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Lufthansa Cargo B727F Crash In Nepal In 1999  
User currently offlineSandyCX From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 23 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9166 times:

Hi all
Had been talking to my aunt about plance crashes when she told me about the Lufthansa Crash in '99. I knew of it from airdisaster.com but she went on to tell me about investigations that followed the crash and apparently one of the reasons for the crash could have been that the plane was carrying too much cargo. I thought it didn't make sense because no pilot would authorise his flight to carry dangerous amount of weight on board. However I do also find it hard not to believe her because she had been a newsreader at the national radio service of Nepal for several years and she tells me a lot of people- not from the aviation sector went on to lose their jobs.
Does anybody know anything I don't? Any info would be appreciated.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...I&airline=Lufthansa+Cargo+Airlines

Sandy

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9077 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9160 times:
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Quoting SandyCX (Thread starter):
I thought it didn't make sense because no pilot would authorise his flight to carry dangerous amount of weight on board.

I dont know exact details of this accident.
BUt I am a pilot and well, you cannot really double check what is loaded behind and underneath you!
The loadmaster does all the loading with his staff. Once finished he let weight and balance calculate the weight and the trim. With those figures, we pilots receive a LOAD & TRIM SHEET! And when it says: you have 20 tons of cargo on board, then we have to believe it! I cannot go back and double check it, how should I do that? I cannot weigh this all again. And if there isnt 20 tons cargo, more like 40 tons, then I dont know about it! Well, until I see that we dont lift off or something else....
So, thats why we have to trust the loadmaster that he does a proper job!

Oh, and one oher thing: Passengers are calculated with 75kgs, 5kgs handluggage and 20kgs their bag, total 100kg! so, 200 passengers is 20 tons load! But check around you: how many people are actually 75kg?! I am not, I am above that! And as well the hundluggage: 2 or 3 pieces... Alone the laptop itself is 4kgs sometimes! So, we are heavier EVERYTIME than we think we are...
I usually add a bit of weight for the take off performance calculation! If the actual TOW is 248 tons, I calculate with 250 tons to be on the safe side....

WILCO737 (MD11F)


[Edited 2008-02-06 04:03:47]


It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10763 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9144 times:

That was no LH crash, but Hinduja Cargo, an Indian company partially owned by LH, flying under a LH flight-no.

In general I would trust this site more than airdisaster:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19990707-0

Here nothing is said about overloading btw, the airplane was carrying 21 tons of carpet. Dont know, how much a 727-200f can carry.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7077 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9138 times:

It was not a real LH Cargo aircraft but owned by a subsidiary called Hinduja Cargo Services:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerard Helmer



Does anybody know if the airline was seized because of the crash ?



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineFraport From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8960 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 1):
Oh, and one oher thing: Passengers are calculated with 75kgs, 5kgs handluggage and 20kgs their bag, total 100kg!

That is a bit too generalized. Don't forget that those passenger standard weights are dependent on gender and age (adults/children/infants). The weights I know another german airline uses are 88kgs for men, 70kgs for women and 35kgs for children. Which seems not too far from reality (at least outside the U.S.  duck  )


User currently offlineKL1291 From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8798 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 1):
dont know exact details of this accident.
BUt I am a pilot and well, you cannot really double check what is loaded behind and underneath you!
The loadmaster does all the loading with his staff. Once finished he let weight and balance calculate the weight and the trim. With those figures, we pilots receive a LOAD & TRIM SHEET! And when it says: you have 20 tons of cargo on board, then we have to believe it! I cannot go back and double check it, how should I do that? I cannot weigh this all again. And if there isnt 20 tons cargo, more like 40 tons, then I dont know about it! Well, until I see that we dont lift off or something else....
So, thats why we have to trust the loadmaster that he does a proper job!

Hai!

Off course its true, a CPT or F/O cannot double the exact weights behind them, on Main-deck or Lower holds; they have to trust on the LOAD & TRIM SHEET. But this LOAD sheet is for CPT information. Therefore he is informed and must be 110% sure of the fact he is exactly aware of type and loading position of any special loads and/or commodity of the cargo (Dangerous Goods, PER, AVI, BIG!!!!!!, OHG!!!!, etc...) that has been loaded. In other words: the CPT is responsible for all LOAD figures together with the Loadmaster (both signatures will be on the LOAD & TRIM SHEET!). Not only the Loadmaster and his staff.

