Apparently talks between CO and UA are becoming more serious. I know this has already been in another thread (giving credit to Alitalia744), but I thought it could be spun off as a UA and CO focus. Any other articles or info would be appreciated.
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 11 Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17918 times:
At least the fleets are similiar...the combined company will keep the A319's and A320's doing what they're doing until they're worn out.
Route structure will be VERY impressive - the combined Pacific operations (COMike with United's routes) will be a powerhouse, and domestic hubs will probably stay at SFO, DEN, IAH, ORD, IAD, and EWR, with IAD and EWR working in tandem like LAX and SFO do now.
Employees - well, that's a WHOLE 'nuther story...
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Planemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 4992 posts, RR: 35 Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17826 times:
Quoting MKE22 (Thread starter): other articles or info would be appreciated.
Talks between Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines about a merger are progressing and a deal may be announced soon, potentially triggering a similar response by Houston-based Continental Airlines and United Airlines.
AirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 17655 times:
If this does happen, hopefully CO keeps its European routes at EWR instead of the *A & NW/KLM way of things: Just send the pax to our partner's hub and they can connect again (and probably at a more confusing airport than one could find stateside). That, IMO, is the worst thing about *A.
CLE will go (or be downgraded) for the following reasons (in no particular order):
1. Little *A presence, and a combined UA/CO will most likely join *A.
2. Economically it is not as powerful as the other hubs except maybe DEN. If you look at the Globalization and World Cities Study Group and Network's study, EWR, ORD and LAX are alpha world cities, SFO is a beta world city, IAD and IAH are gamma world cities, and DEN and CLE are not on the list.
3. Compared to other hubs it is small.
4. The region is well served via ORD, IAD, and EWR.
Qazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 297 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17318 times:
I must admit that a UA/CO merger makes a lot of sense and, like many of you, I have been expecting it for quite a while.
I really do hope that this consolidation trend will continue this time and will not be bloked by Government bureaucrats who are only thinking of their own deep pockets - as they did with the UA/US attempt a few years ago.
So UA/CO merge, and CO defects from SkyTeam to Star Alliance. What happens then to US? Are they politely asked to leave the alliance? Would it represent anti-competitive issues?
Another question concerns JetBlue. With LH taking on a minority shareholding, the future of B6 is easily predictable within Star Alliance. Can this fit well with the whole UA/CO? Again any competitive issues that the Government will raise flags about?
I would truly love to see a UA/CO/B6 merger. While keeping their distinct identities (just like AF/KL) they operate as 1 company... The All Blue Team !!!
Egcarter From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 158 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17182 times:
Quoting Ozair (Reply 10): Silly question maybe, have UA left Chapter 11 and allowed to merge? I seem to have missed this information somewhere along the way.
Yes, UA left Chapter 11 two years ago...well before Delta and NWA did.
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 45 Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17165 times:
Quoting Qazar (Reply 9): Another question concerns JetBlue. With LH taking on a minority shareholding, the future of B6 is easily predictable within Star Alliance. Can this fit well with the whole UA/CO? Again any competitive issues that the Government will raise flags about?
Who knows. I have to wonder how European airlines feel about CO's extensive European network. They can't be all that thrilled. But so far, CO has conspicuously avoided invading SkyTeam territory in terms of nonhub cities in Netherlands, France and Italy, so AF/KL and AZ don't care at this point. However, I wonder if those countries would be the next target for expansion if they join Star through a merger.
As for B6, I don't think UA/CO would be thrilled with B6 becoming a Star member. The CO and DL relationship was certainly testy at times given their competing NYC hubs. But then again the reason why LH invested in B6 is because of the lack of a NYC area hub. With the EWR hub, they could switch flights over to there from JFK.
Quoting Qazar (Reply 9): I would truly love to see a UA/CO/B6 merger
There will never be a merger with B6 and CO. Too much concentration of NYC domestic operations. B6 could merge with any airline other than DL and CO, though US could pose problems. B6/AA makes the most sense to me. AA would get domestic feed at JFK for its international flights.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
Bicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17136 times:
Jet Blue is a non issue. Lufthansa bought into it because the Euro is so strong and the Dollar is in the tank. As Lufthansa has had zero influence on other investments....BMI for example.....it will have little influence on B6 as a MINORITY shareholder. Has Aloha joined Star even though United bought a minority stake in it? No. Airlines with money buy investments just as you and I do.
BOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1691 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17012 times:
I don't know if I would like UA/B6 merging because I've heard good things about B6 but have had bad experiences with UA. Assuming all hubs stay, A combined UA/B6 will have the Northeast Corridor all to themselves with hubs in BOS, JFK, and IAD. Plus they would have ORD, LAX, DEN, FLL, and MCO. Plus the government might not like that since aside from DEN, MCO, and to some extent FLL, it would be dominant in all the most economically important cities (New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, Washington, Boston). As for a three-way involving CO, forget about it. A three-way involving F9 might work though.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 7290 posts, RR: 13 Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 16956 times:
Quoting Qazar (Reply 9):
I really do hope that this consolidation trend will continue this time and will not be bloked by Government bureaucrats who are only thinking of their own deep pockets - as they did with the UA/US attempt a few years ago.
