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BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 9  
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 25311 times:
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Looks like you guys still arguing about it! So here is the next part...

Continuation of: BA 777 Off Runway At LHR - Part 8 (by Srbmod Jan 24 2008 in Civil Aviation)

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 


It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
171 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAdriaticus From Mexico, joined May 2004, 1137 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 25275 times:

All this discussion is dizzying now... Would there be an altruistic fellow a.nutter or operator out there who could outline, in a nutshell, what seems at the moment to be the cause of the incident?

__Ad.



A300/18/19/20/21 B721/2 B732/3/G/8 B741/2/4 B752 B762/3/4 B772/3 DC8/9/10 MD11 TU134/154 IL62/86 An24 SA340/2000 E45/90
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 25267 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 1):
All this discussion is dizzying now... Would there be an altruistic fellow a.nutter or operator out there who could outline, in a nutshell, what seems at the moment to be the cause of the incident?

__Ad.

Just wait until the final report will be published! Until then: its only speculation! Thats why I never take part of those discussions in here... And I am a Pilot, I should know what to talk about Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 25257 times:

Quoting AndrewUber:
Thanks Joe. It looks like they may have updated their report, because now it says:

"Airplane damage: Substantial"

Actually, if you select Database and then 'Boeing 777', it lists it as a hull-loss incident.

-JPH

[Edited 2008-02-04 10:33:33]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1586 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 25081 times:

And now for something different . . .

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...+victims+sue+for+trauma/article.do

Yes, it had to happen, even though there was only one 'serious' leg injury, and so many passengers at the time
felt it was just like a normal landing . . .

[Edited 2008-02-04 11:12:17]


Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6907 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 25048 times:



Quoting Carduelis (Reply 4):
Yes, it had to happen, even though there was only one 'serious' leg injury, and so many passengers at the time felt is was just like a normal landing . . .

This rush to sue whenever something happens is sickening. No matter what BA does some lawyer will find fault with it, and in that find a way to extract extravagant sums as a result. This results in higher insurance premiums and consequently higher prices to all of us. Why don't they just buy lottery tickets instead?



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineE195 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 25005 times:
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hmm to be honest i think some people are just clutching at straws.
remember they are the ones who saw the landing as 'normal' but 'rough'.

i will admit though i still dont really know how or what to feel (if anything).
Looking back, (and going to mytrle ave last week) i actually realise how f***ing close the a/c was to the road and how the outcomecould have been so much different.
But it wasn't, everyone walked (hobbled) away and the evecuation/rescuse from the airport fire etc was successful



Nikon D90 & D50 Sigma 70-300mm, 50-500 mm Lens :) oh yea Baby!
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 24906 times:

News for today is that the 777 is written off.

Quote:
The airline said that the 777-200ER involved in the emergency landing at LHR last month (ATWOnline, Jan. 25) has been written off, with the insurance claim "agreed in full" and no "material effect" on the company's financial performance

The airline said that the 777-200ER involved in the emergency landing at LHR last month (ATWOnline, Jan. 25) has been written off, with the insurance claim "agreed in full" and no "material effect" on the company's financial performance



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 24858 times:



Quoting E195 (Reply 6):

E195 do you have links to more picture of the accident? i have seen two of them, but if you know of more I would appreciate if you could provide a link.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10735 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 24838 times:



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 7):
News for today is that the 777 is written off.

Anything else would have been a majpr surprise. Who wants to take the risk to repair and to fly in an aircraft of which both wings and engines are basically destroyed and its belly and fuselage pierced and ripped open.


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 24762 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 9):
Anything else would have been a majpr surprise

Not really a surprise. But sometimes it is hard to tell the amount of damage from pictures, and allot of members have wondered about this, so I thought it would be a good idea to post the statement once again.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineE195 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 24712 times:
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Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8):
E195 do you have links to more picture of the accident? i have seen two of them, but if you know of more I would appreciate if you could provide a link.

