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DL/NW - Future Changes To NRT Flying?  
User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11132 times:

If there's interest in this topic I like to just keep it specific to this question, and avoid loading it with any other merger mania!

What are some pending opportunities for expanded NRT flying for a combined DL/NW? I'm not 100% certain of the total NRT slots that would be held, as well as total route entitlements held under the bilateral. But, some thoughts -

JFK-NRT is a no-brainer, hubs on both ends now should make it a winner and very competitive against AA and CO.

What about SLC? Perhaps with a hub on both ends, there's enough strength there to warrant reallocating a slot and an authority to SLC-NRT? I suppose it might actually become more of a winner than PDX-NRT is right now for NW.


Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
157 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12411 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11066 times:

I would assume most of the NW slots at NRT would transfer to DL; I can't see why they wouldn't. If the slots belong to NW and DL buys NW, then they will be operated by DL.

I think the hub will be more effective, because you will have the addition of DL's flights from ATL (and LAX, if they will fly that route); maybe one or two of the less successful routes out of NRT could be swapped for a new t/p flight.


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3083 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11047 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Thread starter):
What about SLC? Perhaps with a hub on both ends, there's enough strength there to warrant reallocating a slot and an authority to SLC-NRT? I suppose it might actually become more of a winner than PDX-NRT is right now for NW.

Given that UA has a similar presence in Asia to NW, and hasn't started NRT service from DEN (a much larger market and hub), makes me think that SLC wouldn't be too promising.

Regarding PDX, I'm not sure how the route does. However, it does provide a relief valve for the overloaded SEA-NRT flights, and also had incentives from local corporations at launch. Regardless, it's questionable if the 767/332 could even make SLC-NRT nonstop. If SLC-CDG is going to test the limits on the 767, SLC-NRT would be downright impossible.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
I think the hub will be more effective, because you will have the addition of DL's flights from ATL (and LAX, if they will fly that route); maybe one or two of the less successful routes out of NRT could be swapped for a new t/p flight.

NW already flies LAX-NRT. To me the only logical additions would be JFK and BOS. These would be good 787 candidates. Assuming those two destinations were added, the NRT hub would be fed by LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA, MSP, DTW, ATL, JFK, BOS. Not too shabby, and provides good one-stop service to just about any important market in the Far East.


User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11026 times:



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 2):
Given that UA has a similar presence in Asia to NW, and hasn't started NRT service from DEN (a much larger market and hub), makes me think that SLC wouldn't be too promising.

Excellent point, and I was thinking about that. I wonder, in recent years UA has done more overfly of NRT and actually has cut back the "hub" there (I think there are only 3 fifth freedom routes left as of this summer). Perhaps that is that why UA hasn't moved to launch DEN-NRT? In addition, the use of LAX and SFO both as pacific hubs for UA would also seem to take-away from DEN's shot at trans-pac service on the same airline.

NW is still operating quite a hub from NRT to SE Asia and the islands - so a true hub-to-hub paradigm may give SLC a better shot. Plus, neither DL or NW operate a trans-pac "hub" per se on the west coast. While LAX, SFO, SEA and PDX to NRT flights would exist, the opportunity to fly connections from SLC to NRT onwards to the more boutique SE Asian destinations seems more robust than UA's potential in DEN.

Thanks for your thoughts RW..



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3895 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10985 times:

I doubt much if anything will happen. If anything, the NRT hub will grow and continue to prosper. After all, that's what makes NWA attractive to Delta. More China service to secondary markets from NRT will probably occur and of course, NRT overflying once the 787s arrive.


AZJ


User currently offlineCV640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10738 times:

Merger or no merger, we've been told JFK-NRT is very likely when the 787s start coming on line. I guess we will see. If there is a merger NRT will continue to be very important. Its a critical piece of NW.

User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2951 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10354 times:

Not much can happen at NRT because of the slot situation.
They can add JFK because that slot is probably being unused at the moment. Any large expansion regardless of destination has to wait until 2010.

It would be interesting to see DL/NW put a 744 on a NRT-ATL.


User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10340 times:

Can you tell us what happens in 2010 that might open up more slots? I've not heard that date before in regards to this..

Thanks!



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32627 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10324 times:



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
They can add JFK because that slot is probably being unused at the moment.

