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Diversion Due Pilot Nervous Breakdown  
User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 923 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 18857 times:

Here is an unusual story, that CBC is running... AC flight to LHR diverts to Shannon after co-pilot starts "acting strange" and "talking to himself". Apparently after landing in Shannon he was removed from the cockpit by a passenger was also a member of the armed forces (I am picturung large and burly?), and hospitalized in the local psychiatric unit.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/01/29/aircanada-copilot.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...on-after-midair-scare-1276356.html

the story broadcast on the radio referred to is as a "nervous breakdown"...

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAuroraLives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18784 times:



Quoting YYZYYT (Thread starter):
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...on-after-midair-scare-1276356.html

From the above article:
Shirley Mah, spokeswoman for the state-owned airline, did not return phone calls on the incident yesterday.

I think it was just a reaction to realizing that the privatization of several years ago was just a myth  Smile


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21414 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18679 times:

My guess is that he didn't have a "breakdown" but was actually on meds and forgot to take them. There are a lot of people in critical positions with mental problems and instead of disqualifying them, we medicate them and send them on their way to be "fair" to them. Unless this was a particularly hairy flight, people don't just breakdown completely out of the blue. It's not like TV or movies. There are warning signs and there's a spiral toward depression...


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineATCtower From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 529 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 18551 times:



Quoting YYZYYT (Thread starter):
Here is an unusual story, that CBC is running... AC flight to LHR diverts to Shannon after co-pilot starts "acting strange" and "talking to himself". Apparently after landing in Shannon he was removed from the cockpit by a passenger was also a member of the armed forces (I am picturung large and burly?), and hospitalized in the local psychiatric unit.

I am unaware of credibility issues with CBC, but in the US, this sounds a lot like a first dry run of a story trying to get ratings. I am mostly skeptical as to why a passenger (size irrelevant) would be removing a pilot from the flight deck, no matter the situation with this. Sounds like an informal dry run to me.
my  twocents 



By reading the above post you waive all rights to be offended. If you do not like what you read, forget it.
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4199 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18466 times:

I think it is fair to say that we don't know all of the facts about this event, but it is safe to say its a little weird. I don't know why a passenger would be calling out an 'unstable' FO either... and why this FO was having a breakdown of any sort is a little odd too. Oh well - at least everybody got down safely.


None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18336 times:



Quoting ATCtower (Reply 3):
I am unaware of credibility issues with CBC, but in the US, this sounds a lot like a first dry run of a story trying to get ratings. I am mostly skeptical as to why a passenger (size irrelevant) would be removing a pilot from the flight deck, no matter the situation with this. Sounds like an informal dry run to me.

I take your point, it is always a question of figuring out what detaiuls can be relied upon, and whic are jsut hype.

CBC is quite credible, actually, equivalent to your PBS (is it still called that?). Just compare the headlines from the two stories...

There appears to be confirmation from the airport authority that flight diverted due to FO illness, and that he was admitted to a psychiatric unit. I discount somewhat the apparent "confirmation" from AC that the flight made an "emergency landing"...


User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 903 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18297 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
My guess is that he didn't have a "breakdown" but was actually on meds and forgot to take them. There are a lot of people in critical positions with mental problems and instead of disqualifying them, we medicate them and send them on their way to be "fair" to them. Unless this was a particularly hairy flight, people don't just breakdown completely out of the blue. It's not like TV or movies. There are warning signs and there's a spiral toward depression...

Good post. I did not know that pilots on Prozac were allowed to fly.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineCuriousFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 18283 times:

There was a thread about this earlier this morning, but it seems to have been deleted.

Can't we discuss the psychological problems of pilots? I was suggesting that they are maybe under a lot of stress nowadays with all the economical pressure that falls on them, AC was bankrupt a few years ago...

[Edited 2008-01-29 10:15:39]

User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1022 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18019 times:

While it is true that there are a lot of people who are taking something to assist normal mental function, normally missing a dose does not by itself create an unstable person. Those that are that unstable are unlikely to be flying as a pilot.

It is also true that people do sometimes "snap" from pressure, and get weird without warning. Oftentimes it is due to family or life issues and not just the job (although having a stressful job does not help).

Should someone snap it does in fact make sense that the flight crew could ask an appropriate passenger to assist them.

Such a passenger would have to have a special set of qualifications that matched the situation - and it would not be that unusual for such a passenger to be a military person (as the military often deals with stress and people who do snap).

Without knowing a lot more details we cannot really comment on if this was appropriate or not - but I do not automatically rule out that it was not appropriate.

The first thought I had with the military reference was perhaps this was a medical trained person - or perhaps a drill Sargent or unit commander (NCO or Officer). If the co-pilot had a military background they would likely still respond to an appropriate military authority figure; especially, if they had just lost their way mentally and was looking for some something they could mentally hang onto.