Sadly the papers have not put the full sequence up. There are 30 in total. Hopefully when the full report comes out, other publications will publish them.



Nikon D90 & D50 Sigma 70-300mm, 50-500 mm Lens :) oh yea Baby!
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2751 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 24624 times:



Quoting E195 (Reply 11):
Sadly the papers have not put the full sequence up. There are 30 in total. Hopefully when the full report comes out, other publications will publish them.

I hope so. It is like a horror moment looking at those pictures. It is almost like being there at impact. I am impressed that you stayed focused enough to get the pictures. I hope I never sees anything like that live.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1985 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 24552 times:

Does anyone know if the FDR or the CVR are going to be released soon? It would be interesting to listen to the event taking place.


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineE195 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 191 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 24490 times:
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Quoting OyKIE (Reply 12):
I hope so. It is like a horror moment looking at those pictures. It is almost like being there at impact. I am impressed that you stayed focused enough to get the pictures. I hope I never sees anything like that live.

it was very scary watching it to be honest, (ive not been offered councilling... lol)
Im very impressed the i managed to keep it in focus... lol

I know many here would have loved to have been there, i was just the 'lucky' one to thankfully see everyone get out alive



Nikon D90 & D50 Sigma 70-300mm, 50-500 mm Lens :) oh yea Baby!
User currently offlineGlbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 730 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 24465 times:



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 13):
Does anyone know if the FDR or the CVR are going to be released soon? It would be interesting to listen to the event taking place.

In today's lawsuit happy world, I suppose anything is possible, but I'd be surprised if anything other than a summary of key events appears in an open publication. Especially as there were no fatalities and so far, no indication that the crew did anything wrong.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 24225 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 9):
Who wants to take the risk to repair and to fly in an aircraft of which both wings and engines are basically destroyed and its belly and fuselage pierced and ripped open.

It looked eminently repairable, just not economically so. The engine and gear damage is irrelevant from a repair standpoint since you'd just replace both. Much worse fuselage damage has been repaired (a lot of the damage is the wing-body fairing, not the fuselage itself).

The wing is the big mystery...not much of the damage appears to be to the wing box, most of it seems to be the trailing edge (which is mostly non-structural).

Tom.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 24061 times:



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 13):
Does anyone know if the FDR or the CVR are going to be released soon? It would be interesting to listen to the event taking place.

Typically this doesn't happen. Most recordings you see online were leaked originally. Also without the requisite software the FDR wouldn't be much use.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9101 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 23930 times:

from the previous thread...

Quoting Starglider (Reply 251):
RAD ALT system has redundancy, 3 tranceivers (each with a transmit and receive anttenna), interfaced to several systems through ARINC 429 and the 2 AIMS cabinets monitor RAD ALT status. But what if the RAD ALT receive and transmit antennae were corrupted by a freak RFI signal? Highly unlikely but for RAD ALT to fail completely the source causing total failure would have to affect 3 separate transceivers.

Same question could be applicable to the air / ground system, what if it failed somehow (weight-on-wheel) and went from air to ground mode?

I know of several multiple concurrent RAD ALT failures on Airbus aircraft, and I know the procedure, I don't know the procedure or result on a 777, I have looked at the FCOM, QRH, & DDG.

I am not suggesting that this is a cause, just another angle that could be looked at, another system if unserviceable that can effect engine performance.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 252):
From the 744 QRH

>SNGL SOURCE RA

Condition: Both pilots' displays referenced to the same radio
altimeter receiver.

Only get a EICAS message and the switching occurs automatically.

Phil, exactly the same on the 777. But unlike the 744, from what I understand for a manual landing at 25 ft RA the auto throttle will reduce thrust to IDLE.

"When the autothrottle is used during a manual landing, thrust reduces to IDLE at 25 feet radio altitude when the flight director is off or the pitch mode is V/S, FPA, G/S or any VNAV mode (VNAV SPD, VNAV PTH, or VNAV ALT). The autothrottle does not automatically retard if the pitch mode is TO/GA or FLCH."

