KarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2925 posts, RR: 9 Posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3120 times:
We now have several threads on the possible Northwest-Delta merger and the ramifications of it. There is focus on fleets, and the associated regional carriers, the future of the established hubs of both NW & DL, and general questions of the overall impact of said merger if it actually flies past the Department Of Justice.
Another vein has surfaced. It is union workers in a specific work group and non-union workers in the same work group. I specifically speak of the ground workers of these two airlines. At this time the IAM is raising concerns over this issue. I hope the ground workers of the two airlines in play here will chime in on their thoughts which might have been overlooked on this concern -- union and non-union.
The support story this brings this issue to light is:
TOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3219 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3009 times:
Union issues may be the killer for a DL/NW merger. I doubt DL will allow unions on the property in order to make the deal go through. When DL bought the atlantic division from PA, the unions didn't come with the employees they took (aside from ALPA).
DL1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 386 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2885 times:
Quoting Dl757md (Reply 3): Quoting NWAESC (Reply 1):
The ability to exercise my seniority to another location in the event of a layoff.
The ability to use my seniority to bid on open positions in other cities.
We have that ability as well at Delta.
The difference is that NWWAESC has his rules in a contract. Delta's "rules" are subject to change and interpretation. I watched as a Line MTC AMT friend was bumped from his station by an Inspection AMT from a different location. It was a sweet deal for the inspector and it shouldn't have happened. Management finally admitted the same after a couple of years but it was too late to correct.
How many times has delta changed the recall policy in the last few years? 2,3,4 or 5 times? What is today's recall policy? What will tomorrows recall policy be?
If I were a union employee of NW, I would be concerned. Once your union protection is gone, what you have been through over the last few years will look like the good old days. Managers that hate the union will be free to play games with their now, non-union employees. I know I sound like chicken little but I saw the aftermath of the Western-Delta merger and how some of the ex-WAL managers got some payback.
Of course they are they will lose alot of money if the NW employees are not paying dues.
By the way how much do they pay them?
Quoting NWAESC (Reply 1): 2 more weeks of vacation annually- NWA caps out at 6 weeks, and DL caps out at 4.
4 weeks are for the new hires plus 10 holidays or 6 weeks total. The older employees were grandfathered in and top out at 5 weeks + 10 holidays. So 7 weeks off total. The only question now is what will the NW employees be classified as, new hires or be grandfathered in. Hopefully the latter.
M404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2213 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2657 times:
Oh you can bet the NW union ground workers at the 40 stations left where they have not already been outsourced are very concerned as is their union. The question is what can they possibly do about it. ALPA has the tools. We don't. They have the threats. Management says they can replace use with burger flippers. We've seen those people and it's scary as well as frightening and terribly disheartening to think the company would settle for that false economy instead of care and skill of the long term worker. That's another argument and not the point here. The point of this is awareness of the current workers to the possibility that their career is at the mercy of corporate policies that reflect the new ownership by those only interested in the stock price rather than the performance and corporate camaraderie of the employees. It's been pounded into us over and over both on this web sight and the workplace that those times are over.
Some employees may resent the IAM or any union representation for any past perceived slight or even the union dues, which to a part timer seem over priced. Let me say that after 5 mergers I'm damn glad I had the union. They unfortunately have the job of defending the slouch against the company equally as much as the group against any unfair offense against a written rule. The point is that THEIR IS A WRITTEN RULE and that's what saves your butt from other less honorable employees as well as the ever changing managers that don't have a clue to how things work. Of course the unions want to survive for the income and so do the companies. The question is representation of whom. Greed on which side? Union members have to be active as well as able to understand the total market place. They have to know when to give and when to show solidarity. When to formulate a work policy that benefits the company before the company changes it for them.
Anderson of course has said he wants what's best for the company and the employee. How and which employees he's talking about is a totally different animal.
This is why we feel that it is imparative to try and enfluance DL people to organize. They however feel they are taking the chance in doing so possibly loosing their jobs. NW people on the other hand see that as what will probably happen anyway.
[Edited 2008-02-09 21:49:02]
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
NWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3324 posts, RR: 9 Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2595 times:
Quoting 77411 (Reply 6): Of course they are they will lose alot of money if the NW employees are not paying dues.
By the way how much do they pay them?
It varies based on your hourly rate, but a new hire generally pays ~29/mo., and a topped out full time employee pays ~41.00.
Quoting 77411 (Reply 6): 4 weeks are for the new hires plus 10 holidays or 6 weeks total. The older employees were grandfathered in and top out at 5 weeks + 10 holidays. So 7 weeks off total. The only question now is what will the NW employees be classified as, new hires or be grandfathered in. Hopefully the latter.
When you say "new hires," I assume you mean someone hired after a certain date as opposed to someone right of the street... What date did you have to be hired before to be Grandfathered in?
