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AA And The APA  
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5296 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3466 times:

Having read that the APA is pushing AA to call for a federal mediator to join the negotiations, and that there is no substantive agreement on any of the major issues, here are some questions to discuss.

First, will the APA go on strike?

Second, if the APA does go on strike, does anyone want to guess when? Remember that a mediator must join the negotiations, dcelare an impasse, and then put the two sides into a 30-day-cooling-off period, before either side can engage in self-help (i.e., a strike by labor or lock-out by management).

Third, assuming that neither George Bush nor his successor sends the pilots back to work, how long would a strike last before an agreement is reached?

Fourth, if you want to, you can speculate as to how close the contract will come in terms of the pilots' pay demand, which I believe calls for an immediate 50% pay raise plus annual increases.

Considering that the new leadership at the APA increased the demands over pay and other issues, compared to the positions taken by the prior leadership, I don't see how a strike can be avoided.

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3446 times:



Quoting Ckfred (Thread starter):
Having read that the APA is pushing AA to call for a federal mediator to join the negotiations, and that there is no substantive agreement on any of the major issues, here are some questions to discuss

Here is a press release concerning the situation. http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/080213/20080213006071.html?.v=1

First of all, the request for the Federal Mediator is for a specific mediation program. The program would start on 3 March and continue for 4 weeks. If no agreement is reached by then, the section 5 mediation would kick in and last for 120 days. If nothing happened then the proffer of binding arbitration would be made, then pending a rejection, the 30 day cooling off period would start. That expiration is just at the beginning of September, which would be at the end of the busy season.

So, the beginning of September would be the earliest either side could resort to "self help". Personally, I doubt the pilot's will go out, just like I doubt their bottom line is 50% pay increase. However, I do think the company has underestimated the pilot's resolve to get the bonus issue under control. I can see the pilot's walking for that.

Remember, it was the company who invoked the early opener in the contract. Now after 18 months, it would appear there is no real desire on the company's part to get things resolved. Especially in light of the proposed time line where they make it through the summer season with out having to worry about a strike.

I really don't think there's any chance any president would order the pilot's back to work. It would be one of the slowest travel times of the year. Now if things drag out towards the Thanksgiving or Christmas holidays, I could see it happening then, especially since GW will only have a few weeks left in office. It would be his final parting shot at organized labor!


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4049 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3377 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 1):
I really don't think there's any chance any president would order the pilot's back to work.

Wouldn't a strike that lasts any longer than a few hours result in American declaring bankruptcy? It would be the occasion to tear up the contract and benefits and start from scratch.



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User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3367 times:



Quoting Ckfred (Thread starter):
First, will the APA go on strike?

APA has awful timing. In 2001 AA offerered the APA everything they wanted to fast track the negotiations with the promise that the APA wouldnt strike....APA said no...then came 9-11.

Now APA is gonan get screwed by the economy....Prediction no majoe legacy will make money in the 3Q 2008. I think this recession which just started will be deeper and longer than most realize......By early 2009 APA will be luckly to have what they currently hold and not give back more.


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

And where does this leave AA if mergers do start breaking out, will they run the risk of playing a spoiler somewhere without the pilots backing or will they try and negotiate some kind of early settelment so that they can be party to all the merger frenzy??

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11837 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

Personally, I don't think a strike (or the immediate chain of events leading to it) is a foregone conclusion. All of the chest-beating and posturing on the part of the APA aside, I see no reason why the two sides can't actually sit down and calmly, rationally, work things out, assuming the APA backs off its ridiculous openers (50% raises, etc.).

As much as AMR is stalling - and of course they are - I definitely think that Arpey, Brundage and the rest of them have just as much invested in a quick and equitable outcome as the pilots. The company is going to be dealing with three massive union contracts next year, and any opportunity to quickly and cleanly get one of them settled, as early as possible, assuming that it wouldn't bankrupt the company, seems to me to be an opportunity management would jump at.

Quite frankly, the pilots and the company are closer together than it may appear, because the pilots know they will never get even half of what they want. Never going to happen. The AA pilots are already pretty much the highest paid among their peer group in the entire United States, so there's not much argument from them about how "underpaid" they are. Nor should they expect to get any sympathy from anyone - the public, the company, or other AA unions - about their complaint that their wages haven't kept up with inflation. Guess what? That's life in 2008. Move on. The pilots know that if they ever got their 50% salary bump, it would bankrupt the company in a matter of months. And in that case, Arpey would rather take the company into bankruptcy, where he could get even deeper concessions from the APA, to say nothing of the other unions. And the APA knows this, which is, again, why it will never happen.