The 777 FCOM/QRH does not say what happens if you have a total failure of the RAD ALT, from what I can see, no EICAS is associated with it, and no procedure exists for it. On the bus you will remember when this happens you go into direct law for the landing, the auto thrust will not do a thrust reduction.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 16):
It looked eminently repairable, just not economically so. The engine and gear damage is irrelevant from a repair standpoint since you'd just replace both. Much worse fuselage damage has been repaired (a lot of the damage is the wing-body fairing, not the fuselage itself).

Would love to see what the g loading was on landing, I suspect it was up around 3.5-4g, and I suspect more damage occurred than what is visible, for fuel to be leaking, indicates some for of rupture of the tank.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 23635 times:



Quoting Zeke (Reply 18):
I am not suggesting that this is a cause, just another angle that could be looked at, another system if unserviceable that can effect engine performance.

Either way, if mentioned systems (RAD ALT and specifically air / ground system) were affected, my hunch is that the ground spoilers would have deployed assuming SOP would have the spoilers armed in the approach phase. If that had happened the plane would not have landed where it did.

I agree, if another system were unserviceable, with so many systems communicating with each other, there is a possibility of one system upsetting another, creating a domino effect. Too many to point a finger to and single one out without knowing the facts.


Starglider


User currently offlineSilverfox From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1058 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 23536 times:

The American Sue Culture in UK...

a quote from a passenger

Sales manager Lukasz Pilarczyk, 26, said: "I fear I will never fly again. I can't imagine a time when I can get back in a plane. After we evacuated, we were around 50 metres
from the plane for about 15 minutes. I thought that if the plane exploded we would all die."


Excuse me, if i thought that, i would have been standing in Hounslow High street.
What a klutz


User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2225 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 23492 times:



Quoting Starglider (Reply 19):
Either way, if mentioned systems (RAD ALT and specifically air / ground system) were affected, my hunch is that the ground spoilers would have deployed assuming SOP would have the spoilers armed in the approach phase. If that had happened the plane would not have landed where it did.

If (any) false input data caused auto throttle to go idle this condition surely could be overridden by manually applying thrust.
But the condition could not be overridden by doing so -> thus false input data (RA or ground contact detection) were not the reason IMO.


User currently offlineTepidHalibut From Iceland, joined Dec 2004, 209 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 23467 times:



Quoting Silverfox (Reply 20):
a quote from a passenger

Sales manager Lukasz Pilarczyk, 26...

Seems like this person is a serial whinger. Previously, "Once we were in the airport a staff member told me I should count myself lucky I was alive and my luggage was not important. It was not nice," he said. "It's not my problem they crashed their plane."

http://www.driffieldtoday.co.uk/news...in-Heathrow-crash-tells.3698144.jp

( Also contains the classic Numptyism ""I do not consider myself lucky. I paid for a flight, not for a crash" )


User currently offlineMax777geek From Italy, joined Mar 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 23428 times:



Quoting TepidHalibut (Reply 22):
"It's not my problem they crashed their plane."

It is, if you're inside that plane.  yes 


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9101 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 23402 times:



Quoting Starglider (Reply 19):
ground spoilers would have deployed assuming SOP

When spoilers are in the ARMED position, the speedbrake lever is driven aft to the UP position when the landing gear is fully on the ground (not tilted) and the thrust levers are at idle, it has nothing to do with RAD ALT. It can as you suggest be a fault of the air/ground sensing system, that receives air/ground logic signals from sensors located on each main
landing gear beam, but you would also need thrust levers at IDLE.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
25 Starlionblue : Yeah no kidding. Unfortunately I predict that your argument won't help the defense at all. ?
26 SEPilot : This is the key; but I'm sure there is also the thought that people will be reluctant to fly on a plane that has previously crashed, whether or not i
27 Markyboy : A "Numpty" is a coloquial UK term for an idiot, therefore "Numptyism" would be, by my reckoning the art of acting like an idiot. There's another coup
28 Starlionblue : Possibly. Then again how the heck would they know? Your average flier doesn't even know what kind of plane it is.
29 Max777geek : Even if announced, wouldn't be the plane succesfully coming from somewhere else in the previous leg and many before ?
30 AA777 : Regarding the lawsuit... How silly. I'm sure most of the people on that plane now have severe anxieties about flying. Surprise. The fact that nobody
31 Starlionblue : He'll probably get both. I don't want to be too crass here, but if I knew I could get a few million sterling by whining a bit, I might be inclined to
32 Spacecadet : That's about the least rational answer for an irrational fear. Because all planes that have ever crashed completed many successful previous legs befo
33 Post contains images SEPilot : Some a-netter will inform him.
34 Max777geek : Yeah, right. Nobody wants to take a plane at its second takeoff if the first ended with a crash landing.
35 RedFlyer : People won't know. If BA had decided to put the plane back in service, they probably would've changed the registry and no one, except for a few A-nut
36 Starglider : Indeed, if all worked as advertised but something(s) did not. Auto throttle responded as anticipated and engines initially responded but rolled back
37 TWAL1011727 : Obviously Delta. They had an MD88 slide down a runway at LGA after ripping its gears off and it is still flying today. It took over 7 months to repai
38 LHR27C : I rather doubt that. The whole case has had a huge amount of media coverage in the UK and the press, whatever else they may be, aren't completely stu
39 Starlionblue : They would know it when reading the paper. Knowing it when they step on the plane is another thing.
40 Panman : Traceable through the CAA website though..................
41 Starlionblue : Yet another thing your average pax would never do.
42 Mhodgson : I suspect most average pax don't even know the registration - Not once did I see it referred to in news reports, and I highly doubt anyone took note o
43 Dragon6172 : Maybe just severe anxieties about landing?
44 Rbgso : So true. I remember the Shuttle America (E170, I think) plane that went off the runway in Cleveland last year. I thought that would be a writeoff, bu
45 Litz : Delta also repaired, and returned to service, the MD88 that had the uncontained fan disc failure (and that one DID result in two fatalities). I don't
46 Tdscanuck : Yes, but that's true for virtually every repair and maintenance procedure in aviation. The point still stands that it's technically possible to safet
47 Post contains images AndrewUber : Correct: N914DL (Landing incident at LGA Oct 19, 1996): N927DL (Uncontained engine failure at PNS July 6, 1996):
48 BlackProjects : G-YMMM is going to be a Bin liner Job. As part of the body skin was crumpled and Holed by the main gear, Also the under side of the wings and Body got
49 Zeke : I also hear the center fuel tank ended up with some landing gear in it.
50 Osiris30 : Nothing crass about the statement.. greedy, selfish and generally lacking in a 'big picture' view, but not crass.
51 Post contains links and images Silver1SWA : View Large View MediumPhoto © Gabriel Widyna is now View Large View MediumPhoto © Manas Barooah
52 Starlionblue : I don't know about greedy and selfish. Vulgar perhaps. Companies are insured against lawsuits of this kind and it's not like one would be stealing fo
53 Post contains images Airfoilsguy : Yup sure is, why should a passenger expect the air carrier to get them to their destination alive and without crashing the plane. Some people just ex
