-LHR d. 2.40am a. 7.05am
BA142 DEL-LHR d. 3.25am a. 7.25am
BA144 DAC-LHR d. 5.10am a. 10.35am

You can demonstrate that none of the above timings are strictly necessary (so, for example, there is a second DEL-LHR flight that departs at 1230pm and arrives at 4.40pm). But there are two other restrictions. One is the problem of no night departures on the outward flight and the other is that BA have a smaller proportion of all slots at LHR than any other major airline at its home hub. (Although DL has a smaller proportion of all slots at its JFK hub, JFK is not its home hub.)

So I conclude that if BA is willing to operate 9 flights with early morning departures for flights to LHR it would be willing to operate quite a few flights with early morning departures out of LHR if this was permitted.

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 15):
HKG is a 24 hour airport, and there is very little traffic between 0100 and 0600 (apart from express cargo flights) - I think that there are only two pax flights - both to Seoul

As you will see above there is a third. BA028 (HKG-LHR) is scheduled to depart just at the start of this period at 01.10am.

Quoting Airportplan (Reply 21):
O'Hare is 24 hour per day but only about 1% of passenger operations occur between 00:00 and 6:00.

I am not doubting your statement. However on a BA PHX-LHR flight we made a medical diversion to ORD landing soon after midnight. After disembarking the ill passenger we had to wait an hour while the crew of a fuel bowser were got out of bed to come to refuel us! Nothing else moved on the ramp while we were there. So, as you say, it is not very busy.


25 Sydscott : I'd be in favour of extending the curfew to midnight but beyond that I don't really think it is necessary. You would only be talking about a handful
26 CupraIbiza : I find it fascinating that the Minister responible (Anthony Albanese - Minister for Transport) is also the local member for Grayndler which covers ma
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