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Point Of JAL GRU-JFK-NRT  
User currently offlineAFKLMLHLX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10371 times:

I understand that Sao Paulo has the second largest populationnofnJapanese people located outside of Japan, but why not just fly andirectnroute to GRU? I mean, there would definately be enough servicenjustnfrom the fact that Tokyo and Sao Paulo are two huge and majorncities innthe world and with the influx of Japanese people in SaonPaulo, it wouldndefinately be profitable. I mean, how horrible it mustnbe for passengers to have to fly all the way up to JFK and then all thenway over to NRT. It seems redundant and inneficient. Is there a specific reason for this flight? I mean in this day in age where direct service is prevalent, especially to a major city with a huge number of Japanese people, a direct flight from GRU-NRT is needed. Do they feel that by flying to NYC it allows revenue from passengers only flying the GRU-JFK or JFK-NRT legs?

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10354 times:

NRT-JFK-GRU is shorter than going through LAX, ORD or YVR for example.

2 segment path: 10086 nm
NRT LAX 4737 nm
LAX GRU 5350 nm
2 segment path: 10021 nm
NRT YVR 4061 nm
YVR GRU 5959 nm
2 segment path: 9990 nm
NRT ORD 5452 nm
ORD GRU 4538 nm
2 segment path: 9984 nm
NRT JFK 5861 nm
JFK GRU 4123 nm

Could be one reason.



You can't cure stupid
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10346 times:

Good luck finding a plane that can fly Tokyo-Sao Paulo non-stop, profitably. None can.

A stop is absolutely neccessary, and New York isn't out of the way at all. In fact, GRU-NRT non-stop and GRU-NRT via JFK are the exact same distance: 11,489 miles.

Notice how the routing of NRT-GRU nearly perfectly overlaps with NRT-JFK-GRU:

Big version: Width: 481 Height: 241 File size: 6kb


[Edited 2008-02-04 18:54:41]


a.
User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2363 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10348 times:



Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Thread starter):
Is there a specific reason for this flight?

JL gets the best of both worlds. NRT-JFK, and JFK-GRU. They can sell seats on both routes and command a higher premium. Plus JL don't have at the moment an aircraft that can make NRT-GRU non-stop.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineAFKLMLHLX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10335 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):

A stop is absolutely neccessary, and New York isn't out of the way at all. In fact, GRU-NRT non-stop and GRU-NRT via JFK are the exact same distance: 11,489 miles.

Yeah, but that stop over really makes it seem like a long flight. Also, the winds are not in your favor going to JFK-NRT making it longer.


User currently offlineJumboForever From Japan, joined Jul 2005, 200 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10341 times:

Except that NRT-GRU is 9984 nm so a non-stop flight would need a very long range aircraft that doesn't exist.
Add to that that very long flight are not working so well (SQ comes to mind), and also that JFK is almost perfectly on the direct path from NRT to GRU, I think it makes a lot of sense to make a stop at JFK.

Regards,

JumboForever

Big version: Width: 481 Height: 241 File size: 6kb


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10335 times:

Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Reply 4):
Yeah, but that stop over really makes it seem like a long flight

Long or not, a stop is impossible.

Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Reply 4):
Also, the winds are not in your favor going to JFK-NRT making it longer.

They aren't in your favor going GRU-NRT either, which flies over the same exact path as JFK-NRT.

[Edited 2008-02-04 18:56:12]


a.
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10320 times:



Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Reply 4):
Yeah, but that stop over really makes it seem like a long flight. Also, the winds are not in your favor going to JFK-NRT making it longer.

Not as long as some of the other flights I mentioned. NRT-GRU is a haul no matter how you look at it.



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineAFKLMLHLX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10302 times:



Quoting JumboForever (Reply 5):

Okay, how bout somebody clears this up for me. I know that all NY-Asia (eastern) routes go the polar route which seems like it would be longer but I guess its shorter. But why would that be the case for a direct GRU-NRT? Isn't GRU south enough where it could just fly a direct line strait from GRU-NRT rather than travelling all the way up north so much where it passes JFK? How could that be shorter?