Unused slots expire at Narita after 90 days.



a.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10284 times:



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 4):
I doubt much if anything will happen. If anything, the NRT hub will grow and continue to prosper. After all, that's what makes NWA attractive to Delta. More China service to secondary markets from NRT will probably occur and of course, NRT overflying once the 787s arrive.

my guess is NRT will stay just like it is adding ATL-NRT on a 744 and JFK on a 772.......BOS later with a 787

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
Not much can happen at NRT because of the slot situation.
They can add JFK because that slot is probably being unused at the moment. Any large expansion regardless of destination has to wait until 2010.

It would be interesting to see DL/NW put a 744 on a NRT-ATL.

will most likely become a 744 and the 772 will go to JFK as for the slot it is probably leased out (they will need at least 2 for BOS and JFK)


my guess is DL will slowly start over flying NRT via LAX and ATL but I do not see any flights leaving NRT. UA has SFO/LAX and i think DL will have LAX/NRT. Also i think the days of NRT-Asia with 744s will end and DL will rework the NRT hub so they can use the 744s from LAX. (i would guess sending more A333s to NRT along with 767s)

I'm pretty sure we will see many more 73Gs 77Ls and 787s ordered this year and maybe some 77Ws for 774 replacement.



yep.
User currently offlineFlyNTE From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10263 times:

DEN-NRT O&D traffic is nearly double SLC-NRT O&D traffic. I would like to hope that DEN would have NRT service before SLC, but the numbers aren't the only part of the equation.

Even with its 16,000-foot runway DEN's altitude is one of the many reasons why UA does not operate DEN-NRT. The 747-400 can make it, but it's simply too large an aircraft for the thin market. UA's 777s are unable to make it due to braking systems and tires. These are the basic reasons... I'm not familiar with all of the technical details.

Let's not forget that DEN still doesn't have UA nonstop service to LHR - DEN's largest international O&D market... that service doesn't begin until next month. UA's strategy is to push its international flights to ORD, IAD, SFO and LAX. DEN is primarily a domestic connect point.

DEN will see NRT service eventually... most likely on a 787 operated by a foreign-flag Star Alliance carrier. LH has been very successful in DEN.... No reason to believe that Asian service can't be just as successful.

A couple of things happen in 2010...
1. NRT's second runway will be expanded, allowing for increased operations.
2. The possibility of HND being opened up for transpacific service - this is currently under discussion as part of the U.S.-Japan bilateral negotiations.

These comments are slightly off the main topic but I thought I would follow up on the DEN comments.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10250 times:



Quoting FlyNTE (Reply 10):
1. NRT's second runway will be expanded, allowing for increased operations.
2. The possibility of HND being opened up for transpacific service - this is currently under discussion as part of the U.S.-Japan bilateral negotiations.

wait wasn't HND closed? now they want to re-open it?



yep.
User currently offlineFlyNTE From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10239 times:

HND is not closed... It handles over 60 million passengers per year, nearly double NRT. It's a domestic airport, with a couple of flights to PVG and SEL.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32627 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10239 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):

wait wasn't HND closed? now they want to re-open it?

Not at all. HND is the busiest airport in Tokyo and one of the busiest airports in the world, much busier than Narita. It is closed to most international flights.



a.
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9297 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10204 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
It is closed to most international flights.

this is what i meant to say my bad



yep.
User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 871 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10069 times:

NW's 5th freedom rights in Japan cannot be transferred to another carrier, thus it seems to me that Northwest will remain to operate these flights, unless some sort of agreement is made.

I don't think SLC has the market to sustain a NRT flight, although it would be ideal. Oddly enough, despite SLC's hub status, it seems to have limited access to eastern US markets. DTW gets only one DL flight to SLC per day. It's hard to operate a hub to/thru a city that see very limited service as it is. The feed needed to operate international flights just isn't there either. Good location though for funneling traffic to the interior west.



LH 442
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10055 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
will most likely become a 744 and the 772 will go to JFK as for the slot it is probably leased out (they will need at least 2 for BOS and JFK)

BOS, eh? What are the numbers to support a 777 on BOS?

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
I'm pretty sure we will see many more 73Gs 77Ls and 787s ordered this year and maybe some 77Ws for 774 replacement.

Why 73Gs? What markets will those go on? Would a much larger carrier like NW/DL need such a small airframe, especially when they have so many A319s already? Wouldn't they want larger aircraft?

