Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AirTran Adds 5 Destinations From MKE  
User currently offlineScutfarcus From United States of America, joined May 2000, 404 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8370 times:

From tonights JSOnline:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=712021

SAN, SFO, LAX, SEA, and BOS

165 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAs739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6141 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8360 times:

Wow, someone want to be the airline connecting MKE to the West Coast.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineVulindlela744 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8349 times:

WOW.......I work for FL and didn't see this on the radar. We are obviously trying to put it to Midwest.

User currently onlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8339 times:

Oh somebody is not playing nice. This is going to make for a great tennis match. The ball is now in YX's court. FL is notoriously impatient. Lets see if they actually keep all these routes for one full year. Meaning lets see if the seasonals run all season as scheduled and if they come back for next season. I'd like to see them stick with something for once.

YX... now what do you do?

Only thing that could make this more interesting if NW were to relaunch their MKE focus city.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineVulindlela744 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8331 times:

Knowing the way we operate I think it will be seasonal. At the moment it doesn't make sense to open these new routes with the price of fuel so high. Yields on these routes won't be great. Let's see what happens. Then again, we do need to put our new 737's somwhere.

User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3969 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8331 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

so what does that bring the totals up to in MKE for FL??


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently onlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8314 times:

I think the report said 13 destinations and 20 flights. I think this should also signal an end to their efforts at IND especially with the late August schedule down to 5 destinations and 12 flights. I guess NW won the battle once again here.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineSFOQQAA From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 96 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8307 times:

Very Interesting... Is this MKE's first nonstop to SAN?

User currently onlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5432 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8268 times:



Quoting SFOQQAA (Reply 7):
Very Interesting... Is this MKE's first nonstop to SAN?

Sure is... I keep wondering how close YX was/is to announcing it as well.

Helps make up for cancelling the SAN-MCO service... somewhat! I look forward to the flight details.

Quoting Vulindlela744 (Reply 4):
Knowing the way we operate I think it will be seasonal.

The quoted article did say "seasonal service".

bb


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8256 times:

Totally idiotic.

At least they say it's seasonal from the start. What's so seasonal about MKE-BOS, though?

Looks like my guesses that AirTran was all talk we're wrong, but I still don't see the point. Milwaukee sees much more service than a city of it's size as is thanks to Midwest, and to open up low-yield, point-to-point vacation routes like MKE-SAN at today's oil prices? What planning really went into this other than saying "let's make Midwest Airlines regret not merging with us"?

AirTran is pretty desperate, yet again, to try to make something work that doesn't involve Atlanta or Orlando.

[Edited 2008-01-29 01:31:49]


a.
User currently onlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5432 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8244 times:

The sked's are showing up in the booking engine:
MKE-SAN 8:35am-10:55am #513 (Eff 5/21/08 thru 9/8/08)
SAN-MKE 11:45am-5:15pm #512

MKE-SEA 8:40am-10:45am #216 (Eff 5/6/08 thru 9/8/08)
SEA-MKE 11:35am-5:10pm #688

MKE-SFO 7:30pm-9:50pm #344 (Eff 5/6/08 thru 9/8/08)
SFO-MKE 11:40pm-5:30am #343

MKE-LAX ? (apparently not loaded yet)
MKE-LAX ?
LAX-MKE 7:00am-12:45pm #311 (Eff 5/6/08 thru ??)
LAX-MKE 11:40am-515pm #514

MKE-BOS 7:00am-10:10am #518 (Eff 5/21/08 thru 9/8/08)
MKE-BOS 6:00pm-9:10pm #512 (thru flt from SAN)
BOS-MKE 6:30am-7:55am #513 (thru flt to SAN)
BOS-MKE 5:30pm-6:55pm #516

Looks like a BOS-MKE-SAN-MKE-BOS turnaround with one a/c and a MKE-SEA-MKE-SFO-MKE with a second plane. The LAX and other BOS flights looks like 2 planes with RON LA and one in BOS but hard to tell for sure yet.

bb


User currently onlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5432 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8234 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
At least they say it's seasonal from the start. What's so seasonal about MKE-BOS, though?

