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DL Mainline In The Northeast  
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3041 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 6 months 6 days ago) and read 4062 times:

As of today, there are several major northeast cities without mainline(ALB,PVD,SYR,MHT) All of these cities could support a daily maddog or 738. While DL continues to reduce service to these cities, they are beefing things up in BDL,BUF, and ROC. There are several small cities in the south that have daily 752/738 service, when alot of those a/c should be transfered up here. Does anyone know if any of those cities will get mainline back?


E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 307 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4035 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
There are several small cities in the south that have daily 752/738 service

DL has actually been cutting back in the South too. Name the cities you are referring to and we can discuss them.
Is DAB one you are referring to? If so, that is only for race weeks and then back to the norm. Oh, and DAB is losing their LGA flight from both DL and FL.

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
when alot of those a/c should be transfered up here.

What makes you say that the aircraft would be of better use in the Northeast? When you have a scarcity of suitable mainline aircraft, shouldn't the ones you have be sent to locations where you can make the most money? This is not the South or the Northeast cities you mention, unfortunately.

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
As of today, there are several major northeast cities without mainline(ALB,PVD,SYR,MHT) All of these cities could support a daily maddog or 738.

I'll give you PVD for sure and maybe SYR. BUT...DL does not have the spare mainline aircraft to send them to the cities you mentioned. When DL gets the new 737s you just might see them. Until then the CRJ and CR7 will have to do. It could be worse...How would you like to be in a city with a cachement area of 525,000 and have ZERO air service? If you want to talk about maximized fleet usage, the 752s shouldn't be heading to the cities you mentioned. Put winglets on them and send them to Europe, Hawaii or Latin America. The 738s perform best on longer hauls...transcons, Caribbean, Latin America, etc.


User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3963 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
There are several small cities in the south that have daily 752/738 service, when alot of those a/c should be transfered up here. Does anyone know if any of those cities will get mainline back?

I know where you're coming from, but alas, it's 2008, and you'll just not see the olden days of 757's plying runways in cities like PVD, PWM, BGR anymore. But know that the same is happening all over. It's not just a scarcity of aircraft for carriers like DL, it's intentional reinvestment of resources to more profitable use. I just dont see the legacies returning any large quantity of Boeing/Airbi sized aircraft to many of the markets that are now RJ'ed to the max - not at least for a long time.

Also, I believe that DL's 73G's are destined for Latin and Carribb routes and won't have much to do with any domestic runs as being discussed here. Bummer.



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3915 times:

Not sure if this is what he is referring to, but PNS sees the 738, 757, MD88, CR7, and CR2.

User currently offlinePilotboi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2366 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3857 times:



Quoting Rookinla (Reply 1):
Oh, and DAB is losing their LGA flight from both DL and FL.

Go ahead, rub it in.  Yeah sure

 Wink


User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3836 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 3):
Not sure if this is what he is referring to, but PNS sees the 738, 757, MD88, CR7, and CR2.

PNS is an interesting example. And SAV sees still multiple 757's, etc. Those are just DL's bread and butter, home fried-chicken southern routes, have been for decades, and they always seem to do extremely well with them thanks to an almost blindly loyal patronage (especially in SAV, CHS). They've been able to make money on those routes with high frequencies and big aircraft, when until the last decade, no one else could make a dime even on regional aircraft. PNS though I imagine has some military contracts tied to it. It wasn't really a large DL city until the early 90's - funny - about the same time that PVD suddenly became a nice little destination with some 57's landing there.



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2671 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

On the subject of SYR, it's a complete 180 from just a couple of years ago, when we maintained several dailies (4x, IIRC, with no CRJs, either) to ATL with MD88s. BUF/ROC/ALB and a few other cities in the NE lost all mainline DL service, and ours was kept due to yields and loads. Now, all the aforementioned cities (except ALB) have gotten their MD80s/737s back, and even get CR9s with F. SYR now has 4 daily CRJs, and 1 daily CR7. We do, however, have JFK service, but so do the other cities. Why the about face, DL?

