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NWA-Delta Seek Common Pilot Contract Before Merger  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3094 posts, RR: 10
Posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5727 times:

Well I didn't think they would be smart enough to do this but they well may prove me wrong. There have been enough mergers with big-time labor issues after the merger that maybe finally someone decided that working on this first might be a good idea. As you can tell I sometimes think management leaves common-sense in the parking lot. I seriously hope that the pilots of both airlines can get what they want right from the start and tied to that I hope the pilots can find out what the ingredients of said contract are in advance.

Here is the writeup from the Wall Street Journal. If you have a subscription to WSJ you can get more than I did. Pilots of Northwest and Delta tell us what you want in this contract which may or may not include RJ Pilot issues.

Courtesy: Wall Street Journal

Delta, Northwest Focus On Joint Pilot Contract

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1202...7355813.html?mod=yahoo_hs&ru=yahoo

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5696 times:

Good move. Sensing how badly mgmt wants this, employee gropus can cash in.

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6444 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5619 times:

I'm afraid that the DL and NW ALPA's will go to war before either of them will sacrifice one position in a merged seniority list. If I were DL/NW management, I would stay removed from the seniority battle and let ALPA settle it. Then that was settled, i would then discuss a new contract with the combined ALPA. The ALPA unions at HP and US have never settled their seniority battles. This is a first, for two large pilot groups of two financial successful airlines (lately) trying to combine. It would be interesting to listen in on the meetings. DL/NW management could really not care less what the resolution is. They would just like a unified body to deal with.

User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4742 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5556 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 2):
I'm afraid that the DL and NW ALPA's will go to war before either of them will sacrifice one position in a merged seniority list. If I were DL/NW management, I would stay removed from the seniority battle and let ALPA settle it. Then that was settled, i would then discuss a new contract with the combined ALPA. The ALPA unions at HP and US have never settled their seniority battles. This is a first, for two large pilot groups of two financial successful airlines (lately) trying to combine. It would be interesting to listen in on the meetings. DL/NW management could really not care less what the resolution is. They would just like a unified body to deal with.

I disagree that they will go to war. In fact, there is a method to DL's madness in all of this - specifically the reasons they're looking to sign/seal/deliver a unified contract before any merger announcement.

DL realizes that workforce integration and management of employee morale is pivotal to making any merger successful.

Look for things to be reshaped and as always...

Welcome change. Welcome to the new DELTA.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5540 times:



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 3):
Welcome change. Welcome to the new DELTA.

the fact that all of the parties stand to gain from a merger - there will undoubtedly be pay raises for jsut about everyone - certainly makes it more likely employees will go along. These pay raises might have come otherwise but they are definitely tied to supporting this merger now.

Quite a contrast to the US/HP merger where cuts and job cuts were what employees were given in order to support the merger.


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5446 times:



Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
seriously hope that the pilots of both airlines can get what they want right from the start and tied to that I hope the pilots can find out what the ingredients of said contract are in advance.

Doubtful that they will get what they want. What they want is to have their pay and work rules restored to pre-9/11 days. But surely the NW guys will be incented as they will get a good little boost if they come up to the same standards set forth in DL's contract. It will be intereting on how NW ALPA handles it as they have the bluebook guys, the original NW guys, and then the DL guys. Sure makes for a seniority nightmare!



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

I was undet the impression that after the HP/US merer that ALPA adopeted a straight date of hire policy for all mergers. Further both NW and DL both have pilots spread over all age groups.

In the case of US the only active pilots were very senior. In fact I beleive that they are considered the most senior group of any union pilots in America.

Contrast this with HP which has only been in business since 1984 and you have a recipe for disaster.

I hope that the unions do not start acting like AA pilots and demand pay higher than 1990 pay rates adjusted for infaltion with some huge margin added.

Welcome to deregulated pay.

Personally I am waiting to see what happens at WN. Could all the spreading the love stuff fly out the window?


