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Boeing Beefs Up 787 Program  
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8867 posts, RR: 75
Posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14223 times:

Boeing announced moving more experienced managers onto the 787 program.

from http://www.latimes.com/technology/la...,1,234570.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

"Two key Boeing Co. defense executives have been quietly transferred to the troubled 787 jetliner program, suggesting that problems with developing the plane could be worse than the company has revealed."

"Problems are more severe than Boeing is letting on," said Scott Hamilton, an aviation consultant in Issaquah, Wash. "I suspect there will be more delays."

"The two executives are John Van Gels, who was head of operations and supplier management for Boeing's Integrated Defense Systems, and Howard Chambers, who ran the company's Space and Intelligence Systems business, which includes the satellite-making operations in El Segundo."


We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14173 times:

Transferring executives to and fro is a band aid. The solution to the 787s woes in the immediate future is in the hands of Boeing's (under appreciated) work force. I've been an advocate for a long term labor contract for a long time. Time to guarantee labor peace for the next 7 years with a mutually beneficial contract, bring more of the 787 work "in house". I'm of the opinion that the 787 manufacturing model will work, despite the kinks, but the prime (in this case Boeing) surrendered too much control to the sub contractors.

What does one do in the case of a sub having "issues"? Everybody's sorry, but the ripples are felt throughout the entire project.

I can't help thinking that there is more to these delays than meets the eye, or has been publicly released. I hope some insiders can disabuse me of this notion.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14139 times:

The LA Times is just as much of a rag as the Washington Post or NY Times is. They never print the full story.

Quoting Zeke (Thread starter):
"Problems are more severe than Boeing is letting on," said Scott Hamilton, an aviation consultant in Issaquah, Wash. "I suspect there will be more delays."

How does Mr. Hamilton know this?

Quoting Zeke (Thread starter):
"The two executives are John Van Gels, who was head of operations and supplier management for Boeing's Integrated Defense Systems, and Howard Chambers, who ran the company's Space and Intelligence Systems business, which includes the satellite-making operations in El Segundo."

Could Mr. Van Gels be moved around because the C-17 program may be winding down? I don't know anything about Mr. Chambers or the El Segundo satellite making operations as far as their order back log is.


User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14106 times:



Quoting Zeke (Thread starter):

"Problems are more severe than Boeing is letting on," said Scott Hamilton, an aviation consultant in Issaquah, Wash. "I suspect there will be more delays."

How far behind schedule are they now?

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):

I can't help thinking that there is more to these delays than meets the eye, or has been publicly released. I hope some insiders can disabuse me of this notion.

Well they have to get everything right. Brand new manufacturing, materials etc. Even a couple more months is better that a couple of years.

regards


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8867 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14063 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
How does Mr. Hamilton know this?

He did use the term "I suspect", you can always contact him via leeham.net and ask him yourself.

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 3):

Well they have to get everything right. Brand new manufacturing, materials etc. Even a couple more months is better that a couple of years

 checkmark 



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3392 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14032 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
What does one do in the case of a sub having "issues"? Everybody's sorry, but the ripples are felt throughout the entire project.

I agree, this is the real issue. Its not Boineg that dropped the ball, but it still dropped the whole program in the pot. It was Boeing's job to make sure all the subs didn't drop the ball, but its gets a bit hard to do this period.



My question is, should they keep chasing LN1 down the hand built route, or should they be working on getting LN2 done right the first time and just rolling LN1 over to the flight museum


User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13927 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
The LA Times is just as much of a rag as the Washington Post or NY Times is. They never print the full story.

Yet, the Washington Post and NYT are among the most respected newspapers in the world. So must have quite superior knowledge to dismiss them in such a bold way. Congratulations!


User currently onlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5732 posts, RR: 48
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13724 times:

At the enterance to the 787 Final Assmbly area there is a sign that says "Enter Here."

Someone told me that some joker altered the sign to read "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here".


Priceless!



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13657 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Transferring executives to and fro is a band aid.