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3753 times:



Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 6):
Now, all the aforementioned cities (except ALB) have gotten their MD80s/737s back, and even get CR9s with F. SYR now has 4 daily CRJs, and 1 daily CR7. We do, however, have JFK service, but so do the other cities. Why the about face, DL?

BUF and ROC have Airtran, so DL uses bigger metal to compete. SYR, ALB and PVD don't have FL, so DL has less competition and sends RJ's only to pluck out the highest yielding traffic. Keep in mind that DL use to send a lot of mainline traffic to these Northeastern destinations simply to shuttle a lot of people through ATL to Florida. But DL has slowly extracted themselves from that line of business, so they don't need as much capacity in those markets.

On a side note, PNS has lost its 757's, but still gets MD88's and will get the 738 again.


User currently offlineJohn From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3728 times:

Delta is all RJ at PVD now?? Geesh....that's ridiculous!

User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 307 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3718 times:



Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 4):
Go ahead, rub it in.

Not rubbing it in...DAB is my second home. I hate to see it happen!


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22741 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3542 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 5):
Those are just DL's bread and butter, home fried-chicken southern routes, have been for decades, and they always seem to do extremely well with them thanks to an almost blindly loyal patronage (especially in SAV, CHS).

Other things being equal, the shorter distance from ATL helps too.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3497 times:



Quoting John (Reply 8):
Delta is all RJ at PVD now?? Geesh....that's ridiculous!

well good thing at least is that the april and summer sched has been updated and a few of the ATL CR2 get upgraded to CR7s, hopefully at least CR9s will be next

Id like to see all the CR2's gone from PVD with the exception of JFK and midday CVG flights. I really dont think thats asking too much seeing how those all used to be 757s.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineKstateinALB From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 748 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3370 times:



Quoting Rookinla (Reply 1):
When DL gets the new 737s you just might see them

Possibility, but IMO, I think its CR7's and CR9's, or even a possible MD88, for the near future. Personally, the ATL and CVG flights are a little too expensive to connect through as well, so a drop in traffic is a possibility.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 7):
SYR, ALB and PVD don't have FL, so DL has less competition and sends RJ's only to pluck out the highest yielding traffic

You hit the nail on the head FlyPNS, having FL will bring DL in to compete.

Lets say FL decides to come to ALB, PVD, SYR

FL could put 2x or 3x daily to ATL to start out with on 717 a/c, or even a 737.

DL sees a new competitor, and will upgrade the flights to mainline a/c to keep passengers from going through ATL to connect on FL. MD88 and 738 would come to those respective cities, even a 757 on the PVD flights.

It's all about beating your competitor.



ALB, DTW, ORD, MDW, MCI, JFK, LGA, LHR, MAD, MSP, IAD, DCA, MCO, ATL, CVG, TUL, MHK, PHL, PIT, DFW, DAL, CLT, IND, AUS,
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3355 times:



Quoting KstateinALB (Reply 12):
Lets say FL decides to come to ALB, PVD, SYR

FL could put 2x or 3x daily to ATL to start out with on 717 a/c, or even a 737.

DL sees a new competitor, and will upgrade the flights to mainline a/c to keep passengers from going through ATL to connect on FL. MD88 and 738 would come to those respective cities, even a 757 on the PVD flights.

It's all about beating your competitor.

Then FL pulls out and you are back to RJ's

I hope FL expands to those cities ( as one in ATL who cant afford to fly to PVD anymore)

Thankfully i dont think DL has the resources to visciously repond like they used to. Also in PVD's case i dont think DL would care, since they are more concerned with BOS. The only place DL might get viscious to try and get FL to leave would be is if FL started BDL.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3412 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

with DL's focus on BOS, I now wonder how vigorously DL would respond to a FL PVD entry. I'd expect a DL response, but not to the level they might have done a year or so ago.

