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Flightblogger: Dreamliner Two Brings Progress  
User currently offlineNycbjr From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 447 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9696 times:

Didn't see anyone discussing Jon's latest blog entry... seems more and more likely Dreamliner 2 could possibly fly first.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...reamliner-two-brings-progress.html

Glad to see some progress

If it is being discussed please go ahead and delete!

Cheers

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSmokeyrosco From Ireland, joined Dec 2005, 2112 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9580 times:

When is the first flight schedualed for now?


John Hancock
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1876 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9382 times:

End of June.

filler
filler
filler



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5752 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9320 times:

First flight is still tentatively schedule for around late June-early July.

This is very good news and if the future sections start arrivnig in better condition then the previous airplane then it seems that Boeing and the partners are overcoming the supply chain and shortage issues that caused the delays in the first place. Certainly very good news for the 787.

Jon said in his piece that LN 2 might fly before LN 1. This might be aproblem mainly because of the fact that there are three airframes in front of it surrounded by scaffolding and other tooling in order to access areas where they need to finish assembly. Boeing is not about to remove all the scaffolding and fixtures, roll out the 3 planes in positions 2 through 4 so they can move out LN 2. By the time they do all that LN 1 will be ready to move.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2223 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9240 times:

I am glad that things turn normal. The execution approaches the underlying idea.

This sentence made me wonder:
"The level of completion of the nose section even caught those in the factory off guard, "Just wow. Everyone is stunned," remarked one engineer."

What I wonder is why people were surprised about the completion state of the arrived section. If supplier management and configuration management are run well they know exactly the state of the shipped parts.

It sounds a bit like the LCF Dreamlifter is a big showbag that holds surprises each time its doors pop up! Hopefully the trend of good surprises continues!

Regard Martin


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9158 times:

Great news for the program, but I do wonder why everyone was surprised at the level of completion of the nose. Did Spirit not communicate this closely with Boeing so they had some idea of what they were getting? One would think this would be the proper way to go about it.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9103 times:

Hopefully this more complete nose section is a step ahead in the supply chain. The protos have to get ready to start the flight test programs..

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z160/keesje_pics/787cockpitproduction.jpg


User currently offlineSphealey From United States of America, joined May 2005, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8995 times:



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
Jon said in his piece that LN 2 might fly before LN 1. This might be aproblem mainly because of the fact that there are three airframes in front of it surrounded by scaffolding and other tooling in order to access areas where they need to finish assembly. Boeing is not about to remove all the scaffolding and fixtures, roll out the 3 planes in positions 2 through 4 so they can move out LN 2. By the time they do all that LN 1 will be ready to move.

It is amazing what can be done by human beings when the decide to do it. This is particularly true when a fresh eye is brought to a situation and that fresh eye has a realistic estimate of how much NOT fixing the problem is costing per day - which gives him a good idea how much can be spent to overcome the situation. Hint: that amount is usually far higher than anyone who was immersed in the situation thinks (through no fault of their own).

As an example from another industry, pressurized water reactor (PWR) steam generators were designed to last the 30-40 year lifespan of the plant and no provision was made to replace them - including no provision for getting them out of a containment structure with 5 m thick concrete walls. When the first PWR steam generators started wearing out at 10-15 years there was a bit of panic in the industry. Eventually a plan was developed for cutting a hole in the containment, removing/replacing the steam generators, and repairing the hole to original specifications. The first replacement took 14 months IIRC; the most recent one I read about took 24 days even though the only possible spot to cut through the containment was at 30 m above grade so the entire task had to be done with platforms and cranes at that level (no driving bulldozers into the containment through the hole as had been done elsewhere).

So if a person with the knowledge and authority comes in and says: "It is costing us $x million/day to not have #2 in the air. We will do A, B, and C to get #2 to the head of the line." then it will get done.

sPh


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8953 times:



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
Jon said in his piece that LN 2 might fly before LN 1. This might be aproblem mainly because of the fact that there are three airframes in front of it surrounded by scaffolding and other tooling in order to access areas where they need to finish assembly. Boeing is not about to remove all the scaffolding and fixtures, roll out the 3 planes in positions 2 through 4 so they can move out LN 2. By the time they do all that LN 1 will be ready to move.