User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10271 times:

Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Reply 8):
Okay, how bout somebody clears this up for me. I know that all NY-Asia (eastern) routes go the polar route which seems like it would be longer but I guess its shorter. But why would that be the case for a direct GRU-NRT? Isn't GRU south enough where it could just fly a direct line strait from GRU-NRT rather than travelling all the way up north so much where it passes JFK? How could that be shorter?

Um... being the man of the world you are, surely you should know that it is round.

Seriously, just get out your globe.

The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. JFK is just about smack dab on that straight line. Its a perfectly logical stop, and of course, ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. Its 10,000 nm!

[Edited 2008-02-04 19:07:35]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10270 times:

AFK,

Get two pieces of string and a globe and connect NRT to GRU with them, straight-line and over the north pole...then see which string is shorter. You may be surprised at the answer.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineJAM747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10269 times:



Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Thread starter):
I understand that Sao Paulo has the second largest populationnofnJapanese people located outside of Japan, but why not just fly andirectnroute to GRU? I mean, there would definately be enough servicenjustnfrom the fact that Tokyo and Sao Paulo are two huge and majorncities innthe world and with the influx of Japanese people in SaonPaulo, it wouldndefinately be profitable. I mean, how horrible it mustnbe for passengers to have to fly all the way up to JFK and then all thenway over to NRT. It seems redundant and inneficient. Is there a specific reason for this flight? I mean in this day in age where direct service is prevalent, especially to a major city with a huge number of Japanese people, a direct flight from GRU-NRT is needed. Do they feel that by flying to NYC it allows revenue from passengers only flying the GRU-JFK or JFK-NRT legs?

One reason is that there is probably not a suitable aircraft with the range to that route non-stop profitably. Second JFK is kind of on the way between NRT to GRU. It might seem strange but one of the shortest routes from NRT to GRU is going over Canada over northeast U.S then down to South America. Also alot of people travel between NRT and JFK , GRU to JFK and of course between GRU and NRT. I am not sure if JAL still does that route but when the new visa requirements came out for Brazilians to have visas for the U.S even if they were continuing on the plane to another country eg. Japan, that requirement affected the GRU-JFK-NRT load. This topic has been dicussed on here a few times and I am sure there will be other members who can contribute with more details than I have. Hope this helps.


User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2363 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10270 times:



Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Reply 8):
How could that be shorter?

The world is a sphere. Planes fly the curvature of the earth in order to get to their destination faster.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineA380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10256 times:

Also it gives JL room for another NRT- JFK
and there is a large market for NRT- GRU



www.JandACosmetics.com
User currently offlineEWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10240 times:



Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Reply 8):
Okay, how bout somebody clears this up for me. I know that all NY-Asia (eastern) routes go the polar route which seems like it would be longer but I guess its shorter. But why would that be the case for a direct GRU-NRT? Isn't GRU south enough where it could just fly a direct line strait from GRU-NRT rather than travelling all the way up north so much where it passes JFK? How could that be shorter?

NRT-HNL-LIM-GRU is 10360 nm
NRT-PPT-GRU is 10778 nm.

Both are still farther than NRT-JFK-GRU at 9984 nm.

You also now have to factor in load factors and business on those routes. Which, while for us would be heaven, to investors a failure. JAL takes the route where it knows it makes money. Right now, through JFK.

Go here and tweek the numbers. See for yourself, if you have not been there. It's a great site.
http://gc.kls2.com/



You can't cure stupid
User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1644 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10239 times:



Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Reply 8):
But why would that be the case for a direct GRU-NRT? Isn't GRU south enough where it could just fly a direct line strait from GRU-NRT rather than travelling all the way up north so much where it passes JFK? How could that be shorter?

Because the earth isn't a coin -- there's a significant bulge around the equator.

Go to your local school supplies shop and buy a cheap globe, take a piece of string and measure the distance between NRT and GRU around/over the equator ... then do the same for the polar route.

You'll find both pieces of string are pretty equal in length.

However, the earth isn't spherical like a cheap globe is ... it's flattened on the North-South axis, and bulges at the equator -- factor that into your pieces of string, and the "direct" route is a lot longer.