About the 777-300ER, when could they have them by?

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
DL will rework the NRT hub so they can use the 744s from LAX.

Why the 744s at LAX? Could they compete with United at LAX, who is already much larger? Where would the 744s go? You realize the 744s don't just stay in Tokyo now?

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
(i would guess sending more A333s to NRT along with 767s)

Where would the 76s and A330s fly to NRT from? What will they do with Delta's massive transatlantic network that's already very short on 767s if they're flying to Tokyo? Also, what about the existing NW transatlantic network if there are less A333s?

Where in the US would those planes rotate? NW/DL doesn't base A330s abroad technically, they rotate to SEA and SFO.

NS


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2951 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9919 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
Also i think the days of NRT-Asia with 744s will end and DL will rework the NRT hub so they can use the 744s from LAX.

Unless DL/NW completely retimes all the NRT flights, some intra-Asia runs will have to be 744 or whatever metal they send across the Pacific. Plus NRT-LAX is currently a 744.

Quoting FlyNTE (Reply 10):
2. The possibility of HND being opened up for transpacific service - this is currently under discussion as part of the U.S.-Japan bilateral negotiations.

Because of the NRT hub, it will be unlikely to shift the entire NRT operation to HND. There's just not enough slots for everyone to shift their int'l operation. This doesn't mean NW may not operate some flights from the US, but they will have to compete with everybody else for slots.
Foremost HND will be a domestic airport with a secondary international capability and due to time zone factors on transpac flights, flights will have to arrive in the afternoon which doesn't bode well for acquisition of many slots. Ideally, an early morning arrival would be the best as HND is dead for arrivals until around 0800 but that would mean leaving the US around midnight, which isn't timed very well for US airlines' hub operation.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9825 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Thread starter):
JFK-NRT is a no-brainer, hubs on both ends now should make it a winner and very competitive against AA and CO.

How many connecting cities would support a JKF-NRT flight?

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
They can add JFK because that slot is probably being unused at the moment

All the NWA slots at NRT are being used.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 9):
UA has SFO/LAX and i think DL will have LAX/NRT. Also i think the days of NRT-Asia with 744s will end and DL will rework the NRT hub so they can use the 744s from LAX. (i would guess sending more A333s to NRT along with 767s)

NWA already flies LAX-NRT with a 744.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):
wait wasn't HND closed? now they want to re-open it?

Suggest you do some research, HND is by far the largest airport in Japan.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 15):
NW's 5th freedom rights in Japan cannot be transferred to another carrier, thus it seems to me that Northwest will remain to operate these flights, unless some sort of agreement is made.



User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9726 times:



Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 15):
NW's 5th freedom rights in Japan cannot be transferred to another carrier, thus it seems to me that Northwest will remain to operate these flights, unless some sort of agreement is made.

NW's 5th freedom rights through NRT actually belong to the USA government by virtue of the USA-Japan bilateral. The USA named UA and NW as incumbent carriers in the appendix under the bilateral. The USA government has the rights to change the named incumbent carrier under the bilateral unilaterally.

Various versions of this urban legend of NW NRT rights non-transferrability keep cropping up on A.net.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9667 times:

All US air carrier rights belong to the US government. The US has made it clear that it does not allow US carriers to control or negotiate access to other countries or for foreign governments to block US carrier access that has been negotiated by the US government.

DL will undoubtedly rework NW's Pacific operation. NRT will remain strong but there are some markets that will make sense to fly nonstop from the US than via NRT. DL won't go as far as UA has gone but there is more value in overflying NRT and using smaller aircraft within Asia than in hubbing at NRT/


User currently offlineJetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2770 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9447 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Breaker1011 (Thread starter):
JFK-NRT is a no-brainer, hubs on both ends now should make it a winner and very competitive against AA and CO

If it's such a no brainer why did NW drop the flight? My stepfather flew on one of the last JFK-NRT flights and the flight attendants told him the route probably wouldn't start back up again and that it was unprofitable.

Quoting CV640 (Reply 5):
we've been told JFK-NRT is very likely when the 787s start coming on line.

I thought heard they were going to utilize those on other routes from the west coast and from the east coast to Europe.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9432 times:



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 2):
If SLC-CDG is going to test the limits on the 767, SLC-NRT would be downright impossible.