Exactly what they said about SAN-ATL when it was first announced; and I asked exactly the same question about that service as you asked here about MKE-BOS. It turned out the route, SAN-ATL, was not seasonal although they did cut a flight and a half for a few months. (I guess I should say it was not seasonal ...so far!)

I'm just keeping all AirTran schedules in pencil from now on -- and not getting too excited about anything they say or do.

bb


User currently onlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5432 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8206 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 10):
MKE-LAX ? (apparently not loaded yet)
MKE-LAX ?
LAX-MKE 7:00am-12:45pm #311 (Eff 5/6/08 thru ??)
LAX-MKE 11:40am-515pm #514

Looks like a BOS-MKE-SAN-MKE-BOS turnaround with one a/c and a MKE-SEA-MKE-SFO-MKE with a second plane. The LAX and other BOS flights looks like 2 planes with RON LA and one in BOS but hard to tell for sure yet.

Looks like the load is more complete (but still not all done):
MKE-LAX 8:25am-10:50am #517 (Eff 5/6/08 thru 9/8/08?
MKE-LAX 7:25pm-9:50pm #327 (thru from LGA -- with a long lay-over in MKE)
LAX-MKE 7:00am-12:45pm #311 (Eff 5/6/08 thru 9/8/08?)
LAX-MKE 11:40am-515pm #514 (thru to LGA)

There will definitely be another RON in both LA and BOS with one a/c probably doing a MKE-LAX-MKE-LAX, another doing LAX-MKE and a third doing MKE-BOS-fill-fill-fill-BOS-MKE. I notice there are other tag-ons to the new LGA service also, e.g., LGA-MKE-SEA. Someone (hello Knope2001) with more general/overall FL schedule knowledge can take it from here; there certainly could be some current flights cancelled and reassigned to these last 2 turns or there might be additional new services yet to be announced... (They may still be loading other changes as well.) I'm sure you, Knope', will be re-working your MKE turn schedule (Reply 49 in the AirTran Adds MKE-LGA 3X Daily (by AirTran737 Jan 23 2008 in Civil Aviation)
thread); you were certainly on the right track; you just didn't expect this much!

See what's happnin' at FL tomorrow. G'night all.

bb


User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8175 times:



Quoting SFOQQAA (Reply 7):
Very Interesting... Is this MKE's first nonstop to SAN?

I think YX actually used to serve MKE-SAN nonstop a long, long time ago...maybe lasted until the mid 90s.

Can anyone confirm? I am 100% certain they served San Diego before the start of MCI-SAN a few years ago.


User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8101 times:

FL can't be original if their life depended on it. They are just copying YX routes except for SAN. Nothing new, nothing exciting for MKE.

User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1069 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8089 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 3):

YX... now what do you do?

Probably not much....

Midwest's customer base is not going to shift to Airtran. Most of the people who fly Midwest do so because of the "Best Care in the Air"; and are not interested in just saving a few dollars (if they were NW and others would have put Midwest out of business years ago).

I doubt that Airtran will impact Midwest that much. They may have more impact on the other airlines that serve Milwaukee. But even there I am not so sure. Time will tell if Airtran is actually willing to keep these routes. My prediction is that Airtran will fold most of those routes permanently by years end and Midwest will keep on flying.


User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2912 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8083 times:

Here's the flow. It works out cleanly except for the RON (overnight) aircraft types at MKE. They will likely tweak an ATL flight or two to make that work out. The times, as well as the aircraft types on all their new services, flow cleanly.

overnight ….. 600 atl
overnight ….. 630 bwi
LAS 508 ….. 700 BOS
SFO 530 ….. 730 MCO
overnight ….. 730 lga
BWI 745 ….. 825 LAX
BOS 755 ….. 835 SAN
LGA 800 ….. 840 SEA
atl 1017 ….... 1053 atl
LAX 1245 ….. 1325 LGA
mco 1317 ….. 1352 atl
atl 1401 ….... 1438 mco
LGA 1425 ….. 1505 LAS
LAS 1552 ….. 1632 ATL
SEA 1710 ….. 1750 BWI
LAX 1715 ….. 1755 LGA
SAN 1715 ….. 1800 BOS
LGA 1844 ….. 1925 LAX
BWI 1850 ….. 1930 SFO
BOS 1855 ….. 1955 LAS
ATL 1953 ….. overnight
ATL 2018 ….. overnight
mco 2141 ….. overnight

They've set themselves up to serve heavy transcon connecting traffic flows, and it will be interesting to see how that works out for them. They're quite clearly banked both directions twice per day, so that will give them a favorable schedule. The trick is that just about every airline is equally scheduled to offer quick one-stop connections in markets like LGA-LAX and BWI-SEA, so that alone doesn't gain them anything.