Every single AA employee I know - including some pilots - recognize that what the APA demanded was absolutely ridiculous and unreasonable. Everybody wants a raise, and everybody is going to get one, of some size or another. But what the pilots demanded was way over the top, unfair, and just plain comical - it's pissed a lot of people off. In addition, I know a lot of people inside and outside of AMR who also found the entire APA tactic of essentially negotiating in public (through crappy MS Excel 97 bar charts and the Star Telegram) deplorable, and were disgusted by the radicalized APA president implying that Arpey was essentially a "murderer."

What I think will ultimately happen is that this negotiating process will be like some others in AA's long and checkered labor relations past. It will be long and drawn out, and may include some mediation, but ultimately, the two sides will work something out. The stakes are too great: bankruptcy would be bad for everyone, and the pilots know it all too well. They have their multi-million-dollar pensions to protect, after all (you know, the ones that half of their peers at other airlines no longer have).

The final deal will probably end up being some form of a rise in pay rates (I doubt more than 5-15%), plus some minor benefits changes (more sick/vacation time, etc.) and finally lots and lots more stock options. On the flip side, the pilots will probably have to acquiesce a bit on their monthly minimums. They already have about the lowest monthly minimums of any pilot work group out there, and the company wants them to fly more and more hours. If this deal were tied with AA purchasing more planes and committing to growth - which has happened many times before between AA and the APA - I think the APA may just go along with it.


User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

AA is in between a rock and a hard place here...they have available cash, but what to spend it on?

The "rock": The APA and AA's two other major unions, all of whom have contracts amenable next year. The unions (pilots in particular) have a score to settle what with the bonus situation in management. True, there may have been some very good reasons for those bonuses, but to organized labor, it comes off as management feasting on the carrier at the expense of the rank-and-file's givebacks.

The "hard-place": All the merger hysteria that seems to be taking place. If AA doesn't spend the $ on new aircraft (more 777s, etc) or to buy another airline, assuming of course, that both DL/NW and CO/UA go through, then AA now finds itself dwarfed by its two largest rivals. AA gets a short term window of opportunity as both DL and CO are now fiddling with union/fleet/seniority/FF/IT issues, etc, (though DL seems to be doing a good job so far of managing things), but in the end, AA goes from being the largest airline to 3rd largest...is this a good thing or a bad thing? Problem is, if AA winds up buying more planes, or another airline, then the unions get rankled...i.e. "you could have given us a raise and instead you went and spent it on buying airTran/USAirways/Alaska".

Of course, they could always wait and see what happens with the merger hype (if anything) and then make their move accordingly, which, all told might be the best thing to do.

BTW, what is the deal on AA's outstanding pension obligations? Do they have any payments due right now?

EMB170



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3232 times:



Quoting EMB170 (Reply 6):
BTW, what is the deal on AA's outstanding pension obligations? Do they have any payments due right now?

Not much.
The Company’s 2007 pension contributions, along with strong investment returns, higher market discount rates and legislative changes to the mandatory pilot retirement age, helped to improve the accumulated benefit obligation funded status of AMR’s pension plans to 96 percent, up from 84 percent at the end of 2006.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 984 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3125 times:

Personally, I think this is awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BftB56WTkPo



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11837 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3081 times:



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 8):
Personally, I think this is awesome:

Yeah, that little piece of propoganda was cute (much like the Excel 97 bar charts), but it still showcases quite plainly the complete and totally disconnect between APA leadership and reality. AA's pilots are now pretty much the highest-paid in the industry, work less hours per month on average than just about any of their peers, and are now the single only pilot group in the entire U.S. airline industry to have defined-benefit pension plans that are still being actively funded and supported by their employer.

I know they want to make this a big "trust" thing - who do you "trust," America? Those big, greedy fat cats in their ivory towers, or us hard-working, lowly, underpaid captains who now have to choose between retiring to the Cape or in Monte Carlo? Life's just so tough.

They're just being absolutely ridiculous, and making this whole thing so much more than it really is. This isn't about "trust." It's not about "us versus them" or "good versus bad," or "greedy versus destitute," or "thief and victim." It's about economics. Pure and simple. AA's pilots are already overpaid - relative to their peers - and they want to be even further overpaid. Why that concept is so hard for the pilots to grasp - and why they feel this continual need to make this whole thing so personal (what with "trust" and implying that Arpey was a murderer) - is just beyond me.

