Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
TZ MAY Sell Scheduled Service!  
User currently offlineIndyCanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 28 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6870 times:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...e?AID=/20080130/BUSINESS/801300418

Mentions WN as possible suitor.

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTyphaerion From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 619 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6738 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Before this gets started I have to ask everyone who would post here two questions:

1.) Did you consider the source for the rumor of the sale? The article says, and I quote: "Pilots suggest Southwest Airlines or Aloha Airlines might buy ATA for its lucrative West Coast-to-Hawaii routes." There is no worse rumor mill in aviation then the flight crew mill. And they will say anything. I may make a few more enemies with this post but it is true.

2.) Tell me how it would be possible to split the two halves? I guess we could take everyone who works on both sides, which is nearly every employee based here in Indy, cut them in half and sell one half of the person to whoever is buying and keep one half to ourselves. Then we could take the 738s, split them in half, and sell have the plane to WN or AQ or whoever and keep half for the military and civilian charters they do a lot of right now. Same goes for all the spare parts, and ground equipment, etc.

I will grant that it is possible to conceive that some of ATA's resources could be sold to someone else in the highly unlikely event that we abandon the very profitable Hawaii and Caribbean markets, but if the charter stays, so does ATA. Global has to remain three separate airlines as part of the terms of the DOT approval of the World sale, otherwise we would represent a near monopoly of the MAC flying and would lose most of it. And it isn't as if those routes are slot controlled anyway, so anyone could fly them at any time. They would just need the gate space, which they already have.

I apologize for venting, but please, take it from an employee: this article is worth the paper it is written on and nothing more.

Now, let the ridiculous armchair CEO speculation on how long ATA will last commence.



For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
User currently offlineCaptSeth From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6609 times:

Hi All! Hi Bill! I couldn't resist any longer, no more lurking - now you have to put up with me.

1. "Pilots" isn't exactly a credible attribution. He obviously spoke to someone that was doing some "ass talking" as we say in the business. Honestly, there could be a number of potential suitors. Or Matlin Patterson could just be trying to drum up interest in ATA as a way to boost its perceived value. They do want to IPO GAL at some point.

2. It is possible to sell the "scheduled service" or a portion thereof. If, Typherion, you are convinced that the DoD portion of the business is required to remain as three separate carriers, than an airline that already has the necessary ETOPS approvals could buy, say, the Hawaii operation. Or an airline without the approvals could sign a subservice agreement until they obtain those approvals. Would this deal be good for the traveling public, the employees that built this operation, or our nation's air transportation system? I think not.

It would be far better to dedicate assets to rebuilding ATA Airlines. There is still great potential, as evidenced by the 15% interest $160 Million loan we're carrying to MP Global Partners. Yeah, the airline is being saved, but not by the greedheads on Madison Avenue. It's being saved by the employees that are left and the meager tools they've been given to work with.


User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6549 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

What the hell is going on with TZ? WO has been doing a few of your charters because you are so far in the penalty box with AMC. IS it the DC-10's? Lack of crews, or what?


Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5157 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6447 times:



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):
WO has been doing a few of your charters because you are so far in the penalty box with AMC. IS it the DC-10's?

It wasn't too long ago that the situation was reversed, and Randy Martinez took an earful (but not enough of one, in my view) about it. They said in the CC that they didn't realize what a big deal financially it would be to be on penalty. (Idiots.) Of course, that was before three of the largest AMC providers were owned by the same company. One is going to have to be a little careful about that, because if AMC starts to believe that putting a carrier on penalty isn't going to cost its owners any money, then it loses the effectiveness of that stick to discipline the carrier, and may seek to be given other sticks. Of course, the penalty box idles part of the fleet, so it does cost the owner real money. And there's always Omni and Ryan. But still...

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 1):
"Pilots suggest Southwest Airlines or Aloha Airlines might buy ATA for its lucrative West Coast-to-Hawaii routes."

Obviously, whomever wrote this article knows f-all about the airline business. You don't by a domestic carrier for its "routes", because, with a few exceptions at slot-controlled airports, anybody can fly anywhere. And it isn't like they're using an exactly-unique aircraft to service the route. Aloha could fly the routes tomorrow if it wanted to, and it doesn't need any additional infastructure to do so. The only reason you'd buy a competitor is to take out the competition. That means shut it down, not bring it aboard.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6441 times:



Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 1):
"Pilots suggest Southwest Airlines or Aloha Airlines might buy ATA for its lucrative West Coast-to-Hawaii routes.

