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DL-NW Merger: Fleet Outcome  
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17475 times:

I figured with the other thread about the merger announcement we should have a thread about the merging of their fleets. so this is what i think...

I don't think DL would completely get rid of the airbus planes right away, but they certainly would not replace any of them with airbus aircraft. They would probably use the A330s for expansion and eventually replace the oldest 767-300ER. The A330 fleet is definately large enough to stand alone in DL until they get old. The A320s could be useful when pulled off certain routes (which would probablly happen when route structures were changed) to replace MD-88s and DC-9s that would be retired. What is interesting is DL will now have the 757-300, which they never ordered so it will be interesting to see what they decide to do with this plane. I think DL will also keep the 744s since they work great on asia routes. DL has never really had a route structure that needed a larger plane than the 772ER, so i think it could come down to two things, order the 77W to go with its current 777 fleet, order larger 787 to compliment its new 787 fleet that will come with NW (although that will take some time), or (in my opinion what they should do) Use the 744s and turn them into freighters to replace the older 742s when needed, and replace the 744s with 748s to give commonality with the 787 with the technology they share and have enough capacity for now NW and DL customers to fill asia flights.

103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17444 times:

I think we should keep talking in subjunctive terms as long as there's not an official merger announcement. Right now everything is just rumors, don't forget about that. Maybe rumors with a certain substance, but still not more than - rumors.


300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlinePavlovsDog From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17426 times:

The only certainly is that the DC-9's would go right away as services rationalize. I don't see any reason to phase out the Airbuses anytime soon. They're great aircraft and NW/DL would have plenty to have economies of scale. The purpose of a merger is to cut, not add costs.

Replacing the MD-80's is a far greater priority than offing the busses and it is not a pressing one either. Aside from supplementing the 787 order and adding some 773's I wouldn't expect too much the first three years of a merger.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17384 times:

It will take 10 years to simplify the fleets...I would expect a AF/KL type arrangement for the first few years.

User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17365 times:

The first move would be to dump the DC-9s and that is how you fund the closing of CVG and MEM

User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17325 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 6):
I think what is implied is that the Northwest name will go away
After reading this and other threads on this forum, I'm surprised all the "experts" have overlooked the bilateral issue. One of the things NW has had in their favor is the fact the bilateral is carrier specific. There is no guarantee that all their beyond rights will survive any merger/acquisition. Japan is under no obligation to allow the surviving carrier to continue with the existing bilateral. Granted the PA/UAL route transfer in 85 did go through, but times were very different then and the incumbent Japanese carriers have a lot to lose with the consolidation of US carriers.

Just a thought.

[Edited 2008-02-07 07:12:57]

User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17298 times:



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 3):
This "Captain" is 16-20 years old and makes it sound like Delta is just picking up the scraps of another airline. Whatever.

Hey maybe its his future goal or something, no need to get on the guy like that.
I think he is asking a viable question, because WSJ is a reliable source and they say merger will go through next week, although I'm with you on the notion that OP made it sound like DL is picking up the scraps.

Quoting DL767captain (Thread starter):
I don't think DL would completely get rid of the airbus planes right away, but they certainly would not replace any of them with airbus aircraft. They would probably use the A330s for expansion and eventually replace the oldest 767-300ER. The A330 fleet is definitely large enough to stand alone in DL until they get old. The A320s could be useful when pulled off certain routes (which would probably happen when route structures were changed) to replace MD-88s and DC-9s that would be retired.

You make it sound like these planes are just sitting around, you have to realize NW is flying these aircraft to make money on hundreds of routes, just because they will merge with DL doesn't mean those routes will go away, and DL will have to decide what to do with the NW fleet.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 4):
It will take 10 years to simplify the fleets...I would expect a AF/KL type arrangement for the first few years.

 checkmark 
Although we might not agree on the length it will take them(I think it will be around 5 years but what do I know) a significant amount of time, after they decide on their strategy(they decided on it already I guess) as far as the Hubs and expansion plans, they will deal with the fleet.