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10221 times:

That IS a straight line.

They drew it for you twice. You can see the shortest route from GRU nonstop is right along the same path as GRU-JFK-NRT.

Those are not air routes, those are the straight lines between the two sites. The world is a sphere. You have to know the mechanics of circumnavigating a sphere from geometry to fully get it.

At any rate, the shortest line from GRU to NRT is via the Atlantic up and over Canada and Alaska. There is no plane in existence, even the 777-200LR, that can fly the route nonstop.

Gettin it a little better now?

NS


User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3205 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10191 times:



Quoting AFKLMLHLX (Reply 8):
Isn't GRU south enough where it could just fly a direct line strait from GRU-NRT rather than travelling all the way up north so much where it passes JFK? How could that be shorter?

Recent discovery: the Earth is not flat! I know, it's hard to believe.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineAFKLMLHLX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10178 times:

Yes, I forgot that Japan is smack dab on the other side of the world and when looking at a flat projection, it can somtimes be confusing. So rather than flying with the continents from east-west, the route just goes strait over the top of the earth.

User currently offlineTwoLz2rn From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10124 times:

How often does JL fly to GRU?

User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3205 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10020 times:



Quoting TwoLz2rn (Reply 19):
How often does JL fly to GRU?

3 x a week. Wed, Thu & Sun.

Regards
MH



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4755 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9825 times:

Interesting to note that JAL used to fly into Sao Paolo too circa 1987.


Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineMP From Germany, joined Aug 2006, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9670 times:

NRT-JFK-GRU is one of JL's most profitable routes. Regarding my own and colleagues experiences, the load factor is one the highest.

There are also rumours, that the B773 (possibly W72/71 configuration, F9/C63/Y220) could make this flight soon, and then it will be a daily service.

The demand is definetly there to cover a daily service. Pelé and Gisele Bündchen, for example, frequently fly on JL048/JL047.


There's also a large number of Chinese, Korean and Philippine PAX on this route.

[Edited 2008-02-05 02:07:15]

User currently offlineB777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9600 times:



Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 20):
3 x a week. Wed, Thu & Sun.

How do the flight crews work this route? Does JL have a pilot base at JFK that crews rotate through to operate the GRU segment? It would seem with those odd-ball days and crew rest requirements they will be gone from NRT for a 1.5 weeks if they do not have a crew base in JFK. Especially the crew that works the Sunday JFK-GRU flight. No JL flights again until Wed??


User currently offlineFlashFlyGuy From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9516 times:

Astonishingly even on Google Earth, when I drew a line from the terminal at NRT to the terminal at GRU - I was shocked to find this;

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/flasha80/Thread/GE1.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/flasha80/Thread/GE2.jpg

Then if you note the white line that runs from the top to the bottom of this capture, you'll see just how close to New York it goes;

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/flasha80/Thread/GE3.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere

Quoting B777ER (Reply 23):
How do the flight crews work this route? ........ Especially the crew that works the Sunday JFK-GRU flight. No JL flights again until Wed??

You know that's interesting as well. I'd imagine it would be highly sought after. Sao Paulo doesn't look like it's exactly 'coastal', but who wouldn't want a couple of days off in Brazil?  drunk 


