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American 1865 To VNY, Why?  
User currently offlineB737-112 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 891 posts, RR: 5
Posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2406 times:

I was flight tracking the AA MD-80 that flies DFW to BUR and noticed it diverted to Van Nuys which does not handle airliners, seems odd. I would think if BUR was not an option for whatever reason it would fly to LAX or ONT. If anybody has any info it would be greatly appreciated as to if this was mechanical or a weather diversion of some sort.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...5/history/20080130/0241Z/KDFW/KVNY

Thanks,
Ryan

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

It wasn't a weather diversion--BUR weather was great...

KBUR 301753Z 36018G26KT 10SM CLR 12/M06 A3015 RMK AO2 PK WND 01031/1717 WSHFT 1659 SLP203 T01221056 10122 20028 56002 $
KBUR 301719Z 36022G31KT 10SM CLR 11/M05 A3015 RMK AO2 PK WND 01031/1717 WSHFT 1659 $
KBUR 301653Z 27008KT 230V310 10SM CLR 09/M01 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP206 T00891011 $
KBUR 301553Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 04/01 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP205 T00390011 $
KBUR 301453Z 36003KT 10SM CLR 03/00 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP208 T00330000 53001 $
KBUR 301353Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 03/00 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP206 T00280000 $
KBUR 301253Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 03/01 A3013 RMK AO2 SLP199 T00280006 $
KBUR 301153Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 03/01 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP205 T00330006 10083 20033 56005 $
KBUR 301053Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 04/01 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP206 T00440011 $
KBUR 300953Z 33003KT 10SM CLR 04/01 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP206 T00440006 $
KBUR 300853Z 32003KT 10SM CLR 06/02 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP211 T00560017 58010 $
KBUR 300753Z 31003KT 10SM CLR 07/02 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP215 T00670017 401390028 $
KBUR 300653Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 08/03 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP220 T00780028 $
KBUR 300553Z 00000KT 10SM SCT039 08/02 A3020 RMK AO2 SLP221 T00830022 10122 20083 50003 $
KBUR 300453Z 00000KT 10SM BKN037 09/03 A3020 RMK AO2 SLP223 T00890028 $
KBUR 300353Z 26005KT 10SM SCT039 10/02 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP221 T01000022 $
KBUR 300253Z 12003KT 10SM SCT031 OVC039 10/03 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP218 T01000033 51008 $
KBUR 300153Z 15005KT 10SM BKN037 11/03 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP215 T01060028 $
KBUR 300053Z 18006KT 10SM BKN049 11/03 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP214 T01110028 $
KBUR 292353Z 19008KT 10SM BKN043 12/03 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP209 T01220028 10139 20100 55007 $
KBUR 292253Z VRB03KT 10SM SCT047 13/01 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP208 T01330011 $
KBUR 292153Z VRB03KT 10SM FEW044 13/01 A3017 RMK AO2 SLP211 T01280006 $
KBUR 292053Z 00000KT 10SM BKN042 12/00 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP216 T01220000 58023 $
KBUR 291953Z 15005KT 10SM BKN042 11/01 A3021 RMK AO2 SLP225 T01110006 $
KBUR 291853Z VRB05KT 10SM CLR 11/01 A3024 RMK AO2 SLP235 T01110011 $

The LYNXX8 arrival takes you over PMD to LYNXX (about 15NW of VNY) and then from LYNXX straight towards VNY, at which point you make a left turn eastbound and lined up on final for runway 8 at BUR. If I had to venture a guess, it'd be that they had a sudden and critical passenger medical issue, or a mechanical issue involving flaps, an anti-skid system, or an outright engine shutdown.

Heading from LYNXX to VNY pretty much lines them up on runway 16R at VNY, which at 8,000 feet long is longer than either of BUR's two runways. From overhead VNY landing BUR is only another couple of minutes flying time, but in a sudden and critical medical situation (passenger heart attack?) minutes count.