Really? How do government bureaucrats deepen their pockets by blocking mergers?
How do consumers benefit from less competition?
How's that Exxon/Mobile merger doing from the point of view of the consumer?
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30051 posts, RR: 78 Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16846 times:
Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 14): I don't know if I would like UA/B6 merging because I've heard good things about B6 but have had bad experiences with UA. Assuming all hubs stay, A combined UA/B6 will have the Northeast Corridor all to themselves with hubs in BOS, JFK, and IAD. Plus they would have ORD, LAX, DEN, FLL, and MCO. Plus the government might not like that since aside from DEN, MCO, and to some extent FLL, it would be dominant in all the most economically important cities (New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, Washington, Boston).
Absolutely not. In no way, shape, or form would UA/B6 dominate in those cities.
People often over-state United's position at LAX. American Airlines, not, United Airlines, is the single largest airline at LAX. When you add regional carriers, UA does, however, with it's especially strong intra-California network, come on top.
United is weak in the Northeast, especially at JFK, and JetBlue's pressence in DC, the Bay Area and Los Angeles, while good, is not huge. And there is absolutely no conflict at O'Hare. A hypothetical UA/B6 merger would have the combined airline operating a grand total of six extra daily flights to Chicago.
How would they have the Northeast corridor to themselves? Do Delta, US Airways, and American Airlines not exist?
In Boston, AA, DL, and US all are larger than a combined B6/UA.
In New York City, AA, CO, and DL are all larger than a combined B6/UA.
In Los Angeles, a combined UA/B6 might be largest, but WN, AS, and AA are large enough that there is no issue. I say might, because when you combine LA-area airport ops, AA, AS, or WN might still be larger. I don't know.
In DC, SF, and Chicago, a combined UA/B6 would be largest, but it wouldn't be a much different situation than what it is now.
B6/UA merging provide absolutely zero issues about a new airline being too large in any market.
Breaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16814 times:
To me the real question in a CO/UA marriage is twofold:
What to do with IAD and EWR? They are a hop, skip, and a jump apart, and function in relatively the same manner in each respective route system.
What would the combined entity be forced to "give up" to get regulatory approval (if anything)? IE - LHR slots and China authorities might be reviewed with some intensity?
Curious as to everyone's thoughts here!
Cheers,
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
MKE22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1091 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16706 times:
Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 19): To me the real question in a CO/UA marriage is twofold:
What to do with IAD and EWR? They are a hop, skip, and a jump apart, and function in relatively the same manner in each respective route system.
What would the combined entity be forced to "give up" to get regulatory approval (if anything)? IE - LHR slots and China authorities might be reviewed with some intensity?
Curious as to everyone's thoughts here!
IAD will stay, and EWR will stay.
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1): Route structure will be VERY impressive - the combined Pacific operations (COMike with United's routes) will be a powerhouse, and domestic hubs will probably stay at SFO, DEN, IAH, ORD, IAD, and EWR, with IAD and EWR working in tandem like LAX and SFO do now.
It will be like a tandem, just like LAX and SFO. There is your answer.
Breaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16675 times:
Quoting MKE22 (Reply 20): It will be like a tandem, just like LAX and SFO. There is your answer.
Could be right! But a combined 36% marketshare for UA/CO in a post DL/NW environment is a rather unprecedented figure in this industry, and I suspect regulatory approval of such a transaction will only come with some stripping and thinning somewhere along the line. UA built LAX and SFO by themselves - nothing regulators can really have done to stop that even if they wanted to. Now, will the DOT and DOJ let IAD and EWR keep their size and become a wetdream tandem operation via a merger or acquisition? I think the jury is out on that one. I think this will definately get interesting.
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
MKE22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1091 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16658 times:
Quoting Breaker1011 (Reply 21): and I suspect regulatory approval of such a transaction will only come with some stripping and thinning somewhere along the line.
Of course, with mergers there always is. They will downsize somewhere, with my guess being CLE for several reasons. I do think CLE will remain a secondary hub or focus city at least. However, CLE is pretty close to ORD which is a big factor.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 18502 posts, RR: 51 Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16616 times:
I'd say make EWR a more O&D focused operations with flights timed for NY demand and not the large evening European bank perse, while IAD which has more room to grown and significantly less ATC issues can serve more as the E-W and even East Coast N-S transfer hub. UA's SFO/LAX hubs work this way with SFO more focused on transfer traffic while LAX is significantly more an O&D focused hub driven by local demand.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Breaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16608 times:
Considering ORD's strength, I just wouldn't think CLE would make the cut as a true hub, but stranger things have happened. But I don't think even cutting flights down to the wire at CLE (it's a relatively medium sized hub) would be enough "thinning" to get a deal to go through. Aside from owning way too much of the domestic market, I think some of the issues will revolve around LHR slots and China authorities as well.
Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
25 United1: I don't think that UA/CO is quite at 36% market share UA itself has 18% of the market and CO is a wee bit smaller then that.
26 Jetpixx: As a CLE native, I hope that this deal doesn't come through...I am weary of seeing a merger for CO with another airline with a hub so close. Cleveland
28 CO767FA: Where were MSP, DTW, SLC, ATL, PHX in that study? Better yet, provide a link to the study. In a CO/UA hookup...DEN would go no where but up...more in
29 United1: the link is dead but wow I didnt think that they were that large combined.
30 Ytib: to where? Keep in mind there are limited international gates as well.
31 CO767FA: Europe, Asia, South America ....While there are currently limited gates, the airport has plenty of room for expansion.
32 NYC2theworld: How many flights in EWR are profitable because of the domestic connections that CO provides? If those flights a dropped, be rest assured the O&D traf
33 Breaker1011: Would be interesting to see, but, I think the combined entity's heavy trans-oceanic operations at LAX/SFO on the one coast, and IAD/EWR on the other,
34 LAXdude1023: Ill do it for him/her. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city Keep in mind, that this study is in line with the contribution the cities make to the
35 PavlovsDog: I don't see any reason why CLE would be downgraded. As it is, there isn't that much of a hub operation at CLE. It pales in comparison to CVG or DTW as
36 Atmx2000: That would be a terrible mistake. The EWR operation is part successful because it provides one stop connections between cities in the US to many impo
37 BOStonsox: I'm a him. That is true but it is all relevant. ATL and DFW may not be that powerful, but that is because of more connections than O&D. This is why N
38 LAXdude1023: Well I wouldnt go that far. Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York City might be Alpha world cities, but Dallas is a 6 point Gamma World city and Atlanta
39 Thrust: the merger would also do United some good because they are also weak in the South. CO's hub in Houston would probably be a big bonus for UA.
40 UAL777UK: Absolutely, UA stated many months ago they wanted to merge with an airline with a Southern hub and CO's fits very weill with this. As a regular UA fl
41 CO767FA: I truly think many here still don't have much of a clue as to the relevance DEN will continue to play in the developing aviation market (not overnigh
42 STT757: Gordon Bethune talks up CO/UAL merger in Q&A; http://www.nj.com/business/ledger/in...244904097690.xml&coll=1&thispage=1
43 Manfredj: To bad for the Europeans. This is a WELL run airline. My initial thought is that United will get the better end of this bargain. The one good thing f
44 NorCal: I hope the CO management team stays, they have proven they know how to run an airline In the past I would agree with you, but if DL/NW get approved I
45 EXAAUADL: This merger is a customer service and employee disaster waiting to happen
46 NYC2theworld: Question....Since UA currently shares all TATL profits with LH, how would a merger with CO (and thus end their TATL revenue sharing agreement) would a
47 Birdbrainz: That's true, but it's a little too far west to hit the heart of the southeast market. There's not much west of Houston in terms of big cities that De
48 Ytib: Yes there is room for expansion, however international gates is a different story since it is limited to the A concourse. While there has been discus
49 EXAAUADL: They wouldnt be that big..the Chicago Trib is wrong.It certainly wouldnt be 8 share points larger than DL/NW.
50 Breaker1011: You know, I was thinking the same thing last night. The article doesn't explain the figures of course. Forget the DL entity versus the CO team - toget
51 Jfr: So what does American do? Once again, they're frozen out of getting a substantial Asian presence.
52 FlyASAGuy2005: AA is still very viable by themselves and they are still quit fortunite to STILL have LAX, ORD, DFW, MIA, SJU and JFK. I just can't think of anyone t
53 CO767FA: If CO approaches the city and proposes additional International Service, the city will jump to get customs expanded...just like the Port Authority di
54 Breaker1011: I dont think anyone disagrees with that likelihood - however I think most feel that DEN just isn't the first place that a UA/CO combination would loo
55 COewrAAtysAZ: That would be a disaster. EWR is our most profitable hub and we owe that to the excellent connecting traffic that originate domestically and connect
56 Breaker1011: Yep, like I said, I suspect that DL/NW will be snickering at the UA/CO integration woes, at least for a while, until Peachtreers start crying that th
57 United319: UA is in no way dwindling down. They made a substantial profit in 2007, and are expanding more now than they have in quite a few years. That doesn't
58 STT757: CO would not share their revenues, CO's profit margins on their Trans-Atlantic routes are excellent. One of the major reasons why CO was the only leg
59 CO767FA: I can agree with that, but only time and an actual marriage of the carriers will tell what CO will do with DEN.