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17247 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
After reading this and other threads on this forum, I'm surprised all the "experts" have overlooked the bilaterial issue

Are you talking about beyond NRT rights? Must the name be "Northwest"? UA didnt have this problem with PA did they?


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3397 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17231 times:



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 3):
Why not start a thread wondering what NWA will do with the Delta planes.



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 6):

I think what is implied is that the Northwest name will go away

That may be true as there was a statement that the Delta would only merge if they could keep their name but I thought that NW was in better financial shape than Delta so could be more in a position to dictate what to do.

A good rule of thumb would be that unless a type is really expensive to run or in the fleet in tiny numbers, then it will stay in the combined fleet until it is due for a replacement - they will probably pick A32X, 737NG or 737RS as the corporate choice for new orders and place a massive order that replaces the oldest planes first.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6939 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17178 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Thread starter):
they certainly would not replace any of them with airbus aircraft

"Certainly"? Give me a break! Any management who know what they are doing will dispassionately assess every situation and make the most prudent decision on behalf of the company's shareholders.

If the 'new' A320 (for the sake of argument) is 'better' than the 'new' 737, you're saying that Delta management will be too pig-headed to buy it?

Just as the Lufthansa management will refuse to buy the 'new' 737 if it's 'better' than the 'new' A320?

Or can you conceive of no situation where an 'Airbus' is better than a 'Boeing'? It's not impossible, you know...  Wink


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17181 times:

A joined DL/NW will not be anything like the former DL or NW. Granted DL was not very keen on Airbus the last few years but that may change now. I don´t think the Airbusses will leave the fleet soon. The A320 fleet of NW alone is larger than DL 737 fleet.
I would guess that the decission which aircraft will be retired will not be based on the idea Boeing good, Airbus bad but after fuel consumption, age, number of aircraft in the fleet etc....
So even as an armchair CEO it is safe to say that the Dc 9s will go first also the MD 88/MD90 are a safe bet.
DL/NW will have a pretty large 757 fleet so they will drop some of them or use them for new transatlantic routes. The 757-300 will likely stay as it not that different from the -200 and it will be hard to find a buyer.. Also I expect some older 767-300s to go as the new airline would have one of the largest longhaul fleets. The 747s will likely stay and maybe will be replaced by A380s or 747-8Is for the Asian routes, 777s will also stay as will the A330s. The 737NG and A320 will also stay.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17175 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 9):
Are you talking about beyond NRT rights? Must the name be "Northwest"? UA didnt have this problem with PA did they?

Please re-read my post. The UAL/PA deal in 85 is not the same as the transaction is today. The dynamics in the Japan-US market have changed considerably.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17166 times:

DL post-merger fleet:

767-300ER/-400, A330-200, 787-8, A330-300, 777-200LR, 737-700/-800/-900ER, 757-200

Delta will immediately dump post-NW A32X, DC-9s and replace their own Mad Dogs with more 737NGs. Second in line to go would be 757-300s. Third one to go will be 777-200ERs, which will be replaced by more capable -200LRs (DL will order more of them to replace their -200ERs on 1-1 basis). And you know that they will be more than happy to receive the 787s that were originally destined for NW. Widebody A330s will be kept, because they can earn more money than 767-400s on the sub-5000nm sectors. It is quite possible that the 767-400s will be sold to Continental, as the new 787-8s arrive. 767-300ERs will soldier on as they are ideal gap-fillers between transatlantic 757-200s and A332s/788s. On the narrowbody front, it is possible that 737-900ERs will join the transcontinental fleet as a replacement for 757-200s, which are moved to the shorter transatlantic routes.

Which takes us to the second (widebody Airbus) replacement stage:

Eventually Delta would further streamline its widebody fleet: more 787-8s will be purchased as a replacement for A330-200s. A330-300/777-200ER replacement will be 787-9. If Boeing ever decides to go for the -10, DL would probably end up getting about a dozen or so. The last type to go will be 767-300ER, replaced by (you've guessed it!) more 787-8s.