Why would they have to buy TZ, when they can beging flying with their own metal tomorrow???? In a degrgulated environment, a route like LAX-HNL has absolutely zero value because there are no barriers to entry.


User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6322 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
no barriers to entry

While there are technically no barriers to entry, the airline industry does have very high barriers to entry, mostly in the because aquiring aircraft and starting routes (marketing) is expensive. If Aloha were to buy ATA's Hawai'i service, they would most likely get aircraft, a few employees (not sure how many TZ crews would move out here), and most importantly, all of TZ's advance bookings.....the revenue is already there.

Not sure if this is related, but 2 weeks ago, in Aloha's employee newsletter the CEO said that they were investing possible mergers/buyouts with other carriers but that nothing was beyond early talks. If ATA is indeed looking to sell, Aloha would, IMHO, be very interested as it would give them critical mass (particularly in HNL) as well as the WN codeshare, which would be VERY valuable to them. AQ wants more mainland routes, since they make money on them, but the interisland losses caused by go! are preventing them from beign able to aquire more aircraft. TZ's route structure fits in perfectly with AQ's and AQ's fits in perfectly to team up with WN.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineTyphaerion From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 619 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6113 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting CaptSeth (Reply 2):
than an airline that already has the necessary ETOPS approvals could buy, say, the Hawaii operation.

First of all, welcome to A.Net! It is always nice to see new blood in these ATA threads.

I guess my point was more along the lines of what is there to buy. You could buy the planes, but most only rotate through the op and they do a lot of charter work too. You would also have to buy the parts and get the planes to be outfitted similarly to your existing fleet (ATA has done a lot of customization work). Though we only lease the planes, so you would have to work out a deal with the leasor. Come to think of it, we lease the parts too, so you would have to deal with LHT for those. You could buy the crews, but then you would have to pay them, and your pilots would clamor over the seniority issue. You could buy the gates, but who would buy the gates that doesn't already have some. And if you bought the gates you could buy the ground equipment, but since we outsource most of our ground op, there is little to be had. You could buy the staff used to man the gates and run the ops center for those flights, but you would still need the planners and Engineering personnel for them, because if there is any of ATA left, they will need the people they have still.

And ATA would still need those planes and people and parts to run the charter op. So really, there isn't anything you could separate from ATA to buy. Though I could be wrong. Let me know what you think.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 4):
The only reason you'd buy a competitor is to take out the competition. That means shut it down, not bring it aboard.

Agreed. Hit the nail on the head here.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):
What the hell is going on with TZ?

Imagine new aircraft headaches with an old airplane that has plenty of its own problems. At the same time we are trying to get crews and personnel trained to work on the airplane, it is acting up because of all the modifications it has been through and the age that it has. Nothing that cant be resolved, but it will take time. So we are in the penalty box. This is not a place we have never been before and it is only wishful thinking to surmise we will never be there again. ATA is OK. I never thought I would say this, but I wish we had more L1011s at the moment because the L1011s that we do have are doing well. At least as well as they always have been.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 6):
If Aloha were to buy ATA's Hawai'i service, they would most likely get aircraft, a few employees (not sure how many TZ crews would move out here), and most importantly, all of TZ's advance bookings.....the revenue is already there.

The aircraft and bookings I can see. AQ already has 738 if I remember correctly, so there wont be a type mismatch. The crews would be hard to integrate with the union and all, and the parts and equipment out there are outsourced, so AQ would either have to buy them from the vendor or acquire more on their own. It is an expensive proposition.

Good discussion though. I am glad this is remaining mostly intelligent.



For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6030 times:

A combined TZ and AQ route map looks very nice.....especially with the WN codeshare. All of the islands are covered, plus if AQ could get ATA's 757s for service to LAS especially that would be worth ALOT to them, as non-stop Vegas service is currently their weakness. Seeing AQ on MDW-OAK would be cool too  Smile

Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 7):
It is an expensive proposition.

