Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 24462 posts, RR: 22 Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10776 times:
I'm looking for the largest (domestic) city not served by each of the US legacies. More accurately, I'm looking for two lists: the largest cities not served by mainline and the largest cities not served at all (by mainline or by Express/Connection/etc.). I'm sure there are those out there who know airline route maps far better than I do who can help me.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
CitrusCritter From Pitcairn Islands, joined May 2007, 1151 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10516 times:
I'll toss out the ones I can think of, and we'll see if anyone can come up with a better one. This list is for no-service at all.
AVL - Not served by AA and UA; MSA pop. ~400,000
CSG - Not served by AA, CO, US, UA, NW; MSA pop. ~275,000
LAL - Not served by any airline; MSA pop. ~560,000
MGM - Not served by AA, UA; MSA pop. ~470,000
MLB - Not served by AA, CO, US, UA, NW; MSA pop. ~535,000
OCF - Not served by any airline; MSA pop. ~315,000
Just for the sake of clarity I think you mean OCF-Ocala, FL. I've actually thought a lot about the topic and I can't think of any MSAs larger than LAL and OCF that have zero air service. LAL has the unfortunate predicament of being right smack in the middle of the Orlando-Tampa corridor. Having said that I do think that service might work here. OCF does not have the same issue. The big issue there is the Airport Manager with no interest in pursuing air service. He even posted a paragraph on the airport's website stating that it is unlikely that commercial air service will return to OCF. He makes every excuse in the book including a runway that is "too short". Funny...that didn't seem to stop the AC A320 and G4 MD80 that were sitting on the tarmac together last week. They also see chartered ERJ135/145, MD80 and cargo B727 and Travolta's B707 on a regular basis. Pretty positive for a MSA of 315K and a cachement area of over 530K...don't you think?
This is kind of funny, because NW actually started a virtual RNO mini-hub back when Reno Air dared to start service to MSP years ago. Didn't realize they were gone completely now, but NW once flew to nearly every city from RNO that Reno Air did.
What type of service would you propose for OCF? The runway is not that long (@7000 ft.) but that's not the big problem. The fact is that it sits a 1 hour interstate drive from both MCO and TPA. GNV has air service to the north less than 40 miles away. There are no useful terminal facilities and the MSA has most likely been inflated by the Villages community which lies even closer to MCO and provides daily bus service there for residents.
The days of airlines flying to every town that has a long enough runway are over. Research shows that people will drive hours to save $10 and that has killed air service at a lot of airports. MLB has a large catchment area, nice terminal and they can barely keep DL/ASA. Unfortuantely, most of the population has a slightly longer but easier drive down the 528 to MCO where they can fly to hundreds of destinations nonstop - for cheap. The only hope may be something like Skybus but unlike SGJ or PGD, there is very little attraction to OCF like the beaches of JAX and SW Florida.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 24462 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9734 times:
Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 21): The Trenton MSA has a population of 368,000 and as far as I know isn't served by a legacy. York, PA has a MSA population of 517,000 and don't even have a commercial airport.
When I started doing this, I thought for sure that some of the MSAs that were located within fairly densely-populated areas, like TTN, would come up, but that's surprisingly not the case for many carriers.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Factor in $2 for the convenience of using an airport with choices. IMHO I wouldn't fly a LCC for the same money (or a $10 savings) as a full service legacy carrier on the same route. Nevertheless, people do it all the time.....because it's just a seat to them and they don't know the difference.
: I'll say SCK-Stockton,CA. Not served by ANY mainline, express, conn of any sort at this time. Has to be naround 300,000 people.
: ALB is not served by mainline DL, AA, CO
: DFW-BUF was due to yields, according to some on here. DFW-PVD would certainly have been downgraded to a CR7 when PVD lost AA mainline, but it lacks t
: It's probably closer to 400,000, but within a 70 mile radius is about 6 million people and yet they have no air service. Although SMF is only 50 mile
: Stockton has airports with express and mainline with 50 miles (MOD, SMF, OAK, SJC....). Nothing like the isolation of Fresno and Bakersfield. The Sto
: AVL gets Delta Connection (Chautauqua and ASA) and US Airways Express (Piedmont, Air Wisc, and PSA)
: Youngstown has no service what so ever. Well I shouldn't say that. We do have Allegiant Air. I believe Youngstown is a big enough city to have some ai
: As well as CO Express to IAH/EWR and NW Airlink to MSP/DTW.
: Actually 2 different MSA in the census bureau estimates. Stockton is in the Stockton-Lodi MSA which consists of San Joaquin County. Population is 673
: MLB only needs DL and DL connection. Sure an LCC would be nice, but in the end if one did, it would FL or B6. MCO
: Got me there. But still we're talking about two neighboring counties and county seats less than 30 miles apart.
: And along those lines - OCF needs no service.
: add CLE to that list.... no AA mainline....
: SLC_YVR was mainline DL until last September 1x daily. Could return to that hopefully sometime in the summer. The 738 and MD-90 were almost always 80
: HPN is served by all of the legacies as Express/Connection/Airlink. Whether we are grouped with NYC is up for debate. SWF is only served by DL connect
: In the mid-90's AA flew DFW-BFL with S80's twice a day.
