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Cost Of A Tank Of Gas On A 777?  
User currently offlineAuroraLives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 180 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15409 times:

Hello,

The German "taxes"/Fuel Surcharge Delta thread got me thinking... How much of the "fuel surcharge" actually goes to fuel.

For example: AC YYZ - FRA on April 9 has a base (return) fare of $481 with a (return) fuel surcharge of $158.

This means a 1 way fuel surcharge is $79. The AC 77W seats 349 pax.
Sooo.. $79 x 349 = $27,571 total Fuel Surcharge for the flight. (assume C$1 = US$1)

So my question..... does anyone know what a "tank" of gas would cost for a 777 on YYZ - FRA ?

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4864 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day ago) and read 15281 times:

AC lists its 77W fuel capacity as 47,903 us gallons ( http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/77W.html )
IATA lists jet fuel at $107/barrel for the week of Jan 18 ( http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/economics/fuel_monitor/index.htm )

1 barrel = 31 gallons
47,903/31 = 1545.26 barrels
1545.26 * 107 = $165342.82

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineAuroraLives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 1 day ago) and read 15161 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 1):
1 barrel = 31 gallons
47,903/31 = 1545.26 barrels
1545.26 * 107 = $165342.82

Thanks YOWza...

To further refine (using metric to avoid US/imp gallon issues):

77W tank is 181,280 litres with a range of 14,594 km.
YYZ - FRA is 6,346 km (be generous and say it only needs half a tank (90,000 litres) to get there)

Wikipedia lists 1 barrel as 159 litres ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_%28unit%29 ).

90,000 / 159 = 566 barrels.

I get 566 * $107 = $60,562 total fuel bill for the flight.

Hmmmm... this fuel surcharge is (relatively) small compared to others I've seen... yet it is almost 1/2 the total gas bill... One day I'll catch em...  Wink


User currently offlineBA777 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 15091 times:

In the Azores I was told €28,000 for 20,000kg of fuel.

User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 14869 times:

I've read a good starting point is figuring about 0.1 lbs of fuel per pax per nm.

So, AC's plane holds 349 pax you say.
YYZ-FRA is 3435 nm.

0.1*349*3435 = 119,881.5 lbs of fuel for the trip.

1 gal Jet A weight approx 6.74 lbs.

Trip fuel usage: 17,786.5 gallons.

About 573 barrels, extremely close to the answer by AuroraLives with a different calculating method.

If the airline is paying $3/gal for fuel then the bill is $53,359.50.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26361 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 14856 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 4):

If the airline is paying $3/gal for fuel then the bill is $53,359.50.

I doubt they are paying that much.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6343 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 14839 times:

Also, everyone, remember that you very rarely top off the tanks in an airliner.

If you did, your payload (passenger and luggage) capacity would be extremely limited...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 14791 times:



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 4):
If the airline is paying $3/gal for fuel then the bill is $53,359.50.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
I doubt they are paying that much.

Pretty close... $2.75 to $2.90 a gallon in most places... Just over $3.00 in some places.


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 14781 times:

I would further argue that the cost of filling the tanks of a 777 with gas will range into the millions of dollars required to drain and purge the systems to remove all contamination and rewrite the refueling procedures and train staff to ensure such an error doesn't happen again.


The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 14746 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
Also, everyone, remember that you very rarely top off the tanks in an airliner.

Right, but...

Quoting AuroraLives (Reply 2):
YYZ - FRA is 6,346 km (be generous and say it only needs half a tank (90,000 litres) to get there)

Uh, but...

See, the thing is, the route in question is an ETOPS flight, and the fuel regulations, requirements, and restrictions for ETOPS flights are VERY complicated. You have to have enough fuel to land at your alternate airport plus thirty minutes of circling there, plus thirty minutes of circling over the Atlantic in case of ATC hold, plus thirty minutes of circling over Dubai because, face it, everybody circles there, plus thirty minutes circling for flight attendant preparedness, plus thirty minutes circling for storms in South Africa....

okay, I joke, but seriously, it takes a LOT of extra fuel to do ETOPS routes. I didn't know about it until I read this month's AIRWAYS magazine, the article about the HA 767 ETOPS flight.
Very interesting stuff.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6343 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 14676 times:



Quoting Threepoint (Reply 8):
I would further argue that the cost of filling the tanks of a 777 with gas will range into the millions of dollars required to drain and purge the systems to remove all contamination and rewrite the refueling procedures and train staff to ensure such an error doesn't happen again.

 rotfl  How true!

