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Garuda To Sign For 10 777's  
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10274 times:

Apparantly, at the Singapore airshow Garuda will sign for 10 777's to be delivered in 2010. These will first be leased and later bought. They will be used for routes to for example Amsterdam (confirmation I guess that Garuda will return to AMS) and Frankfurt.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...7/garuda-to-sign-for-ten-777s.html

The deal seems a bit odd, first leasing than later buying the aircraft. Does this happen often? I know carriers often buy the frames and then sign a sale and lease back agreement with a leasing company.

Anyway, good to see Garuda returning to AMS, even if it will take a few years. Any guesses if it will be 772's or 77W's? Or a combination? GA still have 6 772's on order with Boeing, but I assume Boeing will have no objection if GA changes those to 77W's.


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9964 times:

Wow, this is great news for Garuda and Boeing! My guess would be 772ERs, but I suppose anything is possible.

What is the status of Garuda's 787 order? Is it firm or still yet to be confirmed? Might we see a 10 787 + 10 777 order at Singapore??

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9890 times:

I wouldnt count out 77Ls - 77Es may struggle year round at max payload, particularly Westbound to AMS or LGW, but 77Ls wouldnt at all. 77W probably too big.


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9871 times:



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
77Es may struggle year round at max payload

Didn't think of that...you're right! the 77L would probably be best!

And I agree that...

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
77W probably too big

No word on the 787s?

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9778 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 3):
No word on the 787s?

No idea mate but would be an ideal plane for them.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9705 times:

Isn't all this Garuda coming on and off with announcing orders only to keep Garuda in the news and being the cheepest way to keep a "modern airline look"

I'm sorry, but I developed some kind of skepticism with their orders...

However I would love to see an order for 77Ls and be meeting them at AMS Big grin



Peet7G
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9680 times:



Quoting PEET7G (Reply 5):
Isn't all this Garuda coming on and off with announcing orders only to keep Garuda in the news and being the cheepest way to keep a "modern airline look"

I'm sorry, but I developed some kind of skepticism with their orders...

However I would love to see an order for 77Ls and be meeting them at AMS

I wonder if we may not see them back at LHR/LGW as well - they used to do LGW-BKK-CGK with a beautiful looking 744 and a non-stop LGW-BKK route would do well - we dont have a direct link to Indonesia at the moment so most of if not all the UK-Indonesia travel goes via KL/AMS or via CX/SQ through their hubs. I still think they would do ok, although it was yields or lack of them that killed their UK service last time.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9525 times:

Poor old Garuda do seem to have slipped off the map recently. I used to love working with them at LGW. No one had a bad word to say about them.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 5):
Isn't all this Garuda coming on and off with announcing orders only to keep Garuda in the news and being the cheapest way to keep a "modern airline look"

Hate to sound too sceptical, but I tend to believe this too. There will be no great yields on their euro routes for a time as they struggle to regain their market share. Good luck to them though!  Cool


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31444 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9375 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

If Garuda needs to re-build traffic, then starting with a lease might be the logical way to go since the initial capital expenditures will be lower. Then once they have the traffic, they can buy the planes and get a better price over the life of the frame (decades) as opposed to paying monthly leases.

User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9336 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 7):
Hate to sound too sceptical, but I tend to believe this too. There will be no great yields on their euro routes for a time as they struggle to regain their market share. Good luck to them though!

I am skeptical about all orders from Indonesia.  yes 



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineGeorgiabill From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9263 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Congrats to both Garuda and Boeing. I wonder if this means returning LAX is possible?

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9217 times:



Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 10):
Congrats to both Garuda and Boeing. I wonder if this means returning LAX is possible?

IF this order goes ahead and they do take the 77L, then I would say LAX is easily reachable with no problems. Whether they would want to is another question. What higher yield pax there are may prefer to go via SIN with SQ and ULH routes with low yields can be a bit sticky as we know.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9217 times:



Quoting AA1818 (Reply 1):
What is the status of Garuda's 787 order?

Garuda's 787s was removed from Boeings order book last year as the LoI never got firmed up.
It was reported in Hamlet69s 2007 orderthread IIRC.

Was also talk about GA to order A320s last year.
Lets see what happens at Singapore Airshow.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9100 times:

I wonder if GA would ever have a need for 10 77Ls. That seems a bit overkill to me (range-wise). Maybe a mix of 77E/77L/77W. They could use the 77E on 5000nm routes, the 77L on 6000+nm routes (carrying a hell of a payload), and 77W for the higher density routes to the North American west coast and higher density Europe routes. I just feel a mix of the three 777s would offer more flexibility. Where is GA's headquarters by the way?


