QQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2198 posts, RR: 14 Posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8629 times:
The following article talks about potential merger partners for AA and basically rules out everyone but NW. It says AA could make a counter bid to DL's offer, should they indeed offer to purchase NW. It's a fairly interesting read as we navigate all the merger speculation.
Following is a link from a 2000 thread about a possible AA/NW merger. If AA and NW talked now it wouldn't be the first time they've thought about linking up.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21214 posts, RR: 19 Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8525 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1): Oh lord, really? Outside NW's NRT hub, what would AA really get out of it that they want?
It wouldn't be without precedent... AA wasn't buying TW for STL or for the aircraft. JFK was the prize. But DTW, MSP, and ORD would present a serious problem, and MEM and STL provide similar coverage in the middle of the country that AA doesn't really need between ORD and DFW. Of course, there are arguments to be made about fleet and workgroups as well. NRT is the one and only reason NW is attractive to AA (aside from the fact that if AA buys NW, others cannot).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
4everRC From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 322 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8526 times:
Yeah, that'd work...
...especially since AA has such a positive relationship with Airbus.
SeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1275 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8503 times:
I would imagine that AA might bid on NW to push the price up for DL if there is an offer ...
Rockinflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8403 times:
Let the games begin! For whats its worth, I'd like to see the AA/DL brands become the survivors in any case. CO better start weighing their options as well. CO could be a good fit with UA as well as any DL deal. I have no great love of UA (way too many bad experiences in the last 20 years) and would hope the CO brand would survive, but that's a personal issue. Anyway, what ever happens, its going to get extremely interesting! (Also makes me wonder where this may leave AS? They sure are holding their own!)
Ripcordd From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1022 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8097 times:
They only bought TWA so that nobody else would and drive out 1 less airline they really didnt need them for JFK as you they just built a huge terminal. UA/NW are the only 2 airlines that make sense besides smaller ones like Airtran/Frontier/Alaska etc. AA would get access to Asia. If they bought NW they would sell all Airbus and 747's Turn DTW into a focus city and shift all flights to ORD/DFW that they don't serve already. MSP would trim down a bit but not as much as DTW. MEM would turn into STL. AA would then order 300 787'S and 35 more 777'S 75 more 737's and place the first order for the 737NS with 400 planes. AA would cut off ties with KLM. Ok this is way out there but something is going to happen this year and once 1 does they will all start to scramble. Or maybe they are just trying to push up the price like others have said. I still think that the best would be to merge with UA then NW and then if they are not going to merge with the big ones buy Airtran and Alaska just my 2 cents so dont flame me.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7989 times:
o boy maybe this will make DL go after UA
boy would CO be pissed
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7989 times:
Quoting Ripcordd (Reply 7): They only bought TWA so that nobody else would and drive out 1 less airline they really didnt need them for JFK as you they just built a huge terminal.
yes, everyone knows AA's M.O. by now and no self respecting NW employee is going to support an AA merger. And neither would any midwest politicitians who would see a NW/AA route map littered with midwest hubs.
And for the record, AA is the 3rd largest US airline to Japan. Accepting a NRT hub as adequate for an Asian presence is ludicrous for an airline that has one of the largest 777 fleets in the world - all of which are fully capable of overflying Japan to many destinations in Asia.
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6779 posts, RR: 25 Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7925 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10): yes, everyone knows AA's M.O. by now and no self respecting NW employee is going to support an AA merger. And neither would any midwest politicitians who would see a NW/AA route map littered with midwest hubs.
Im going to agree with this statement. AA is my carrier of choice and Im definately an AA fanboy, but what AA will do with any carrier they merge with is take what they want and sell or chop the rest. From NW, AA will want the NRT hub and thats about it. With ORD, im not so sure that they will need DTW and MSP, one will be sold (probably DTW) and the other (probably MSP) would be reduced to mostly domestic opps. With DFW and STL, im not sure that they will need MEM. If I worked for NW, the prospect of mergeing with AA would be terrifying.