Why would SLC-CDG test the limits of the 763? Both American and United used to fly from the West Coast to CDG with 763, and didn't Balair fly ZRH-LAS-OAK-ZRH with theirs?


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3083 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9361 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 22):
Why would SLC-CDG test the limits of the 763? Both American and United used to fly from the West Coast to CDG with 763, and didn't Balair fly ZRH-LAS-OAK-ZRH with theirs?

Yes but SFO and LAX are not hot and high airports. SLC is.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 7533 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9273 times:



Quoting Breaker1011 (Thread starter):
If the slots belong to NW and DL buys NW, then they will be operated by DL.

Well maybe, but its not going to be bought, just a "trade in stock". No cash transaction.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 2):
To me the only logical additions would be JFK and BOS

JFK was supposed to be the first 787 route until NW got more Beijing rights.

Quoting CV640 (Reply 5):
Merger or no merger, we've been told JFK-NRT is very likely when the 787s start coming on line. I guess we will see. If there is a merger NRT will continue to be very important. Its a critical piece of NW.

Yep.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 15):
NW's 5th freedom rights in Japan cannot be transferred to another carrier, thus it seems to me that Northwest will remain to operate these flights, unless some sort of agreement is made.

This is what I have heard since NW has had these rights for years and years and years, but I heard that it has to do with more of Narita then the rights itself. Its all about money at that airport.