I expect the post-merger DL to have over 100 787-8s, about 50 787-9s and around 20 777-200LRs for the routes that 787-9 will not be able to make it. Maybe around 12 - 18 787-10s (if launched) for the transatlantic routes where there is a need for 340 seater.

BTW I expect DL to convert the interiors of 787s from 2-4-2Y ordered by NW to 3-3-3.

DL fleet types around 2015 - 2017 (if merged with NW):

737-700
737-800
737-900ER
787-8
787-9
787-10
777-200LR



Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17086 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 13):
Please re-read my post. The UAL/PA deal in 85 is not the same as the transaction is today. The dynamics in the Japan-US market have changed considerably.

I am not convinced thsi would be a problem. I am sure it has been looked at by the general counsels. In what way have the dynamics changed considerably? They really havent, there are a few more US carriers flying to Japan today versus 1985 but as far as the "dynamics" you have to be more specific.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 16999 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 15):
I am not convinced thsi would be a problem. I am sure it has been looked at by the general counsels. In what way have the dynamics changed considerably? They really havent, there are a few more US carriers flying to Japan today versus 1985 but as far as the "dynamics" you have to be more specific.

1985 JAL only carrier to the US.

Today, JAL, ANA both want more access to US markets. That's what's changed. If you read the bilateral, it's company specific and why would Japan agree? What's in it for them?


User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 16947 times:



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 14):
Delta will immediately dump post-NW A32X, DC-9s and replace their own Mad Dogs with more 737NGs. Second in line to go would be 757-300s. Third one to go will be 777-200ERs, which will be replaced by more capable -200LRs (DL will order more of them to replace their -200ERs on 1-1 basis).

I probably shouldn't even reply to this....

any management doing such stupid moves like this (dumping perfectly working and relatively new airplanes just to be replaced by newly bought airplanes which are no more capable than the old ones) would deservedly be fired immediately... besides, where should DL/NW get the money for a order of 100ish 737NGs plus a large number of 77Ls?



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 16852 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 7):
After reading this and other threads on this forum, I'm surprised all the "experts" have overlooked the bilateral issue. One of the things NW has had in their favor is the fact the bilateral is carrier specific. There is no guarantee that all their beyond rights will survive any merger/acquisition. Japan is under no obligation to allow the surviving carrier to continue with the existing bilateral. Granted the PA/UAL route transfer in 85 did go through, but times were very different then and the incumbent Japanese carriers have a lot to lose with the consolidation of US carriers.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 13):
Please re-read my post. The UAL/PA deal in 85 is not the same as the transaction is today. The dynamics in the Japan-US market have changed considerably.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 16):
1985 JAL only carrier to the US.

Today, JAL, ANA both want more access to US markets. That's what's changed. If you read the bilateral, it's company specific and why would Japan agree? What's in it for them?

You are wrong.

I have read the bi-lateral.

The bi-lateral states that the rights go to 2 USA nominated carriers. Later the nominated carriers are named as NW and UA. The USA has the right to change the designated carrier named. The disagreement between the USA and Japan with the PA transaction was about the selling off of a division and the corresponding NRT slots, as well as distribution of future NRT slot availability. A company is not supposed to be able to sell NRT slots. They are supposed to be use it or lose it, as they go back into the reallocation pool. The leasing of slots is one way around this rule that has been used in the past (ie DL and FedX).

With a full DL/NW merger, there is no problem in DL becoming the new USA designated carrier under the USA-Japan bi-lateral.


User currently offlineFUN2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1061 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16805 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
The 757-300 will likely stay as it not that different from the -200 and it will be hard to find a buyer



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 14):
Second in line to go would be 757-300s.

You're so wrong on this one. It's the lowest seat cost per mile of any single aisle airplane. NW, CO or any charter group would like up for this. Allows you to compete with the LCC's. Would DL rather be running these to MCO vs. w/b aircraft?


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16757 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 18):
Later the nominated carriers are named as NW and UA. The USA has the right to change the designated carrier named.