For the summer period that this is scheduled to operate, Midwest's load factor in these markets was about 87-92% so there was likely a good deal of spill. The depths of these markets were not yet reached. I suspect we'll reach them this summer, however.

And one final item. Already with this schedule AirTran h as five aircraft on the gruond between 530 and 600, and only four gates. Not a big deal as many airlines have to tow an aircraft in a situation like this every day. But it does show how quickly four gates can be used up, particularly when banks are used like this.


User currently offlineLindy Field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3120 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8073 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hi Trvlr,

Quote:
I think YX actually used to serve MKE-SAN nonstop a long, long time ago...maybe lasted until the mid 90s.

Can anyone confirm? I am 100% certain they served San Diego before the start of MCI-SAN a few years ago.

You're right, Midwest served MKE-SAN/SAN-MKE in the early and mid-1990s when they flew MD-80s from SAN.

Cheers,

Edward


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8017 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Milwaukee sees much more service than a city of it's size as is thanks to Midwest,

That's true of any hub city, but that doesn't mean the market is actually well-served. MKE has relatively high-fares and spills a significant amount of traffic to Chicago. CVG also sees a ton of service for its size, but it too bleeds local traffic to other markets because of high fares and minimal competition.

Whether or not FL will have success with these markets is tough to tell. For a few months in the summer, they'll probably do ok. But if they want to build a real customer base, some of these markets will have to go year-round. FL will have a tough time with routes like MKE-BOS and MKE-SFO in the winter.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 14):
They are just copying YX routes except for SAN. Nothing new, nothing exciting for MKE.

What routes did you expect them to fly? MKE-SAV? MKE-PNS? They have to fly routes that have enough O+D volume to fill a 717 or 737...and there are only so many routes that can do that out of MKE.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4116 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8020 times:



Quoting SANFan (Reply 8):
The quoted article did say "seasonal service".

Air Tran loves to use this 'seasonal' ploy to cover themselves in the event that a route doesn't pan out. It's much more palatable to pull out and say 'the season's over' rather than absorbing the wrath of angry airport managers. They played that game in Portland, Maine and there was nothing 'seasonal' about their service after they started. In other words, PWM has been doing well.


User currently offlineGeorgiabill From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 580 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7956 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Congrats to both FL and MKE. Hope all the new routes work well for them. With Maine being a great place to visit during the summer I am surprised FL did not consider a season flight PWM-MKE.

User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3413 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7928 times:

ah yes, the old 'we're mad that you didn't merge with us so now we're going into your hub and kill the yields on some of your most important routes tactic.' Classic.

I'm not sure, did the press release mention if these new flights were "seasonal"

interesting move to say the least!


User currently offlineBA744PHX From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7904 times:

So considering the announcement that LAX, SFO and SEA area seasonal beginning May 6 and Phoenix service ending on May 5 also being announced as seasonal when first started will PHX be back once they come into their winter schedule and LAX, SFO and SEA wont be operating?

User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7861 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting PVD757 (Reply 21):
ah yes, the old 'we're mad that you didn't merge with us so now we're going into your hub and kill the yields on some of your most important routes tactic.' Classic.

I rather enjoy this game that FL is playing with YX. FL is going to dilute YX's revenue on these routes, and that is a beautiful thing.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineKnope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2912 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7861 times:



Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 22):
So considering the announcement that LAX, SFO and SEA area seasonal beginning May 6 and Phoenix service ending on May 5 also being announced as seasonal when first started will PHX be back once they come into their winter schedule and LAX, SFO and SEA wont be operating?

Things can certainly change between now and next winter (and they probably will...more than once) but if I had to guess they will bring MKE-PHX back, but not in September when the seasonal additionals are planned to end. The snowbird travel at MKE doesn't reall pick up until December,. A number of times, including this past fall, AirTran delayed the start or resumption of snowbird Florida flying several weeks from mid-fall until right before Christmas, almost certainly because of light advance bookings.