Delta name in Asia isn't very good with their "deportland" hub they once had. Even Delta employees are not so sure that its going to remain Delta, as far as the name goes, they would be smart not to get rid of the Northwest name.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
25 RwSEA : But from where? The combined DL/NW would still not have a decent west coast hub to funnel traffic through. ATL simply won't cut it, and DTW won't eit
26 WorldTraveler : hello. LAX. There is no dominant US carrier there and 2 flights to Asia by UA hardly constitutes a hub. And yes the Asian carriers do have low costs
27 DLPMMM : More of the urban legend. It is not possible for NWA to sell it's NRT slots, but there is no problem in the surviving carrier of a merger involving N
28 RwSEA : DL's expansion at LAX thus far has been a failure, and LAX is out of the way for pretty much any connection. Not to mention the fact that every singl
29 Breaker1011 : What Worldtraveler said is my thought too. DL will have a hub on both ends, NWA did not. Thus, I think it's a no-brainer!
30 Surfpunk : Because DL has a hub at JFK, and would inherit the hub at NRT, I could see JFK-NRT service resume almost immediately, with a 744 (DL's feed at JFK cou
31 BOStonsox : BOS is also a no-brainer. It is the largest market without non-stop service to Asia. AA had planned to fly BOS-NRT before 9/11 but then the air travel
32 MAH4546 : Just to note, the exact start date was spring 1999, but a significant slow-down in trouble, combined with horrendous advance bookings, canceled the f
33 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : DL has 10 orders and 10 options and Anderson(?) said they would order more this spring(along with 77Ls) UAL has NRT(which NWA flys with a 744) SYD an
34 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : thats why DL has T5 all to them self's and its wide open LAX from DL's T5 well if DL changes some of there 20 77L options then could be 2010 but at l
35 RwSEA : Well, I would consider those to be a decent operation (also need to include LHR and FRA, of course). In terms of Domestic feed UA is much larger, and
36 DeltaL1011man : all of which i understand. Don't get me wrong UA has a large hub at LAX. I'm pretty sure DL will never come close. DL will go after O&D with some dom
37 RwSEA : Does the facility have space for multiple widebodies as well as the domestic feeder service, all in one big bank? But wouldn't DL want to maximize yi
38 DeltaL1011man : they have 3(four but the gate next to it can't be used) WB gates and the rest are NBs. DL could make it work. when i say keep prices low i mean keep
39 WorldTraveler : no.... DL's LAX expansion served the purpose of retaining LAX gates and it has done that. And just because the service was pulled back doesn't mean i
40 B752OS : I agree, BOS would be one of the logical additions, thanks to a 787 that could fly the route with a full passenger and cargo load. I don't know about
41 Bobnwa : all NWA slots are being used. What cities would logically feed a JFK-NRT flight at the JFK end without backtracking and without a better schedule via
42 Sxf24 : NW's slot portfolio presents plenty of opportunity for new flights; some destinations could be shifted to a partner and/or overflown and I think ther
43 WorldTraveler : and we know that any company can reassign slots as appropriate to generate the most amount of revenue. DL/NW could rework the transpac schedule to fu
44 Bobnwa : Good explanation, but you still haven't given me a list of cities that would connect to a JFK-NRT light that would be competitive with DTW-NRT, ORD-N
45 Azjubilee : I really don't think the NRT hub would change all that much. Everyone seems to forget that NWA carries MANY MANY MANY Japanese to and from states ever
46 WorldTraveler : NW is absolutely huge to/from Japan and DL isn't about to mess with that. However, I'll remind you that NW's Pacific profitability has trailed UA's f
47 Azjubilee : My comment regarding Perfection was aimed at illustrating that NWA didn't get to the 60 years + mark in Asia by having their head in the sand. NWA pio
48 CV880 : What DL needs to decide b4 an attempted merger/w NW is the cost of operation of the NRT Hub vs the cost of nonstop Asian service from a hub city, suc
49 Bobnwa : Are you saying that the DL757's have longer range than the NW 757's which they are currently flying out of NRT? I don't think so. Where did you get t
50 Breaker1011 : Bob, after WT's well stated reply, if you are still looking for cities with logical connections at JFK - BOS, PWM, BDL, DCA, PHL, ALB, ROC, RIC, RDU,
51 Jetlanta : DL/NW would use every single slot that they do today. Nothing will get dismantled. But over time, you will see more of those slots used for TransPac
52 CV880 : As more nonstop Asian route authorities are awarded to or acquired by DL, the fewer slots at NRT would be needed. You say look at the FRA hub? Very f
53 MarkATL : When Delta withdrew from the Pacific did they sell or lease their NRT slots to FedEx.....I've heard both?