60 AirFrnt: There is no shortage of international gates. CO already has one there for example. IF there needed to be a expansion, it would be relativly trivial t
61 MKE22: For what reason? NW / DL combined will become the largest airline in the world if and when they combine. They will have a very good structure of hubs
62 Nyc2theworld: The SYD-LAX-JFK flight UA839 and return 840...But I just checked united.com, there's a plane change involved on that route, so its just as if you are
64 MKE22: I have a question. I have heard some things about these merged airlines having to divest in order to get approval of a merger or something. Now after
65 Tsaord: OK this is really taking me by surprise. Merger talks were on the rise but they just now have seem to hit full steam all at once. 4 of the 6(it is 6 r
67 N766UA: Have you ever been to Cleveland? With CAL's recent upgrades, the forthcoming terminal improvements, runway extensions, etc, CLE is in a great positio
68 WorldTraveler: The correct market share for DL/NW is 26% and for UA/CO 28% based on 2007. Source, Aviation Daily. But CO's profit margin for the whole year still tr
69 Gigneil: That is just wrong in every possible way. Wall Street could not give a shit about total profits at the end of the year. They are concerned with conti
70 Breaker1011: Have to love the media - so reliable when it comes to our hobby! Sigh
71 COewrAAtysAZ: Absolutely 100% wrong. The reason why there are all these merger discussions is that the belief is a smaller number of larger airlines will ultimatel
72 Frontierflyer: UA profits have come at the expense of cutting everywhere. UA has a barebone operation where as CO has a "meaty" one. If you don't invest in the futur
74 WorldTraveler: you have no clue. There are many industries that have seasonal variations in profitability and the investment community understands that as part of t
75 STT757: The first bankruptcy was 26 years ago, and CO was a fraction of the size they are now. That had little effect on their operations today. You totaly c
76 DocLightning: Um. One serves Washington, D.C., which is a huge market for both domestic and international fights. The other serves New York CIty, which is a huge m
77 ER757: I was actually thinking that a merged CO/UA would need a hub in the Southeast. A crazy thought occured to me - if DL/NW get together and "de-hub" MEM
78 WorldTraveler: perhaps you need to look up the word "several" in the dictionary. 9/11 was 6 1/2 years ago, far beyond the reasonable definition of "several". And yo
79 MKE22: Keyword being IF. NW / DL could still use it as a focus city. I think they are more so after IAH only right now, and may not need a Southeast hub. If
80 Globaldude: By saying " If CO was sure of its ability to continue to compete on a standalone basis, it wouldn't be entertaining merger talks." Can't the same be s
81 PavlovsDog: This is what I wrote: I don't see any reason why CLE would be downgraded. As it is, there isn't that much of a hub operation at CLE. It pales in compa
82 United1: Perhaps Frontier should take a lesson. Lets see.... New International Lie flat Seats in F New International Lie flat Seats in J Leather seats in Y Up
83 United1: CLE is in kind of an interesting position, its a bit to close to ORD for UA/CO to probably want to grow it drastically but its also far enough away t
84 Bmacleod: If CO does agree to leave Skyteam for Star, the Star group would have 2 U.S. (USAir UA/CO) carriers as opposed to SkyTeam single DL-NW carrier. Curren
85 Style: This couldn't be a Merger thread without WT trying to make CO as the ugly duckling. So who is at the front of the pack? You can't say it's DL, if the
86 MKE22: I think that they would stay in SkyTeam, due to the fact that CO is the surviving brand.
87 MasseyBrown: What is your blind spot on the subject of CO's profitability? They are far above average year in and year out. Nine months of 2007 (numbers in milion
88 Mariner: Why? Was United profitable last quarter? mariner
89 WorldTraveler: Of course it does. I've never said that DL didn't recognize the need to merge. they are just doing it from a position of strength so that they are th
90 William: If UA and CO are forced into a shotgun wedding that means alot little details will need be settled such as.........oh ......which name survives, whose
91 Frontierflyer: How about investing in new planes! Those improvements you mentioned are purely cosmetic, UA needs a transplant surgery. Its like putting expensive ri
92 United1: Did Frontier? the momentt you started spouting how spouting how horible an airline UA is you opened it up mate.
93 United1: Um no AA and US are larger then DL at LGA. So reality check WT, EWR is in the new york area and is actualy more conveniant for a good part of NYC the
94 Frontierflyer: Take a chill pill dude! I never said UA was a horrible airline. I just said CO could do a lot better. Ok?