54 SEPilot : Valid point. However, even though the Southwest incident involved a fatality (but not among the passengers) the accident could in no way be blamed on
55 2175301 : I see no reasons that passengers would object to flying in a repaired aircraft. They drive in repaired cars all the time. If BA had repaired it they p
56 Tdscanuck : Realistically, why do you care what happens to the plane? It's not your plane. I don't think BA has any obligation to be nice to its own airplanes ju
57 DaBuzzard : So, who's dinner are you taking? Think the insurer just shrugs their shoulders and says "Oh well, guess we lost a few bob.....no biggie." More like "
58 Airfoilsguy : I care what happens to the plane if it involves me making a made rush for my life out an emergency exit, jumping on a slide, and then waiting for tra
59 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : NW passengers didn't object to flying in this now-retired DC-9 that was rebuilt (before NW acquired it in the Republic merger) from the fuselage of o
60 Kubik : Hi there, I was told today by reliable source from BA that the insurance company has paid for the plane and there for it doesn't belong any more to BA
61 BlackProjects : So its been paid for by the Insurance Company so the Front half may go to a good cause say a Cabin and Flight deck Trainer and the rest Back to Boeing
62 Starlionblue : If I'm traveling anyway I dont' have to pay extra for a lottery ticket. How many people really "stop to think" about this sort of thing? How many peo
63 SEPilot : This will never happen because too many lawmakers are lawyers and will never vote to end such a gravy train for themselves. That is why I want a cons
64 Khobar : Hammer. Nail. Head. Nicely put. For one, insurance companies will be glad to pay a settlement rather than a court award. For another, the insurance r
65 Osiris30 : See below: You do realize the re-insurance companies charge the insurance companies, who in turn, charge YOU, so that the clown in the article can ha
66 Starlionblue : I do realize that. However my point is that this hardly stops your typical crashee. Very true. Hey I'm not saying it's "good" behavior. I'm just sayi
67 Post contains images DaBuzzard : Sad but true. "Give them 1/2 a million and they will go away". If they get a sympathetic jury they could get 10 times that or more. Makes economic se
68 Post contains images SEPilot : Excellent summary; my sentiments precisely. Very true, and it is driving doctors out of their practices in certain high-risk specialties in areas of
69 Post contains images Rscaife1682 : All I know is it felt weird taxing by her last week while waiting for Dept on United to IAD. Guess that I have never seen a plane in an accident in re
70 474218 : The worst damage I saw was done to the main landing gear support structure. The left hand gear was pushed through the upper wing plank and the right
71 Litz : This was the showstopper with the A-340 that was driven into the wall @ the airbus factory ... While it was conceivable to put a new front on the air
72 Tdscanuck : It's not clear that there was structural damage to the wing, although I've heard anecdotal information to that effect. The landing gear and it's supp
73 Post contains links Jamie757 : The AAIB have released an interim report, having read through it, it doesnt really shed any more light on the cause (unless I've missed something, whi
74 Sphealey : The key items I saw were that the crew were monitoring outside air (TAT) and fuel temperature throughout the flight due to a concern over ambient tem
76 Heavierthanair : G´day Cavitation in a pump means whatever is being pumped is boiling. For a fluid or a component of a fluid to start boiling, particularly if that fl
77 Cmoltay : Could anyone enlighten us on how fuel is aerated and why excessive aeration would lead to damage on the pressure side of the pumps in a jet engine. R
78 Glideslope : I'm not so sure. I'll bet you would have attempted to retrieve a fuel sample for contamination.
79 Post contains links Manchesteruk : http://www.virginmedia.com/news/uk/uk-story.php?storyid=21215834
80 Post contains images Cubastar : I see that your profile shows that you are an attorney. Now you know how most of us feel when signing a contract written by Counsel. Kinda dizzying,
81 Heavierthanair : G´day Cavitation means a pump alternatively is fed liquid (jet fuel) or gas (fuel vapours or air) causing high loads on the bearings due to uneven lo
82 Khobar : Who should pay for this? And who should pay for the trauma and anxiety if a counselor proves ineffective, especially if it affects a person's ability
83 Tdscanuck : That's not particularly surprising. The center tank should have been virtually dry anyway, and it's unclear if they might have opened up a hole in th