But for AQ it would be a very valuable one. Remember AQ is owned by a billionaire and in a deal like this one, if it involves the WN codeshare, WN might even make a small investment and/or oversee the deal in some way. It would be funny to see WN and UA both involved in AQ.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5980 times:

I'm going to go with WN, since they've already got their foot in the door so to speak. But I'm going to throw in a wild card as well. AirTran, especially considering the fact that they were oh so close in picking up some of the TZ assets that WN won.

I think that any deal for TZ will not include the 757s, especially if WN or AQ is the buyer. Now if my wild card enters the picture, who knows, if they might want the 757s (There are definitely some FL routes where the 753 would be perfect.).

One thought is perhaps the 757s go to NA and the DC-10s to WO. TZ would be sold outright (sans the 757s and DC-10s) and would cease to exist.


User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5949 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 9):
think that any deal for TZ will not include the 757s, especially if WN or AQ is the buyer.

If it is AQ I think they would want the 757s (atleast one), for the nonstop HNL-LAS service, which is the one thing AQ doesn't have that they need the most.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineTyphaerion From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 619 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5913 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

IMO, If there were to be a absorbtion of ATA by WO and NA, there would be no 757s for sale. And remember, the 738 fills an interesting niche in the charter market. WO or NA would be sure to 'keep' a few to support their own charter work.


For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5899 times:

What is ATA's current fleet? How many of each type?

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 926 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5898 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 9):
I'm going to go with WN, since they've already got their foot in the door so to speak. But I'm going to throw in a wild card as well. AirTran, especially considering the fact that they were oh so close in picking up some of the TZ assets that WN won.

I think that any deal for TZ will not include the 757s, especially if WN or AQ is the buyer. Now if my wild card enters the picture, who knows, if they might want the 757s (There are definitely some FL routes where the 753 would be perfect.).

One thought is perhaps the 757s go to NA and the DC-10s to WO. TZ would be sold outright (sans the 757s and DC-10s) and would cease to exist.

Eesh, you make it sound like ATA is going Chapter 7. We're talking solely scheduled service here, that amounts to 3-4 738s and a few 752 cycles with some intermittent 753 work too. Yes, scheduled service is a big chunk of the operation, but there is so much more that ATA is doing right now that they can't just sell everything. Do a flightaware search for AMT6101, there is a lot of money being poured into ATA from that one flight.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5888 times:



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 6):
While there are technically no barriers to entry, the airline industry does have very high barriers to entry, mostly in the because aquiring aircraft and starting routes (marketing) is expensive. If Aloha were to buy ATA's Hawai'i service, they would most likely get aircraft, a few employees (not sure how many TZ crews would move out here), and most importantly, all of TZ's advance bookings.....the revenue is already there.

while you are correct, it still doesnt create any value worth buying, unlike say a regulated route would.


User currently offlineIFlyATA From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 242 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5850 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 9):
I'm going to go with WN, since they've already got their foot in the door so to speak.

Not nearly as much as people think...

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 12):
What is ATA's current fleet? How many of each type?

12 Boeing 737-800
6 Boeing 757-200
4 Boeing 757-300
3 Lockheed L-1011
4 Douglas DC-10



ATA - an honestly different airline.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5812 times:



Quoting N908AW (Reply 13):

Eesh, you make it sound like ATA is going Chapter 7.

If it wasn't for WN (And to an extent, FL), TZ would have gone CH. 7. Like everyone else, I'm just doing some armchair quarterbacking. And it sure as hell would be more than 3-4 738s and (possibly) some 757s being included in the deal if the scheduled side of ATA were to be sold. I would guess that a minimum of 6 738 would be sold off (more if the 757s are not in the deal). Shifting TZ's charter ops to siblings WO and NA after selling off the scheduled ops actually would make financial sense as you would further cut costs by eliminating some duplicate positions and departments, and inventories. Part of the reason for the rumors regarding the sale of ATA's scheduled ops is that Global Aero is looking to raise cash and cut costs. There's more money to be made with charter operations than there is with scheduled operations. The ACMI cargo business and the military charters are quite lucrative in comparison to flying a scheduled passenger flight that may lose money because of the increasing price of fuel.


User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2362 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5786 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 14):
while you are correct, it still doesnt create any value worth buying, unlike say a regulated route would.