At this point nothing says that PHX will come back, nor is it a certainty that the seasonal summer additions won't be extended past 9/8. But given what we know so far, and what has happened in the past, the odds are for PHX to return for the last several weeks of 2008.


25 AAflyguy : With 137 aircraft in its fleet and a few more coming in '08, as one poster said, those FL planes have to fly somewhere. 87 717's and 50 73G's as of De
26 Knope2001 : Yes, SAN was served in the early-mid 90's. Most of the year it was a tag onto LAX, with once daily MKE-LAX-SAN and SAN-LAX-MKE. On weekends they usua
27 Congaboy : The northern suburbs of Chicago, mostly made up of upper middle class, should throw some traffic at Airtran due to price and not having to deal with
28 B752OS : BOS certainly is a seasonal city, I would put late April thorugh Mid October as the best time for people to visit who don't like the cold and snow. I
29 Cubsrule : I don't think they'll accomplish this, even if it's what they're after. I'm not convinced that this is true; YX also brings a lot of folks from south
30 TWA1985 : I live in McHenry County and I have seen several bilboards advertising YX and MIlwaukee and how it is a convienient alternative to O'Hare, but nothin
31 Post contains images Quickmover : Absolutely right. This plan makes alot more sense than trying to go up against AA in DFW or WN at MDW. FL made $52 mil profit last year, so they can'
32 FlyPNS1 : Compare these three cities: BNA Metro Population: 1.5 million (2006 Census est) BNA O+D Traffic: 7.8 million (12 months ending March 2007) MKE Metro
33 B752OS : Is there a website where you can find O&D statistics for certain airports? Where di you get this information?
34 Steeler83 : So they're pretty much seeking revenge on YX. That is never a wise thing to do, and I am sure they might pay for that later...
35 Post contains images MKENut : Why not MIA, JAX, MSY and SJU? Maybe they will try those as seasonal this fall.
36 Congaboy : I dunno...looking at the stats FlyPNS1 supplied, I wonder how much info FL stored into their memory banks after performing due dillegence on the YX a
37 Quickmover : It's not revenge. FL always wanted to grow into the MKE market. If they could have bought YX, things would have been easier without the competition,
38 TOLtommy : Well with their ownership stake in YX plus the new frequent flyer agreement, odds of a relaunch are highly unlikely.... Some call it desperate, other
39 SANFan : Oooops. Sorry SFOQQ', Trvlr and everyone; I was tired and didn't think out my quick and short answer at all. I knew YX had served SAN before and I al
40 Indy : There is nothing seasonable about it. Just like there is nothing seasonal about LAX. To me it is part of the airplane shell game that FL plays. They
41 Knope2001 : Always at the ready with reltively worthless trivia...
42 Mariner : Just as an FYI, Frontier's market share at DEN has grown since Southwest came to DEN. Then it was just over 20%. As of last week, it was just under (
43 Cubsrule : People vacation much more in Nashville than in Milwaukee or Cincinnati. Low fares mean more traffic, but that doesn't mean that MKE bleeds traffic to
44 NWAESC : I'm suprised no one's brought up possible traffic "spill" from MSN....
45 Indy : I also think that the southern part of the MKE market is vulnerable. People there can just about as easily go to ORD. You have about every nonstop op
46 TWA902fly : I would probably say that it happens for northern Chicago as well. And i would say that MKE usually has lower fares than ORD. At least me personally,
47 Indy : If that were the case wouldn't MKE have better o&d numbers? Their numbers seem to suggest that more people are going to ORD than people from Chicago
48 Cubsrule : I don't think the numbers suggest that at all. More cheap service means more people fly regardless of whether the airport bleeds passengers or not.[E
49 Indy : MKE is not an expensive airport to fly from. When I flew to south Florida it was competitive in price with IND. They aren't a CVG which is crippled by
50 Cubsrule : The argument seems to be that MKE bleeds passengers because it is high-fare (like you, I haven't had that experience, but others evidently have). If
51 FL787 : Whats your proof? Airtran obviously has done some studying before they started this.
52 Post contains links Mikey711MN : Well, they surprised me with DCA--and to lesser extents, BOS--but I have always thought that the west coast provided FL some opportunity to expand in