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8934 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 13):
Where is GA's headquarters by the way?

Jakarta, to be precise:

Garuda Indonesia Bldg.,
Jalan Merdeka Selatan No. 13
Jakarta, 10110,
Indonesia

Will be interesting to see what devlops from this news, baring in mind the previous attempt for 787s.

Rob!  wave 


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8877 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 13):
I wonder if GA would ever have a need for 10 77Ls. That seems a bit overkill to me (range-wise). Maybe a mix of 77E/77L/77W. They could use the 77E on 5000nm routes, the 77L on 6000+nm routes (carrying a hell of a payload), and 77W for the higher density routes to the North American west coast and higher density Europe routes. I just feel a mix of the three 777s would offer more flexibility. Where is GA's headquarters by the way?

Depends if they want to go to AMS or LGW non-stop or not.

The 772ER would be ok for much of the year but may be a bit payload restricted for a couple of months a year going westbound which would be 14+ hours with headwinds. My guess would be that the flights would be very cargo heavy and the 77L makes sense as it would allow them to carry a lot more cargo.

Mind you CGK is only about 10m above sea level and has two very long runways so I dont think hot n' high performance would be a problem. Can the 77E do LAX non-stop if they wanted to?

I dont see that they need to replace their 744s with 77Ws really as the 772ER is probably about as large as they really need. Depends what they want to do with them really I guess.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8631 times:



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 15):
Can the 77E do LAX non-stop if they wanted to?


Sure with no cargo  wink  I didn't realize that CGK-LAX was over 7800nm (according to Great Circle Mapper). That is route that could be done with the 77L all year nonstop. I'm not quite sure how GA's load factors are now, but I think that the 77W would be a pefrect replacement for their 744's. If there isn't the need for an aircraft that size, then you're right, stick with the 77L/77E



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8421 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 16):
Sure with no cargo I didn't realize that CGK-LAX was over 7800nm (according to Great Circle Mapper). That is route that could be done with the 77L all year nonstop. I'm not quite sure how GA's load factors are now, but I think that the 77W would be a pefrect replacement for their 744's. If there isn't the need for an aircraft that size, then you're right, stick with the 77L/77E

I'd love to see a GA 77L though - lovely livery and a frackin' beautiful plane. I think 6 77Es and 4 77Ls (GE90-92b-110b powered respectively) could work lovely for them. Are they getting rid of all their A333s as well? I though four were going to IB? Looks like they are looking to centre around the 772 as their long-haul airframe of choice.

The GC mapper says CGK-SYD is 3,428 miles so their A333s wont have a problem doing it year round. They dont serve AKL at the moment but AKL is probably at the upper limits of the range of their A333s I would think. 772ER probably more suitable if they want to fly to NZ again.

I note the EU still has a ban on GA to serve EU airports - wonder if this proposed new order has anything to do with this?

Wiki says they are planning or starting AMS back up once the EU Ban is lifted.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2296 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8420 times:

A lot of airlines are finding the extra lift of the 77L to be really advantageous and aren't flying it to its full range capabilities. I think the ecomonics of a full plane is proving to be quite attractive.

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8322 times:



Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 18):
A lot of airlines are finding the extra lift of the 77L to be really advantageous and aren't flying it to its full range capabilities. I think the ecomonics of a full plane is proving to be quite attractive.

You are correct -

EK - DXB-IAH/GRU (pretty damn long)
AC - YVR - SYD/HKG
AI - DEL-JFK
PK KHI-MAN-IAD/JFK

Of those you could only really say EK are pushing her - the rest of the routes could be done with 77E/77W thats already in the fleet.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2754 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8206 times:



Quoting Kappel (Thread starter):
Or a combination? GA still have 6 772's on order with Boeing, but I assume Boeing will have no objection if GA changes those to 77W's.

I don't have any inside info on this one, but assuming it actually goes through, my personal feeling is that we will see the x6 777-200ER order get converted to a mix of 777-200LR/777-300ER, 6/4 respectively. Once again, just my gut feeling.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 1):
What is the status of Garuda's 787 order? Is it firm or still yet to be confirmed?

Dead. GA let the LOI expire without ever firming it up.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 1):
Might we see a 10 787 + 10 777 order at Singapore??