User currently offlineYYZA330 From Canada, joined May 2006, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17956 times:

Could be a Seizures. Hope he's doing well and AC is looking after him.

User currently offlineBramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17907 times:

This was not a dry run. Its being reported in papers here. Apparently tthe cabin crew got the assistance of the off-duty military personnel to "restrain" the F/O. I believe that the word restrain may be over dramatic,this paper is fond of dramatic headlines.

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...on-after-midair-scare-1276356.html


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17743 times:



Quoting YYZA330 (Reply 9):
Could be a Seizures. Hope he's doing well and AC is looking after him.

 checkmark  I can agree with that one.

I honestly don't see ANY company (not saying they even knew) let a pilot fly if they are unstable by just letting them take meds. Way too risky. Does the doc the prescribed them even know he's a pilot? Who knows. All in all, I would like to hear the REAL full story.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1965 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17541 times:



Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 6):
Good post. I did not know that pilots on Prozac were allowed to fly.

I believe he may have been mistaken, as far as I am awear if someone is taking meds for a mental issue he can not fly (at least commercially) he will not be given a Cat. 1 medical.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17483 times:

Can't help but feel sorry for the guy. Who knows what set this off. He could have had a whole host of personal problems prior to takeoff which lead to this. I hope he is being well looked after, and the fellow crew, and official did not make the ordeal any more unpleasent for the pilot.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26481 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17384 times:



Quoting Sevenair (Reply 13):
Can't help but feel sorry for the guy. Who knows what set this off. He could have had a whole host of personal problems prior to takeoff which lead to this. I hope he is being well looked after, and the fellow crew, and official did not make the ordeal any more unpleasent for the pilot.

 thumbsup   thumbsup  Totally agree as I posted on the Irish threads. You never know what causes this. Hope he gets better soon .



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineTonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1933 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17366 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
My guess is that he didn't have a "breakdown" but was actually on meds and forgot to take them. There are a lot of people in critical positions with mental problems and instead of disqualifying them, we medicate them and send them on their way to be "fair" to them. Unless this was a particularly hairy flight, people don't just breakdown completely out of the blue. It's not like TV or movies. There are warning signs and there's a spiral toward depression...

Well if the FO was on meds, they wouldn't have been given unless they were prescribed to treat a particular underlying condition. Also, it seems highly unlikely that a FO on any such medication would be let fly for the reasons reported above. Anyway, SNN is my local airport so that is just my  twocents . Here is a link to the news story on the RTE website (Irelands National Broadcaster) so it is not just a sensationalist story.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0129/shannon.html



Next Flights: 18/04/14 QF1011 MEL-HBA; 21/04/14 JQ712 HBA-MEL
User currently offlineEireRock From Ireland, joined Nov 2007, 301 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17331 times:



Quoting Sevenair (Reply 13):
Can't help but feel sorry for the guy. Who knows what set this off. He could have had a whole host of personal problems prior to takeoff which lead to this. I hope he is being well looked after, and the fellow crew, and official did not make the ordeal any more unpleasent for the pilot.

Agreed, nobody knows the extent of this guys problems and at the end of the day the aircraft landed safely, there obviously wasn't any violent aircraft movements as the pax would have noticed and the media would get wind of this.

Hope he gets the best of care and is able to fly home soon to his family and recover.


User currently offlineTonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1933 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17289 times:
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Quoting EireRock (Reply 16):
Agreed, nobody knows the extent of this guys problems and at the end of the day the aircraft landed safely, there obviously wasn't any violent aircraft movements as the pax would have noticed and the media would get wind of this.

Hope he gets the best of care and is able to fly home soon to his family and recover.

Here here. You wouldn't wish this on anyone & it is just unfortunate for this poor guy that it happened to him while doing a high profile job that this incident has gotten so much attention. This happens every day to people all over the world in all different professions. My grandfather was in a restaurant once & the head waiter broke down crying in the middle of it all, saying "I can't do it anyore" or something along those lines. All anyone can say & do at this stage is wish him well & hopefully, he will be able to get back on his feet flying again. Someone mentioned on the Irish thread that AC have a very good employee care program so hopefully, this will serve hime well.



Next Flights: 18/04/14 QF1011 MEL-HBA; 21/04/14 JQ712 HBA-MEL
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5341 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17226 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
but was actually on meds and forgot to take them. There are a lot of people in critical positions with mental problems and instead of disqualifying them, we medicate them and send them on their way to be "fair" to them



Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 6):
I did not know that pilots on Prozac were allowed to fly.



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 12):
as far as I am awear if someone is taking meds for a mental issue he can not fly (at least commercially) he will not be given a Cat. 1 medical.