Either way, PVD could sure use FLs new service and lower ATL fares.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3275 times:



Quoting PVD757 (Reply 14):
Also in PVD's case i dont think DL would care, since they are more concerned with BOS.

It could be argued that they don't much care about Boston, either. Nothing new of substance has been added for service at Logan by Delta, either in terms of new flights or bigger aircraft. Some isolated instances might exist to the contrary, but compare the lift out of Logan earlier this decade to now and you'll see the decline.


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3041 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3222 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 3):
Not sure if this is what he is referring to, but PNS sees the 738, 757, MD88, CR7, and CR2.

'
exactly my point

Quoting KstateinALB (Reply 12):
It's all about beating your competitor.

so the reason is that there are a lot of several small cities in the south and they have FL, and thats why they get 757 or mulitple mainliners ?

EX., RIC, PNS, SAV, CHS, etc..

I mean ALB is close to PHL like SAV is to ATL and we don't get big mainline jets...



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days ago) and read 3203 times:



Quoting USAirALB (Reply 16):

EX., RIC, PNS, SAV, CHS, etc..

Richmond has double the population of Albany, a little more population than Providence, a bigger population than Syracuse, and nearly double the population of Manchester.

RIC also serves a huge amount of DL frequent fliers, which often means upgrade lists in upwards of 20-30 people on weekdays.

Not only that, but RIC has Airtran competing directly with them on RIC-ATL and RIC-MCO.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineAfitch7881 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3086 times:

Richmond is not bigger than Providence in metro size and considering Manchester has most of northern Mass to help them, I wouldn't don't see RIC being bigger than MHT either.

User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3075 times:



Quoting Afitch7881 (Reply 18):
I wouldn't don't see RIC being bigger than MHT either.

RIC is bigger than MHT. According to the 2000 US Census, RIC is the 76th most populated urban area in the nation, that doesn't include surrounding suburbs there, which are extensive. MHT itself doesn't even rank in the top 150, so I doubt even the inclusion of suburbs/areas closer to MHT than BOS would make it a larger area.



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineUajetblast1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3047 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 5):


Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 3):
Not sure if this is what he is referring to, but PNS sees the 738, 757, MD88, CR7, and CR2.

PNS is an interesting example. And SAV sees still multiple 757's, etc. Those are just DL's bread and butter, home fried-chicken southern routes, have been for decades, and they always seem to do extremely well with them thanks to an almost blindly loyal patronage

BHM was also a very big Delta city. Delta had between 6-8 757 daily on the short 25 minute hop over to ATL. With mainline to several other city like Jackson MS, CVG, and MOB


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8894 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3036 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 19):
RIC is bigger than MHT. According to the 2000 US Census, RIC is the 76th most populated urban area in the nation, that doesn't include surrounding suburbs there, which are extensive. MHT itself doesn't even rank in the top 150, so I doubt even the inclusion of suburbs/areas closer to MHT than BOS would make it a larger area.

Manchester, NH's MSA does not include the Merrimack Valley of Massachusetts (it extends as far south as the Mass state line but does not cross over) - throw in the area that is convinient to MHT (within 45 minutes or so, so basically the stretch from about Chelmsford all the way down river to Haverhill, so you get Chelmsford, Lowell, Dracut, Billerica, Tewksbury, Andover, Methuen, North Andover, Lawrence, Haverhill and we'll include Wilmington since that's just as easy since it's right on I-93 south of Andover) and that adds about 600,000 people to the metro area, bumping it up to just a hair above a million. Not a whole lot smaller (by about 150,000) than Richmond.