AT NWA, it's 6 weeks vac. and 7 holidays. We can also use up to 2 weeks worth of that (or 10 days) as individual days.
Here's how many weeks you get for each completed year of service.
BinMonster From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 215 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2497 times:
Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 2): Union issues may be the killer for a DL/NW merger. I doubt DL will allow unions on the property in order to make the deal go through. When DL bought the atlantic division from PA, the unions didn't come with the employees they took (aside from ALPA).
Lets hear from the ex- Western ground agents, they joined the non-union work groups of Delta. Also every attempt to vote in a union since has failed for ground agents and in-flight.
The job bid for ground agents are senoirty based.
Now if a station is closed or downsized, senoirty based for any open job. Not any station were you have senoirty. (so no bumping rights)
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2117 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2488 times:
I have seen in other mergers that the NLRB has required a vote when there is a mixed union/non-union group. Normally when that happens the non-union carrier starts handing out raises and other perks prior to the vote to influence the outcome in their favor. So if you hear DL trying to bring employees up to Industry Standard with raises and such next few weeks you know the lobbying has begun and the merger deal is done and there just could be a vote.
DL1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 386 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2410 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 13): Quoting DL1011 (Reply 4):
I know I sound like chicken little but I saw the aftermath of the Western-Delta merger and how some of the ex-WAL managers got some payback.
Did the Western employees the managers got even with, deserve it from your viewpoint?
Some deserved it but many did not. 2 instances pop to mind. 1 guy was fired for being a deadbeat. He basically did NOTHING except collect a paycheck and he got fired for it. That's fine except that there were plenty of other deadbeats there that didn't get fired because they were buddies with the boss. Another example that I remember was an older guy that got fired for damaging an a/c. It wasn't intentional but one of the managers hated this guy and out the door he went. This very manager screwed up a couple of years later and sent a pornographic email from a company computer but because he had buddies to protect him, he did not get fired. There were other cases where people did some serious damage but weren't fired. It all depended on who your buddies were.
I could type all day about this kind of stuff but I want some coffee.
No union, no protection unless you are part of the good ol boy network, then you can do nothing wrong.
Thanks for asking your question. I have been second guessing my decision to leave the airline (mostly because I'm missing the travel) and had started to forget some of the reasons for my departure. Remembering some of these stories makes me realize that I made the correct choice.
M404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2213 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2197 times:
It looks like another group of employees are worried too. Todays
ATW Internet reports that the DL Flight Attendants are looking
to unionize. This will be interesting to watch in how it effects
This is part of the story
The vast majority of NWA's employees are unionized while only DL's pilots are unionized among major work groups. But the Assn. of Flight Attendants-CWA said a majority of DL's 12,000 flight attendants have signed cards seeking union representation and will file those cards Thursday with the US National Mediation Board.
If the NMB verifies that at least 35% of DL's flight attendants have requested unionization, it can call a vote. More than 50% would have to cast ballots in favor for unionization to occur. Past efforts to unionize DL flight attendants have been unsuccessful
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
I have been told by other DL ground workers that this is not the case, and that they only option is to move into an open position somewhere on the system...
The term "open position" is the key. Everyone that fell below the 'we need to cut this many total positions line' was in an open position if their department was at or below compliment. Also anyone that volunteered to be furloughed was in an open positon if that department was at compliment. A senior guy displaced out of a department could bump out the guys on the list.
Burnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7411 posts, RR: 9 Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1973 times:
Ok here are my thoughts, I am pro-union.... AS LONG AS they don't abuse what they are there for, they are there to protect the jobs of employees.
I see more mainline stations coming back for NW/DL, which would be nice, for instance I know COS will become mainline again as DL already operates mainline employees there, NW cut them. That will be nice to deal with actual employees at some stations, COS isn't bad, the check-in staff at COS isn't very friendly for NW which outsources to worldwide. Also more maint would be done in house, since DL actually does a lot of work for other carriers, maybe we will get lucky and see the return of heavy maint to the cities and create more jobs and such. One thing i am concerned about is that DL doesn't seem to put much money themselves into their facilities at NW does, IE NW financed the WorldGateway, several projects at MSP, MEM, etc. Obviously the airlines would remain skyteam. I am wondering what would happen with UA and CO, as UA said they are willing to leave Star Alliance if they had too, should be interesting. Though I don't know that the DOJ would allow them to stay in Skyteam, but you never know, that would be a huge blow to Star as they would just have US Airways left and that doesn't offer them much. I guess only time will tell.
"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
DALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2365 posts, RR: 15 Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1948 times:
Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 17): One thing i am concerned about is that DL doesn't seem to put much money themselves into their facilities at NW does, IE NW financed the WorldGateway, several projects at MSP, MEM, etc
I think that has changed as of late. BOS was a big commitment for DL and JFK has been in the works for some time. I think now it is getting ready to go forward. DL has also invested a lot into ATL in the last year. Behind the scenes DL has invest a lot into technology.
