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Virgin Flight Diverted To Karachi  
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5867 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8247 times:

Tail image caught in the background, photo taken by some one else, apparently ran short of fuel, going where? is it 747 or A340?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v365/PakAviator/777.jpg

[Edited 2008-02-01 08:57:09]

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUK_Dispatcher From United Arab Emirates, joined Dec 2001, 2595 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8238 times:

Well if it is an A340-600, they may have trouble with finding a towbar unless the new handling agent there can step in!

(Based on experience!!)


User currently offlineSevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8096 times:



Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
Tail image caught in the background, photo taken by some one else, apparently ran short of fuel, going where? is it 747 or A340?

It was an A340-600 en route to DEL. It got re-routed after takeoff, resulting in an increased flight time/fuel burn - hence the divert.

Regards



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 722 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7908 times:



Quoting UK_Dispatcher (Reply 1):
Well if it is an A340-600, they may have trouble with finding a towbar unless the new handling agent there can step in!

I've been in and out of KHI umpteen times and the handling there is very good. They will probably park it on an outside stand anyway if its just a refuelling flight so wont need a towbar


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5867 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7869 times:

Photo shows it at the gate.

User currently offlineKHI747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7829 times:

Wow! This is very interesting,but im surprised that a A346 could run so short on fuel on a flight which isnt exactly ULH!

Must say if i was anywhere near the airport and saw the Virgin A340-600, it would have been one heck of a surprise.When exactly did this happen?


User currently offlineSevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7689 times:



Quoting KHI747 (Reply 5):
Wow! This is very interesting,but im surprised that a A346 could run so short on fuel on a flight which isnt exactly ULH

As I mentioned earlier its not a question of "running out of fuel". There was a deviation to the flight plan after take off (very unusual) which meant an increase in the flying time, and therefore fuel burn.

The original fuel uplift and burn was consistent with the filed flight plan. The deviation was completely unforeseen. The aircraft was probably carrying about 50% of its maximum fuel capacity (I would guess @70t, give or take)

The aircraft landed mid morning and left again around midday.

Regards



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineClydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7435 times:



Quoting UK_Dispatcher (Reply 1):
Well if it is an A340-600, they may have trouble with finding a towbar unless the new handling agent there can step in!

(Based on experience!!)

Will the standard A340 towbar not do?


User currently offlineVIR744 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7063 times:

Basically no. The two types have different shear loads.

User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5715 posts, RR: 44
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6874 times:
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Quoting VIR744 (Reply 8):
Basically no. The two types have different shear loads.

I understand that but is there not a possibility of using it based on weight, I would think an A346 fuelled for KHI-DEL would not be heavier than a long haul fueled A343.

Cheers



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineSevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6047 times:



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 9):
I understand that but is there not a possibility of using it based on weight, I would think an A346 fuelled for KHI-DEL would not be heavier than a long haul fueled A343.

The load placed on the towbar and the gross weight of the aircraft are two different things. An A343 towbar cannot be used for an A346 for that reason.

In the case of diversions to airfields not equipped for A346 operations (a lot of airports still don't have airbridge gates that are marked up for A346/B773 ) the aircraft will be parked on an open stand where it can taxi away under its own power.

Occasionally this gets overlooked and towbars have had to be flown in to push the aircraft back from the stand/gate  Wink

Regards



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5906 times:

A question from a noob who doesn't know the first thing about tow bars and such but can't a 747 tow bar be used for a A346 as they seem to be equally heavy?

If not, I'm a bit surprised that there seems to be a need for so many different tow bar types to perform basically the same task.



[edit post]
User currently offlineUK_Dispatcher From United Arab Emirates, joined Dec 2001, 2595 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

The A345/A346 towbar can not be used for the A330/A342/A343. I believe the connection is different.

An EY A345 got stuck at KHI for a few hours for this reason a while ago.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5867 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5572 times:

VS A343 diverted to Lahore in Sep 2005 while also flying to DEL but due to bad weather, November of same year a 744 flew to Islamabad with earthquake relief supplies.

User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4703 times:



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 11):
A question from a noob who doesn't know the first thing about tow bars and such but can't a 747 tow bar be used for a A346 as they seem to be equally heavy?

If not, I'm a bit surprised that there seems to be a need for so many different tow bar types to perform basically the same task.

It would be nice if the 2 maunfactuers could agree on a standard based on aircraft weight categories, and certainly make movements of aircraft easier, as in the current situation with a standard tug and bar, the tug team can be pushing a 747, then later pushing an A340, but they cannot go from one to the other as they have to go swap tow bars. The new generation of TBL (tow bar less) tugs alleviate this problem somewhat though and can tow at slightly faster speeds too.

Some aircraft also require a long tow bar to give enough distance between the tug and the a/c. IIRC the 737's use quite a long bar as they are quite low down so the tug cannot get under the a/c, and needs a long bar to ensure adequate clearence between the nose and the tug, whereas on the A32X series, they are higher and the tug can get in sloser so the bar is shorter.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5715 posts, RR: 44
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4015 times:
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Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 10):
The load placed on the towbar and the gross weight of the aircraft are two different things. An A343 towbar cannot be used for an A346 for that reason.

Not quite sure I understand this but I am sure there are things that you do not understand about my field of expertise as well.

Cheers



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineKHI747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3889 times:



Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 10):
In the case of diversions to airfields not equipped for A346 operations (a lot of airports still don't have airbridge gates that are marked up for A346/B773 ) the aircraft will be parked on an open stand where it can taxi away under its own power.