54 Carpethead : Sorry, after back tracking NAA's data they to indeed operate all 310 pax slots assigned prior to NRT-JFK being dropped. I am curious to know where th
55 WorldTraveler : no, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying NW is not even using the 757 to its full range from NRT. Whose 757 is used is not the point. The point is
56 Sxf24 : Um, a HUGE reason NW has a long and successful in Asia is because it is an extremely protected market with high barriers to entry. PDX was added afte
57 Hjulicher : Connecting in JFK makes no sense. JFK doesn't have the proper facilities to connect passengers, and in no way is it more convenient than DTW, which c
58 CV880 : Just wondering how much of their current intra-Asian traffic is just that or connecting from the USA? And why would the locals choose to fly NW over
59 Post contains images Ocracoke : Many. We can start with Brooklyn, Bronx, Manhattan, Queens, and Statan Island, and then work up and down the coast from there If CO had that same att
60 JohnClipper : Because NW is cheap. NW and UA offer cheap fares to lure tour operators for intra-Asian travel. I've taken many flights NRT-TPE/NRT-HKG and KIX-SEL t
61 Bobnwa : First of all the enroute schedules from BOS,PWM,BDL,DCA,PHL,ALB,ROC,RIC,RDU, and Florida area all faster via DTW or MSP. NWA already has excellent co
62 B752OS : NW consistently is either #1 or #2 (behind UA) for carrying the most BOS-Asia pax, that makes sense considering both carriers have the largest Asian
63 WorldTraveler : NW doesn’t have to report DOT statistics for its intra-Asian operations but they do for the US originating passengers. Based on 3Q07, NW carried abo
64 Viscount724 : And the 4th busiest in the world in passengers handled, after ATL, ORD, LHR. HND traffic will no doubt increase further when the 4th runway now under
65 Panamair : The point is that DL-NW can make traffic from BOS or PWM or BDL or DCA, etc., flow through JFK to NRT instead of say ATL or DTW, etc. if it wants con
66 Post contains images CV880 : Thnks for the stats, WT.
67 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I think that we will see SLC-AMS and SLC-LHR/LGW before we see NRT. SLC-NRT can easily be routed thru SEA, PDX, LAX or SFO if DL/NW merge i dont see
68 DeltaL1011man : DL stilll has a LGW slot i do think this will go to SLC
69 BOStonsox : I would be very surprised if there wasn't as much demand for JFK-NRT as there is JFK-LHR. New York, London, and Tokyo (as well as Paris, which is some
70 Lhpdx : I wonder what's going to happen to PDX-Narita and PDX-AMS after the merger?
71 Bobnwa : I don't believe LGW is slot controlled. Why would anything happen to them?
72 Sxf24 : It is.
73 ANstar : What about some Tokyo-Australia routes now that the US/AU have signed open skies
74 Azjubilee : Is Tokyo in the US? AFAIK, the US/OZ open skies covers flights between the US and Austrailia. AZJ
75 CV880 : It also covers US/OZ carriers and 3rd countries as in SYD-SFO-YVR
76 DLPMMM : It also covers 5th freedom rights such as NW flying NRT-SYD, which I expect will begin in short order after each government (OZ and US) ratifies the
77 DeltaL1011man : agreed I bet we will see NRT-SYD and MEL
78 CV880 : Which UA also has.
79 Viscount724 : That's a generally low yield route with mainly Japanese tourist traffic. I would think NW could find many much more lucrative routes with strong busi
80 DLPMMM : Nah, think about it. All those businessmen that regularly travel on Skyteam connecting in NRT from ATL, DTW, MSP, LAX, JFK (soon again), EWR, IAH, SE
81 DeltaL1011man : UA already has LAX-SYD-MEL and SFO-SYD-MEL so there is no need to go via NRT.
82 JoFMO : The fly SFO-SYD and LAX-SYD-MEL. You have easy tranfer between these two flights in SYD.
83 DeltaL1011man : Sorry, I thought the SFO went to MEL also. My bad.
84 Viscount724 : Filling them and operating profitably aren't the same thing. I have trouble believing that there are many SkyTeam supporters are loyal enough to want
85 Bobnwa : NWA very successfully flew US-OSA-SYD for quite a while and made money. The the Aussies made them stop because the were carrying to many Japanese on
86 Centrair : Slots: In Japan, DL still has two unsused rights to Japan; NGO and FUK. DL used to run JFK-NRT but the slot was "sub-leased" from incumbant FedEX. Upo
87 DeltaL1011man : I think we will see LAX-NGO,FUK,HKG,SIN,SYD,MEL as soon as they can get the rights and or the a/c. Isn't there a way to go to a web site to see what
88 RwSEA : DL already has rights and A/C to start LAX-NGO and LAX-FUK.
89 DeltaL1011man : What a/c can fly it? all the T7s are used up and I didn't think the 763 had the legs to do it without leaving some Cargo behind.
90 Viscount724 : I expect that would still be a problem now. A 5th freedom operation is normally expected to be a by-product of the 3rd/4th freedom service to/from th
91 CV880 : If DL merges w/NW, the 744's could be used for T7's until the additional ones arrive. All of the routes that You have referred to are there for the t
92 WorldTraveler : The 763ER w/ winglets is fully capable of flying LAX-central Japan year around. Cargo almost exclusively flies from Japan so it doesn't matter about