Sir, you need to re-read the bilateral. You are wrong. Where is there a guarantee that the surviving carrier will get the rights? Look at the bilateral and tell me how it is interpreted today vs. 50 years ago. Japan has a much different perspective and political base today than it did years ago. You, yourself even told me it was carrier specific. Don't you think UA/US would have something to say about liberalisation of the bilateral?

I was involved with NWA in the 80s and 90s and that was always the one issue that could never be counted on. The bilateral discussions are something that no one will know until the question is asked.


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16757 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
The first move would be to dump the DC-9s and that is how you fund the closing of CVG and MEM

What are these planes worth? They can't be worth very much at all.

And the Airbus planes are going nowhere. In fact I'd be willing to bet that some additional A330s get added via lease, or other quick turn option.


User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16719 times:



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 14):

You seem so confident on your predictions (which you forgot to label as that) as if like you are calling the shots on the merger.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 14):
Delta will immediately dump post-NW A32X, DC-9s and replace their own Mad Dogs with more 737NGs. Second in line to go would be 757-300s.

Read my post above why would you dump perfectly fine working aircraft? Plus how will that immense seat capacity reduction be replaced??

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 14):
Third one to go will be 777-200ERs, which will be replaced by more capable -200LRs (DL will order more of them to replace their -200ERs on 1-1 basis).

Wrong! How are you coming up with these things there are routes in DL's system that 772ER works better than the 772LR.

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 17):
I probably shouldn't even reply to this....

I won't blame you Smile

Quoting Haggis79 (Reply 17):
any management doing such stupid moves like this (dumping perfectly working and relatively new airplanes just to be replaced by newly bought airplanes which are no more capable than the old ones) would deservedly be fired immediately... besides, where should DL/NW get the money for a order of 100ish 737NGs plus a large number of 77Ls?

 checkmark 



Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16638 times:



Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 20):
You seem so confident on your predictions (which you forgot to label as that) as if like you are calling the shots on the merger.

Sorry, I just like to have some fun predicting fleet types from time to time  Smile

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 20):
Read my post above why would you dump perfectly fine working aircraft? Plus how will that immense seat capacity reduction be replaced??

...because Delta already had A320s offered to them at favourable conditions and decided to show Airbus rep the door. They would replace them with combination of 737-800 and -900ERs. BTW 737-800 is average 2-class 160 seater, while A320 is 150 seater. 10 extra passengers for lower trip cost = more revenue.

Quoting Gokmengs (Reply 20):
Wrong! How are you coming up with these things there are routes in DL's system that 772ER works better than the 772LR.

Because these are the routes where A330-300 work much better than 772ER. Keep in mind NW bought the "Enhanced" series A330s, and most of DLs 77Es fly on the routes where market demands something larger than their 767-400s. It has been proven that A330 carries less "dead weight" on transatlantic sector while generating greater revenue from cargo than 77E. At the same time, 77L on the Atlanta - Narita run will not be payload restricted and would carry more revenue generating cargo than 77E.



Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlineHaggis79 From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 1096 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16607 times:



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 21):
...because Delta already had A320s offered to them at favourable conditions and decided to show Airbus rep the door. They would replace them with combination of 737-800 and -900ERs. BTW 737-800 is average 2-class 160 seater, while A320 is 150 seater. 10 extra passengers for lower trip cost = more revenue.

you still haven't told me where the money for buying all those 737s should come from... besides, 160 instead of 150 pax means also one F/A more per plane... and off goes your lower trip cost...



300 310 319/20/21 332/3 343 AT4/7 143 B19 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 742/4 752/3 763/4 77E/W CR2/7/9 D95 E45/70 F50 F70 100 M11 M90
User currently offlineFD728 From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16566 times:

On the CH Aviation fleet page it says the 744s are to be converted!

How true is that?


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7661 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16548 times:

The one thing people quickly forget is that they need to rationalize routes in conjunction with the fleet. Saying the -9's are gone the day after the merger isn't going to happen. What will they fly in their place? There will be a transition period. Even if MEM/CVG are downsized, that just frees up primarily a bunch of RJ's. The -9 flying is much more prevalant at DTW & MSP.