Yes it would create value. It would expand AQ's presence in the market the specialize in, as well as open up new markets they NEED (LAS-HNL non-stop) and provide (possibly) a codeshare with the largest domestic airline on the mainland, and eliminate a competitor. All of these are worth something, at the right price ofcourse.

Quoting IFlyATA (Reply 15):
12 Boeing 737-800
6 Boeing 757-200
4 Boeing 757-300
3 Lockheed L-1011
4 Douglas DC-10

Thanks!! I'm not sure how they use the 757s, but might they be willing to part with the 4 -300s?? perhaps if the deal included some -200s from somewhere else? The 757-300 seems to be ideally suited to Hawai'i flights, and lacks the range that makes the -200 so valuable for Trans-Atlantic.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5157 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5756 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 16):
If it wasn't for WN (And to an extent, FL), TZ would have gone CH. 7.

I gently disagree. TZ would have shrunk to charter-only and/or charter with whatever sked routes were sustainable on their own (perhaps like Hawaii and/or LGA back when fuel was cheaper). The present fleet mix, however, is not optimal for charter because of the high capital cost of the newer aircraft. Military flying comes in fits and starts and can't sustain the lease price of a New Super-Duper whatever, but can sustain the higher operating cost of flying older equipment with low capital cost. Finally, as has been mentioned here previously, Global gets an enormous benefit from owning airlines that operate on different AMC teams, a benefit that would vanish if the certificates and operations were combined. Also, remember that AMC requires a certain percentage of one's business to be non-military flying, and the sked service helps meet that requirement for ATA.


User currently offlineIFlyATA From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 242 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5678 times:



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 17):
The 757-300 seems to be ideally suited to Hawai'i flights, and lacks the range that makes the -200 so valuable for Trans-Atlantic.

You'd be surprised, those planes have a pretty good range! Especially with no payload (ferry), I've seen flights from Chicago to Budapest before, in a -300.



ATA - an honestly different airline.
User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1452 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

First of all after living in IND for over 11 years, the Indy Star is the last place I would believe anything aviation related let alone about TZ. They have consistently misreported the facts about TZ and were the worst during bankruptcy.

With that said, all are missing the real impetus behind the story which is actually mentioned in the second paragraph and this is the SEC filing by Global (GAL). If one reads the actual SEC filing which is a prospectus for a possible public offering, these type of financial releases always include scenarios and forward looking statements that are merely possibilities which any normal business always consider as possible strategies if their business plans don't pan out or market conditions fail. These are not considered certainties, but possibilities in order to inform investors of possible risks. This is absolutely the case here and no where in this document does it say for a fact that the sched. service business of ATA is currently being considered for sale or who any suitors would be so all should just calm down. All can read it here at sec.gov:

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...0104746908000171/a2181854zs-1a.htm

and one of the statements in it that is most obviously being misrepresented and misstated is as follows:

"We also continue to explore strategic opportunities for our scheduled service businesses, including network restructuring, international expansion, business combinations and partial or complete divestitures."


Quoting Typhaerion (Reply 1):
1.) Did you consider the source for the rumor of the sale? The article says, and I quote: "Pilots suggest Southwest Airlines or Aloha Airlines might buy ATA for its lucrative West Coast-to-Hawaii routes." There is no worse rumor mill in aviation then the flight crew mill. And they will say anything. I may make a few more enemies with this post but it is true.

2.) Tell me how it would be possible to split the two halves? I guess we could take everyone who works on both sides, which is nearly every employee based here in Indy, cut them in half and sell one half of the person to whoever is buying and keep one half to ourselves. Then we could take the 738s, split them in half, and sell have the plane to WN or AQ or whoever and keep half for the military and civilian charters they do a lot of right now. Same goes for all the spare parts, and ground equipment, etc.

I will grant that it is possible to conceive that some of ATA's resources could be sold to someone else in the highly unlikely event that we abandon the very profitable Hawaii and Caribbean markets, but if the charter stays, so does ATA. Global has to remain three separate airlines as part of the terms of the DOT approval of the World sale, otherwise we would represent a near monopoly of the MAC flying and would lose most of it. And it isn't as if those routes are slot controlled anyway, so anyone could fly them at any time. They would just need the gate space, which they already have.

 checkmark 

Quoting CaptSeth (Reply 2):
2. It is possible to sell the "scheduled service" or a portion thereof. If, Typherion, you are convinced that the DoD portion of the business is required to remain as three separate carriers, than an airline that already has the necessary ETOPS approvals could buy, say, the Hawaii operation.