However, I hear that jet engines aren't too particular about the actual fuel that they burn...although 100LL would probably leave behind some pretty heavy lead deposits Big grin

The only way I see this error even remotely possible is if the mistake were to be made at the fuel farm, by placing the wrong fuel on board a big Jet-A rig at an airport that doesn't have hydrants. Even then, the largest Avgas (100LL) storage tank that I've ever encountered was a 10,000 gallon one.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineKstatepilot From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 14619 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
okay, I joke, but seriously, it takes a LOT of extra fuel to do ETOPS routes.

Yes, but how much fuel they actually use is different. All the hold/reserve/alternate/extra fuel they have in the airplane will still be there when they land, and it will still be able to be used on the next flight.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8403 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 14597 times:

The fuel surcharge has nothing to do with paying for the fuel. It is just a hike in ticket prices, symbolically because oil prices have gone up recently. It's not entirely fallacious but not directly going in the fuel tank, either.

Nor is the "fuel surcharge" proportional to distance for example. Instead it is just a marketing gimmick.


User currently offlineAuroraLives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 14499 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
The fuel surcharge has nothing to do with paying for the fuel.

Exactly my point.

Thank you ALL for your help.... now that I know how the calculation works, my mission in life is to find a "fuel surcharge" that is higher than the amount of fuel a plane will burn over the course of the flight  mischievous 

Then it's just a matter of finding someone who can do something about it.......


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24824 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 21 hours ago) and read 14441 times:



Quoting AuroraLives (Reply 13):
Thank you ALL for your help.... now that I know how the calculation works, my mission in life is to find a "fuel surcharge" that is higher than the amount of fuel a plane will burn over the course of the flight

But the fuel surcharge is the same amount regardless whether you're on a nonstop or making one or more connections (assuming you're paying a through fare and not sector fares) so in many cases the amount has to divided between two or three flights, especially on carriers with hub-and-spoke networks where a high percentage of passengers are connecting.

The only meaningful amoung is the total, including all fees and charges.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19389 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 19 hours ago) and read 14136 times:

I think they should ban fuel surcharges. I have gone for some absurdly low fares only to discover that the fuel surcharge was as much or more than the fare.

It's a "hidden fee." Airlines should be required to disclose the full cost of a ticket (minus state sales tax), including fees and surcharges in all advertisements.


User currently offlineJER757 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 19 hours ago) and read 14030 times:



Quoting Kstatepilot (Reply 11):

Yes, but how much fuel they actually use is different. All the hold/reserve/alternate/extra fuel they have in the airplane will still be there when they land, and it will still be able to be used on the next flight.

Valid point, but won't carrying the extra fuel increase the actual burn (and therefore cost) due to the extra weight?

I'm not familiar with ETOPS flights so not sure how significant this increase would be.



Gale force fog... don't you love it?
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 19 hours ago) and read 13987 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It's a "hidden fee." Airlines should be required to disclose the full cost of a ticket (minus state sales tax), including fees and surcharges in all advertisements.

They are in the USA. Price advertised must be the base price minus only government imposed charges and taxes. It's much different in Europe though.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):
The only way I see this error even remotely possible is if the mistake were to be made at the fuel farm, by placing the wrong fuel on board a big Jet-A rig at an airport that doesn't have hydrants.

No, I made a mistake with my car yesterday ... the nozzle doesn't fit  Wink


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineCO777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 18 hours ago) and read 13466 times:



Quoting YOWza (Reply 1):
1 barrel = 31 gallons

I believe a barrel (of oil) is 42 US Gallons? However a barrel (of beer) is 31 gallons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_(unit)


User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 12 hours ago) and read 10617 times:
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Quoting BA777 (Reply 3):
In the Azores I was told €28,000 for 20,000kg of fuel.

Hmm...I had heard that fuel stopovers in the Azores cost significantly more than that.... at least for Air Transat # 236 anyways.



When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 9984 times:



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 17):
They are in the USA. Price advertised must be the base price minus only government imposed charges and taxes. It's much different in Europe though.

That's generalization. It's much different in some countries in Europe though.

For example, here the airline should advertise the total price, including all taxes and government imposed charges, ie. the total price that is deducted from your credit card when you pay. The consumer agency has recently brought up the issue that some on some airlines' Finnish web pages the price is advertised without the charges and taxes. Even Ryanair's prices now include all taxes and fees, if you choose Finland as your country on their page.