95 United1: Found this link a few minutes after I posted. Looks like DLs comes in #4 for market share. Still nothing to sneeze at but CO, AA, and B6 carried more
96 Mariner: No. That's the point. But both were profitable the previous quarter. In one case, more than double estimates. mariner
97 COEWR787: OK this caught my attention and left me confused, so perhaps you can explain what you are trying to say using the example of UA and CO. For fiscal ye
98 United1: No its not OK...I'm absolutely sick and tired of reading on this and other boards about how horrible that UA is or how CO could do better or blah bla
99 Panamair: What he said/meant was that DL has the largest slot portfolio at JFK and LGA combined. While AA and US are larger than DL at LGA, when looking at the
100 Style: Such an operation that DL never decided to make it a 'hub' (which we both know it isn't) up until about 2 years ago. You combining JFK with LGA is pu
101 Sh0rtybr0wn: No chance. You think US Airways will be Star Alliance's only US member? CO will bring more class to *Alliance, and now it will be easier to accrue *
102 Frontierflyer: Now you make sense! UA and CO should stand alone.
103 United1: Yes your right that is what he said. Either way its still wrong AA and B6 still fly more flights out of a combined JFK/LGA then DL does.
104 STT757: Around that same time CO launched their Global Gateway Expansion at EWR, a $1.3 Billion dollar investment that brought a brand new 19 gate FIS equipp
105 OA412: I don't remember B6 ever indicating they were joining Star.
106 United1: While I agree with what you are saying STT757 B6 is not part of star....yet
107 STT757: True perhaps I'm looking to much into comments made by both companies such as this; http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...cles/newstex/AFX-0013-2243
108 Mariner: And I believe they should remain stand alone carriers. If a strategic acquisition presents itself, then yes, go for it, but not merge for the sake of
109 United1: It could mean that LH/B6 are talking about bringing B6 into star it could also mean that they are talking about a limited codeshare, baggage transfer
110 Bobnwa: I did look it up in the dictionary and it said more than two or three. 6 1/2 years ago woul seem to qualify. WT give us all a break and be the best c
111 STT757: CO is the only US carrier which owns their own caterer (Chelsea flight kitchen), which is why CO is the only US carrier to still offer complimentary m
112 MKE22: Hey man it's alright, UA is a good airline. Just chill out a little bit. This is about a good thing happening for both UA and CO, not bashing UA. You
113 Klkla: Even though they are geographically close they are both hugely profitable and serve two of the best O&D markets in the country. Also, neither could h
114 United1: I think that the moment that a DL/NW merger became a likely event (putting aside all the DOJ issues theres a pretty strong probability that it will a
115 MKE22: O, I thought that CO was the buyer. DL was the buyer for the DL / UA deal so I assumed that UA was trying to be sold. I know that DL has stated it mu
116 Panamair: The conventional wisdom is that CO management would survive but even the most rabid CO supporter will likely admit that the new airline will be calle
117 Klkla: You are probably right that Continental will be the buyer (or surviving entity) but probably in the same way as AmericaWest and USAir. America West w
118 Panamair: Actually, that's not true. I don't have time to count the exact number of flights for you right now but here are the facts: DL will have about 200 de
119 MKE22: O i didn't know that. Thats interesting. I think CO sounds more like an international airline to me, but UA may survive as the name.
120 Lufthansa411: Maybe if this proposed UA/CO merger goes through, SIA will not be so quick to modify it's SIN-EWR service. I know they have agreements with CO right n
121 MAH4546: Yet American Airlines is the largest carrier at LGA, not Delta. And both American Airlines and JetBlue carry more passengers than Delta at JFK. If yo
122 Ocracoke: Time out. I know everyone likes to jump on WT, but as a neutral observer with no dog in this fight, I have to say a lot of you are doing exactly that
125 MasseyBrown: OK, at your request, we'll use EBITDAR margins for the 12 months ending Sep, 07 NW 15.6% CO 15% DL 14% AA 13.5% US 13.4% UA 11.6% Source: http://www.
126 MilesDependent: EBITDAR Earnings Before Interest, Tax, Depn, Amortisation and RENT. I have worked in corporate finance for many years and never come across that term.
127 Klkla: I like the name too. Continental sort of suggests they fly on one continent. InterContinental would sound more international I suppose. United though
128 FriendlySkies: Everyone here seems to assume CO would be doing the buying. Don't forget that UA is sitting on over $5 billion in cash. If anything, I'd think the com
129 STT757: Absolutely, it will be a friendly merger. CO management in charge airline name, most likely UAL (not 100%) Houston the HQ.
130 CB777: If this merger does materialize, will there be a new United livery introduced?
131 Frontierflyer: UA has Three class intl service ex plus new leather seats (planned) snack boxes for sale MESA! second bag charge CO has business first regular coach p
132 Pa747sp: Si, this means that CO will finally be back in DEN as a hub. Funny how things go around.
133 MasseyBrown: It is meant to remove the "lease vs buy" consideration from measuring pure operating costs. It has also been called "Earnings Before Expenses". It de
134 Frontierflyer: UA has Three class intl service ex plus new leather seats (planned) snack boxes for sale MESA! second bag charge CO has business first regular coach p
135 FriendlySkies: I'd say that 3 class service, explus (along with p.s.), econ +, and sadly, the glutton of 50 seaters would all stay. Most of UA's international FFs wo
136 EMB170: You're right about the pensions...how would CO be able to protect its own people's pensions while telling UA's people they can't have any...does not
137 Fllcontinental: I think that the UA P.S 757s would be used international as a 3-class service for the longer low-capacity routes.