: Some people have mentioned cities like Oakland (No NW or US), or Stockton. OAK shouldn't really be mentioned in the discussion at all, since it is par
: I would say that ORF and PHF have plenty of service, but UAL I believe is the only legacy that has no mainline service here. With the Norfolk, Virgini
: ILG (Wilmington DE) has no mainline or express service. That will change in May when SkyBus starts service. DL connection tried service last year, ver
: There is a LCC in MLB. USA3000 now serves BWI from MLB. I would really like to see someone else come to MLB that had a better chance to connect to ot
: I dont think they ever actually started it did they? It was like in 1993 and I thought Clinton Admin threatened NW if they tried to put QQ out of bus
: For some reason, neither F9 nor UA see it fit to service ELP with mainline equipment, and they throw plenty of Barbie jets at the route (at least 6 da
: How about New Haven, CT. I think it's only express sevice, and limited at that.
: Of course, parking is generally more expensive at these larger airports as well... we can add a lot of factors if we like. 900,000 people (smaller th
: I think the mainline should be AUS, at about 1.5 million in the MSA. Airlink to MSP, DTW, MEM, and an IND link coming soon, but no mainline.
: MKE hasn't had mainline UAL for a long time. MKE doesn't get CO mainline. Though I think they could by reducing their express freqs and replacing a fe
: Actually, 736,000 on the U.S. side,but El Paso is part of the Greater El Paso - Ciudad Juarez Metropolitan Area population 2,380,785. Northwest doesn
: I thought they started at least some of it before they pulled back, but maybe not. I do remember at least seeing all the NW RNO-SEA, RNO-PDX, RNO-LAX
: Worcester, MA (ORH) hasn't had legacy carrier service for several years. G4 came in for a little while but later pulled out. Presently, ORH has no sch
: You maybe right, if NW did fly it, they didnt for long
: I've been informed that STL has no CO mainline... I live here and missed that. Yup... At 1.5 million, that's good for a place on the list. FWIW, MKE a
: They tried, but I think word quickly spread that a 4 hour CRJ-200 ride to MSP isn't comfortable. Besides, you could do AA ELP-ORD-MSP on mainline equ
: That was NW's longest CR2 route while it was running, wasn't it?
: I think it was close to, if not the, longest CR2 route anywhere
: LGB doesn't, and it is a very large city, but it is served by several other airports.
: "Full service legacy carrier"? Is there such a thing US domestic? I remember the "what's the longest's RJ route" thread and I think this was near or
: NW could easily fill up a 319 from RNO/BUR/OAK/LGB to MSP/DTW and have the routes all to themselves. I don't know if these airports are high on their
: I think the E75s could open up at least a handful of new routes west of the Rockies to NW... perhaps all those on your list save LGB. We're also alre
: I'm curious where you found that population number...I did some research and the highest number I could come up with was 42,192 in 1990. Since then t
: However, with Vancouver, Washington being only across your choice of two bridges and the Columbia river from Portland, Oregon, I doubt that VUO will
: It was supposed to happen but it did not for some reason. I am curious as why more airlines haven't decided to try MLB. Hunter
: Especially with our 730pm MCI flight being all the people from the YVR flight one day. Well I think it was 43 pax and 86 bags off vancouver. Gotta lo
: Why would you need that when you have the CO bus shuttle to EWR?
: Another city to add to your list is Hilo, (ITO) Hawaii, our second largest city here in the state of Hawaii. It is not served by any legacy carrier an
: I think that Hilo is a beautiful city and I absolutely love the Big Island. But consider that the population of 171,191 is for the entire island. Add
: Airlines have tried MLB. It has been served by the likes of AA, CO, US and I believe even Spirit was in there for awhile. It's always dried up becaus
: Its embarrassing, but AA no longer serves CLE, which is one of the largest markets in the country. Even to DFW and MIA.
: I looked at my source and see that the figure I gave was for the CSA which also includes Gettysburg/Adams County. You are correct that the MSA popula
: That's the thing that I constantly hear people say about a lot of markets that are now served by "express/connection" carriers. These airlines no lon
: Last I checked, US flies the 99-seat EMB-190, which I would consider to be in the 100-seat range.
: Using census bureau numbers, the PVD metro area has 1.6 million people. Since DL no longer sends mainline to PVD, I would say PVD wins for lack of DL
: 800,000 people, almost right on the nose, and with no AA at all, it narrowly displaces BFL. Only 270,000 people, though. I think we have a winner. Ti
: IIRC, at one time, US did fly PHL-ACY using Allegheny Dash-8s.
: According to 2006 SMSA (metro area) PVD is the nation's 35th largest @ 2.1M also N.E.'s second largest core city. In many ways legacys protect their
: NW only recently stopped serving RNO, like maybe in the last year or so. I believe their stated reason was low load factors, but I have no links to c
: At SDF we have no CO mainline, UA mainline or US Mainline. The metro area of Louisville and southern Indiana is over 1,000,000. We do get mainline jet
: That's good for a spot on the list... AA Mainline: PIT (2.3 million) Eagle/Connection: ABE (800,000) CO Mainline: STL (2.8 million) Connection: FAT (
: Hampton Roads has an MSA of 1.7 million, and neither ORF or PHF has mainline UA service.
: Surprised CVG has not been mentioned. MSA of 2.1 million, mainline from DL and UA only. That would make it the largest non-mainline city for NW and US