53 Indy : What will FL do if/when NW/DL merge and you see big schedule changes in places like IND and CVG? Will rebuild their IND ops without NW breathing down
54 Post contains links Knope2001 : One of AirTran's merger ptiches claimed MKE was an excessively high-fare airport by comparing MKE to Chicago, but the comparison was to Midway, not O'
55 MSYtristar : While seasonal service is better than nothing, it's really hard to build a client base if the nonstop service doesn't run year-round. FL will not real
56 Knope2001 : Here are the average fares from Midway, O'Hare, and MKE Mitchell for the 2nd quarter of 2007 Los Angeles MDW $171.09 ORD $232.20 MKE $177.87 San Franc
57 Indy : I doubt anybody drives Milwaukee to MDW to save $6 or $7.
58 MSYtristar : How can it be called smart when the best they can come up with is seasonal service in markets mostly already served by a hometown carrier with strong
59 MKE22 : The guy in the article said "it's a good start'. Good START? Whats next? I think DCA could be one of the next destinations they add.
60 Indy : For connections I'd say MKE-IND would come.
61 HeavyMx1 : Apparently their style of seasonal service end up working quite well for them- "AirTran Holdings Inc. cut its fourth quarter loss and increased its a
62 MSYtristar : Well, obviously, the profit would be significantly less if FL didn't have such a strong operation in ATL. I doubt the seasonal routes contributed muc
63 Post contains images Xbraniffone : Come on YX, kick their butts. This will be interesting to watch. It may become cheap for MSP travelers to connect in MKE.
64 Congaboy : It seems very experimental, this practice....and if that is the way you approach it, having the budget to give things a shot, okay. Good for them...t
65 MAh4546 : That route makes absolutely zero sense. I wouldn't hold my breath for that.
66 MKE22 : Yeah I have to agree. IND-MKE is already served by YX connect, and they can barely fill a small propeller plane on that route. Even with connections,
67 CitrusCritter : If they are unable to get DCA slots, they should offer MKE-IAD. YX pulled out of IAD when they got their DCA slots. While IAD and DCA overlap, IAD ha
68 Posti : Being from Wisconsin and living in Seattle I'm happy to see another direct flight between SEA and MKE, however... YX will always be my first choice on
69 Post contains images MKE22 : MKE has the room, but don't count on it, although I agree the more the merrier.
70 Mikey711MN : Ok, this is just my opinion subject to debate, but I'll take a crack at it. For sake of argument, let's assume the "traveling public" is divided up in
71 Mikey711MN : Oops. Good catch. I meant LGA. (was thinking slot-controlled, Eastern, money-making YX market) -Mike
72 Mikey711MN : Because I genuinely don't know and not to condescendingly respond, but has FL ever started a route with 3x daily only to relegate the service to seas
73 MKE22 : OK they did that, but I still think DCA could happen. But at the same time, they already have BWI.
74 Congaboy : Yea, point taken, Mike. They will cater to the leisure market by a large margin...there are, however, crazy people like me that try and save his/her
75 Mikey711MN : Right there with ya, man. Still an AirTran "frequent flyer" from my years in the Twin Cities, which I got for my multiple trips to the southeast that
76 WDBRR : I could not find anything in this post.....Is FL getting an additonal gate or two? are there plently of gate space or did NW vacate some gates?
77 Post contains links Mikey711MN : They have four already: Gates 22-25 at the end of the new Concourse C hammerhead. (see http://www.mitchellairport.com/terminal.html for the map) I su
78 Congaboy : i think this is where FL has a shot...and how many people in Appleton, Madison, GRB, etc are tired of paying that premium on RJs'? How many will the
79 Alias1024 : You mean like Mesa did when they looked into purchasing Aloha? If AirTran used any proprietary Midwest information, they are playing a VERY dangerous
80 Congaboy : No, I was not suggesting they unlawfully obtained competitve data. This was a hostile situation anyway...I was implying that they independently arriv
81 AirTran737 : That my friend is called business. You hurt your competitor where you can, and the best place to hurt someone is in their pocket book. Good for FL fo
82 Indy : The route makes absolute sense in the sense that IND-CVG with DL and IND-MKE wiht YX make sense. Those routes are there for connections and not o/d.