User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5235 times:

This is an interesting developement.

On the surface the fact that they are engaging both pilot unions now is smart. It's my guess that they will have a new 3 year deal going into the merger that gives the pilots a small wage increase, equity in the new company and a greater percentage of profit sharing. This will give them a couple years of stability while they integrate the airlines. Of course the big question is execution.... can they pull it off?

Under the surface I think this means they want to merge the operating certificates A.S.A.P. and means they probably will not do an AF/KLM style merger but probaly operate under just one name.


User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4997 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 6):
I was undet the impression that after the HP/US merer that ALPA adopeted a straight date of hire policy for all mergers. Further both NW and DL both have pilots spread over all age groups.

ALPA merger policy is unchanged and it does not mention DOH as a factor.


User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4872 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 6):
I was undet the impression that after the HP/US merer that ALPA adopeted a straight date of hire policy for all mergers. Further both NW and DL both have pilots spread over all age groups.

In the case of US the only active pilots were very senior. In fact I beleive that they are considered the most senior group of any union pilots in America.

US also had furloughed pilots that had earlier DOH than HP pilots, which made it difficult to integrate the two work groups.

Neither DL or NW have any furloughed pilots and have their DOH distribution is similar, making integration significantly easier.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12888 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4821 times:
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Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 6):
I was undet the impression that after the HP/US merer that ALPA adopeted a straight date of hire policy for all mergers. Further both NW and DL both have pilots spread over all age groups.

Will it be straightforward enough that no Captain gets demoted from either airline? Is the date of hire patter similar enough for the two airlines?

Smart for DL/NW to pre-negotiate.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

I posted this yesterday.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3836712/

Linked to the same article.

The best news in this article is that in the new DL/NW merge Steenland will NOT be in Management but may remain on the board.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4759 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 11):
The best news in this article is that in the new DL/NW merge Steenland will NOT be in Management but may remain on the board.

On the board he can be muzzled by the will of the other board members.


User currently offlineDLOnur From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 290 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4735 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
the fact that all of the parties stand to gain from a merger - there will undoubtedly be pay raises for jsut about everyone - certainly makes it more likely employees will go along. These pay raises might have come otherwise but they are definitely tied to supporting this merger now.

This is correct, to a certain degree.

To disclaim first: I've thought all along that a merger with NW was in fact in the books for maybe over a year, if not more--maybe up to 18 months previous. That said...

Anderson--in his this past Friday's weekly "fireside chat" with employees--said that there will be an announcement in early March about pay raises for all work groups to bring DL closer to "industry standard." This was a part of the "emergence" guarantee that was presented by management to employees in May of 2007. This is not new, per se, but would go along with your theory that happy employees will make good merger employees.

Pay raises will probably be applied like they were last year--in July.

But I do agree that the raises are definitely tied to the up-coming merger announcement.

Cheers.
-o-



What you believe is what you see.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4665 times:

Vey interesting development! Although I would have to disagree wtih the notion that management should stay out. Let ALPA handle it? They will really be asking for a punch in the gut if they take the side-lines approach. Trying to hash out something after the fact I think will only make things worse. And to say that they don't care what resolution they come to is pretty crazy to me. A long labor battle could make or break the combined airline and they DO care what happens. Good for them to try to bring both parties together on such an early notice.

Still think this deal has been LONG in the making...



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6444 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4479 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 6):
I was undet the impression that after the HP/US merer that ALPA adopeted a straight date of hire policy for all mergers. Further both NW and DL both have pilots spread over all age groups.

Yes ALPA did agree on a seniority agreement, then the pilots at US refused to go along with it. This was after they had agreed to go along with what ALPA proposed.
If ALPA has power over the local ALPA's then the agreement is already in place, and there is no need for NW ALPA and DL ALPA to negotiate. But we all know that isn't about to happen.