Does not sound like the 787 will get revived here, especially as that deal involved converting their 777-200ER order into x10 787's. Now it looks like they will stick with the 777 (see above). OTOH, we might see a revival of the deal whereby GA convert their outstanding x18 737-700 order to x25 737-800's.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 5):
I'm sorry, but I developed some kind of skepticism with their orders...

As have I  Wink

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
If Garuda needs to re-build traffic, then starting with a lease might be the logical way to go since the initial capital expenditures will be lower.

Judging by the wording of the article, I believe they'll be leasing them from Boeing Capital, with the intention of buying the frames at the end of the lease.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
a non-stop LGW-BKK route would do well - we dont have a direct link to Indonesia at the moment so most of if not all the UK-Indonesia travel goes via KL/AMS or via CX/SQ through their hubs.

I'm guessing you meant "a non-stop LGW-CGK"?  Wink

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 12):
Was also talk about GA to order A320s last year.

There were a few brief rumors. However, I don't believe anything ever came of it.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 17):
I'd love to see a GA 77L though - lovely livery and a frackin' beautiful plane.

Slightly off topic, but a number of years ago I built a GA 777-200ER model, using a 777 blank kit and GA MD-11 decals. It certainly is a beautiful combination!


Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineSSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7968 times:



Quoting Kappel (Thread starter):
The deal seems a bit odd, first leasing than later buying the aircraft. Does this happen often? I know carriers often buy the frames and then sign a sale and lease back agreement with a leasing company.

If I compare it to buying a car "lease to buy," my guess is that this may be more expensive in the long run, but that you have to put up less money in the short term. So Garuda can operate the A/C and be making money with it, before they incur the larger expense of purchasing it.



I come in peace
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7923 times:



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):

Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 10):
Congrats to both Garuda and Boeing. I wonder if this means returning LAX is possible?

IF this order goes ahead and they do take the 77L, then I would say LAX is easily reachable with no problems. Whether they would want to is another question. What higher yield pax there are may prefer to go via SIN with SQ and ULH routes with low yields can be a bit sticky as we know.

I would assume that they are going to go 77L, for one, GE tends to give favorable financing terms on them, and in other cases, like with DL, Boeing gave them the free upgrade. The 77L would be able to do much better with cargo payload, which will I'm sure help this flight make money. I would assume non-stop to Europe, being that any major city to BKK is pretty competitive, whereas the direct flights would leave them in their own niche. As for going to LAX, I would imagine they would try to go fifth freedom through somewhere - like CGK-TPE-LAX.

As for them entering the kangaroo route, yields on that are pretty poor, so I'd imagine their euro routes would need to be struggling pretty badly before they entered that fray.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1813 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7901 times:



Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 21):
but that you have to put up less money in the short term

Yeah, that is a strange way to buy the aircrafts. I don't know about a lot of foreign airlines but in the case of JAL and a lot of their B744 fleet, they bought it and stakes were sold immediately upon delivery to certain companies.

Leasing and then paying for the entire thing sounds like what a lot of my friends did to their cars in Canada (when I lived there). They would have a down payment, and then two years or so down the road, they would pay for the entire car and for the 24 months, would pay a lease every month.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7779 times:



Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 20):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
a non-stop LGW-BKK route would do well - we dont have a direct link to Indonesia at the moment so most of if not all the UK-Indonesia travel goes via KL/AMS or via CX/SQ through their hubs.

I'm guessing you meant "a non-stop LGW-CGK"?

Correct - my bad.

Although a non-stop LGW-BKK link would do well if they fancied doing a one-stopper using the 772ER like they used to (IIRC).

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 22):
and in other cases, like with DL, Boeing gave them the free upgrade.

Really - do you have a source for this? Its not that I dont believe you, I'm just interested.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 22):
As for going to LAX, I would imagine they would try to go fifth freedom through somewhere - like CGK-TPE-LAX.

Hmmm. I am inclined to agree. I wonder if they wouldnt consider going via MNL or NRT as well. TPE looks favourite though, I agree. If they were REALLY smart they would try to go via SGN - massively underserved and both cities together would likely support a daily 77L rotation quite nicely IMHO.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 22):
I would assume non-stop to Europe, being that any major city to BKK is pretty competitive, whereas the direct flights would leave them in their own niche.