KL1291


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9077 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8757 times:
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Quoting KL1291 (Reply 5):
Therefore he is informed and must be 110% sure of the fact he is exactly aware of type and loading position of any special loads and/or commodity of the cargo (Dangerous Goods, PER, AVI, BIG!!!!!!, OHG!!!!, etc...) that has been loaded. I

And what happens when the Loadmaster told us that the 10 tons container was loaded on position R but actually it is at position A left?! Then its a difference of about 20 tons in trim. And tell me: HOW can the captain or me check that?! Have you ever been in an MD11F and tried to reach the postion at the far end when the aircraft is loaded? Impossible! Even if there is everything correctly stated on the load & trimi sheet and on the NOTOC,. that doesnt mean everything is 100% correctly loaded! We are all human beings and we do make mistakes (so do I as well). But I am the idiot sitting in the cockpit trying to rotate and nothing happens... or the aircraft is unflyable and we overrun the runway... Then the loadmaster is in trouble, but I might be dead...
So, if you know HOW I can 110% correctly check that the loadmaster and his staff loaded everything correctly: you are welcome to email this to me!

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineSandyCX From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8612 times:

Thx guys, learnt a few new things...

Quoting NA (Reply 2):
Here nothing is said about overloading btw, the airplane was carrying 21 tons of carpet. Dont know, how much a 727-200f can carry.

I couldn't find anything about weight issues either. Airliners.net aircraft data says B727-200Adv operating empty is approx 45 tonnes and MTOW is 95 tonnes. I am coming to rule out weight as the cause for the incident. Even if the Load and Trim Sheet was off the mark, it couldn't have affected the climb so much, could it?
So what did bring the plane down? Says it was at 7550 feet when it should've been at 9500. Does anybody know why? Pilot error? Lack of thrust?


User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6483 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8509 times:

The plane could have been "overloaded" which of course reduces max climb rate. But that cannot be the root couse.

The crew knew where they were flying, or they should know.

The crew knew where the mountains were, or they should know.

The crew knew their actual altitude and climb rate, or they should know.

The crew knew their alpha (wing angle of attack) and trim during climb, or they should know. Unusual figures would tell about any overload or faulty balance.

And the crew was able to, and prepared for, an engine shut down at any time during the climb - from V1 speed and all way - or they should be. Which would have reduced their max climb rate to "very zero'ish". But they didn't report an engine problem.

Somewhere along that line the crew failed to do their job.

It can of course always be argued that if they had been less heavy, then they might have made it.

We can make any speculations, a combination of overload, bad balance, underperforming engines etc. But the root cause will always be that the crew failed to cope correctly with their actual situation. Nothing less than two engines shut down should be able to paint them up in a corner with no way out.

Airdisaster.com says: "PROBABLE CAUSE: Failure to the adhere to Standard Instrument Departure Procedure (SID) by the crew and failure of the controllers to warn the flight. Contributing factors were incomplete departure briefing, the unexpected airspeed decay during the initial right climbing turn, inadequate intra cockpit crew coordination and communication, and the slow response to the premonition given by air traffic controller." That probably doesn't come out of the blue air.

If that is correct, then the root cause is "crew error". And litle or no assistance from ground.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8391 times:

Sandycx

Do your figures include fuel.

According to Modern Civil Aircraft by Peter Gilchrist, the basic B727-200 had a max payload of 39,340 lb, but the B727-200F, (which was based on the B727-200Adv) had a max payload of 60,000 lb.

Given that a cargo of 21 tons is 47,040 lb, then a basic B727-200 would be well under the limit.

So the first question is was this aircraft a B727-200Adv. My understanding is that it was.

The basic JT8D-9 had 14,000 lb , compared to 15,500 lb on the JT9D-15 of this aircraft or 16,000 lb on the B727-200F.

This should give a payload of about 55,000 lb.

On that basis, if the load sheet was correct, then overloading should not be an issue, although C of G or the load moving could be.

Secondly, I understand that altitude would affect performance, and the aircraft did take off at over 6,000 feet.

Is someone able to do the maths for max load in those conditions.


User currently offlineKL1291 From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8194 times:

[quote=WILCO737,reply=6]And what happens when the Loadmaster told us that the 10 tons container was loaded on position R but actually it is at position A left?! Then its a difference of about 20 tons in trim.
FYI, I am a Loadmaster on B742/4F in AMS.

In your example about the 10 tons container, it likely to me and our team (this is a standard loading procedure) the Captain and the loadmaster (together with his team) will double-check all special loads on board stated on the NOTOC and LOAD sheet. Your example stated will never be the case over here. Even (last minute) position changes and/or loading mistakes will be noted immediately. But he, I am aware of the fact this is not the wild-west and in our work safety always comes FIRST!