No it really is not as there is nothing to sell. TZ is actually 3 operations in one (scheduled, military, commercial) but under one operating certificate so the 3 cannot truly be split unless spun off onto another certificate. TZ virtually owns nothing so could only give up (possibly sell) some gate and aircraft leases (if that is even possible) which is all there basically is to the "Hawaii" operation. TZ would not give up the operating certificate unless the entire airline was sold.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
Why would they have to buy TZ, when they can beging flying with their own metal tomorrow???? In a degrgulated environment, a route like LAX-HNL has absolutely zero value because there are no barriers to entry.

No, they cannot. WN does not posses ETOPS capability, though could get it if they wish and would need to convert some aircraft to full overwater capable (rafts, life vests, ELTs).

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 9):
I'm going to go with WN, since they've already got their foot in the door so to speak. But I'm going to throw in a wild card as well. AirTran, especially considering the fact that they were oh so close in picking up some of the TZ assets that WN won.

I think that any deal for TZ will not include the 757s, especially if WN or AQ is the buyer. Now if my wild card enters the picture, who knows, if they might want the 757s (There are definitely some FL routes where the 753 would be perfect.).

One thought is perhaps the 757s go to NA and the DC-10s to WO. TZ would be sold outright (sans the 757s and DC-10s) and would cease to exist.

Again, read above. There is nothing to sell unless the entire airline is sold which is highly unlikely as the TZ is the flagship airline for Global, provides over 2/3 of the operating revenue and a majority of the military revenue. Also as has been stated many times before, the strategy has always been to diversify across the three airlines not consolidate them and Global wishes to maximize the military revenue by having airlines in two separate bid groups. This could not be done if TZ went away and completely negates the reason for the original WO acquisition.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 16):
Shifting TZ's charter ops to siblings WO and NA after selling off the scheduled ops actually would make financial sense as you would further cut costs by eliminating some duplicate positions and departments, and inventories. Part of the reason for the rumors regarding the sale of ATA's scheduled ops is that Global Aero is looking to raise cash and cut costs.

This is silly and devoid of fact. The back office functions (e.g. sales, marketing, purchasing, etc.) of all three airlines has already been consolidated, but the carriers themselves (i.e. operating certificates) remain separate. Read above for more.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 18):
I gently disagree. TZ would have shrunk to charter-only and/or charter with whatever sked routes were sustainable on their own (perhaps like Hawaii and/or LGA back when fuel was cheaper). The present fleet mix, however, is not optimal for charter because of the high capital cost of the newer aircraft. Military flying comes in fits and starts and can't sustain the lease price of a New Super-Duper whatever, but can sustain the higher operating cost of flying older equipment with low capital cost. Finally, as has been mentioned here previously, Global gets an enormous benefit from owning airlines that operate on different AMC teams, a benefit that would vanish if the certificates and operations were combined. Also, remember that AMC requires a certain percentage of one's business to be non-military flying, and the sked service helps meet that requirement for ATA.

 checkmark 

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 17):
Thanks!! I'm not sure how they use the 757s, but might they be willing to part with the 4 -300s?? perhaps if the deal included some -200s from somewhere else? The 757-300 seems to be ideally suited to Hawai'i flights, and lacks the range that makes the -200 so valuable for Trans-Atlantic.

The 4 753s will not be parted with. They are an integral part of the diversification strategy of having aircraft in different sizes and capabilities. The TZ 738 and 753 are our strong points since neither WO or NA have these.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineFxra From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 706 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5329 times:



Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 4):
It wasn't too long ago that the situation was reversed, and Randy Martinez took an earful (but not enough of one, in my view) about it. They said in the CC that they didn't realize what a big deal financially it would be to be on penalty. (Idiots.)



Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 4):
Obviously, whomever wrote this article knows f-all about the airline business.

I postulate from the above statements that Randy Martinez did in fact write the article. Sorry couldn't resist. As a former employee of WOA, I will say that that company pissed away more money than u could imagine. And whats worse, is that the middle/upper management didn't seem to want to know how to make operations more streamlined. I left shortly after the GAL acquisition.