Occasionally this gets overlooked and towbars have had to be flown in to push the aircraft back from the stand/gate

From the picture i can safely say the VS is not parked at an open stand and it is infact using one of the airbridges in the international terminal.Anyone who has travelled frequently in and out of KHI can easily pick that up from the picture.

Quoting UK_Dispatcher (Reply 12):
The A345/A346 towbar can not be used for the A330/A342/A343. I believe the connection is different.

An EY A345 got stuck at KHI for a few hours for this reason a while ago.

Thats very interesting,didnt know that happened.But i would imagine in the time in between CAA in KHI must have acquired the right towbar otherwise they would'nt have parked the A346 at an airbridge after that past experience.But if A346 uses the same towbar as the B773 then i dont see why there ever should have been a problem considering the B773 is a regular visitor to KHI and has been for a few years.


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4342 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3861 times:



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 11):
If not, I'm a bit surprised that there seems to be a need for so many different tow bar types to perform basically the same task.

Same here, just the same problem with vacuumcleaners wastebags or mobile chargers where every brand has a different one and you can't interchange.  banghead  Why can't they decide on a standard like they did with DVDs, like 3 different ones for commuter, mid size and heavies?



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineSevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3668 times:



Quoting KHI747 (Reply 16):
In the case of diversions to airfields not equipped for A346 operations (a lot of airports still don't have airbridge gates that are marked up for A346/B773 ) the aircraft will be parked on an open stand where it can taxi away under its own power.

Occasionally this gets overlooked and towbars have had to be flown in to push the aircraft back from the stand/gate

From the picture i can safely say the VS is not parked at an open stand and it is infact using one of the airbridges in the international terminal.Anyone who has travelled frequently in and out of KHI can easily pick that up from the picture.

My response was supposed to be a broader one, to give a picture of what can happen when an A346 diverts to a non standard airport. As you say it is clear that the VS A346 is at an airbridge equipped gate (and I've never been to KHI) so they obviously have A345/6 towbars.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 16):
But if A346 uses the same towbar as the B773 then i dont see why there ever should have been a problem considering the B773 is a regular visitor to KHI and has been for a few years.

They have different towbars. The B773/A346 share similar stand dimension requirements but thats about it.

Regards



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3591 times:



Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 18):
so they obviously have A345/6 towbars

Unless they have TBL tugs, then they could get away without one  Wink

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineSevenHeavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3545 times:



Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 19):
Unless they have TBL tugs, then they could get away without one

You got me  Wink



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3438 times:



Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 10):
In the case of diversions to airfields not equipped for A346 operations (a lot of airports still don't have airbridge gates that are marked up for A346/B773 ) the aircraft will be parked on an open stand where it can taxi away under its own power.

Occasionally this gets overlooked and towbars have had to be flown in to push the aircraft back from the stand/gate

I've been on a CO aircraft (probably 20 years ago now) which moved back from the stand using reverse thrust - can't remember where. Is this not preferable to having to fly in a towbar? Or are there reasons why this is not a common practice?



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineCjbmibe From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

I can safely say that all manufacturers have different tow bar hook up systems for each family due to the requirements.

A BBD Dash has two bits poking out either side of the nose gear which the towbar connects to.
An EMB 14x has two pins on the towbar that lock horizontally into the nose gear.
The A320 family towbar clips onto the nose gear upwards.
I've forgotten properly the 737 towbar but I think its just a clip downwards onto the nose gear.

Theres no way a towbar from Boeing could ever be used on an Airbus and vice versa, plus then the towbars are made for a specific weight of the aircraft so an A320 bar wouldnt be strong enough to fit an A340, even if they did make the connections the same.

I would imagine that as a potential diversion airport for the 345/6 aircraft that even without regular services they would have one or more suitable towbars. BHD has CRJ and Fokker 100 towbars, yet its been years from we've had scheduled CRJ ops and only once in a blue moon AB used it but they've now gone anyway.

Then they could have just used a TBL Tug instead.



How can I soar like an Eagle when I have to work with these turkeys?
User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3305 times:



Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 21):
Or are there reasons why this is not a common practice?

It is an extremely difficult manouvre to perform as there is a risk of tipping the a/c onto the tail if not performed correctly. It is normally limited to a/c with rear mounted engines to avoid FOD ingestion when the engines are wound up to the power levels required to get the a/c to move.

Also with wing mounted engines, there is more of a risk of blowing equipment/personnel over on the ramp, which is far too hazerdous. A majority of a/c actually have towing eyes on the back of the main gear that allows chains to be connected so they can be pulled out of the mud/snow etc. if they get stuck, but again this wouldn't normally be used in day to day ops.

The 747 also has a connection on the rear of the nosewheel that can allow a pushback tug to hook up underneath the a/c to get more traction on slippery surfaces, but again this is not often used due to the risks of damaging the a/c if not done correctly.


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Photo © Christian Ettelt



 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineKHI747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1616 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3186 times:



Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 18):
My response was supposed to be a broader one, to give a picture of what can happen when an A346 diverts to a non standard airport. As you say it is clear that the VS A346 is at an airbridge equipped gate (and I've never been to KHI) so they obviously have A345/6 towbars.

Oh dont get me wrong,i knew you were'nt implying that KHI was a non standard airport.I just wanted to highlight one point to the readers incase anyone assumed the VS A346 was at a remote stand in KHI.



Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 18):
They have different towbars. The B773/A346 share similar stand dimension requirements but thats about it.

Thanks for the clarification.


User currently offlinePa747sp From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3168 times:



Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 21):
I've been on a CO aircraft (probably 20 years ago now)

CO did lots of non-standard things 20 years ago....

I had heard that it had been done in the US, but that it was now banned, due to the dangers involved.



Nothing seems as good since the VC10.
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