I particularly liked that touching image of the seven year old holding up the picket that said, "Arpey Stole My College Fund." Classic.


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5296 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3034 times:

Commavia,

Isn't the pay scale for WN higher than AA's pay scale on 738 and MD-80? I know there are significant differences in work rules, but, considering the same seniority, hours flown in a month, etc., a 737 pilot at WN earns more than a 738 pilot at AA.

You make an interesting point about minimum hours. A good friend of mine is a pilot with AA, and he would love to see the minimum hours increased. It seems that he has two choices every month, take a schedule that fits around Little League, school, concerts, etc., with low hours or a bad schedule with high hours.


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3022 times:



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 10):
Isn't the pay scale for WN higher than AA's pay scale on 738 and MD-80?

Yes.

Quote:
I know there are significant differences in work rules, but, considering the same seniority, hours flown in a month, etc., a 737 pilot at WN earns more than a 738 pilot at AA.

Yes, and they have the opportunities to earn quite a bit more than AA pilots.

Quote:
You make an interesting point about minimum hours. A good friend of mine is a pilot with AA, and he would love to see the minimum hours increased. It seems that he has two choices every month, take a schedule that fits around Little League, school, concerts, etc., with low hours or a bad schedule with high hours.

Essentially, that is correct. AA keeps saying it wants its pilots to fly more "hard hours" yet their solution is to loosen the work rules so they don't have to pay as much when they (management) does not schedule the pilots to work more. Since there is no incentive to schedule the pilots more, their (not so) fancy computer scheduling program.... doesn't schedule pilots to fly more.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2994 times:



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 10):
Commavia,

Isn't the pay scale for WN higher than AA's pay scale on 738 and MD-80? I know there are significant differences in work rules, but, considering the same seniority, hours flown in a month, etc., a 737 pilot at WN earns more than a 738 pilot at AA.

You make an interesting point about minimum hours. A good friend of mine is a pilot with AA, and he would love to see the minimum hours increased. It seems that he has two choices every month, take a schedule that fits around Little League, school, concerts, etc., with low hours or a bad schedule with high hours.

ok, for my .02... well first off I don't think AA Care's about the total pay scale, rather they care that their pilots are the highest cost/ per productive hour pilots in the industry... if APA gives a generous set of work rules, AA will gladly pay if it helps them close the gap in terms of the previously mentioned ratio...

back to the original Post.. APA won't strike for a while... currently they are under contract, AA had asked all work groups to begin negotiating early, and that's why this seams to have been dragging on for a while... listen to the conference call.. mgmt outlined their position pretty well...



Why do I fly???
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 984 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2910 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
or us hard-working, lowly, underpaid captains who now have to choose between retiring to the Cape or in Monte Carlo? Life's just so tough.

You know, I had I very thorough response to your comment. But, after seeing that you're between the ages of 16-20, I'm not going to waste my time. Suffice it to say that, imo, what you wrote is to say the least wrong, and to say the most, ignorant and insulting.

Go read Hard Landings and get back to us. Better yet, work the length of time you've currently been breathing for a company that continues to take, and refuses to reward its employees sacrifices.



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11837 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2906 times:



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 13):
But, after seeing that you're between the ages of 16-20, I'm not going to waste my time.

Don't make assumptions, or draw conclusions about people's opinions (or their veracity) based on their age.

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 13):
Suffice it to say that, imo, what you wrote is to say the least wrong, and to say the most, ignorant and insulting.

Well, I'm sorry if you are insulted. That was certainly not my intention. But I still stand by the comment I made, and feel that it was fair and accurate.

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 13):
Go read Hard Landings and get back to us.

Respectfully, I've read Hard Landings about four times cover-to-cover, and lived it first hand. I know personally many of the cast of characters featured in it. I know exactly what it says, and I am familiar with the subject matter it covers.

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 13):
Better yet, work the length of time you've currently been breathing for a company that continues to take, and refuses to reward its employees sacrifices.

I know what AA's people have had to go through, better than you could possibly ever imagine. I understand the point of view of AA's employees, as would be clearly evident to you if you go back and read my other posts and replies on this topic (and there are many).

What I still don't understand - and have yet to had explained to me - is why the APA remains insistent on making irrational, ridiculous and downright stupid demands - that they know full well are all of the above, and will never happen - when they are already about the highest-paid at what they do. Pilots are hard working, and most (at least the ones I know) love their jobs. I appreciate that. But it doesn't change the fact that market realities dictate that they're already overpaid, and them calling Arpey a murderer and demanding 50% raises is just asinine.