138 Frontierflyer: You make a great point about the pension issue. More reason for CO to go alone, stay with skyteam and feed the new DL if they want Asia if that is wh
139 CB777: I think the DOJ will not stomach two major mergers. The political pressure will be a major factor in killing these mergers. I also think that American
140 Toxtethogrady: My version of the two-fold question is 1. Whose management leads, and 2. Will the headquarters be in Houston or Chicago. My preferred answer is CO Ma
141 Style: Totally agree. Everybody seems to think that AA will just sit back and watch their dominance disappear into oblivion. Who's to say AA isn't waiting o
142 FlyingClrs727: I think the P.S 757's were deliberately chosen for transcons, because they have lower thrust engines that make them incapable of transatlantic routes
143 MKE22: Eh, it could happen, but AA is pretty well established already. Who would they merge with? Definitely not UA.
144 Klkla: The combined DL/NW market share of 21% and the combined UA/CO market share of 23% do not come close to the threshold of what defines anti-trust by th
145 STT757: Absolutely not, if anything I would look for a huge boost in orders for the Q-400. The economics are just too good.
146 TWFirst: I cannot reveal my source... but it is from the inside...so if y'all want to flame me or disregard the following, feel free. That said - The CO brand
147 CB777: I hope so I hope so, its going to be interesting to see A320's in CO colors
149 CB777: I know, I think Boeing is talking to CO about their future fleet planes. I am hoping for a 777w order
150 DIA77: Do you have any other preliminary information that you can reveal? I'm sure things are the negotiations are changing things every minute, but it woul
151 TWFirst: I don't right now... but if I hear anything further, will pass along. And yes, I don't frame this as set in stone... things change rapidly. But I was
152 Mcdu: I have to disagree vehemently with your position. UAL has a young fleet compared to some of the fleets at the other carriers. The 767's are all early
153 MaverickM11: I'm not sure what you include as "real" but the order is CO, then DL, then AA, then B6 in terms of ASMs, for LGA/JFK/EWR. In terms of departures, add
154 Klkla: I agree with you on your basic point that UA's fleet is relatively young. There is nothing that absolutely has to be replaced in the next couple of y
155 FriendlySkies: Well, I'll be the first to disregard this I guess. While I'm sure your "source" is good, I don't know why CO would dump the UA name even if they boug
156 MKE22: I think this must have been tough to squeeze out of someone either way. I don't mind that CO is the surviving brand.
157 Mcdu: Maybe I caught them on an off day. I think DAL is great airline and have had many good travel experiences on them. The flights I traveled were from A
158 Pizzaandplanes: I should have asked what Gordon Bethune thought of the merger when I sat just 1 row ahead of him in first class today from MCO-EWR. [Edited 2008-02-11
159 Sh0rtybr0wn: But how will it stay? Like AF KLM, One company but 2 airline brands? Maybe the CO management can show UA how to make money while serving meals. Of co
160 Frontierflyer: I don't know where you get the idea that I'm frustrated. I'm not lashing out at UA, I just think CO is better alone for many reasons. 757, 733,735 an
161 Breaker1011: You didnt catch them on an off day - I've flown DL F class dozens and dozens of times in the last 12 months and they do not offer linens in F domesti
162 HNL-Jack: Most of these threads sound like they're based on emotion, but to think CO could buy UA is not even worth considering. It won't and can't happen. CO's
163 SCCutler: Brand awareness is not always a good thing- if it were, we'd all be flying PanAm and TWA across the oceans! UAL has had some serious hickies just her
164 Bobnwa: So are you saying your inside source is attending the merger meetings between CO/UA? Is he with CO or UA? If you regard this as flame, then so be it,
165 UAL777UK: Prey tell how the name can be United but the Continental brand will stay. You comments make no sense whatsoever!
166 WorldTraveler: Yes, you are right. I have way too harsh on CO and too generous with UA. While CO has been able to remain profitable, it is no longer producing top ti
167 Letsgetwet: How do you figure? When DL and NW both made less $$ than CO last year. CO is paying their employees almost as much in their profit sharing program as
168 Bobnwa: Where are you getting your numbers from? Yout statement does not hold water. Pre tax earnings 2007 CO $566 million DL $604 million NW 764 million Pro
169 LAXdude1023: I wouldnt bet any money on that. Only a group of morons would base an airline in Chicago just because its Chicago. What it will boil down to is: whic
170 CMB320: Exactly. These Chicago lovers are being so ridiculous thinking the team running the show would all just pick up and move to Chicago just because it's
171 MaverickM11: It's a big hot dump, but it's cheap, and that's much more important than whether it's a "great" city.
172 TWFirst: Exactly what doesn't make sense? The Continental brand.... i.e. the Continental name... is staying. United's is going bye bye. Clear?