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 20):
and one of the statements in it that is most obviously being misrepresented and misstated is as follows:

"We also continue to explore strategic opportunities for our scheduled service businesses, including network restructuring, international expansion, business combinations and partial or complete divestitures."

sounds a lot like:

Quote:
Legacy Partners Group, which was retained to examine various strategic alternatives to enhance shareholder value, is approximately 80 days into the process and has recently incorporated World Air Holdings' 2007 business plan into its analysis. Alternatives that are being evaluated include, but are not limited to, repositioning the company, operating partnerships, potential strategic acquisition or merger opportunities, leveraged recapitalization, and potential sale of the company to a financial or strategic partner.

From the Quarterly report issued in December prior to the GAL acquisition... I can see how one could read into the GAL statement that there is the potential for divesting the sked service.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):
What the hell is going on with TZ? WO has been doing a few of your charters because you are so far in the penalty box with AMC. IS it the DC-10's? Lack of crews, or what?

Imagine getting 3 or 4 copies of 351 at once. Remember issues when WOA bought that beauty??



Visualize Whirled Peas
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5157 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5301 times:



Quoting Fxra (Reply 21):
Imagine getting 3 or 4 copies of 351 at once.

Ohboy. Hope it isn't that bad. I recall people at the time saying that ol' N14075 was an unusually buggy a/c. And I guess it's back in the air again. Does this mean that it's going to be the most reliable DC10 in the combined fleets? That's a little scary. Or are WO and TZ making progress in integrating these a/c? Of course, the point of getting the DC10s was that they were: (a) less likely to break than the L1011s and (b) easier to find parts for when they did. But after decades of experience with the L1011, there were centers of knowledge and centers of excellence at TZ about those aircraft, which I assume will ultimately be established wrt the DC10. Similarly, WOA has been running DC10s for decades; I guess the question is whether the folks who knew the most about how to tame those birds are still around, or whether they, like my friend Frxa, have departed.

PS Anyone heard anything about Clipper002 lately? I miss him on this board.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5157 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5296 times:



Quoting Fxra (Reply 21):
I postulate from the above statements that Randy Martinez did in fact write the article.

 bitelip   cold   rotfl 


User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5286 times:



Quoting IFlyATA (Reply 15):
3 Lockheed L-1011

Ships 162 and 163 are heading out of the fleet within the next month or so, and 164 should be in C-Check as we speak. It will be the last L-1011 to fly with TZ.  cry 