84 Tangowhisky : There is a lot of chatter amongst the pilot community that this plane was on the last remaining drops of usable fuel and there is a cover up. I am beg
85 Sphealey : > There is a lot of chatter amongst the pilot community that this plane > was on the last remaining drops of usable fuel and there is a cover up. > I
86 Post contains links Strudders : There was according to the AAIB 10,500 Kg of fuel on board when the aircraft hit the deck. And I am not sure the AAIB will bye into any cover ups. ht
87 Tangowhisky : All that is being discussed is that there is a widespread cover-up. For example, shouldn't there be intensive concern about 777's that a design/maint
88 Bongodog1964 : Here in the UK the AAIB has been impartially investigating accidents for over 50 years, dating back to when the UK aviation industry was desperately
89 Strudders : I think the reason for the apparent lack of concrete information and/or SB from the manufacture, recommendations and all round headless chicken panic
90 Post contains images Scbriml : Chatter amongst pilots! We all know how often pilot chatter is complete BS. Because of the pilot chatter? It was closer to a heavy landing than a cra
91 LHR27C : This is not only utter rubbish, it is frankly insulting to BA and their safety procedures, not to mention the AAIB, NTSB, Boeing etc. As for "pilot t
92 Oldtimer : Re Tangowhiskey post 84 If there is a lot of crap among pilots forums then its only in US. Pprune(the UK site) not even getting anyway near lack of fu
93 Tdscanuck : Ignition source did not meet fuel. Fires are the exception, not the rule, during crash landing. With regards to fire, it was nothing like AF358...AF3
94 Post contains images BA777ER236 : Well, I can tell you as a BA 777 Captain that there is no such 'aggressive' fuel policy. BA fuel policy conforms with all CAA and JAA requirements to
95 Tangowhisky : OK I knew I would get flamed for this, but wouldn't it be another embarrassment for BA to be low on fuel once again? Wasn't BA embarrassed on the LAX-
96 Tdscanuck : Which is a completely true statement...no sign of a coverup there. It would be far more embarassing for BA to be caught doing such a thing. And given
97 PhilSquares : Don't want to hijack the thread, but please read the AAIB report. There was not a fuel requirement error, but a low fuel EICAS message ans subsequent
98 Theginge : If you know anything about Kerosene it takes a lot to light it. You could chuck a match in to a bowl of it and chances are it wouldn't light. It need
99 Tangowhisky : Not the same thing at all. If Boeing covers a safety issue, it will pay for it one day as there is a design flaw or a ticking time bomb. Ahhh opening
100 AirNZ : You really are determined to keep this going (is this your 'pilot community chat' or your own pet theory?), despite not one shred of evidence to back
101 PhilSquares : First of all, if you took the time to read the AAIB report you would not have to ask this question. I did not there was anything wrong with BA's SOP.
102 Zeke : Around 10t is what I would normally turn up to LHR with, maybe a little more if I was using AMS as an alternate or expecting a lot of holding. As BA7
103 Tangowhisky : I brought the AF accident up because this plane landed and overshot the runway and caught fire even under torrential rain conditions. My apologies fo
104 PhilSquares : 1) You really need to stay on topic. You redefined your remarks about "the pilot community". There hasn't been a word said. There are no conspiracy t
105 Scbriml : The AF A340 ran in to a steep ravine at the end of the runway and broke its back and severely damaged the wings. As I, and others, have said, the fac
106 Oldtimer : Ignoring Tangowhiskey and his stupid conspiracy theories, the AAIB mentioned passenger O2 cylinders were damaged and leaking oxygen. Why does the B777
107 Bongodog1964 : So you base your entire conspiracy theory, on your belief that no definite cause will be found ? This sounds so like the theory of ambulance chasing
108 Max777geek : "The autopilot and the autothrottle systems behaved correctly and the engine control systems were providing the correct commands prior to, during, and
109 Oldtimer : And your point is? Oldtimer
110 Dragon6172 : This whole cover-up idea is just plain silly, from so many angles. The fact the AAIB says they had fuel is good enough for me. But if you believe that
111 TristarSteve : The reason that Ba B777 (and B744) have pax oxygen cylinders is so they are not restricted when routing over high ground. You can have problems cross