The major bloodbath occurs at the regional level - particularly the 37-50 seat RJ operators.

Additionally, a mass dumping of the DC-9's without replacement aircraft coming online would cause NWA ALPA to go ballistic. Currently the -9 flying accounts for over 1,000 NWA pilots.


25 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : DL could find all sorts of uses for the 772ERs. Some could even eventually go to Hawaii service to replace non-ER 763s just to name one. I think the
26 Columba : Agreed on this one !! NW has one of the laargest A320 fleets and to replace all these aircraft with 737NGs would be a very stupid decision as it woul
27 Post contains images Gokmengs : Predictions now I see, well of course everyone is free to predict That and acquiring them through a merger is complete different worlds whatever DL w
28 NA : Such a large airline could certainly operate a 20+-strong fleet of 748Is or A380s. Routes now flown by Delta AND Northwest would be laid together and
29 Bucky707 : Read the quote below. Delta/NW is not about to take on a load of debt replacing airplanes simply to rationalize the fleet. Aircraft will be retired o
30 SNCntry32 : The attitude that the Airbus equipment would simply be dumped, because its Airbus, must be dropped now. If this NW/DL would have little overlap, why w
31 WingnutMN : I think that they should replace any domestic 767 flying with the 757-3. The economics of a full 753 over a 3/4 full 763 is rediculous. Also, what are
32 NA : I can only laugh about nationalistic thinkers who expect all Airbusses will be dropped soon after a possible merger. Do you really expect executives t
33 BrianDromey : Oh dear God, you are having a laugh? Almost 400 aircraft in less than 7 years.....not even the middle eastern carriers are taking that many BETWEEN t
34 Kaitak : I agree that it's nonsense; the fleet distribution and the management of change will be a big issue here; realistically, it's going to take as much a
35 1337Delta764 : Since Delta has recently announced that they will be installing Thompson sleeper suites on the 767-400ERs, I don't think Delta intends on dropping th
36 SLCUT2777 : I think that it is a safe assumption that the last narrow-bodies out the door at DL/NW will be the newest 752's and 753's. I even see DL switching in
37 SLCUT2777 : They will start needing replacement by as early as 2012 according to many statements made by DL management. I think this merger with NW or the possib
38 Columba : Can you give a link to that ? Well Continental will also get 787s around the same time so I don´t see a reason why they would buy second hand 767-40
39 PSU.DTW.SCE : With MEM-AMS becoming an A330-300 this summer, the only A330-200 flying to Europe will be SEA-AMS, PDX-AMS, SEA-LHR, & AMS-BOM. The balance of the 11
40 NA : Competitive, probably, as they are cheap. Attractive, certainly not. A large airline like NWDelta will need something bigger than 773ERs, not only be
41 Like2flyguy : This is from a Flight Dispatcher who works with ALL types of aircraft every day. The A319/A320 aircraft are the most fuel efficient aircraft NWA has.
42 PSU.DTW.SCE : A few misconceptions here: NW 747-400 2-class (World Business Class) 65 / 338 = 403 NW A330-300 2-class (World Business Class) 34 / 264 = 298 NW A330-
43 MCOflyer : I believe it as the 742F's need replacement. Someone mentioned the F side has lost a major contract so maybe NWA/DL will shut down its F division and
44 ORDagent : Yes DL/NW will have to rationalize the fleet. That is part of the cost savings synergy. However I'm certain it will be gradual and orderly. Remember w
45 Atmx2000 : Didn't DL's agreement with Boeing also specify that they could get slots easily? In the long term, one can expect that NW will have to bypass NRT, re
46 Post contains links DLPMMM : The agreement with Japan was revised in 1998 Here is a DOT summary of the 1998 revised agreement: http://www.dot.gov/affairs/1998/dot1898.htm The leg
47 FlyingClrs727 : Wouldn't it make sense to eventually move some of the MD-80 fleet over to cover routes currently flown by DC-9's?
48 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Perhaps, but only a short term solution. Many of these routes would be better covered by larger regional jets such as the EMB-170/175 (some will even