Im not opposed to a merger for AA, but no matter what (due to AA's sheer size) AA will be the top dog and call all the shots. To reduce bloodshed, I dont think AA should go for a huge carrier, but rather a smaller one like AS. I dont think that AA would chop anything from AS. Im not sure if its feasible, but it seems good in my mind.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
Flyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1015 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7873 times:
Personally, I like the idea of a US/NW merger or a CO/NW merger. US has no overlap except possibly PHL, and has been growing their Europe flying. CO already has a good Europe network from EWR, and the IAH hub wouldn't hurt either.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7799 times:
NW couldn't find a better deal than with DL. If DL will be the southern gentlemen that will bend over backwards to make the merger work, AA will be the chainsaw massacrer. CO mgmt will have no tolerance for NW mgmt either. NW has only one decent choice.
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6779 posts, RR: 25 Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7772 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13): NW couldn't find a better deal than with DL. If DL will be the southern gentlemen that will bend over backwards to make the merger work, AA will be the chainsaw massacrer. CO mgmt will have no tolerance for NW mgmt either. NW has only one decent choice.
I wouldnt go so far as to say DL will be the Southern Gentleman. They are going to take a few things to the chopping block and probably put alot of people in MSP out of work. However I agree that they would be the best taker for NW.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7773 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13): NW couldn't find a better deal than with DL. If DL will be the southern gentlemen that will bend over backwards to make the merger work, AA will be the chainsaw massacrer. CO mgmt will have no tolerance for NW mgmt either. NW has only one decent choice.
well DL has one great great choice(UA) and they have an OK choice(NW) and it looks like there going to pick the ok choice
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7759 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14): They are going to take a few things to the chopping block and probably put alot of people in MSP out of work.
There's no assurance that DL wouldn't get rid of some of its own people too. DL is running a business and will look for the best people. They are not above thinking some of them have MN driver's licenses right now.
AA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2271 posts, RR: 25 Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7716 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3): AA wasn't buying TW for STL or for the aircraft. JFK was the prize.
Another reason was SJU. TW had SJU as a focus city and AA wanted to eliminate competition there.
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13): NW couldn't find a better deal than with DL. If DL will be the southern gentlemen that will bend over backwards to make the merger work, AA will be the chainsaw massacrer. CO mgmt will have no tolerance for NW mgmt either. NW has only one decent choice.
Not only would it be a chainsaw massacre, could you imagine the labor relations with both airlines? Bloodshed would be one word.
VHECA From Australia, joined May 2007, 259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7659 times:
Just speculation, but with the number of midwestern hubs as indicated above should a takeover between AA/Nw happen, could we see a LCC brand from AA operating out of "acquired" hubs?
Having two brands under the one airline does not seem to be the operating standard in the US but maybe an opportunity to start something new?
Cheers
VH-ECA
Types Flown on - 312,320,722,732,733,73H,73W,742,743,74C,752,762,AB4,D1C,D28,DHT,F27,L11
QQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2198 posts, RR: 14 Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7619 times:
According to AA they bought TWA for two reasons: 1) Compete with a combined UA/US and 2) DFW and ORD were maxed out and they needed a third mid-continent hub. It had nothing to do with JFK and probably very little to do with SJU. TWA was not a major competitor, but AA was to benefit from an instant third hub in the midwest with planes and employees to staff it. It was a big win for AA. In the end, the UA/US deal didn't go through and then 9/11 happened. A couple of years later, CEO Gerard Arpey said in hindsight the TWA deal was not a good one and shouldn't have gone through, however, given the circumstances at the time, it was the best deal.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
SEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6256 posts, RR: 39 Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7584 times:
Any merger is going to involve bloodshed and union problems. Most observers believe that the industry has too many players and that consolidation is inevitable. From what I see there are two primary buyers (AA and DL) and two primary targets (NW and UA). Neither of the buyers is going to be concerned with anything other their own advantage, and so the first deal that happens is going to force everyone else's hand. Hopefully it will be a good one; but that is by no means guaranteed. Many factors come into play, not the least of which is management egos. I do not know enough about the players involved to even hazard a guess as to which way it will go; but I do feel that some big move will happen soon.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7475 times:
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 15): well DL has one great great choice(UA) and they have an OK choice(NW) and it looks like there going to pick the ok choice
But the total decision has to include all factors and DL and UA's size is something of a hindrance. Therefore you sometimes have to go for another choice and make it work. I wouldn't say NW is just an OK choice... there are challenges that will have to be overcome with UA or NW. NW has the ingredients that DL can use to build a truly world class airline. UA may feel they are closer to being there themselves and may not be as willing to allow someone else to tinker with their formula - whether it is right or not.
Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 19): According to AA they bought TWA for two reasons: 1) Compete with a combined UA/US and 2) DFW and ORD were maxed out and they needed a third mid-continent hub. It had nothing to do with JFK and probably very little to do with SJU.
yes, and we know companies always publicly tell us their real motivations.
Of course you tell the world TW wasn't a good idea... but by that point, the SJU hub was eliminated and competition in JFK was reduced.... for about a year until B6 popped up. Now, look at the mess AA has to deal with up the road at FLL. You don't eliminate competition in the airline industry. You either learn to adapt to it or you get run over by it.
LAXdude1023 From Lebanon, joined Sep 2006, 6779 posts, RR: 25 Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7291 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21): But the total decision has to include all factors and DL and UA's size is something of a hindrance. Therefore you sometimes have to go for another choice and make it work. I wouldn't say NW is just an OK choice... there are challenges that will have to be overcome with UA or NW. NW has the ingredients that DL can use to build a truly world class airline. UA may feel they are closer to being there themselves and may not be as willing to allow someone else to tinker with their formula - whether it is right or not.
In other words DL wants NW not only because they have things that they want, but because they feel they can push NW around. Thats the biggest reason I think DL wants NW more. UA has more to offer obviously, but they are going to put up a fight. NW will not and DL knows they can do whatever they feel like. MSP and the state of MN will put up a fight, but not NW.
DFW Fan Boy: Im crude, irreverent, and blunt, but Im not clueless. I offer no apologies.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7256 times:
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 22): In other words DL wants NW not only because they have things that they want, but because they feel they can push NW around. Thats the biggest reason I think DL wants NW more. UA has more to offer obviously, but they are going to put up a fight. NW will not and DL knows they can do whatever they feel like. MSP and the state of MN will put up a fight, but not NW.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
EXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7207 times:
Quoting QQflyboy (Thread starter): The following article talks about potential merger partners for AA and basically rules out everyone but NW. It says AA could make a counter bid to DL's offer, should they indeed offer to purchase NW. I
DL doesnt have an offer for NWA, it would be a merger, not a DL buyout.
The 2000 discussion between AA and NW was a panicked response to UA/US
25 ElmoTheHobo: And what was the reason that American took over TWA pray tell? Absolutely was the best deal for what they needed at the time. Of course hindsight is
26 AviationAddict: Why is it that people immediately go to fleet commonality when a possible merger is announced? It wouldn't really matter if airline A had an all jet
27 WorldTraveler: No. Because UA+DL is probably too large to pass without divesting some assets. NW doesn't present that problem. And of course we have the alliance is
28 MAH4546: WorldTraveller continues to insist that Spirit is a serious threat to American Airlines, which it isn't, but in his little Delta-land, it is. Spirit
30 WorldTraveler: Can we quote you on that? If NK isn't a threat, then why does AA feel a need to match their fares and why did AA bother to create a special webpage c
31 LAXdude1023: One of the reasons DL will go after NW is because they feel they can push them around. It might not be the only reason, but it is a reason. Make no m
32 The777Man: A combined AA/NW would still be weaker than a combined UA/DL. I'm not sure why a lot of peole give so much credence to alliances; at UA everything inc
33 ElmoTheHobo: TWA was small fish. I guess Continental was also trying to eliminate the competition when it bid on TWA? Or does that go against your typically anti-
34 Commavia: A few thoughts about a hypothetical (and I personally think unlikely) AA-NW merger. First, I agree 100% with what others have said in terms of AA's pr
35 Jbernie: Thinking outside of the USA for the moment, how would a AA/NW merger maybe influence AA's foreign relations with say QF & BA? After the merger all wou
36 WorldTraveler: CO didn't operate a hub at JFK and SJU. Which the DOJ doesn't like.. in any industry. AA didn't admit that was their intention and blamed TW's pulldo
37 Spartanmjf: And AA could have gone the Chapter 11 route along with other airlines that maintained too many hubs within ridiculously short distances - US for exam
38 Commavia: WorldTraveler's made his point. There's no use in arguing now.
39 Byrdluvs747: I'm going to use this thread(amongst others) to record my opinion that if AA decides to merge, it will be either UA or NW. The knee-jerk response from
40 Klkla: AA's debt has to be a hindrance to any merger. AA has not had the 'benefit' of a recent bankruptcy and has enormous debt compared to UA/DL/NW. If mana
42 Commavia: AA's debt really isn't that massive, at least on a relative basis, when compared with their legacy peers. As of 30 September - a few months ago, admi
43 LAXdude1023: If AA and UA merge, they will be forced to shed a big chunk of ORD. The DOT wont let one airline control ORD.