I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
25 AirTran737 : 351 is a flying turd. There is no other way to put it. It is sitting peacefully in ATL after running a sub-service for TZ to SSH and back. 303 and 30
26 Post contains images Typhaerion : I figured it was only a matter of time before TZTriStar500 weighed in. And the dialogue was as intelligent as always. Anyone who doesn't believe that
27 Post contains images IFlyATA : The "Freedom Bird" doesn't like to be grounded.
28 Typhaerion : Heh, I don't know if I would go that far. But just like the troops she carries, it appears she has a fighter's spirit. She knows that when the rest o
29 Wjcandee : Maybe they aren't loafing. Maybe they're just embarrassed to go out of the house in their hideous new haircuts. (Of course, flying anywhere beats the
30 FXRA : Last spotting I heard of was somewhere in South Florida loving retirement. His son was lurking around, mostly in Airtran threads. I firmly believe th
31 Post contains images Typhaerion : That brought a smile to my face. I agree wholehearted, by the way. If I looked that ugly I wouldn't want to leave the house in the morning either. At
32 Fxra : You ar ein luck, I just happen to have a couple 767-400 I'll let got for the price of a -200! They are slightly used, but u can pick them up whenever
33 ZuluLima : So in say, 5 years when there are a few hundred 787s flying around and more 767s off the line as well, would anyone be surprised to see TZ pick up us
34 Typhaerion : If I were to take those -400s off your hands, why don't I just take the 777s? They are a bit larger and would allow us to carry more troops. Heck, we
35 LN-MOW : Because DL don't want to sell them. But both DL and CO will happily accept offers for their -400's ....
36 TZTriStar500 : As some of you may have heard, ATA's COO, Gary Ellmer, was "retired" late last week due to the poor operating condition of the company, especially the
37 Chase : Do you have a source?
38 Wjcandee : This poster IS a source. Well, it was a big jump from American Eagle in the Carribbean to running ATA. Maybe someone spent too much time trying to pl
39 PHX Flyer : Can you describe briefly how the penalty box works?
40 Wjcandee : Very briefly, the AMC has performance criteria, and various airlines' satisfaction or not of it used to be published on line, measured in percentages
41 PHX Flyer : Thanks so much, Bill. That'll do nicely. Since ATA's chapter 11 reorganization I've always wondered, what the allure is for an airline owner to operat
42 B757capt : I have read this entire thread and definitely need to pour a cocktail. What is the possibility of ATA ending the MDW operation and focusing on the wes
43 Wjcandee : One issue is that WOA and NAO are on the largest CRAF (military) "team" and AMT is on the other large CRAF team (both for long-range international op
44 MAH4546 : I'm curious to see what will happen to ATA's six non-Hawai'i routes if somebody buys the operation. Will ORD-GDL/CUN/OAK/DFW and MIA-GUA/SJO stick aro
45 TZTriStar500 : No, nothing of the scheduled route system would stay in my opinion. It would not make any sense. MIA-GUA/SJO would stay since its a wet lease through
46 MAH4546 : The U.S. government rejected the application to market the flights under USALatin Sky. They are marketed as ATA flights, they have to be. USA Latin S
47 Post contains images Atrude777 : Mark, did you mean MDW, as far as I know ATA doesnt servce ORD due to the codeshare agreements with WN at MDW. Just checking unless there was somethi
48 TZTriStar500 : Yes they are marketed by USALatin as ATA flights and the responsibility to fill them is still on them and not ATA. The fact that they are listed on a
49 Kohflot : Seems to me that one way to answer the question is to first ask who the "interested parties" would be. AirTran? I imagine they'd be interested as a w
50 Aloha73G : Aloha could probably afford such a deal (if the price was right) because mainland routes are profitable and it would decrease the impact of interisla
51 767driver : Didn't ATA just get MNPS/N.Atlantic approval for their -800's? To me that would seem that they are interested in keeping their 73s
52 LN-MOW : They did as of 1/1, and they're frequently crossing the Atlantic these days.
53 Typhaerion : It isn't that ATA isn't interested in keeping the planes, it is just that they are exploring all of their options. Whatever makes money for the compa
54 Bobnwa : It isn't relevant, that an aircraft have good range with no payload, Why would anyone care about that? The 757-300 has the range for West Coast -Hawa
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Airbus May Sell Factories To US-based Spirit posted Sun Dec 16 2007 07:24:40 by USAF336TFS
ATA To Operate DC-10 In Scheduled Service posted Tue Dec 11 2007 03:43:46 by IFlyATA
NW Cargo May Downsize, NW May Sell WorldPerks posted Tue Dec 4 2007 13:03:03 by WA707atMSP
Russia May Sell Eads Stake-Report posted Thu Jul 12 2007 00:31:45 by Lumberton
Vision Airlines Gets Scheduled Service Certificate posted Fri Mar 30 2007 21:34:39 by FATFlyer
Harmony Suspending Scheduled Service posted Tue Mar 27 2007 20:37:32 by DYK
Aer Lingus: Scheduled Service To MCO posted Thu Mar 22 2007 14:02:39 by Crownvic
Panasonic Aviation May Offer Internet Service posted Wed Nov 22 2006 07:18:39 by Leelaw
CanJet Suspends Scheduled Service Sept. 10 posted Tue Sep 5 2006 16:12:29 by Matt
El Al May End YYZ Service posted Tue Jul 18 2006 05:48:17 by MAH4546
Asiana May Start UAE Service posted Sun Jul 27 2008 09:04:20 by 777way
Last Day Of NAA Scheduled Service posted Mon May 19 2008 18:21:04 by FRA2DTW
USA3000 Leaving Scheduled Service? posted Tue May 13 2008 17:30:07 by PieTpaFlSun
Cdn Airports That May Gain Passenger Service posted Fri Mar 7 2008 16:54:55 by Tennisace
ATA Ends All Scheduled Service At MDW posted Thu Mar 6 2008 10:58:41 by FlyPNS1
North American Airlines To End Scheduled Service posted Tue Feb 19 2008 04:59:07 by BigPhilNYC