93 Centrair : I can't remember where I found it but it was somewhere in the DOT documents. They list what airlines have what rights in which countries.
94 Centrair : I posted another thread and got the info from United1. " target=_blank>http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/int...s.htm These are as of November 2006. De
95 DeltaL1011man : Does that mean DL can start any of those flights? they have rights to: SIN.....anywhere TPE.....anywhere NRT.....ATL,LAX,JFK,HNL KIX.......PDX FUK...
96 MAH4546 : There is nothing really stopping them (or anybody else) today. Route authorities are worth pretty much nothing these days. Europe goes Open Skies nex
97 Centrair : Exactly much of those are open-skies agreements. US-Japan is still allocated by the DOT and gets some input from the Japan MoLIT. The other locations
98 DeltaL1011man : ok my next question it says NW has these rights: HNL-CAN LAX-CAN SEA-CAN ORD-CAN SFO-CAN ANC-CAN (cargo) HNL-PEK LAX-PEK SEA-PEK ORD-PEK SFO-PEK DTW-
99 MAH4546 : Not at all. They can't, except for DTW-PEK (which they current operate via NRT). They might have authority, but they don't have the frequencies.[Edit
100 DeltaL1011man : I think we will see ATL-HKG and maybe ATL-TPE to connect to CI's hub. ATL-SIN i don't think can happen(lack of range on the 77L). as for LAX i think
101 MAH4546 : Some countries are limited by authority and frequency. To fly to Brazil, for example, Continental Airlines has the authority to fly EWR-GIG, IAH-GRU,
102 DeltaL1011man : ok better question say NW/DL dropped NRT-PEK,CAN,PVG couldn't they start them from LAX,SEA,SFO,ORD,HNL?
103 MAH4546 : I know they could re-start them from Detroit, but I don't know about others.
104 WorldTraveler : Part of the problem w/ SQ's ULH SIN flights is the A345. The 777LR is a far more capable aircraft. I'm not expecting DL to start ATL-SIN but DL could
105 RwSEA : Again, DL has aircraft to fly at least LAX-ICN and LAX-KIX tomorrow if they wanted to. They're not. And regardless, why would DL compete on ICN for e
106 DeltaL1011man : right i get that but if they wanted to start LAX-PEK/PVG/CAN tomorrow but NRT would drop CAN,PEK,PVG flights on a 763 DL can't really compete they ne
107 RwSEA : Yes, and NW obviously feels that NRT-China is better than LAX/DTW/Anywhere else in the US - China. But if DELTA was the name of the new company, how
108 DeltaL1011man : Your joking. Have you been on a DL 777? Add the new lie-flats and DL takes KE any day of they week. If DL could put KE's code on LAX-ICN then I think
109 WorldTraveler : I too would like to know what China routes DL/NW could transfer from NRT. With DL and NW both starting PVG service in the next 14 months, I would bet
110 RwSEA : Definitely not joking. KE beats DL in the food, comfort, and service category as things stand today. DL's lie-flats haven't debuted yet but you're ki
111 DeltaL1011man : Lets see in Y on a DL 77E you get 33" pitch, AVOD, what i think is good food, and free booze with meals. I would hardly say they blow DL away. A litt
112 WorldTraveler : DL knows full well what they have to do to compete with the foreign carriers and are upgrading their product worldwide in order to compete with the be
113 Centrair : DL will probably keep things as they are at NRT but then add non-stops from other locations. I can see West Coast getting many non-stops while East Co
114 Bobnwa : That must be an opinion of yours, because it sure isn't fact. Northwest has been flying to Japan since well before you were born and knows what it is
115 Jetlanta : My friend, do you understand how a hub works? Flowing aircraft through NRT is EXACTLY what NW does. For example: NW 1 is routed LAX-NRT-HKG NW 5 is r
116 Bobnwa : I have never heard term "flowing through" until this thread. Yes, I very much know how a hub works, much more than you I believe. NWA has aircraft ba
117 WorldTraveler : then let me explain. as you and I know, NW redesigned its NRT hub several years ago (probably alot longer than that but our sense of time changes as
118 Post contains images Jetlanta : It's all good. I think it was just a misunderstanding. NW has a fantastic operation at NRT. The flow through the hub is exactly what makes it work. I
119 WorldTraveler : to expand... If nor no other reason, US airlines are hard-pressed to turn widebody aircraft in less than 2 hours on a scheduled basis between interco
120 Ocracoke : Compare the NW NRT hub to the hub DL used to have at FRA years ago. DL flight 40, L1011, would fly MCO-FRA, and then turn around and make up DL61, FR
121 Centrair : Very very true. NRT-ICN will go bye bye. This one is very evident simply by looking at how KE works and the DL/KE relationship being far tighter than
122 DeltaL1011man : I see NGO-LAX soon. Would make a great 787 route.
123 Post contains links and images Centrair : Here is a visual I made last year. Will need to be updated to reflect usage of A333s in place of the 742s and the HNL-KIX becoming an A333. Notice th
124 DeltaL1011man : Centrair......Could DL rework the NRT hub(like they did with FRA) to make it so that the 744s only fly NRT-USA. This would reduce the need for 744s i