49 PhilSquares : " target=_blank>http://www.dot.gov/affairs/1998/dot1...8.htm That is only a press release and far from a summary of the existing bilateral. I am spec
50 Post contains images Argonaut : Might already have changed more than we think...Delta's CEO is ex-NW from the Airbus era.
51 SNCntry32 : What would the regional fleet look like?
52 Rwy04LGA : Yes, probably 'Certainly'! Don't you think that Delta has ALREADY assesed the A v B thing? It 'Certainly' appears so.
53 Rwy04LGA : Yes, probably 'Certainly'! Don't you think that Delta has ALREADY assessed the A v B thing? It 'Certainly' appears so.
54 HSVflier : i think it will take 6-8 years for the fleets to be integrated fully, DL will not get rid of any of the 757-300s i think DL will find a use for them i
55 Post contains images PM : And your point is... a little opaque if I may say so.
56 MMEPHX : wholesale fleet dumping isn't going to happen unless there is wholesale route dumping. Something has to fly the routes in operation, it's not like del
57 Coronado : I think Richard Anderson was in charge of NWA when they ordered all the A330's 200's and 300's, even though for years NWA had shown a willingness to h
58 Post contains links DLPMMM : A press release from the DOT outlining the terms of the agreement. Here is a nice history of the negotiations: http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/7000/7500/7580/
59 A380US : I would like to see if they go airbus (A330) or boeing (767-787)
60 PhilSquares : That's great but I don't need a history lesson. You are missing my point. My point involves the beyond right that NWA has and enjoys out of Japan. It
61 Post contains images Super80DFW : As some have stated above, Delta isn't going to throw away the Airbus A319/320 aircraft the morning after this happens. Some people in here are making
62 Breaker1011 : Phil, you rock. Great post, great evidence. I was just waiting for someone to post the "eww but the name change voids the bilateral" thing again.
63 SNCntry32 : MSP would become the new MEM.
64 DeltaL1011man : in a DL/NW merger? are you kidding? MSP would at least stay just like it is but i think MSP will also get PEK,PVG and HKG (after ATL-PEK/DTW-PVG and
65 AA767LOVER : I think DL should be more open-minded and take a look at the 332/333. I envisioned how attractive the DL livery would look on a A330. It would be abso
66 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : Well, time for me to put in my worth. NW A-319 parked and offered for sale. NW A-320s kept on for a while to replace older MD-88s, and all MD-90s, the
67 Breaker1011 : These little dudes offer amazing flexibility and range and there's a sizeable fleet of them - only a foolhearty DL would park these relatively new ai
68 Theoden : I did hear Doug Steinland say in December that the freight operation was losing a lot of money recently, that the 742 freighters were expensive with
69 KC135TopBoom : But, DL is already buying the B-737-700, a much more capable airplane than the A-319, and it has more range, and fits the DL fleet. The A-319/-320 wi
70 PavlovsDog : That's quite an assertion that I think you would have a hard time supporting with facts. Sales figures would indicate that they're equally good. Seei
71 Columba : Why not A350-1000. The 747 could stay a little longer. Stupid decison, moneywise they have about 60 A319 but only 10 737-700s on orde. Better cancel
72 Paddy : These are the main points as I see them: 1. Widebodies: I dont see them dumping any capable, efficient widebodies anytime soon (A332/3, 76E, 77E, 77L,
73 Bobnwa : Anderson was not in charge of NWA when they ordered the A330's. I would hope that no airlines would order or not order an aircraft because of how it
74 EvilForce : KC135 has never let facts stand in the way of making willfully ignorant posts. DL/NW would keep the latest generation of the 737 and the 320/319s unt
75 Post contains images ImperialEagle : Considering the severe indigestion major mergers cause, once everything is sorted out, no one will recognize what rises from the ashes. AND all this
76 PSU.DTW.SCE : Initially, a complete mess! Both in terms of operators & aircraft. There is a lot of cost savings to be achieved in this area and a huge game of musi
77 Post contains links DLPMMM : The rights belong to the USA government. NWA enjoys the beyond rights at the pleasure of the USA government. The USA government can change the named