All of that stuff (scaffolds, tooling, etc.) is on wheels. Moving the planes around is a hassle, but not nearly as big a deal as it may appear. LN2 is not stuck in the factory...if they want to move it first, they can.

Tom.


User currently offlineRbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8888 times:

Looks like Boeing and it's 787 suppliers are starting to get some learning curve benefit. Nice to see some goods news come out of the program for a chnage. Hopefully they can keep it up.

User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8566 times:



Quoting Sphealey (Reply 7):
It is amazing what can be done by human beings when the decide to do it. This is particularly true when a fresh eye is brought to a situation and that fresh eye has a realistic estimate of how much NOT fixing the problem is costing per day - which gives him a good idea how much can be spent to overcome the situation. Hint: that amount is usually far higher than anyone who was immersed in the situation thinks (through no fault of their own).

As an example from another industry, pressurized water reactor (PWR) steam generators were designed to last the 30-40 year lifespan of the plant and no provision was made to replace them - including no provision for getting them out of a containment structure with 5 m thick concrete walls. When the first PWR steam generators started wearing out at 10-15 years there was a bit of panic in the industry. Eventually a plan was developed for cutting a hole in the containment, removing/replacing the steam generators, and repairing the hole to original specifications. The first replacement took 14 months IIRC; the most recent one I read about took 24 days even though the only possible spot to cut through the containment was at 30 m above grade so the entire task had to be done with platforms and cranes at that level (no driving bulldozers into the containment through the hole as had been done elsewhere).

So if a person with the knowledge and authority comes in and says: "It is costing us $x million/day to not have #2 in the air. We will do A, B, and C to get #2 to the head of the line." then it will get done.

I couldn't agree with the more really. If Boeing can beat expectations and their own forecasts, that will go a long way in giving the program the chance to really roar right back. A bottleneck is possible. However, it's not a question of whether Dreamliner Two moves out, but when the Static and Fatigue Airframes move to their respective testing locations. Their states of readiness will impact assembly by opening two assembly stations.

The 40-36 soak area in the rear of the factory can accomodate 1-2 air frames at a time, possibly more. However, I'm not sure how occupied with other equipment and parts it is right now.

A good barometer of health is how quickly LN2 moves to position two. This will demonstrate just how quickly a body join can be completed when the process isn't done out of sequence.

This is a big leap forward.

Onward,

IAD787



Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineHawkerCamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8452 times:

It is worth considering that flying LN2 first may not be possible since it is likely that only LN1 has the required level of flight load instrumentation built into the structure to allow the flight envelope to be opened for LN2-3-4-5-6.

User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8209 times:

Just had a chance to talk with someone in the program and they confirmed that moving aircraft around on the line is absolutely on the table if it's necessary. Getting the ball rolling is more important than preserving a sequence. The scaffolding moves for exactly this reason.


Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineHawkerCamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8129 times:



Quoting IAD787 (Reply 12):

Any news regarding the status of the Static Test Aircraft?


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5752 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8100 times:



Quoting IAD787 (Reply 12):
Just had a chance to talk with someone in the program and they confirmed that moving aircraft around on the line is absolutely on the table if it's necessary. Getting the ball rolling is more important than preserving a sequence. The scaffolding moves for exactly this reason.

That's important. Now it looks like they have to get the static and fatigue airframes out the door. I've been hearing that the static airframe can be out around March 15th but I'm not sure of that date. I wouldn't be surprised if LN 1 and LN 2 are completed around the same time and sent outside for the start of ground tests after power on.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineSphealey From United States of America, joined May 2005, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7904 times:

What does the static test article require to be complete? I would have thought it only needed the structural components (fuselage, wings, doors, floorbeams, etc) and not the wiring and plumbing. A lot to put together but not the time-consuming detail work of wiring, piping, and interior fitting. Yet it seems that these articles are taking as long to finish as LN 1. Is that a misimpression?

sPh


User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7614 times:

No misimpression. According to suppliers, fasteners are still a major issue. I'd guess this is affecting all of the airframes. But with a first flight unlikely before late summer, the ground test airframes are not on the critical path yet.

User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5154 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6693 times:



Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 5):
Did Spirit not communicate this closely with Boeing so they had some idea of what they were getting?