83 MAH4546 : While AirTran will be offering some obvious connections from Boston and LaGuardia, it very clear they are not going for connections here, they are go
84 Mke717spotter : I was waiting for FL to finally announce some more routes from MKE. Some very nice additions along with the newly announced LGA service. Honestly, I j
85 MAH4546 : We'll find out the answer to that by fall. In theory, it is simply because Milwaukee is not that big of a market.
86 Indy : Are you 100% certain of that? I'm not sure I agree with that. They've been looking for a hub going back to the MDW failure and the YX failure. Do you
87 MAH4546 : Yes, I think they gave up on the idea. I could be wrong, but I don't see this as anything more than a financially irresponsible slap at Midwest. Whil
88 Indy : Well believe me when I say part of me agrees with this statement. I'd say I'm split 50/50 on this. Part of me thinks they are honestly trying and the
89 Alias1024 : Business would be trying to make as much money as possible, not trying to trash someone else's yields because you are pissed at them.
90 Quickmover : Maybe one of the voids left could be NW giving up MKE and their stake in Midwest as a bargaining chip for govt approval? Like AA without DFW, DL with
91 Indy : In an ideal world this would be true. In the software world there is something called vaporware. It is basically a bs software application designed t
92 Post contains links HeavyMx1 : http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...ories/2008/01/29/airtran_0130.html "Also Tuesday, AirTran rolled out more expansion plans for Milwaukee, the ho
93 Post contains images FL1TPA : Hang out with an industry-wide cross section of route planners do we? That must be a fun Christmas party. Exactly! We have ATL, BWI, and MCO that pro
94 MAH4546 : No, just Frontier. I doubt that one large airline outside of Frontier and likely Spirit relies so heavily on one operation to bring in profits as Air
95 MAH4546 : Sounds like DFW 2.0.
96 Post contains images Indy : Or the IND 1.0 version with 30+ flights. They are releasing IND 2.0-lite this August.
97 MSYtristar : Not really. Those airlines don't have all their eggs in one basket.
98 EMB170 : Have to agree here. While FL may smile at the thought of putting the competitive screws to YX, it's gravy as opposed to anything else. FL has a LOT o
99 CitrusCritter : And yet they continue to turn a profit. FL has never been in BK which is not something many other airlines can say. Heck, unlike the beloved B6 or ev
100 MKENut : The focus in this thread is "how will YX react?" but what about NWA? FL will be taking away some of their business too. I see NWA cutting fares to MSP
101 Quickmover : Good point. NWA spent over $200 mil. to stop FL's move on YX. If FL is successful on these routes and add more, not only did FL save themselves $400+
102 Tango-Bravo : Indeed a more fitting name for Air Tran might be Air Transient in that we can safely predict that many of their routes that are "here today..." will
103 FlyPNS1 : I think many on this board over-react to the way FL adds and drops routes. The majority of Airtran's routes that get added and dropped are leisure rou
104 Mariner : I agree. And especially in these days of $90 oil, a lot of the "rules" are out the window. The surprise of Airtran is that they have survived - and d
105 Quickmover : Well put Mariner. What does any carrier gain by staying on a route only to lose money. FL has been bouncing back and forth on routes for years. The c
106 SkyexRamper : These flights are great news for us Non-Revers! I'll be trying to get out to SEA this summer and it will be nice to have a few choices.
107 MSYtristar : I mean whatever works for them, so be it. It's all about making money in the end, of course. But that doesn't take away from the fact that I have yet
108 HeavyMx1 : Their BWI strategy has seem to be doing quite well, They continue to add new destinations and are gaining more gates.
109 Quickmover : How many more gates are they taking at BWI? Whose gates are they taking over? thanks
110 Congaboy : i think this is ultimately where FL is going...NWA has a bulls-eye painted on their backs, and have for quite some time. They serve some pretty lucra
111 Mikey711MN : Agreed. There is an absolute ton of SE WI-Twin Cities traffic that, to this point, largely drives. The 1x Amtrak train is a non-factor. This is a mar
112 Quickmover : I wonder if MDW-MSP might be changed to MKE-MSP at some point? I know the market isn't exactly the same, but if the focus is moving to MKE, connection