Yes and no. We experienced the same phenomenon, and found that beefing up the management team with the right people allowed the existing management team to keep their heads down and fight the demons from the door each day, whilst the (our term) red team kept their heads up, and plotted the medium and long-term solutions.

They also held our feet to the fire over re-programming (to prevent continuing over-optimism). There was blood and tears, but it did work (IMO)

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
I'm of the opinion that the 787 manufacturing model will work, despite the kinks, but the prime (in this case Boeing) surrendered too much control to the sub contractors.

Point of order - as far as I'm aware, the first tiers on this programme are "partners", as opposed to "subbies" per-se

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
What does one do in the case of a sub having "issues"?

Depends on the contract conditions (see above), and Boeing's long-term strategic objectives.
It may be that Boeing took the supply-chain "devolution" a step too far in one go, but if risk sharing/reduction is still a long-term Boeing objective, they may be as well grit their teeth and offer every help possible until it comes right.
The likes of Vought and Alenia aren't just nut and bolt commodity suppliers - they're top class aerospace companies.
Pissing on them from a great height may not be the most "astute" business move in the long term.

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 3):
Well they have to get everything right. Brand new manufacturing, materials etc. Even a couple more months is better that a couple of years.

True, but a couple of years didn't kill Airbus, and it won't kill Boeing.
And as they say, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger  Smile

Regards


User currently offlineDrExotica From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13590 times:



Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 6):
Yet, the Washington Post and NYT are among the most respected newspapers in the world. So must have quite superior knowledge to dismiss them in such a bold way. Congratulations!

I'll side with KC135TopBoom on this one. The NYT and WP are only respected among a certain segment as they tend to be fairly liberal in their reporting and particularly on their editorial pages. Same can be said for the LA Times. From my perspective, the Wall Street Journal is much more credible.

Rabenschlag - have you ever subscribed to either paper (or read them on a daily basis)? I have been a subscriber; in fact, each of the four at one time or another.



N707PA - Best looking commercial aircraft ever.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13380 times:



Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 6):
Yet, the Washington Post and NYT are among the most respected newspapers in the world.

By who?

Quoting DrExotica (Reply 9):
The NYT and WP are only respected among a certain segment as they tend to be fairly liberal in their reporting and particularly on their editorial pages. Same can be said for the LA Times. From my perspective, the Wall Street Journal is much more credible.

Well said!


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30572 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13172 times:
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She flies when she flies and airlines will wait.

Ten years from now, when it's the most popular widebody airliner ever and is halfway to the 737 and A320 in sales, this will just be an interesting historical anecdote and a best-selling book.



[Edited 2008-02-02 08:35:21]

User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12995 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):

She flies when she flies and airlines will wait.

Ten years from now, when it's the most popular widebody airliner ever and is halfway to the 737 and A320 in sales, this will just be an interesting historical anecdote and a best-selling book.

Don't forget the A380 as well!
 Wink


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30572 posts, RR: 84
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12738 times:
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Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 12):
Don't forget the A380 as well!  Wink

Please refer to this post 747-8 Overweight? (by Cleanskies Jan 31 2008 in Civil Aviation) for my views on that.  wave 


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12390 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12336 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
The LA Times is just as much of a rag as the Washington Post or NY Times is. They never print the full story.

Is it the LA Times you don't like, or the message they're giving?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
How does Mr. Hamilton know this?

That's his analysis of the situation. That's his job.

It seems some don't like the message and feel the desire to shoot the messenger.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30572 posts, RR: 84
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12102 times:
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Quoting Scbriml (Reply 14):
It seems some don't like the message and feel the desire to shoot the messenger.

I don't like the fact that too many people here focus on the negatives and ignore the positives.

Right now, I expect a whole lot of people on this forum are smiling, thinking "Yay! These guys are proof the 787 program is totally hopeless! The 787 will be delayed for years! Boeing sucks! Woo-hoo!"