78 Kaitak : One point which occurred to me and although it doesn't immediately seem relevant to fleets and aircraft acquisitions, it will certainly have a bearing
79 Cv640 : This sounds like back in 2001 with AA and TWA. I would doubt you will see a uge aircraft order after a merger. This will tie up billions and I doubt t
80 Super80DFW : C'mon, MSP would stay a hub. It just wouldn't compare with DTW. I didn't say it would turn into CVG or a PIT. The new airline isn't going to have two
81 DL767captain : Why does everyone keep saying a combined DL/NW could order Airbus? If DL is the purchaser and it becomes DL then i severely doubt they will ever order
82 SNCntry32 : I disagree. I think MSP will stay at its current capacity as far as flights go. If Memphis is axed, that frees up a lot of birds to come to MSP and D
83 SNCntry32 : PSU hit it right on the spot. The real bloodbath and fleet cut backs are going to take place at the regional level.
84 Jetlanta : OK, regarding fleet issues....here is the most likely scenario... DC-9's will be withdrawn as quickly as possible and replaced by aircraft made redund
85 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : I think this is where much of the fleet jockeying and hub bases will take place. I see more CRJ-7/9, and EMB-170/175, and as PSU.DTW.SCE pointed out,
86 Nitrohelper : If DL/NW routes don't overlap on the current DC-9 routes,why would there be consolidation? If the -9s are now making money on certain routes now ,why
87 Reltney : Every Wednesday we get an informal meeting but close held stuff is not told, but pretty good hints or"no comment" is what we here often. Its good stuf
88 Catdaddy63 : If DL truly wants to dump the Airbus fleet quickly, then it sounds to me like they are going to gut NW. Unless DL knows how to get their hands on a bu
89 Rwy04LGA : You can't figure that out? So much for stereotypes! The best arrangement and the least painful And DL still has options for more, which Boeing will g
90 JetJeanes : Im sure Fedex would be more than happy to take those 757,s but they are still in decent shape. Now the older 767,s I would not miss them at all. I bel
91 Breaker1011 : Well, bottom line - any corporation is responsible to their shareholders. In that, they are obligated to ensure suppliers are effectively allowed to
92 Surfdog75 : Good post in a sea of BS but how do you get ALPA to buy off on losing those DC-9 jobs?
93 DL767captain : your ideas make sense but i think you are getting rid of them way too soon and ordering way too much. 1) The A319s are pretty new and will work well
94 Theoden : No, I was there when he said it. And I don't mean that they won't continue doing freight on their PAX planes, just that they won't be doing freight w
95 Columba : Why do so many people believe that a combined DL/NW would not order any Airbusses ? The new airline will not be the old Delta or the old Northwest. M
96 KC135TopBoom : While the A-319 does fly with several CCs, so does the B-737-700, including the world's most successful airline (as far as making a profit is concern
97 Columba : I does not matter for most airlines if you fly the 737-700 or A319 as they both have very good economics and are about equal aircraft. I just said it
98 Bobnwa : Please elaborate on the place and date that Steenland allegedly said those things. I feel sure that it never happened. What was the occasion and who
99 Jetlanta : I assure you that the people you are meeting with are not involved in the decisions and do not have accurate information. Anyone talking about this a
100 DeltaL1011man : DL has looked at all the MD-90s in China look for something to be said after this hole merge mess is over CVG/DTW MEM/ATL there is your overlap CVG/M
101 Post contains links DL Widget Head : Seems like the new NWA Cargo President, Tom Bach thinks the cargo division will continue but did add the caveat that a new cargo customer must be fou
102 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : SLC is the MD-90 base for DL, but again I will point out that if they go after these additional MD-90s, it will only be for a short term deal since a
103 Delta767300ER : From an enthusiast point of view I'm going to say your out of your mind. Delta has several domestic routes that warrant Boeing 763's/764's such as AT
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