113 Congaboy : Not really, at least not outside of ATL. But I think we are dealing with a company that sees itself in going outside the paradigm, actually prides it
114 Cubsrule : You can't prove a negative... and I would assume FL thought they had done "some studying" on MDW as well. Loads are horrid (30-40% O&D, some connecti
115 Mke717spotter : If that doesn't get NW's attention then I don't know what will.
116 Quickmover : Did they cut the frequency back? Might as well move the flight up to MKE with numbers like that. They might have better connecting opportunities up t
117 MSYtristar : It's hit or miss, leaning to miss on most days. Weekends are usually really, really light. The peak business timed flights do OK on some days...some
118 Cubsrule : Yes, which might mean that they go ahead and move CLT up to MKE as well. It does all right at MDW (somewhat better than MSP IIRC; I don't have number
119 Rumorboy : Role Of Milwaukee Grows, AirTran Says Jan 30, 2008 By Adrian Schofield/Aviation Daily AirTran's introduction of six new flights from Milwaukee reflect
120 Steeler83 : FL refers to BWI as a secondary hub. Could FL want to do the same with MKE? I know many on here have touted about the possibility of 50 flights and 5
121 Cubsrule : There won't be much. They don't feel that they can compete effectively with WN. Sorry, that should have read "more competition [to CLT] at MKE than a
122 Steeler83 : That's what I thought. WN is considerably larger there, as I believe BWI is their 3rd or 4th largest base... Is FL mostly looking to build a secondar
123 FL787 : I dont think that they started these flights just to lose money and get back at YX They did the only problem was they couldn't build up without the g
124 HeavyMx1 : 1/4 of FL's growth will be in BWI this year. Currently they are just behind MCO in size but will over take them this year, and should have about 8 ga
125 Cubsrule : They're not close to maxed out. They have exclusive use of 4 gates, and the city gates aren't close to being used to capacity. Here's what Knope post
126 Knope2001 : I'm not really sure what that would prove. Are you asserting that AirTran will not cut back MKE-LGA in the off season because it will be flown 3x, an
127 Post contains images Cubsrule : FL has created a product that ought to be very attractive to business travelers. They have decent onboard service, a J cabin, and a fantastic FF prog
128 Mikey711MN : Of course, your guess is as good as mine, and indeed you've shown that some limited precedent exists for multi-nonstop service to be pulled under the
129 Cubsrule : I don't think leisure travelers are exactly the loyal base he's thinking of...
130 Mikey711MN : No, but NY-based business travelers who may have developed a loyalty for FL given their LGA service were the ones I was thinking of. -Mike
131 Cubsrule : I don't know many business travelers in the northeast who travel exclusively to Florida and Atlanta.
132 Post contains links MAH4546 : And just imagine how much more money they would make if they could do some smart route planning and could once and for all stop having to spend the h
133 CitrusCritter : " target=_blank>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=home I can imagine how their profits might look if they flew empty planes for part of the yea
134 MAH4546 : What routes do well, though? It's "experiment" after "experiment" failed and failed experiment. FLL-FNT? EWR-MDW? DFW-LAX? MLI-LAS? DTW-BWI? FLL-DCA?
135 CitrusCritter : We're not debating that. We're debating whether there is merit to routes being "seasonal" even if other airlines do not treat them as seasonly. I thi
136 MAH4546 : None of the route I mentioned, though, were seasonal routes sans FLL-FNT. They were simply poor performers and discontinued, most quite quickly. I do
137 Knope2001 : There is definitely a good deal of NY-Florida business traffic mixed in with the high volume of leisure travelers. However the same problem in buildi
138 Post contains images MAH4546 :
139 CitrusCritter : What is wrong with pulling a poor performing route? I don't look at any of those routes and say "Gee, this was a dumb route. Who came up with this cr
140 MAH4546 : There is nothing wrong with it. However, two points to be made: 1) Routes rarely perform well at launch. It often can take a year for a new airline t
141 Post contains links Mariner : They were as close to profit as many. The airline world changed a lot last quarter when oil zoomed from $72 bbl to nearly $100 bbl. Southwest CEO Kel