User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3819 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
If ALPA has power over the local ALPA's then the agreement is already in place, and there is no need for NW ALPA and DL ALPA to negotiate. But we all know that isn't about to happen.

ALPA does not decide the seniority integration. ALPA has a process. The first part of the process is for the two MECs to negotiate to see if they can come to an agreement on the new list. If they cannot, it goes to binding arbitration. This is what happened at USAirways.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6444 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3386 times:



Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 16):
ALPA does not decide the seniority integration. ALPA has a process. The first part of the process is for the two MECs to negotiate to see if they can come to an agreement on the new list. If they cannot, it goes to binding arbitration. This is what happened at USAirways.

Agreed, but the binding arbitration that upon both HP/US ALPA's agreed to abide by, was turned down by US ALPA because they did not like the result. So much for binding.


User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3217 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 17):
the binding arbitration that upon both HP/US ALPA's agreed to abide by, was turned down by US ALPA because they did not like the result. So much for binding.

Yes, big problems going on there. But I really don't see anything overturning the arbitrators award. Now, having said that, I think the AWA pilots may agree to some small changes (fences) because as long as the USAir pilots are fighting this thing there will be no new contract and both sides are locked into their current piss poor contract.


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2889 times:



Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
As you can tell I sometimes think management leaves common-sense in the parking lot.

If you think common sense is left in the parking lot by management, just wait until two ALPA MECs get together to merge seniority lists. Remember, this is two sets of politicians trying to outdo each other. They make junior high school kids look like adults.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineLike2flyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2700 times:

There have been numerous media reports saying that a merger announcement could be made this week. However, because it appears that the pilots at both airlines have become involved in the merger talks (and such as this thread is based), I would be surprised if anything is agreed upon (or announced) this week. If this merger happens, I'm hoping something will be announced soon. Living in limbo is frustrating!

In fairness to pilots (and to all employees), even though many of us are waiting anxiously, I hope they do take the time needed to establish a fair agreement between the two work groups and not rush into anything that would be regretted later. It sounds like they are on the right track so far. I have to say I am impressed with the pilot groups on both sides of the fence. The professionalism shown by both groups goes a long way in better positioning ourselves for a successful (and hopefully fair) merger. I'm proud that everyone has stepped up to the plate, so to speak, and is willing to work together for a positive outcome. Let's hope that it remains positive!


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3094 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

I just got an E-Mail from the aviation reporter from KSTP-TV the ABC affiliate in St. Paul, MN. He says, "I understand the Union has the "proposal" in their hands."

He heads most of the stories regarding Northwest. He posted a writeup in his blog. This is it:
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S323213.shtml?cat=10014

This was in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune:

NWA Pilots Won't Be Rushed Into Merger Deal

http://www.startribune.com/business/15488291.html

[Edited 2008-02-11 12:58:21]

User currently offlineCv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

There will be a lot of talks is this goes forth. A lot of issues on both sides to resolve. Delta has better pay rates, the work rules are about a wash with Delta better in some areas and NW better in some others. There are also new laws about mergers that was put in with the age 65 to prevent what happened at AA/TWA and limit the damage from USAirways and America West. I'm not sure how exactly that would apply, these will be some interesting times.

In the end they don't need the employees to sign off, but then you get what's happening at USAirways, something I'm sure management has no desire to see here.


User currently offlineBreaker1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 938 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2243 times:



Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 21):
I just got an E-Mail from the aviation reporter from KSTP-TV the ABC affiliate in St. Paul, MN. He says, "I understand the Union has the "proposal" in their hands."

He heads most of the stories regarding Northwest. He posted a writeup in his blog. This is it:
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S323...10014

Am I missing something or does this story say nothing at all pertinent to this topic?



Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid. J. Wayne
User currently offlineCF6PPE From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2194 times:

Are the former Southern Airways pilots at NW still fenced to certain DC-9s or are their any of the former Southern Airways pilots still on the roster...??

Hopefully, someone in the know can comment...!!


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