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1982 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 9786 times:



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 19):
I had heard that fuel stopovers in the Azores cost significantly more than that.... at least for Air Transat # 236

One could argue that they saved some money on fuel with their approach.  Wink



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineCorey07850 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2525 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 8 hours ago) and read 8785 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I think they should ban fuel surcharges. I have gone for some absurdly low fares only to discover that the fuel surcharge was as much or more than the fare.

If that's the case they will just raise ticket prices to compensate. You'll end up paying the same amount. 6 of one, a half dozen of another.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 7 hours ago) and read 8575 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):
However, I hear that jet engines aren't too particular about the actual fuel that they burn...although 100LL would probably leave behind some pretty heavy lead deposits

Having run a GA airport at one time I can attest that nobody ever worried about putting avgas into a jet; it would not do any damage, at least as long as there was also jet fuel in it. I suspect that there are fuel pumps and other components that expect some lubricity from the fuel, which avgas is notoriously lacking. The burn of pure avgas may also give a jet engine some indigestion, but should not be catastrophic, and I do not believe that the lead will have any negative effect. Putting even a small amount of jet fuel into a piston engined plane, however, is a very, very bad thing to do (it is the biggest nightmare of any airport operator.) Even a relatively small amount of Jet A in a tank of avgas can destroy the engine; with enough of it (again, it doesn't take a lot) it will happen just about the time the plane is airborne.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineDon81603 From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 1185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 7 hours ago) and read 8484 times:



Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 19):
Hmm...I had heard that fuel stopovers in the Azores cost significantly more than that.... at least for Air Transat # 236 anyways.

True, but it would have cost them a lot more had they NOT landed there.
When calculating the weight of the a/c to keep it balanced during flight, what weight do they assign a single passenger, and how much can the center of gravity be thrown off if you get hockey or football team with all their gear?



Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
25 AeroVega : Sure, but at least you know the full ticket price upfront in that case. So you're not wasting time booking the flight only to find out that the actua
26 N770WD : YYZ-FRA 3435 nm direct Block time 7.0 hrs (25kt tailwind, LRC) 530,000 lbs TOW (90,000 lbs payload, 55,000 lbs passengers and 35,000 lbs cargo) 98,00
27 Post contains images ATCtower : They couldnt just scrape it off the top of the water all the way back to Canada?
28 TWAL1011727 : Deltas B777 holds 302974 lbs of fuel. That divided by 6.7lbs/gallon equals 45220 gallons of jet. 45220 x $2.94 = $132,946.80. KD
29 Threepoint : In some instances (increasingly rare these days) they actually weigh each passenger prior to boarding light aircraft. My parents recall with chagrin
30 Post contains images Speedbird2263 : Hilarious!
31 Post contains links SunriseValley : A different slant, certainly not implying the above calculation is incorrect, and based on passenger load only; From Flightstats; YYZ-FRA 3400nm; fro
32 Luv2cattlecall : I suppose UPS and VA are on to something when they keep pushing for the direct in/constant descent landings! Good thing it wasn't skyBus though, I'd
33 Delta777Jet : The airlines should really include the fu.... fuel surcharges inside their base prices. As almost every airline does fuel hedging covering an entire t
34 Bmacleod : I'd imagine it would be less than a A343 at least per-seat-mile. The GE90 is considerably more efficient than the CFM56-5C4 especially using 4 engines
35 Post contains links and images Tdscanuck : Say no more...taken on a First Choice 757 back in 2006: Tom.
36 Kaitak : Lots of the answers here are looking at two different issues and my question would be: when a crew decides the amount of fuel they need for a flight,
37 Jfidler : What about with award tickets? Usually the ticket is free, but you have to pay taxes and charges. Would you then have to pay the fuel surcharge even o
38 Post contains links Tdscanuck : They order by weight. The fuel quantity indicating system on the aircraft measures weight of fuel on board, and that's what the refuelers use to fill
39 Post contains images KELPkid : It depends. At the GA FBO, fuel is usually sold by volume, even Jet-A. You tell the lineman how many gallons you want, and when I was a lineboy, our
40 SunriseValley : On a per bum basis you would be correct. The Widebodyphotog table that I referenced in reply 31 gives the 343 burn at 0.0166 lbs per seat per nm.
41 Merkuree : Many airlines have fuel hedge agreements, guaranteeing them a lower per gallan cost.....I would suspect that the estimated fuel surcharge for the flig
42 Tdscanuck : That's not a fuel hedge. A fuel hedge is an offsetting investment whose value goes up as the price of fuel goes up. A fuel hedge doesn't let you pay
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