Right now, I expect a whole lot of people in airline HQs are smiling, thinking "Yay! These guys successfully took situations that were totally fracked-up and turned them around. Our first planes may be delayed a bit longer, but our later planes will not be delayed as much, if at all, and may even arrive earlier as production smoothly ramps. Woo-hoo!"

I see this as a good sign. Boeing is putting people with proven track records in fixing production, supplier, and development issues. These people will offer much stronger and accurate input on just how bad things are and how long it will take to fix them. Airlines are going to be very happy with "hard data", even if it means additional delays, because they can firmly plan now for when they will get their planes.

And these people, once they square the production line away, will be in a solid position to oversee the production ramp.



What really "grinds my gears" is that people have learned nothing from the A380 program. Airbus had to strip those planes and re-build them and they did so. And as soon as they documented on how to do it on the first few, it greatly sped up how quickly they could do it on the remaining ones. And the production line, which was totally stalled as suppliers stopped production because of the delays, are now working back to full levels and within two years will be pushing out four of these behemoths a month.

Boeing will lick this problem, and soon rather then later. The first 787 will lift into the brilliant blue skies of the Pacific Northwest and due a few laps around Mt. Rainier and scores of her sisters will be rolling out of 40-26 and onto the flight-line. It will be a spotters delight.

On that, you can be quite assured.


User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12018 times:

Although these kinds of changes can raise eybrows/concerns, it can also mean the people providing oversight can be on the ground at the problem sites fixing multiple issues at the same time and/or fixing issues potentially quicker than one person could.

Boeing is obviously working to do what it can to get things fixed asap, for better or for worse the A380 program is a prime example of what they don't want. So fix it now, fix it fast and lets get moving again.


User currently offlineAircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1710 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11929 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
It will be a spotters delight.

On that, you can be quite assured.

"Hey, look! Another 787!!!"

I agree with you that it could well be good news in disguise, though. The trouble-free introduction (as of yet) of the A380 is a demonstration of how a nightmarish moment can bring something good, at last.


User currently offlineWorldrider From Switzerland, joined Nov 2007, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11884 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 10):

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 6):
Yet, the Washington Post and NYT are among the most respected newspapers in the world.

By who?

by most journalists.


User currently offlineAApilot2b From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 572 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11653 times:

By the title of this thread, I was expecting something news worthy and a lot less speculative. However, not only was the article blocked from access, but the agency responsible for the article is one hardly worthy of reliable news. The LA Times can hardly be considered a credible source of aviation news. In fact, its not even a credible source for non biased news. One might as well be quoting The National Enquirer.

All said, I look forward to actually getting something on the 787 that isn't a bunch of speculation and actually contains some fact.


User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9977 posts, RR: 96
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11656 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
Boeing is putting people with proven track records in fixing production, supplier, and development issues. These people will offer much stronger and accurate input on just how bad things are and how long it will take to fix them. Airlines are going to be very happy with "hard data", even if it means additional delays, because they can firmly plan now for when they will get their planes.

 checkmark 
Agree completely, Stitch.
With the added aspect that those right people can inprove customer confidence just by their presence.

Regards


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4696 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11592 times:
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Quoting DrExotica (Reply 9):
The NYT and WP are only respected among a certain segment as they tend to be fairly liberal in their reporting and particularly on their editorial pages. Same can be said for the LA Times. From my perspective, the Wall Street Journal is much more credible.

almost every paper has a certain political slant, however that doesn't mean the news reported is wrong. If the Seattle Times reported this would you believe it or disregard it as it certainly more "liberal" than the WSJ.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9497 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11089 times:



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
At the enterance to the 787 Final Assmbly area there is a sign that says "Enter Here."

Someone told me that some joker altered the sign to read "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here".

I don't know if that is true, but I think it's pretty funny. There's nothing wrong with a sense of humor.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10533 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
On that, you can be quite assured.