142 MAH4546 : And imagine how much better they could be doing if they had smarter route planning in place.
143 Mariner : I tend to deal with what is - not what might be or might have been. If we play that game, imagine how much better United might have been doing if the
144 MAH4546 : I see what you are saying, but route planning is continuous. AirTran can improve their route planning. They can do a better job at it. They can make
145 Post contains images Steeler83 : Perhaps they should hire me.
146 Mariner : A lot of airlines get it wrong. I recall Delta dismantling all the LAX-Mexico routes after they acquired Western. And later they tried to put them ba
147 Post contains images Mikey711MN : I can see the press release already... "AirTran opens new hub at Pittsburgh, launches 24 new nonstops" -Mike
148 Post contains images Steeler83 : Yeah, I see that in my dreams, then I am run over by a UA baggage handler, which of course is the point where I wake up Nah, I would probably slowly
149 Post contains images Zippyjet : We've had a BWI-MKE-LAS service for close to a year and it's doing excellent recession not withstanding! I say throw in MIA as another destination fro
150 SANFan : The closest thing to focus city status would be with WN (as one of their Top-Ten stations) although I can't say I've ever really heard the term used
151 Gr8SlvrFlt : I'd wager your average traveler, whether for leisure or business or VFR, is going to look for the best rates and schedules for when they want to go. I
152 Post contains images MKENut : Now there's a novel idea!
153 EVA777SEA : How would you not be able to connect from MKE to SEA? You could do it on F9, AA, UA, and NW among others. It also has the YX flight that is nonstop i
154 FlyPNS1 : Because FL pursues a lot of leisure routes that are outside of its core network and these routes have a high likelihood of failure. Most of the legac
155 Cubsrule : Most of FL's notable failures, such as DFW and MDW, were attempts to establish a presence on business routes. Source? But this in itself represents a
156 Steeler83 : Darn, I am just trying to think of a good western location that would probably give FL a chance to become a true east-west LLC. All of their focus is
157 Mariner : I could argue a case for that. Southwest CEO Kelly staked his version of the business model on it - DEN can't be allowed to fail. mariner
158 CitrusCritter : Look at three former airline hubs: COS, SJC, RNO, as well as growth opportunities at ONT. Additionally, I'd throw out BOI, but I fear WN probably ser
159 Cubsrule : Why do what everyone else does when you can (potentially) do something different? Is it simply that FL doesn't see that "different" opportunity?
160 Steeler83 : Thanks Mariner! That seems to be the case everywhere: lack of innovation and outside-the-box thinking...
161 Mariner : I don't know what Airtran wants to do, but I could agree with that statement. mariner
162 CitrusCritter : I'm not sure I quite understand what you're getting at. I don't think FL sees a good western hub, nor are they a well known product out west. It made
163 Post contains images Mikey711MN : Interesting statement(s). Yet when FL utilizes "seasonal" routes by constantly evaluating and adjusting their schedule and route management, which is
164 Cubsrule : It seemed for a time that FL was going to focus on smaller, O&D-centered focus cities, while growing ATL as appropriate. That's really what BWI is, a
165 Steeler83 : That is true. This seems to be the trend anymore within the airline industry anyway, leaning away from the hub-and-spoke system and going towards mor
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AirTran Adds MKE-LGA 3X Daily posted Wed Jan 23 2008 04:31:21 by AirTran737
Airtran Adds LAS-MKE, BMI, MLI posted Wed Apr 11 2007 19:54:24 by Vivavegas
AirTran Adds New Flights From BWI & MDW posted Tue Feb 21 2006 14:16:19 by Gr8SlvrFlt
AirTran Adding 2 New Destinations From IND posted Tue Jan 31 2006 12:33:38 by Indy
DL Adds 5 More Destinations From MCO posted Fri Jan 20 2006 04:19:18 by OttoPylit
AirTran Pulls MCO-SAN; MKE-PHX; LGA-TPA/DAB posted Sun Jan 27 2008 17:33:43 by MAH4546
New FL Routes From MKE? posted Sat Nov 17 2007 21:50:18 by MKE22
Frontier Adds Frequencies From Hub, Makes Changes posted Thu Nov 8 2007 13:33:33 by Ytib
Jet2 Announce 8 New Destinations From LBA posted Wed Sep 12 2007 18:35:24 by Capital146
LO Adds HAJ From WAW posted Tue Sep 11 2007 09:17:32 by HT