Hmm. Tough one this. On the one hand you have BKK and the massive traffic (although not necessarily yields) it owuld bring but non-stop would be great. Non-stop 77L filled to the brim with cargo daily from AMS would do brilliantly for them I think. One stop 77E LGW/LHR - BKK - CGK would also be brilliant, if they could get the right timings.

I'd be on there in a heartbeat - one of those airlines I'd love to fly with but never had the opportunity. Bali, Gili and Lombok are the destination for my three week holidays in December but at the moment its looking like AMS-CGK-DPS with KL in C, or LHR-DXB-CGK in EY C class.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
25 FlyDreamliner : I would assume that they are going to go 77L, for one, GE tends to give favorable financing terms on them, and in other cases, like with DL, Boeing g
26 Plane Holland : Would be nice to see the 777 in Garuda colours , however I think they're still on the blacklist in The Netherlands..
27 Post contains links EGNR : All Indonesian airlines were banned from all EU countries in mid-2007 BBC News story. "European citizens should avoid flying with these carriers," an
28 CHRISBA777ER : To be fair the Yoghurtjakarta crash thread makes some chilling reading. :s
29 KLMD11L : About time for them to catch up, I wonder why this airline is lagging behind, Indonesia's population is huge, Bali is a prime tourist destination in A
30 Mandala499 : Join the club. This upcoming signing according to the info will only be an MoU. GA isn't looking at 77Ls AFAIK. They put out an invitation to bid for
31 Behramjee : Personally speaking, I would recommend to GA's board to order a mixture of B 77Ls and B 773ERs because the latter will prove to be an ideal replacemen
32 GARUDAROD : Having worked for GA at LAX, I can say there is a purpose for CGK-LAX, but there in not enough demand to operate it. There was some business traffic o
33 The777Man : Don't forget that GA still have 6 -200/ER on order from a long time ago. Hopefully they are now more likely to be delivered.... I think a LAX-DPS-CGK
34 Georgiabill : Just a quick question. Where is Garuda operating their 744'S to now? Assuming they could get authority to resume flights to AMS and FRA why not use th
35 777ER : Would be a good order if true, but like others I will believe it when I see a pic of one operating a GA flight considering their 'orders' over the las
36 DJ748 : It might not be too big. They do have 747-400's in their fleet. There are photos in the the database here, and when I was in Sydney for 2 nights last
37 Post contains images CHRISBA777ER : They only have three of them mate - albeit with a C41Y386 layout. The 777s are probably to replace the A333s and the 744s - thats a total of nine air
38 SEPilot : Why would they split the order? Does the 77L cost that much more to operate if not used to capacity? I would think the flexibility of having all of t
39 CHRISBA777ER : The dont really have many truly long-haul routes. The middle east is only six/seven hours away and so is anywhere in Oz. Their 744s are used on the D
40 Mandala499 : I think it would be foolish for GA to fly CGK-LGW non-stop. I think the last "successful" combination was LGW-BKK-DPS... not CGK. If they want a direc
41 HB-IWC : A lot of misinformation and wishful thinking here: The B744s are deployed to RUH, JED and NRT mainly, although they occasionally pop up on other route
42 Post contains links and images Heavierthanair : G'day While I largely agree to your post someone seems to think differently and has big plans http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-800s-and-firm-or
43 Post contains images CHRISBA777ER : You got me - I scanned through the Garuda 744 pics on here So to a point you agree with me - that they dont need to replace the 744s with something o
44 AA1818 : Great news! I look forward to this becoming a reality. I'm not as concerned with what they are going to do with the narrowbodies as I am with all tho
45 CHRISBA777ER : Like India-Whiskey-Charlie says, Its unlikely that it will ever actually happen, but stranger things have happened. I hope they do, I really do.
46 HB-IWC : There is still quite some untapped potential in the domestic market. On the international front, Garuda and, for that matter Indonesia as a country,
47 Post contains images Mandala499 : HB-IWC, it's obvious that what's contained in my reply is largely wishful thinking... there are other factors that the "hopeful" participants haven't
48 EA772LR : This according to ATW: "Garuda set for significant 777 order Wednesday February 13, 2008 In a major fleet upgrade, Garuda Indonesia plans to order 10
49 HB-IWC : That is exactly the point. After more than 2 years, the financing package for the B787 deal has still not been finalized, as witnessed by the lack of
50 Mandala499 : And the saddest thing of all, no matter how good or bad the board of directors are... getting 5 mins of limelight with things like this is more or le
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