Agree with you absolutely Stitch, and I don't think anyone ever doubted it.
IMO though, what causes a bit of 'resentment' (for want of perhaps a better word) is the fact that the same members who repeatedly dogged and lambasted the A380 delays, blatantly refuse to accept any kind of news even remotely indicating any type of, or reason for, a 787 delay.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30572 posts, RR: 84
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 10077 times:
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Quoting AirNZ (Reply 23):
IMO though, what causes a bit of 'resentment' (for want of perhaps a better word) is the fact that the same members who repeatedly dogged and lambasted the A380 delays, blatantly refuse to accept any kind of news even remotely indicating any type of, or reason for, a 787 delay.

Yeah. But we also have A380 and Airbus fans who now go out of their way to find any issue they can with the 787. And now the A350 is starting to get dragged through the mud. When does it end?

I am a very big fan of Ed Stroligo's computer commentary, but this entry applies equally well here, I believe...


25 Pnwtraveler : Stitch I think some people must live in very small worlds. They need to play sports or something to get out their agressions rather than vent it on he
26 AirNZ : Yep, fully agree with you, and certainly a vaild point. Wish it would end instead of sometimes being like a kindergarten playground (actually, they m
27 GoAllegheny : First, the staff of the LA Times have won at least 24 Pulitizer prizes for journalism since 1980. So yes, the LA Times is a good paper. Doesn't mean i
28 Post contains links TUIflyer : 'Boeing has quietly announced that it has added two experienced executives from it's defense department to bolster the leadership of the delayed 787 p
29 Post contains images Stitch : If someone doesn't like Boeing or Airbus as a company, or one of their products, or the business case for one of their products, they should be allow
30 474218 : Certainly not the public as their circulation is at an all time low and falling.
31 Post contains images EA772LR : Well said Stitch It's amazing how fast all the negative talk of the A380 being a failure has stopped now that she's in service and the numbers show h
32 Trex8 : along with just about every other major paper in a major city! just read my morning local paper- Chicago Trib. there is a Bloomberg story in it about
33 Scbriml : It's a good thing that Boeing is putting more top people on the job, but they do lay themselves open to the interpretation that things are even worse
34 Stitch : I think it is a case of Shanahan now having a proper and solid idea of just how messed-up everything is and has convinced more senior Boeing managemen
35 Post contains images Pianos101 : L/N 1 still needs to be completely finished as contractually it is ANA'a airplane. They know that that the way this airplane is being assembled is no
36 Halls120 : No one will be. The purpose of this thread, and the others like it, is just payback by certain Airbus supporters for all the negativity heaped upon A
37 Alessandro : Well, it shows for sure how difficult it is today to build a significant better airplane than the current models, took Airbus a real effort to beat th
38 RedChili : A very good summary of what many a.net threads have turned out to be! Somebody will, believe me. I've seen many threads where people are talking abou
39 PlaneInsomniac : How so? The OP relayed some news about an aviation-related topic to a.net, without further comment. That is absolutely legitimate and, as a matter of
40 Halls120 : Harsh? No, just my opinion. Are you going to deny that many well-intentioned threads have been hijacked and have devolved into A and B bashing? Besid
41 PlaneInsomniac : I am sorry, but you are absolutely overreacting here. How is a thread titled "Boeing Beefs Up 787 Program" supposed to be flamebait? If it were calle
42 Glideslope : LOL, you obviously spend no time in the US.
43 Post contains images WingedMigrator : There's no sense in fighting human nature. We are tribal creatures, and that's that. Boeing, Airbus... Ford, Chevy... Coke, Pepsi... whatever. May I
44 ComeAndGo : In the moment you and everyone here starts ignoring Bullshit posts. Stop supporting these idiots.
45 Post contains links Zeke : The purpose of this thread was to inform people of further progress with the 787, all I said was "Boeing announced moving more experienced managers o
46 Woosie : JJ Van Gels was the head of production at McDonnell-Douglas (DAC), back when were producing MD-80/90 and MD-11 airplanes. He knows Commercial practice