An anti-skid inop increases required landing distance, which BUR's shorter runways may not have provided at the flight's actual landing weight. If that was the case, it's not critical time-wise, and ONT or LAX would have indeed seemed better choices as far as runway distances and the availability of MX and parts.

If it was an engine shutdown, FARs require a twin to land at the nearest suitable airport in point-of-time, so assuming an engine was shutdown just either side of LYNXX, VNY would have been the closest suitable airport, closer time-wise than BUR, and much closer time-wise than LAX or ONT. I'm not current on MD-80 systems/procedures, but if it's anything like the 737 (in which a single-engine landing is done at flaps-15 versus the normal flaps-30 or flaps-40 landing), any lesser lesser flap setting than normal would have involved higher landing speeds. At a short runway airport like BUR, that higher speed uses up the short runway all the faster, such that one doesn't attempt a landing.

Just a couple of educated guesses. Maybe AAR90 can chime in...


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23309 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

I'm not so sure it actually went to VNY... AA.com shows it arriving an hour late at BUR after leaving DFW roughly an hour late, and I can't seem to find a departure from VNY on flightaware.


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineB737-112 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 891 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

The departure out of VNY would be VFR, meaning no FlightAware indication.


OPNLguy, thanks for the great reply!


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23309 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2314 times:



Quoting B737-112 (Reply 3):
The departure out of VNY would be VFR, meaning no FlightAware indication.

You're assuming it went to BUR. But if it had a m/x issue and went back to DFW (or if they took it to TUL), that would be IFR.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2308 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
I'm not so sure it actually went to VNY... AA.com shows it arriving an hour late at BUR after leaving DFW roughly an hour late, and I can't seem to find a departure from VNY on flightaware.

I didn't check VNY departures, and that brings up another possibility.

About a year or two ago, there was a thread about flightaware showing a 747 flight from OLM-Europe, and someone wondered if it was diversion of some kind. Turns out that Seattle ARTCC had about a 10-minute computer burp and that when it came back-up it showed the flight as being overhead that VOR, and not having taken off from the associate airport.

Since VNY is a routing point DFW-BUR, maybe a similar computer issue at LA ARTCC resulted in the flight's datatag being dropped and flight aware interpreted that as a landing at VNY versus a point being overflown on the way into BUR.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23309 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2296 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):

Since VNY is a routing point DFW-BUR, maybe a similar computer issue at LA ARTCC resulted in the flight's datatag being dropped and flight aware interpreted that as a landing at VNY versus a point being overflown on the way into BUR.

Of course, flightaware also burps sometimes for no apparent reason.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2296 times:

Interesting, since Red1 has nothing about VNY:

http://icarus.red1aviation.com/cgi-b...?flightkey=110983141&ident=AAL1865



Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2296 times:



Quoting B737-112 (Reply 3):
The departure out of VNY would be VFR, meaning no FlightAware indication.

Part 121 airline flights are filed IFR, irrespective of VMC or IMC weather conditions.

Quoting B737-112 (Reply 3):
OPNLguy, thanks for the great reply!

Any time...


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2262 times:

Actually it would appear it did land at VNY.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23309 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2262 times:



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9):
Actually it would appear it did land at VNY.

Is it still there?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineB737-112 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 891 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

For those interested BUR has a CXP B734, RYN B722 and a JUS DC93 all en route right now. I guess it's the GOP candidates and they're landing/departing on Runway 33 (the uphill runway), this should be a fun day!

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

I'm not to sure about AA1865 landing at VNY as the tower activity log does not indicate that while the BUR tower shows 1865 having arrived at 2246L last night. Also there were no flight plans filed between VNY and BUR last 24hrs.

Quoting B737-112 (Reply 11):
I guess it's the GOP candidates

Not just them. Hillary will be in LA this evening after visiting northern CA (OAK & SMF)

2 C-17s arrived at LAX with limos and associated equipment for all the candidates.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Ah, wasn't a noise curfew issue at BUR was it?
Is the AA MD80 stage 2 or 3 compliant?