112 Max777geek : TangoWhisky, you look unpolite and polemical, but Ill try anyway to give you some answers, if you might take the chance to read. Let's go. This is not
113 Max777geek : Software.
114 PhilSquares : Yes. What is your point?
115 Oldtimer : Thanks for your informative reply TristarSteve. LH had a similar problem on the introduction of the Avro RJ and BAe fitted a 22 minute O2 cylinder so
116 Max777geek : Standing to this sentence wrote in the report : It seems to me it means that the reduction in thrust was commanded by the systems, thus by the softwa
117 PhilSquares : Please go back and re-read the AAIB report. Then get back to us........
118 SEPilot : My reading is exactly the opposite. As I see it everything worked as it was supposed to; but the engines failed to respond. The only reasonable expla
119 Max777geek : I did read it again, do you think I missed something ? "The autopilot and the autothrottle systems behaved correctly and the engine control systems w
120 David L : "The pilot community"? Can you give us some links so we can judge for ourselves? As others have said, the well known pilot communities, the ones used
121 Max777geek : I may agree on the interpretation of the report statement about the correct behaviour of the engines systems, but the reasonable explanation stands,
122 DiscoverCSG : What? UA93 crashed in Shanksville, PA on 9-11-01. There was an AA flight that crashed near Cali some years ago, though.
123 TWAL1011727 : A shallow approach and crash on soft ground and a not so torn up A/C, probably contributed to a fireless scene. Jet fuel needs to be atomized/vaporiz
124 SEPilot : Which leads to the probability that something was blocking the flow that later disappeared. The only thing that will do this that I know of is ice (o
125 Max777geek : That would point the focus - always in a merely opinions talk - on something that did what you say to the fuel, but just at that point of the descent
126 PhilSquares : Yes. Please tell me how you can concluded it is a system problem? The AAIB has said there is nothing wrong with the FADEC, the auto throttles, but th
127 Max777geek : First of all, sir, that doesn't says "but". That says that there was a reduction in the fuel flow AND that the systems behaved correctly, I may read
128 PhilSquares : If you're trying to be condsending, you might want to try harder SIR According to the AAIB Data, downloaded from the Electronic Engine Controllers (EE
129 SEPilot : It is not at all unexplainable. Without access to the actual data and without expertise in the subject, I can believe that either excessive water in
130 Max777geek : I did quote the same sentences few posts ago. If I did quote, I did read, that is sure. "At the point when the right engine began to lose thrust the
131 PhilSquares : SIR, the issue is not the reduction if fuel flow, but the engine response. That response was as I posted, "the metering valves on both engines correc
132 Tdscanuck : No, opening a crossfeed does not cause dual engine failure. Opening the crossfeed puts both engines on a common fuel intake, which makes some types o
133 Max777geek : Im not going to check again, but doesn't the report says that there was not excessive quantity of water in the remaining fuel ? Stating that's true w
134 Dragon6172 : It is also almost impossible that 100s of people at the scene of the crash were mistaken about a large amount of fuel leaking from the aircraft. Lets
135 Max777geek : because that wasn't commanded ?
136 Tdscanuck : That was actually the center tank, which wasn't in play during landing. That said, if water was uplifted to the center tank it's reasonable that wate
137 Dragon6172 : Well then I guess I am confused about what you two are discussing so intensely. I apologize.
138 David L : I think it's quite obvious that it "responded correctly" by commanding more fuel/thrust because the fuel flow was too low. I can't see anywhere in th
139 Max777geek : From what I can read in the report, what caused the fuel flow reduction is not extabilished yet. But it states clearly that the engines responded cor
140 PhilSquares : True. Again, true. But, you are missing what the correct response is. As the AAIB report states, the metering valves opened to allow more fuel into t
141 Nohag : First I want to make clear that I don't support the fuel starvation theory at all but one has to look at any possible reason why there wasn't adequate
142 Dragon6172 : All good to know stuff, that actually interests me as well. However, I would guess that the AAIB, when putting in their report the amount of fuel tha
143 Post contains links Kaitak : BA has just confirmed 'YMMM is a total loss. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...9/ba-to-write-off-crashed-777.html