Yeah, almost all of 'these' types of meds are disqualifying as far as any kind of medical.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 903 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17064 times:



Quoting 2175301 (Reply 8):
While it is true that there are a lot of people who are taking something to assist normal mental function, normally missing a dose does not by itself create an unstable person. Those that are that unstable are unlikely to be flying as a pilot.



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 12):
s far as I am awear if someone is taking meds for a mental issue he can not fly (at least commercially) he will not be given a Cat. 1 medical.



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 18):
'these' types of meds are disqualifying as far as any kind of medical.

Thanks, that makes us flying passengers feel better. But isn't it possible (and I am not referring to this copilot) that a pilot can lie about his or her profession, gets the medicine (internet or whatever means) in order to pass the meds. I'd say it is.

The Egyptair Flight 990 that crashed in to the Atlantic back in 1999, was blamed on the relief pilot who was believed to be severely depressed. In any case, I too hope this AC F/O gets better.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5341 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17020 times:



Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 19):
But isn't it possible (and I am not referring to this copilot) that a pilot can lie about his or her profession, gets the medicine (internet or whatever means) in order to pass the meds. I'd say it is.

Yes. Much of the medical exam relies on the honesty of the pilot. It's tempting (and it was for me), not to mention certain meds and conditions. The risk is of course, that if it's discovered later that you lied about your meds and/or history, you'll have a much tougher time getting your license back if it's revoked. Now, the AME can request access to any of your medical records, at any time. You don't have to give authorization of course, but I assume denial is a sure way of a license being revoked.

Always possible to lie, and then get the meds from a online Canadian pharmacy .. but most professional pilots probably don't want that risk. I'm sure it happens though.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 16964 times:

What will AC do? Fire him? Sucks for him.

Would he qualify for some sort of disability, or will he be out on the street? I hope the former is the case, lest AC convince other pilots to hide any psychiatric problems for financial reasons.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
My guess is that he didn't have a "breakdown" but was actually on meds and forgot to take them. There are a lot of people in critical positions with mental problems and instead of disqualifying them, we medicate them and send them on their way to be "fair" to them. Unless this was a particularly hairy flight, people don't just breakdown completely out of the blue. It's not like TV or movies. There are warning signs and there's a spiral toward depression...

You're right that this does not sound like depression. It also does not sound like withdrawal from an antidepressant. If he was coming off meds, then my uneducated guess would be something like a mood stabilizer/antipsychotic or an anxiolytic (like a benzo).

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 6):
Good post. I did not know that pilots on Prozac were allowed to fly.

It's crazy, but there's a blanket ban, at least in the US. Prozac is indicated for things like PMS that are not a problem. However this is probably better left to another thread.

However, regarding the suggestion that vitamin-P was involved: Prozac has a really long half life (days to weeks; such that it can be dosed weekly). Forgetting it will not produce any noticeable effects for many days. Other SSRIs can be horribly physically addictive.

Quoting YYZA330 (Reply 9):
Could be a Seizures. Hope he's doing well and AC is looking after him.

You generally don't send someone with seizures to the psych ward.


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 16887 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 21):
What will AC do? Fire him? Sucks for him.

I don't think they can. If he is/fell ill, he cannot be punished for that unless self-inflicted.

Already well publicized here and online, this would not go unnoticed if he were let go/disciplined.


User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 16252 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 21):
What will AC do? Fire him? Sucks for him.

He will probably end up being a fleet specialist, or other office job. AC is very good about giving pilots who failed medicals good jobs.




Liam spin 


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1965 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 15109 times:



Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 19):
Thanks, that makes us flying passengers feel better. But isn't it possible (and I am not referring to this copilot) that a pilot can lie about his or her profession, gets the medicine (internet or whatever means) in order to pass the meds. I'd say it is.

Well they always can, however the penalties would be very great for doing so. It will be interesting to find out what happens.