125 CV880 : NW could probably do anything that they wanted out of NRT as they are only restricted as to slots. If they give up 744's on high volume routes like H
126 Commavia : Delta's management has demonstrated of late that they are not stupid, and are quite adept at navigating international-focused network planning. I thin
127 Breaker1011 : Commavia, as usual, I agree with you 100% and made similar statements early in the thread. But this does beg the question of the value of the NW merg
128 DeltaL1011man : i see NRT-PUS,SPN,MNL and GUM all staying but the rest SIN,BKK,HKG,PEK,PVG,CAN,ICN,TPE will all be moved and/or downgraded. If DL/NW move PEK/PVG to
129 Centrair : Exactly. If anything DL will do what it has done on the East Coast to Europe, Middle East and Africa. They will use smaller capacity to open up route
130 DeltaL1011man : DL has been hinting at ATL-HKG and has the rights for one USA-HKG flight but they lack the a/c right now. (yes we all know ATL-PVG isn't doing great
131 Gigneil : That is an awful lot of flights to HKG for an airline that currently only flies NRT-HKG. Are you sure NW presently has all these rights? If they do,
132 DeltaL1011man : yes look at rp.94 to see you have what rights. I'm pretty sure DTW and JFK have the O&D to drive a HKG flight. ATL will just pretty much started with
133 Breaker1011 : Wow, that's alot of service to HKG, going from 1 today via NRT to 5 intercontinental trips is a stretch at best. DL took a shot at LAX-HKG already an
134 Post contains images DeltaL1011man : O&D not U&D I can't edit for some reason
135 Centrair : And there you go... 2nd LAX-NRT flight done with a 767 going onward to HKG for MX. They would be rotated off the East Coast to domestic to LAX to Asi
136 DeltaL1011man : we will have to agree to disagree. DL will do ATL-HKG and will try for ATL-PEK again. Ask most DL employee's and they know that Glen wants to give AT
137 Gigneil : No, it doesn't. It is high to Japan, but Hong Kong is a very business oriented market that doesn't jive with SEA's market. HKG routes were primarily
138 DeltaL1011man : ah...ok thanks for clearing it up
139 Breaker1011 : Agreeing to disagree is cool, never a problem with that. Logic and $$$$ will win the day in either case. HKG is just not the boutique, underserved ma
140 DeltaL1011man : that we will do. My list for the 77Ls is this: ATL-HKG ATL-BOM ATL-JNB ATL-CPT JFK-JNB JFK-DEL ATL-DEL no in any ordered but thats the first 10-12 A/
141 MAH4546 : India is not "where the money's at". Yields are at record lows and compieition at all-time highs. There are now five daily New York-India non-stops,
142 Breaker1011 : That's fine - but I think you get my point and intention in the post.
143 RwSEA : Probably. SEA-NRT is short enough that it only needs one aircraft to make a daily turn. The ICN tag could be removed and free up an entire aircraft.
144 Ocracoke : MD-11's fault. DL was promised a plane that could go LAX-HKG non-stop, and MD didn't deliver. DL couldn't compete against CX flying nonstop when it h
145 MasseyBrown : These plans to take over the Pacific are fun to read; but, so far, the reality seems to be that DL isn't making much money doing this. In the big thir
146 Breaker1011 : I agree, the M11 was a piece of it, but remember Delta also dropped LAX-NRT and FUK at about the same time, on top of slowly cutting domestic LAX ser
147 RwSEA : True to a point. NW's SEA-HKG flights were always full, with very high load factors. However they didn't have the business market behind them and the
148 DeltaL1011man : they lost 2.4 mill in the low season of Europe travel. If it was 2.4 mill on both Europe and Latin America i wouldn't call that to bad. (again in the
149 Post contains images Ocracoke : I don't have a timetable from that era, but didn't LAX-HKG start around 1992? 93? When did DL get their MD-11? I know that the FUX and KIX route didn
150 CV880 : Some others on this and other threads seem to think otherwise.......from what I've seen, cases can be made for having it either way (LAX or NRT) or a
151 MasseyBrown : The 3rd quarter is the HIGH season for Europe and DL lost $600K. In the same period they lost $1.8 million on Latin routes, but that is the low seaso
152 Bobnwa : Delta does not fly to TLV,DXB, or BOM via the pacific and the revenue is not counted as pacific. The 3rd quarter is not low season to Europe.
153 WorldTraveler : While I would clearly like to see DL making alot more money on it's int'l systems, the final talley is what they make on their entire network. DL and
154 Post contains links DeltaL1011man : after reading this thread : Question About NWs NRT Hub (by DeltaL1011man Jan 28 2008 in Civil Aviation) NW has 310 PAX slots. Now I'm pretty sure this
155 Gigneil : 757s use slots. NS
156 DeltaL1011man : thanks Gigneil. next question would a 737 or A320 use slots?
157 MAH4546 : Yes, of course. All planes use slots. There are some slots that can only be used by smaller planes like the 757, and Northwest has some of those (fou
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