Of course they did. And the Boeing people at Spirit knew exactly what went out the door. But being told, "The thing is largely completed" and SEEING IT in real life are two different things. That's what caused the surprise among "engineers in the factory". Not that "Boeing" (whatever that means) didn't know what it was getting.


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2260 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6580 times:



Quoting IAD787 (Reply 12):
Just had a chance to talk with someone in the program and they confirmed that moving aircraft around on the line is absolutely on the table if it's necessary. Getting the ball rolling is more important than preserving a sequence. The scaffolding moves for exactly this reason.

I fully understand and agree with this thinking. But if Boeing will remove LN1 to make room for LN2, isn't there a possibility that LN3 and 4 will come along quite soon, and Boeing won't find space to bring LN1 back into the line? The more airplanes that arrive in Everett, the less space there will be for LN1. Does this mean that LN1 may be ditched?



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30904 posts, RR: 87
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6483 times:
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There is no chance LN001 will be ditched. The work Boeing is doing screwing it together is being relayed back to the partners which is why those partners are getting farther and farther along in terms of completion with the later ship-sets. LN997 and LN998 are going to another building for the static tests, so they won't be in 40-26 much longer, anyway. So if necessary, Boeing can roll LN001 next door or down to the 767 assembly bay to finish it off if LN002, 003, 004 and 005 are all present and ready for assembly.

It is nice to see that all the statements that those ship-sets are being delivered more complete are true and we now have physical proof of it sitting in 40-26. Vought still seems to be the weakest link in the chain, but even they are showing real progress so that is also good news.

 thumbsup 


User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6316 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
LN002, 003, 004 and 005 are all present and ready for assembly.

Stitch, I like your enthusiasm, but you are getting carried away.


User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2260 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6282 times:



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 20):
Stitch, I like your enthusiasm, but you are getting carried away.

Did you notice the word "if"? Sometimes, those two letters make all the difference in the world.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
if LN002, 003, 004 and 005 are all present and ready for assembly.




Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30904 posts, RR: 87
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5922 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 20):
Stitch, I like your enthusiasm, but you are getting carried away.

RedChili asked if Boeing would scrap LN001 to open an additional space to allow subsequent 787s to use those stations if they arrived before LN001 was completed. I was just answering his question which was the only way LN001 could not be in 40-26 was because LN002, LN003, LN004, and LN005 were there. And in such a case, LN001 could be in 40-25 or 40-23.

I like to think I was just answering a question, but...

[Edited 2008-02-13 16:12:11]

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12452 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5538 times:

I thought the most interesting part of the article was:

Quote:
According to Senior 787 Program leadership, "Fully complete and stuffed sections are expected to arrive from some partners starting with Airplane 5."

Reading through the lines, it seems that Spirit may be the first to deliver a fully completed section, and Vought may be the last. It's interesting to see the plural use of partners. Maybe we'll see a couple of partners delivering fully completed sections for #5.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineVHECA From Australia, joined May 2007, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4807 times:



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 4):
It sounds a bit like the LCF Dreamlifter is a big showbag that holds surprises each time its doors pop up! Hopefully the trend of good surprises continues!

If that is the case, I will have two, and one each for the kids! LOL!

Quoting Revelation (Reply 23):
I thought the most interesting part of the article was:

Quote:
According to Senior 787 Program leadership, "Fully complete and stuffed sections are expected to arrive from some partners starting with Airplane 5."

I thought that this quote was interesting too, as I first misread it, as stuffed for me is ruined or wrecked! Then I read it for what it was supposed to mean!

I, too, am glad that the process at Boeing is starting to fall somewhat back into place. Good luck and good fortune to first flight!

Cheers

VHECA



Types Flown on - 312,320,722,732,733,73H,73W,742,743,74C,752,762,AB4,D1C,D28,DHT,F27,L11
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 25, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1834 times:



Quoting Sphealey (Reply 15):
What does the static test article require to be complete?

Beyond fasteners, there is a ton of instrumentation that has to be installed on the static and fatigue airplanes, and it's all custom for that airplane. So, even though the details are different, it's similar to the type of work that LN1 is getting: out-of-sequence, one-off work.

Tom.


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