The big thing with MHT is it's location. Out of RIC, the closest airports you have are in Washington (100+ miles away and then there's Beltway traffic), PHF (68 miles away and not a large airport) and ORF (91 miles away and again, not a huge airport). With Manchester, you're 50 miles away from BOS, so an hour's drive down the freeway which isn't all too shabby. You throw in those Merrimack Valley towns, which sit pretty much smack in the middle between BOS and MHT, and you're going to have a good amount of leakage to the much larger BOS - much more flights to choose from, plenty of LCC flights due to B6 and FL having large operations there, plenty of non-stops, a lot more mainline planes, etc.

Also, with regards to MHT and DL, there are not a whole lot of DL FFers up in MHT. They fly to CVG and ATL out of MHT, so they're fine if you're heading out west or to the South, but if you have to travel in the Northeast, good luck. You'll find plenty of US FFers out of MHT, who appeal to that type of traveler quite heavily - PHL and CLT can get you a lot of places, plus they have plenty of flights to BOS and some flights to DCA - big business destinations. DL just doesn't have that much market presence in MHT, which is fine - other airlines have soaked up a large chunk of the market. They'd rather the customers head on down to their large BOS operation and use that and have MHT soak up the few that don't.

Really, comparing MHT and RIC is like comparing apples and oranges. Sure, population sizes might be similar, but that's it. Very different market environments, and very different histories in each market for both carriers have substantial effects on the operations. The same can be said with many other northern cities - US has long been the dominant party up in the Northeast, much like DL has been in the Southeast.


User currently offlineOaktowntwinz From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3004 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 21):
Manchester, NH's MSA does not include the Merrimack Valley of Massachusetts (it extends as far south as the Mass state line but does not cross over) - throw in the area that is convinient to MHT (within 45 minutes or so, so basically the stretch from about Chelmsford all the way down river to Haverhill, so you get Chelmsford, Lowell, Dracut, Billerica, Tewksbury, Andover, Methuen, North Andover, Lawrence, Haverhill and we'll include Wilmington since that's just as easy since it's right on I-93 south of Andover) and that adds about 600,000 people to the metro area, bumping it up to just a hair above a million. Not a whole lot smaller (by about 150,000) than Richmond.

I usually try to avoid these "mines bigger than yours" debates but I'm stymied by these numbers. According to the 2006 census, Manchester has approx. 107,000 residents and the metro area (PMSA) stands at 198,378. It looks like the numbers you're adding to the population are not being added by the census bureau. According to the bureau, Manchester is substantially smaller than Richmond. That note aside, I don't live in either city, therefore, let me make it clear, I'm not biased in favor of either. However, numbers don't lie. Also, what often gets overlooked in these discussions re why cities are or aren't served is the type of passengers that dominate markets. Richmond is a huge business market, hence last minute, walk up fares are often the norm and those are the money makers for airlines. Delta has no more loyalty to Richmond than it does to Albany or Manchester. Its about the dollars and the Richmond market generates plenty.


User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2999 times:

I know that EWR is an interesting one for DL. Pre-9/11 in 2001, DL had zero 757 from Newark. In 2002, they suddenly beefed the schedules up by adding 757/767 to CVG/ATL/SLC. I have no idea why they did this, especially since LGA and JFK are much much larger stations for DL. Although currently the 762/763s are gone from EWR, we still are holding onto multiple 757s to ATL/SLC. I'd say thats good enough considering some of these New England airports have been getting the shaft from DL over the past few years.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2970 times:



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 7):
BUF and ROC have Airtran, so DL uses bigger metal to compete.

My wife and I tend to fly Delta a lot out of ROC, and competition from Airtran or not, Delta mainline flights leave Rochester full and usually tend to be over booked. My wife has a handful of Delta vouchers she has collected from getting bumped or rerouted. I'd have to say ROC is getting the mainline service because Delta is filling their planes here. I know I'm happy that I usually can avoid a CRJ.


25 FlyASAGuy2005 : But look at it like this, if they can jam their CR2's packed with high fares, then they will.
26 KstateinALB : That honestly means absolutely nothing. SAV is an important city in their route network in the state of Georgia. Especially with a different airline,
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