44 Breaker1011: I think that's exactly what's happening between DL and NW - egos and greed are getting in the way a bit moreso than Anderson bargained for.
45 Commavia: My modest proposal for what I think AMR management should pursue: 1) Acquire USAirways slots at New York/LaGuardia and Washington/Reagan The rationale
46 Breaker1011: Great thoughts Commavia - but a question for you: with AA already flying DFW, LAX, ORD, and JFK to Narita, and having dropped SEA, SJC in the past -
47 ElmoTheHobo: Are you going to tell me that Newark doesn't serve New York? Yes, fooled. I hear that is the business term for it. Untrue. St. Louis was their smalle
48 Commavia: They still want to expand U.S.-Narita. There's a market, and they know it. 20 years ago, maybe. Today, not so much. 777s and Open Skies have rendered
49 QQflyboy: Add to that a second daily JFK. And, don't forget, AA tried to get favorable landing slot times at NRT to start a daily 763 to HNL. In the end the ti
50 Tommy767: Yeah this merger does not make a whole lot of sense. Plus when you combine both the S80s and DC-9s it would probably make up the oldest feet age in th
51 Xaphan: For what it's worth, I have thought for decades that a great merger would be DL/CO. Both have a history of customer first, good equipment choices. The
52 PavlovsDog: In my opinion the only merger that makes sense for AA is to acquire US. - Strengthen New York LaGuardia and Washington National, rationalize aircraft
53 Moman: They don't have to do something - and if any airline does nothing, my bet is on AA. It's hard to see what they would get from NW outside of NRT. AA d
54 Chautauquasaab: I don't wonder what an A320 looks like in bare metal, I wonder what an A320 would look like with NWA's silver paint under AA's livery.
55 Incitatus: Time will tell how much Spirit can grow is FLL and whether it will become a threat to American at MIA. One thing is sure though: Spirit was a threat
56 NYCAAer: All I can say about this is an AA-NW merger would combine two very unhappy workforces and the low morale would be one big customer service nightmare.
57 Cubsrule: ...and a threat to US as well, arguably (though one might argue that the FLL idea was doomed from the start).
58 Commavia: Amen. As if the unions on AMR property weren't pissed off, bitter and aching for a fight enough as it was, I could only imagine the cluster that woul
59 MAH4546: Why doe Delta bother to match the fares from ATL? WHY? Because that's what airlines do! Spirit isn't a threat. Flying three weekly redeyes to a city
60 WingnutMN: I don't want to sound too much like a NW Homer, but why does everyone see MSP getting the boot in a AA merger? Is AA really going to be making that mu
61 EMB170: Would be interesting, especially if DL called AA's bluff and let them have NW...then AA would be stuck. Sometimes I wonder if DL's "plans to start co
62 LAXdude1023: You can think of AA like the big chip holder at a poker table who can throw their weight around for the hell of it. ] AA could bid for NW and drive t
63 EMB170: I have also said on this board that AA would need to grab those slots in order to remain competitive with any other merged larger carrier. I would ev
64 Commavia: The Q400s could do those missions fine. Some of the cities (I'm thinking MRY, SBP and FAT, especially) would need to take some frequency reduction, y
65 ElmoTheHobo: The Q400 have far lower per seat mile costs than American's Saab 340s. It'll also let them lower the number of frequencies they need on some routes,
66 QuantasA380: AA is already quite large enough. I dont think they need to merge with anyone IMHO. I also doubt the justice department would approve of an AA/?? merg
67 WorldTraveler: it's kind of hard to prove that DL intended to build a hub in FLL. They didn't commit a single aircraft to the one FLL flight they did launch. The ro
68 AA767400: Yes, along with NW,UA, and US. The only difference is that AA is in negotiations right now and the others are not. And as far as wanting to work for
69 Bobnwa: When has NWA ever said it wants to be bought? Did you make that up?
70 MoMan: Not a chance, they could have done the same thing with STL - the original idea which did not pan out, so what makes you think that MSP would work? AA
71 CIDflyer: bottom line is AA/NW has too much overlap. It kind of surprises me that people think an AA/NW combo would be better than UA/AA. AA/NW has way too much
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