As far as more maintenance in house, I'm not thinking anymore heavy work is going to come back in. Sure DL insourced something like $377m last year, but much of that work is engines and components. The airframe insource was relatively small. Most of it was either paint line or Letter Check. We outsource most of our heavy check work now. Only the 777 and 738 are inhouse.
Nwab787techops From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1909 times:
Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 18): As far as more maintenance in house, I'm not thinking anymore heavy work is going to come back in. Sure DL insourced something like $377m last year, but much of that work is engines and components. The airframe insource was relatively small. Most of it was either paint line or Letter Check. We outsource most of our heavy check work now. Only the 777 and 738 are inhouse.
As for maintenance NWA only has its own maintenance in DTW and MSP with only 600 to 700 Techs. Nwa pay is $23.64 ,license premiums $3.58, and No lead Techs.
All other maintenance is outsourced. Also,in DTW and MSP all A/C oiling is outsourced to people who are NON-licensed.
CV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 989 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1840 times:
Quoting BinMonster (Reply 11): Lets hear from the ex- Western ground agents, they joined the non-union work groups of Delta. Also every attempt to vote in a union since has failed for ground agents and in-flight.
Not ex-WA, but worked in SFO where the majority of the ground agts were WA. They basically got full everything with DL after either 3 or 5 yrs and eventually as much as 7wks vacation until management trimmed it back to 6, then 5. Whatever pensions they had accrued with WA/Unions were retained and their DL pensions accrued from date of merger (1987). The value of some of the WA pensions were small at that time, but that was a WA issue, not DL. Those that are still employed have a 20yr Delta Pension plus whatever they had accrued from WA. From what I remember, those with Teamster Pensions did fairly well compared with others. The ramp in SFO was outsourced around 2006 and the more senior ones transferred to the ticket counter or retired, and others either transferred out to open stations or quit. As NW Ramp still is alive in SFO, hopefully that would be retained. The more important issue for current workers is the pension, and second are issues related to bumping rights when stations and/or departments are closed or outsourced. There have been times at DL when the management of the day seemed to "make" new rules on these issues. One of the big jokes were the "required" typing proficiency tests required when moving from ramp to ticket counter/ air cargo, when we all knew full well that many on the ticket counter could not pass the test to save their lives, but were "grandfathered" in. I would not be surprised to see ground unions at Delta at some time in the future due to inconsistencies in the past.
I agree with DALMD88 that very little HMV would return, however, I would think that it makes fiscal sense to drop the vendors at cities where DAL AMT's are already in place doing line maintenance (BOS, eg.).
Quoting Nwab787techops (Reply 19): All other maintenance is outsourced. Also,in DTW and MSP all A/C oiling is outsourced to people who are NON-licensed.
That might explain why so many A320's come into my city with low APU oil?
Anyway, who's doing it?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5974 posts, RR: 9 Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1636 times:
Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 20): So, another still-born airline merger. This was, after all, 'the week it was supposed to be announced.'
If this NW-DL thing falls apart, no major airline merger will happen. The companies are too myopic, too insular, too inflexible.
Chris, there is absolutely no hint that the talks are falling apart. No one at DL or NW ever gave a timetable. All speculation about announcements is A. net gossip and should be ignored, even from those on here who claim to have inside info.
25 Burnsie28: You forgot Seattle where NW still has a hanger and does maint. Especially on the A330's. All they are waiting for is Union things to get worked out.
26 MrLurker: For the AMT's at DL's TechOps there is a Conflict Resolution Process that copies the same protections typically offered by a union. Management someti
27 DALMD88: NW also has a hangar in BOS. They pull two 757 in every night. They are contractors from Swissport. I bet SEA is contract also. I heard the total NWA
28 Connector4you: On what legal grounds could the newly merged DL/NW terminate employment to its unionized workers? I understand that management would love to cut as m
29 NWAESC: Absolutely correct. Monetarily, not so much. The huge difference is in things like vacation accrual, medical costs, etc. NWA employees are much bette
30 YULWinterSkies: I can see that current NW employees could keep everything as they have now for a while until merger is well digested and tougher negociations start, a
31 DL1011: I based my comment on the Western/Delta merger. Union Western employee's became non-union Delta employee's. My guess is that the same will happen if
32 DALMD88: Tech Ops at DL has shrunk from roughly 7500 AMTs to around 3400 AMTs. As of the last year there have been a fair amount of recalls, but that has all
33 DL1011: I actually know 1 of your co-workers and he has told me all about some of the issues and staffing problems in BOS. It sounds kind of bad there, worse