173 Letsgetwet: When you consider the difference in size between these airlines (return on assets) CO did much better.
174 Bobnwa: CO is larger than NWA and made quite a bit less profit. How do you explain that? What about your claim that CO is paying their employees almost as mu
175 STT757: CO has 70+ gates at EWR where there are no slots, CO handles more travelers at EWR vs AA at EWR, JFK and LGA combined. In the NY Market it's 1.) CO 2
176 ADXMatt: CO and CO Micronesia are not small players in the Pacific and are a known and trusted brand. CO is also a known and trusted brand in Europe as well.
177 JRDC930: 1) Am i the only one here getting tire of all the "?/? Merger talks" posts? 2) Does any one here think the DOT/DOJ are just going to sit around and le
178 United1: I continue to find it amazing that you exclude EWR from your comparison. EWR/LGA/JFK all serve NYC, they are all run by the same agency and even DL c
179 Tommy767: I thought AA was #1 in terms of pax in the NYC area? They had a commercial a year or two ago which mentioned that.
180 STT757: It's been CO for a long time, they have AA beat by several Million not including COEX. When you include COEX CO handled about 24 Million passengers l
181 STT757: Not including regional partners the list of largest carriers in the NYC market looks like this; 1.) CO 21.8 Million 2.) B6 15.3 Million 3.) AA 14.3 Mi
182 FriendlySkies: Just because you said so? What's to say your so called source isn't just blowing hot air?
183 UAL777UK: My point exactly.....this we have all seen before, its all hot air, nothing has been agreed whatsoever and if it has its not in the public domain. I
184 WorldTraveler: wrong. EWR IS slot controlled just like the rest of NYC or will be soon. It is part of the NYC airspace issues. I haven't excluded EWR from the compa
186 WorldTraveler: but there will be. It is part of the NYC airspace management program that imposed slots at JFK in addition to EWR. And you know it.
187 United1: As there are currently no slots in EWR I would have to say none. However CO flies around 420 flights a day out of EWR about 60% mainline and the rest
188 STT757: The new cap restrictions have only been approved for JFK and LGA, Peters stated her intention to do "something" to keep traffic from moving to EWR. U
189 MKE22: I think if they could find the space, then another long parallel runway may help alleviate congestion at EWR. They have the 2 4/22 s at 10,000 and 11
190 FlyingClrs727: What about the 5th freedom rights in Japan? They specify United and aren't necessarliy transferrable to a new owner. Yes United bought those rights f
191 COSPN: The Q400 will Use 11/29 that should free up some thing a bit
192 TWFirst: Yes. Yes. Yes. Of course not just because I said so. I'm simply passing along some valid information... yes, information directly from the merger dis
193 HNL-Jack: "Air Mike" is not a big player in Asia. They're a big player in Guam flying their 738's to several cities in Asia. CO itself has been a "niche" brand
194 CO767FA: What is your point? CO will start serving LHR next month and already serves FRA....and CGN, TXL, HAM...don't even get me started with the number of c
195 United319: Thats all a bunch of garbage. They aren't telling us (ua employees) on the "inside" anything, they aren't even addressing the issue right now. I do t
196 MAH4546: Any CO/UA merger that keeps the CO name is idiotic. The United brand name is far more recognized, and while CO is certainly recognized for it's qualit
197 OA412: Agree 100%! Given the far larger size of UA and the greater recognition of the UA brand, it would be absolutely stupid to keep the CO name and get ri
198 Mattnrsa: So your friend is passing on confidential information regarding a complex, controversial merger and you go straight to the internet discussion boards
199 Rampart: As for whomever retains the surviving name... I think CO's business reputation and their recognized quality of service cannot be dismissed. In both ca
200 COalways: Even though United has more kinda of a meaning for America, Continental is more recognized for there outstanding Inflight Service and good Customer s
201 MAH4546: The UA name will be kept in any merger that does not involve AA or DL. They have a larger frequent flyer base and a more recognized brand-name. Is th
202 Kiwiandrew: I suspect that regardless of reach or reputation the surviving entity in any UA/CO merger would have to be called United to facilitate the whole busin
203 Rampart: No disrespect, but I think there are. Apparently others do as well. To a dispationate observer, your solid belief is about equal to those of the othe
204 Rampart: It was mentioned in previous news that UA was willing to abadon Star Alliance in a merger deal, if it came to that. If so, SkyTeam becomes a much lar
205 MAH4546: Correct, it didn't stop HP from adopting US, and it won't stop CO from adopting UA. Brand recognition is far more important than brand-quality percep
206 Rampart: You and I (and others) had this argument over Virgin, didn't we! Ah, yes. Virgin America Loses 34.8M In First Quarter (by Whosee Dec 17 2007 in Civil
207 JoFMO: I think speculation about the headquarter or the name is quite irrelevant. Who cares. they shall use whatever makes the most sense business wise. Besi
208 Bobnwa: It has been pointed out numerous times on this board that the 5th freedom rights out of Japan are owned by the US government and not UA or NW. The ri
209 WorldTraveler: Outside of its hubs, CO has a very small name for itself. There are rankings of the top 3 carriers by market throughout the US and CO ranks very low
210 MaverickM11: On the other hand, Air Tran/Valujet adopted the much less recognizable "AirTran" for obvious reasons
211 TWFirst: Precisely. Those here who want to dismiss the notion outright should take a deep breath and face who is in the driver's seat of this potential transa
212 Panamair: Just curious why you think this will fall through... Also got me thinking - if DL-NW comes to fruition, how desparate (for lack of a better word) wil
213 United1: Ummm, how do you come to the conclusion that CO is in the drivers seat? As has been pointed out by numerouse people on this board neither CO or UA ha