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 8):
Part 121 airline flights are filed IFR, irrespective of VMC or IMC weather conditions.



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Also there were no flight plans filed between VNY and BUR last 24hrs.

Does that include VFR? It certainly wouldn't file IFR from VNY to BUR, or probably fly under Part 121 if it was empty. It might not even file at all.


.. of course, this is probably all a Red Herring ... didn't land at VNY anyway!!

Jimbo

[Edited 2008-01-30 12:23:43]


I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2081 times:



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 13):
Ah, wasn't a noise curfew issue at BUR was it? Is the AA MD80 stage 2 or 3 compliant?

Currently BUR has the stupidest "voluntary" curfew which every airline breaks. Until the rules change (City and FAA are working on an amendment in 08 or '09) I would not consider that a factor.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 13):
It certainly wouldn't file IFR from VNY to BUR, or probably fly under Part 121 if it was empty. It might not even file at all.

While yes it would operate under tower to tower handling, I'm not sure AA is allowed VFR ops. Most majors in their ops specs/FOM's require IFR only ops.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2071 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Currently BUR has the stupidest "voluntary" curfew which every airline breaks

But it also has a mandatory curfew after 10pm for Stage 2 right?

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3498 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2031 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):
Maybe AAR90 can chime in...

Thanks, just throw up your hands and ask for help.  bouncy  Here's the flight log (time columns are Scheduled, Planned, and Actual... all in LOCAL times):

DFW...1935..2025..2022-
DFW............2038..2040-
BUR.............2146..2153-
BUR....2055..2156..2156-

I'm guessing the 47 minute OUT delay was due to an indicator light that needed replacement (been a long time since I flew MD80/90). Otherwise, it appears the flight operated normally.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9):
Actually it would appear it did land at VNY.

Just another example of why I don't use publicly available sources for AA flight info. weeping 

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 13):
Is the AA MD80 stage 2 or 3 compliant?

Stage-3, but just barely. shhh 



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1996 times:



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 16):
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 9):
Actually it would appear it did land at VNY.

Just another example of why I don't use publicly available sources for AA flight info.

I agree, but I do know that the flight plan was changed (maybe incorrectly) to VNY ... for some unknown reason still  Wink

Here it is straight out of the box before:

.ABI064084..CNX.J74.SJN.J231.DRK.J6.PMD.LYNXX8.BUR

and after:

.HEC248015..DAG205015..PMD.LYNXX8.VNY"



Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1947 times:



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 16):

Thanks, just throw up your hands and ask for help.

Thanks for chiming in and solving the mystery, or at least confirming the bird didn't actually land at VNY.

In addition to occasional flighaware errors, we sometimes see data tags for our DAL arrivals showing DFW. Perhaps someone at ZFW/D10 mis-clicks or mis-slews the trackball, but most of the time the "DFW" eventually reverts to correctly show "DAL." As that stuff feeds ASD, which in turn feeds flightaware, flightexplorer and all the other ASD products/services, so it's not always the fault of the product/service themselves.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1879 times:



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 15):
But it also has a mandatory curfew after 10pm for Stage 2 right?

Yes but MD-80 is not stage 2. Stage 2 commercial planes were long banned in US skies with the exception of Alaska and Hawaii.

But anyhow even that restriction is nearly toothless with a maximum of a ~$3500 fine for a violation with lots of late night stage-2 biz jet traffic still coming and going.

Based on initial positive FAA comments seems like BUR will have its Part 161 study and application accepted making it the first airport since new federal laws went into effect to apply a fixed curfew. (a 10 year project for the airport and community).



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1851 times:

Since the OP's question has been answered and the thread is now turning into an off-topic discussion on airport noise curfews, the thread is now locked.

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