25 MP : The cockpit crew flies from NRT, via JFK, to GRU. Normally it's a 8-day pattern. The japanese F/A's are accompanied from NRT to JFK with a mix of SIN
26 Ktachiya : Yes, I think this was debated a few years ago about JL's NRT-JFK-GRU or whether RG's (when the route still existed) NRT-LAX-GRU was shorter and it wa
27 MP : Around 6 years ago, the JL048/JL047 flight was actually flown via NGO. This route was NRT-NGO-LAX-GRU and vice versa. A good friend of mine actually
28 Centrair : The Central Japan Prefectures of Shizouka, Aichi, Gifu and Mie have the largest Brazilian population outside of Brazil. We used to have NRT-NGO-LAX-G
29 Incitatus : Please get a globe. Target has some nice ones, if on sale it will be $10-15. I'm not kidding. I have two.
30 Jpyvr : If you look at the Google maps above, you'll see that the direct line NRT-GRU also passed almost directly overhead Toronto YYZ. Because Canada doesn't
31 MotorHussy : This is where NZ could do well when they get the 787-9 fleet with recommencing NGO flights and starting direct AKL-GRU ones. NZ already fly daily to
32 Max550 : Do planes fly over the South Pole? I see all these routes over the North Pole but it would seem some routes would be shorter by going over the South P
33 MotorHussy : Not truly over the South Pole. Some flights go over the Antarctic region (below 60 degrees south), but not over much of the land mass. The Antarctic
34 WA707atMSP : The reason so many more routes go over the North Pole is because most of the world's population lives in the Northern Hemisphere. The only two routes
35 Max550 : Thank you, that was very informative I was thinking that the South Pole wouldn't be as suited for flying over. My only other question is, disregardin
36 MotorHussy : As I mentioned, there are currently no routes that need to fly over the South Pole, but if non-stop flights start between PER and EZE or AKL and JNB
37 Viscount724 : Exactly. NRT-GRU nonstop is about 800 nm further than LHR-SYD. And if you have to stop, it makes sense to stop at a major city like New York which ha
38 Anonms : How'd you map that out on Google Maps? And given that an NRT-GRU route would go over YYZ, why'd they choose JFK instead of YYZ for the stop?
39 Carpethead : No rumor. JL5/6 will switch to 773ER in August but the NRT-JFK-GRU and the other NRT-JFK flight will remain 744.
40 Viscount724 : Mileage isn't much different and JFK is a much stronger market, both NRT-JFK and JFK-GRU, than YYZ. I also doubt that JL has 5th freedom traffic righ
41 Post contains images Airbazar : When I first read this, I laughed, then I saw your age 16-20, and I'm not sure if I shouldn't be crying instead. Is our educational system that bad?
42 Post contains images Rara : Aw give him a break.. I actually find this thread very enlightening. If I had had to answer the OP's question without reading the thread, I would hav
43 Reality : I think his question is really: Would it be shorter to fly from GRU to NRT by going toward the south pole instead of toward the north pole? The answe
44 Reality : I agree--not good to put people down for asking an honest question. And this is a tricky subject if you haven't thought about it too much before.
45 SJOtoLIR : The disadvantage of JL NRT-JFK-GRU is that their frequencies are 3x weekly for the time being. Moreover, some competitors are linking Brazil - Asia d
46 Post contains images FlashFlyGuy : I was using Google Earth, under the menu headed 'Tools' you'll find the option for 'Ruler', that's what I used. No matter how you join cities up usin
47 MP : You're right. CA's service from PEK to GRU, via MAD, is making good success. I think the it's still a 3-times/week flight, and there's surely a high
48 Post contains images Caspritz78 : We have a winner .
49 MP : They changed it last Summer. The stay in Manhattan was too expensive.
50 WA707atMSP : And, before that, JL flew NRT-GRU with refuelling stops in both ANC and MIA, using DC-8-62s. JL did not have any local traffic rights at ANC or MIA.
51 Max550 : After looking at all this stuff, I think that instead of NYC, the flight should make a stop at MDT as it would go directly over me if it was non-stop.
52 Csavel : Now that all travellers even transiting through the US have to go through customs (and in the case of Brazilian nationals) have to get visas, wouldn't
53 Viscount724 : And from that part of Asia, the routing via Europe is the shortest. From Japan, the shortest route is via the Pacific. From Asian points further sout
54 AFKLMLHLX : Thank you for answering my questions. Just to tell you, I do not think the world is flat. I know that airlines do the polar route because it is the fa
55 Post contains links SJOtoLIR : The Transit Visa is compulsory for those citizens of Brazil who transit Canada. http://www.canada.org.uk/visa-info/visitor/transit_visa.htm Regards.
56 Post contains links Hardiwv : Sao Paulo has THE biggest Japanese community outside Japan. In addition, many medium sized Brazilian cities have substantive Japanese community such
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