Keep the shinny side up!
25 Post contains links YYZYYT : Now they have an eyewitness report from a passenger who say that 1 hour out of LHR they called for a doctor, and then dragged the FO out of the cockp
26 Jimbobjoe : I can't agree. As it was said before, people on SSRI's are going to be fairly stable, with or without them. But being off of them obviously doesn't m
27 ContnlEliteCMH : I take a drug to combat bipolar type II. It summarily disqualifies me from a medical certificate and I have long thought that this is a bit backward.
28 Analog : Perhaps, but they can fire him for failing the legal qualifications for his job. No medical: out the door. 2 years? Unless you're 58, that's not that
29 Bond007 : What about those with high-level depression, not taking drugs? Jimbo
30 Jimbobjoe : I used the term "low-level depression" to describe a depressive state that would infrequently or never interfere with normal activities. It's not a s
31 AR385 : I have been on SSRI's for ten years now, and when for a variety of reasons I've had to stop taking them, it's basically hell. And it happens after th
32 Tangowhisky : You are right. I realize that no system is 100% safe, but the current system for screening pilots for mental illness seems lacking compared to the ph
33 Max Q : Yes, It is a real contradiction and says a lot about the attitude of the FAA that, as a commercial pilot you are not allowed to take any kind of anti
34 Sixtyseven : i have been guilty of passing what i thought was good info that never materialized. i felt terrible after 'experts' disproved my prognostications. in
35 Flybyguy : It's not in the best interests of the airline to associate themselves with him. If Canadian aviation rules are similar to that of the U.S. I think th
36 SixtySeven : serious jail time. for a mental condition. and britney spears, keifer sutherland should get what????? look over your shoulder there princess cuz if yo
37 Scrumpy492003 : Latest from The Globe and Mail newspaper. "TU THANH HA AND BRODIE FENLON From Wednesday's Globe and Mail January 29, 2008 at 10:38 PM EST Yelling, cry
38 SixtySeven : humans are problematic. the true problem is a bunch of pussy humans are armed with cameras. they take pictures (and quotes) of people they wish they c
39 Tonymctigue : Generally, this story is only being skimmed over in the press here & there has been no mention of such a disturbance & believe me, we have enough cra
40 Shamrock604 : Yes, generally it is being reported here fairly sensitively without the hysterics. Some of the usual suspect newspapers may have taken some "artistic
41 EDICHC : Absolutely impossible to justify these quasi-diagnoses without a thorough psychological assessment, and account of medical history. Nobody on this fo
42 757767lover : Yes i saw that link as well and yes i cannot find it anywere spooky
43 LTBEWR : It is sad that this co-pilot had some kind of mental health problem while he was doing his duty. Fortunately, the captain did what he was trained to d
44 Soon7x7 : Consider this all to real scenario...Pilot flying wall to wall duty time, Good hardworking husband, climbs into the cockpit even though he's got a cas
45 Rikkus67 : ContnlEliteCMH Welcome to my respected users list! Thankyou for your most honest account of your bipolar type II. It is only through education that pe
46 Olympus69 : I have a story that is somewhat relevant to this discussion, though its relevance is diminished by the fact that it occurred 50 years ago. A senior TC
47 Tangowhisky : Olympus69, you have touched on an important point. A pilot does not need to be screaming and shouting that there is something ill about this person. L
48 Post contains links Abrelosojos : It seems like AC handled the situation the best it could (again). What is up with passengers and crews on AC flights having nervous breakdowns? -A. PS
49 Analog : Relax. The idea of depression and withdrawal from depression meds was brought up and quickly shot down. The rest of the related discussion was more a
50 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : I had to think of this one, a JAL DC8 that ditched in Tokyo Bay in 1982 with 24 casualties, that was the result of a pilot breakdown. Must happen more
51 Hmmmm... : I look at this from a different angle. The co-pilot was chanting about God. Could the story have been reported as "God" and not "Allah"? He was report
52 Scrumpy492003 : Tongue in cheek !! Does this now mean that the 767 is certified for single pilot operations? Peter
53 YYZA330 : In a post 9/11 world? Sure! why not? He's a pilot so everyone thinks worst case. He "could have had" his first ever seizure on the job? I hope he's g
54 Tangowhisky : Hmmmmmm......
55 Profpete : if he was previously healthy, it could be lots of things - seizure, brain tumor or viral encephalities, for instance. lets hope he makes a good recove
56 Arrow : Funny, an entire thread on this, with a large number of willing and informed participants making a lot of interesting comments -- and all based on th
57 ZBBYLW : Hmmmm.... (no pun intended) this brings up a good issue. While I know there certainly are a few hard core Christans that could have had a religious n
58 Bongodog1964 : Well done the Daily Mail, its report of the incident states that the plane was a 767, but the photo inset in the article shows an A330
59 HAWK21M : Looks like stress & Anxiety related attack. Is there a check for this in Pre flight medicals? regds MEL.
60 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : Reports here in Austria say that he suddenly became "afraid/fear of flying", removed his shoes etc. There was a very good "Spiegel-Reportage" about a
61 Tangowhisky : I spoke to a few pilot friends of mine who are all captains at major carriers. They are middle aged like me, and have seen quite a bit. Most can not b
62 HAWK21M : The doubt would be are these guys mentally tuned to handle a crisis situation. What prevents a F/O from going bersek.Does the routine medicals cover
63 YYZA330 : Some wouldn't, others would find out from their friends at AC, or may even work there. For the record, I didn't hear the media mantion "seizure", it
64 Arrow : "He's crazy" is a little crude, but it's just as much a medical issue as anything else. Whatever the reasons turn out to be, there will be a medical
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