But besides that, I just wanted to point out the CPT and Loadmaster responsibilities and processing and transferring loading information upon loading at the tarmac. 1. Loadmaster is 100% responsible for LOAD sheet and NOTOC. 2. The loadmaster informs the CPT about LOAD sheet and NOTOC. 3. CPT will double-check special loads, for his own and crew safety. As a consequence the CPT is fully (upon nearly 110%) aware of his LOAD.

We are all human beings and we make mistakes (almost every day). We can write a book, create a movie, especially about cargo-planes. But on daily bases we are in the position to avoid (almost any) mistake(s) upon loading. Viva your stab trim!!

KL1291


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9077 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8184 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting KL1291 (Reply 10):
In your example about the 10 tons container, it likely to me and our team (this is a standard loading procedure) the Captain and the loadmaster (together with his team) will double-check all special loads on board stated on the NOTOC and LOAD sheet. Your example stated will never be the case over here. Even (last minute) position changes and/or loading mistakes will be noted immediately. But he, I am aware of the fact this is not the wild-west and in our work safety always comes FIRST!

Safety comes at us first as well! But there has been LOADS of such loading mistakes! Usually just minor changes and NOBODY knew about it! The loadsheet said: its loaded there, but it wasnt! Then the captain (AND first officer) double check the load sheet! And we are happy with the load sheet because everything SEEMS to be loaded correctly! But apprantly for some reason whatsoever it isnt... And then even reading and double checking the load sheet with the loadmaster 1000 times wouldnt make this mistake visible! Thats the problem: at some point there are mistakes which cannot be found and then we are in trouble!
Thats usually happens when an aircraft accident happens! If you read the assident reports afterwards, then you can see that usually a lot of things went wrong before it actually came to that crash! only one minor mistake wont lead to an accident.
Taken this expample: a change of loading position. The loadmaster will be informed about it, writes it down on his sheet, someone is disturbing him, destracting him and he forgets to tell his loading staff that the container should go somewhere else! BUT the loadmaster will forward the NEW data to weight and Balance. They do a new loadsheet with the container on the NEW position, but the loading staff put it to the original position... Does the laodmaster walk through the cargo hold of an MD11F or any other freighter or aircraft AFTER loading is finished to double check everything is correct? I dont think so! And usually its not possible!
Then the loadmaster enters the cockpit and tells the cockpit crew where eveerything is loaded, what kind of special load is loaded. We in the cockpit see all those figures on the loadsheet and both sign for it: loadmaster and captain. Well, doors closed and up we go.... BUT the container is on the wrong position......
There is no 100% guarantee that everything is perfectly loaded!
And a sentence: "Something like that will never happen!" is a very risky and dangerous statement!! Titanic is unsinkable, 3 hydraulic systems cannot fail (DC10 in Sioux City) etc etc... there are tons of such expamples... And it DOES happen....

Quoting KL1291 (Reply 10):
But on daily bases we are in the position to avoid (almost any) mistake(s) upon loading. Viva your stab trim!!

Yes, and its my goal to get retired in 30 years without any bigger trouble! I made it through 4 years now! And I intend to keep it that way!!!
And I hope that the loadmaster does proper job! I was loadmaster on my own as well before I became a pilot, so I know what the guys do down there and I trust them! but WE (captain and first officer) CANNOT check everything whats going on down there....
Or can I take a sample of the fuel if its contaminated or if its really Jet A1 and no AVGAS? no, I cannot! I have to trust those guys that its really Jet A1 what the put into my tanks!
And the mechanics: they tell me, such and such is fine, no problem, we checked for it and you guys can fly with it! Ok, what can I do? Not a lot! I can take a visual inspection of some things, but I cannot be 100% sure...

Do you see what I want to say? Of course, there is HELL OF A LOT what is done to make it all as safe as possible... but mistakes still happen everyday! We have to reduce them to a minium, but they do happen!

And in thrust we trust Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineApuneger From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 3032 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8111 times:

Wilco 737,

Thanks for the explanations. I never looked at it that way...In the end you really haeve to rely a lot on people. By the way, when is your next flight?  Wink Happy landings!

Best regards,
Ivan



Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9077 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8109 times:
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Quoting Apuneger (Reply 12):

Anytime  Wink

My next flight? errmm, I have vacation until 19th and then I am on reserve! So: I dont know  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
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