144 Nohag : No need to apologize. I was indeed looking into this possibility (as being one of the many trails) BUT on the other hand how should fuel exhaustion/s
145 Max777geek : Agree with all. Now, from the report and my modest knowledge of the 777 systems, isn't the fuel flow indicated ? On the md80 is. This indicator - Im
146 PhilSquares : If you're talking about the fuel flow on the upper EICAS then yes, it is measured. However, the EEC memory which has been read, would also have the e
147 Max777geek : I remembered correctly the presence of the indication, Im wondering if the systems stores more data than the only fuel flow indications in the cockpi
148 Khobar : Forgive me if I'm mixing poor recollection with a misinterpretation of what you are saying, but when you refer to "QAR from the engines" do you mean
149 David L : Can the systems command less fuel and more thrust at the same time? We know more thrust was commanded while the fuel flow was insufficient so how cou
150 Post contains images Tangowhisky : First of all folks I am not an attorney. Far from it. I have an engineering background with design, testing, and certification of aircraft systems. I
151 PhilSquares : 1) I don't have BA's SOPs so I can't tell you the exact methodology for fueling. But, it should be something similar to this. The aircraft arrives an
152 Max777geek : Sorry everybody for the big misunderstood. With the whole thing "commanded reduced flow by the systems" I did not mean autothrottle, autopilots or an
153 Post contains images Max777geek : Apologize I tought I read so. I assume you're in possess of pratical common sense you show in the sentence I quote after, that makes me difficult to
154 Nohag : First of all I want to thank TangoWhiskey and Philsquares in providing some more insight into the fueling process. As we don't have the exact technica
155 Post contains images David L : Ah, fair enough. I'd agree that those are two possibilities. It's not just that. It's the evidence that the AAIB has released, too. Of course it's no
156 Tangowhisky : Philsquares, thank you for your insight and descriptions above. I know quite well how every point of design sums the aircraft economics, thank you. Th
157 TristarSteve : You are getting confused with the CVR Cockpit Voice Recorder. This records two hours of conversation. The FDR Flight Data Recorder records around 25
158 Dragon6172 : "The total fuel on board was indicating 10,500 kg, which was distributed almost equally between the left and right main fuel tanks, with a minor imba
159 Gh123 : Agreed and nicely put - good post.
160 Glbltrvlr : That's not just your theory - that's SOP for any engineering investigation. If you want a great example in laymans terms, go rent the movie Fate is t
161 SEPilot : For what it's worth Ernest Gann declared that this was the worst movie ever made, and tried to get his name removed from it. He was a technical consu
162 AirNZ : You quite plainly were comparing it as 'evidence' within your non-sensical theory, despite the fact that the a/c went into a deep ravine and broke up
163 Viscount724 : Had whatever caused the BA crash happened on final approach to the opposite end of the YYZ runway on which the AF A340 landed (the end with the ravin
164 Glbltrvlr : It's typical Hollywood 60s melodrama and shares little more than the title with the book by Gann, but that doesn't mean it's not a bad movie. It does
165 Post contains links Zeke : At leas the fate of the aircraft is now know. "British Airways (BA) is declaring as a write-off the Boeing 777-200ER which was severely damaged in an
166 Post contains images RedFlyer : I didn't think the book was that great, either. I think its fate has been known for sometime. Or are you just reinforcing the fact that the 777 final
167 Zeke : Really ? ... considering Flight International only published the "BA to write off crashed 777" article this week, can you point to a source that says
168 Post contains links RedFlyer : You're the Google expert renowned for referencing all kinds of minutia; why don't you just search for it yourself? But I'll give you a hint: as early
169 SEPilot : Well, it's one of my all time favorite books, and I think the best book I've read about aviation. I'm sorry you guys didn't like it.
170 Post contains images LHR27C : Yes, the BA press release from 1st February . "Following the incident at Heathrow in January involving one of our Boeing 777s, the aircraft has been
171 Zeke : Thanks for that, I have not seen that, first time I saw it was in Flight this week.
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