214 LGAtoIND: Mark, out of curiosity, what is your reasoning behind this?
215 Rampart: Not based on what I read here, but rather from news reports (though reiterated here), UA appears that they are looking for a merger, and not necessar
216 United1: My point of view, if you've been reading what I've been posting, is that the end result will be a compromise by both parties. I dont see how thats on
217 Rampart: You are right, and I modify my earlier opinion! You aren't being one sided on that issue. I don't see most of the other opinions as one sided, either
218 Like2flyguy: How many times is this statement going to be made on here? The 5th Freedom Rights were granted to the United States by Japan. In the agreement, the U
219 COalways: Disagree CO name is just large for itself they are worldly known for the Award Winning Inflight Service and many international routes. And ther prett
220 MKE22: OK by my understanding, this wouldn't last forever, but could anyone see CO and UA surviving as separate liveries on a temporary basis? US and HP did
221 HNL-Jack: [ Seems like it would only complicate the issues discussed in this thread. Probably better to address them up front and get them out of the way.
222 WorldTraveler: I didn't say CO doesn't have a good product and isn't known for its high quality service. I did say and will repeat that CO doesn't have the market s
223 HNL-Jack: [ I couldn't agree more. And, let's keep in mind with all the bashing of UA, NW and DL for their recent bankruptcies, that is was CO only after two ba
224 SCCutler: Quite mistaken you are. CO was crossing both oceans well before UAL, and UAL established their trans-Pac presence through acquisition of PanAm assets
225 Breaker1011: Now that's the BEST idea I've seen on A-net in a long time. Braniff. Believe it.
226 United319: UGH thank you!!! That is all I need to say. Im behind you 100% United1. People are frequently confusing a merger and an aquisition. The merger betwee
227 MKE22: What hub(s) are you thinking of? ORD, IAD, SFO, DEN, EWR, IAH, GUM - No. LAX and CLE are maybes, but LAX probably isn't going anywhere. CLE is the on
228 Bobnwa: By your definition of merger vs acquisition, I don't think there has ever been a true merger in the airline industry. By the way, I agree with your d
229 MKE22: The NW / DL deal is done! Will this speed up talks between these 2?
230 CB777: Let's see what the DOJ has to stay about all these mergers...
231 CMB320: Yeah no kidding, I think everybody's getting a little ahead of themselves here.
232 MKE22: Well we have an update. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...OHDIgS_68-hMtfVgfUHpewh-gD8UQC02G1
233 HNL-Jack: Associated Press 2/14/08: "The Chicago Tribune reported that United hasn't ruled out bidding for Delta if Delta can't close the deal with Northwest. T
235 FriendlySkies: Like I said before...UA is sitting on a mountain of cash. I think everyone is assuming that United is going to just agree with anything to get a merge
236 Landingshortly: Whoever United will be merging with, they will keep the UA brand and name. Period. United has a spledind corporate identity that's known all over the
237 Sh0rtybr0wn: Good points. But the "United" name can remind one of the United States, which isn't very popular worldwide at this point in time. Continental is a sl
238 COalways: Hopefully no one will merge so my beloved Connie can stay as a Stand Alone carrier and still gain there profits!!!
239 Srbmod: Please continue the discussion here: Continental-United Merger Talks Begin PT 2. (by Srbmod Feb 14 2008 in Civil Aviation)
240 ADXMatt: CO substitutes a B767 from time to time. We had some last week during Mardi Gras. The new name of the combined company will be..... drum roll please.
Sponsor Message: 
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Why?
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It will be like a tandem, just like LAX and SFO. There is your answer.
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