47 Pianos101 : True, to a point. Boeing and ANA signed a contract saying that ANA's first airplane will be delivered by a certain date, and guaranteed this date is
48 Babybus : Not sure "beefs up" is the correct title for this thread. Surely "sorts out" is more accurate.
49 Art : When Airbus and Boeing stop designing and making aircraft or people/folks contributing to a.net stop being so partisan in their approach. Can't read
50 GREATANSETT : As much as i am saddened that the 787 program is delayed, it just goes to show what goes round comes around. When Airbus was having problems with the
51 Flybyguy : Delays in the 787 program are absolutely irrelevant. The plane is the most revolutionary airliner ever built and the most fuel efficient in its size c
52 Flighty : Not just a.netters, but Boeing itself. Boeing loudly trumpeted that "we are smarter" and created a ridiculously compressed time schedule for the 787,
53 MCIGuy : I really hate to play devil's advocate here, but has anyone considered that the 787 just flat might not work, that it may actually end up a failure? T
54 Zeke : From what I have seen I am confident it will work, give it time, let it settle in, and all will be forgotten.
55 Beaucaire : I'm afraid I don't share your enthusiasm and negligence of customer-reactions to the 787 delays. There are obviously financial penalties involved whi
56 Glideslope : Vastly exaggerated. Boeing was very restrained during the famous 380 wiring debacle. If anything there were a few responses to Mr. Leahy comments. Bo
57 BrianDromey : I dont think that is entirely fair, and such comments have not been seen here RE:787. Indeed the reaction to the delays on the 787 have been several
58 Halls120 : Perhaps I was overreaching by posting my comments on this particular thread, which, to the credit of all so far, hasn't devolved into a flamefest. An
59 OA260 : Totally agree. The number of threads slamming the A380 and people saying the program should be scrapped was huge !!! Its been very quiet since now th
60 Swissy : Good to see Boeing is "beefing" up. The 787 will fly that is for sure, no one can deny that..... it is just a question of how much extra $$$ they have
61 Astuteman : Its about as premature to say Airbus have "failed" with the A380 as it is to say Boeing have "failed" with the 787....... For what its worth, I'm fai
62 AirNZ : Firstly, I am most certainly no 787 or Boeing basher and, as an aviation enthusiast, I love every plane ever built for what it is....an aircraft! How
63 Post contains images Astuteman : However, if I recall correctly, some of the largest charges taken by Airbus on the A380 were as a result of having to manually re-work about 15 frame
64 Stitch : That is very unlikely at this time. About the only way the 787 program can fail is if one of the planes breaks-up in mid-flight soon after EIS due to
65 AirNZ : Ah! I think you're perhaps misunderstanding my comments. I never remotely said Boeing shouldn't do it, and of course that's the whole concept of evol
66 Post contains images Stitch : That comment was directed at the A330 family, not the 787.
67 RedChili : Many threads have been hijacked, yes, I agree with that. But that's something totally different than your language in reply 36: "The purpose of this
68 Swissy : Exactly, B is now about 10/12 month behind ?? so far B has not proven that ONCE production has "started", "delays only" will occur up to frame #...,
69 Stitch : Once Boeing knows how to build LN001 they know how to build every other 787. They have, at least, the advantage in not having multiple assembly model
70 Pianos101 : Not true. the fueslages are supposed to come to everett already installed with various systems (wiring, hydraulics, etc). Boeing's plan was to not do
71 Sxf24 : How do you know none of this would have happened with Mullally at the helm? He was leading BCA when the partners were chosen, the production methods
72 Stitch : True, but all the Production Certificate does is prove that you can demonstrate that you have the facilities, equipment and quality-assurance process
73 Dehavalandb : When we see the 787 lift off into the crystal blue skies of the Pacific Northwest and see the morning sun glint off the smooth, lightweight, and enorm
74 Post contains images Pianos101 : I completely agree. But in the end L/N 1, even though it was supposed, still won't be a good "gauge" of how they will put the aircraft together. Let'
75 CuriousFlyer : Long live Boeing indeed because at the moment this airplane seems nowhere close to lifting off...
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