Perhaps my comment was sarcastic, but the point I was making is one that I feel was quite valid. AA's APA pilots are among the best-compensated in their peer group, and yet they're still demanding unreasonable things. If they were a bit more reasonable, I'd have no problems with the APA at all - its their prerogative to seek the best they can for their membership, within reason. But I'm a little tired of some pilots monopolizing the victim role when, in my view (and again, you can go back and search more extensively to hear more of my views on this), the pilots union is being just as disingenuous - if not more so - than the company.

Again, I recognize that AMR's management is not perfect. Hell, half of the officers at AA could be replaced tomorrow without anyone really noticing. But there are some smart people on 6 North, and they're not all overpaid, lazy losers, and I think it is ridiculous for the pilots union to demonize them and claim poverty.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2887 times:



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 13):
You know, I had I very thorough response to your comment. But, after seeing that you're between the ages of 16-20, I'm not going to waste my time. Suffice it to say that, imo, what you wrote is to say the least wrong, and to say the most, ignorant and insulting.

You got to love all the "experts" on here. I too had thought of some, I thought, valid points to his statements, but then realised the age group and common sense got the better of me!


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2843 times:

Just a little update.


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ree-on-negotiations-timeframe.html


User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2296 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2818 times:

Let's stick to the topic and keep the debate going, shall we? Shutting down the debate due to someone's age exposes your own ignorance. Check Commavia's respect rating. We all stand to learn when we can freely share our ideas.

Back to the topic, I believe the leadership at APA knows the ridiculousness of their opener. But it was done to make a point. They are pissed off about the management bonuses, as all AA employees are, and they are seeking their share of the pie. APA's opener mirrored the pork of AA's bonus plan. APA would be happy to keep things status quo should AA give them the same bonus plan. Hell, I'd keep things status quo too. But until management compensates its union employees with proportional bonuses, the APA will fight the fight. The same can be said for the APFA and TWU. Awarding employees with $25 every month (if they reach on-time or customer service targets) while management reaps hundreds of millions in bonuses does nothing to motivate the work force and is a slap in the face. Additionally, AMR made over $500 million in profit last year, yet employees did not get profit sharing. Sure, AA paid out $800 to each employee as a consolation prize, but it falls far short of profit sharing and was only done to keep peace on the property. I can tell you one thing, that didn't happen. Many people took home less than $500 after taxes.

There were a couple of posts above that indicated the APFA's and TWU's contracts are amendable next year. That is incorrect, all contracts become amendable in May of this year. TWU began early openers in November '07 and the APFA will likely begin negotiations in May.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 984 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2782 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
why the APA remains insistent on making irrational, ridiculous and downright stupid demands

Stupid is a matter of opinion. While you may not agree with the road they've chosen, I assure you APA feels this is the best way to arrive at a level of compensation for their members that they feel IS reasonable.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
when they are already about the highest-paid at what they do

Why do you keep repeating this when it's been explained that it isn't true?

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.info/

You'll have to excuse me now as I'm off for to work for the next several days. But, I know that while I'm away from my family, I can

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
choose between retiring to the Cape or in Monte Carlo? Life's just so tough.

as I'm battling the ice storm in west Texas.
 irked 



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2779 times:



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 8):
Personally, I think this is awesome:

It's a nice piece of propoganda, but if you think about it, what in that video describes APA pilots as any different from a host of other airline pilots? Answer: nothing.

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 13):
Go read Hard Landings and get back to us.

Welcome to the world of big business. Nothing new in that book that hasn't been seen a hundred times before in other businesses.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
If they were a bit more reasonable, I'd have no problems with the APA at all - its their prerogative to seek the best they can for their membership, within reason. But I'm a little tired of some pilots monopolizing the victim role when, in my view (and again, you can go back and search more extensively to hear more of my views on this), the pilots union is being just as disingenuous - if not more so - than the company.

APA is constantly complaining about AA management needing to get out and go look at other company's operations (especially employee relations). Those of us who had to live through GLAD, GLAS, etc. keep telling APA "leadership" that perhaps it (APA "leadership") should get out and GLAS' unions. Negotiating in public accomplishes nothing but creating problems and conflict. Denegrating management and individuals just makes it personal, and getting personal in the business of big business is..... just plain stupid!



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11837 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2766 times:

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 18):
While you may not agree with the road they've chosen, I assure you APA feels this is the best way to arrive at a level of compensation for their members that they feel IS reasonable.

The path the APA has chosen is a one-way ticket to bankruptcy, which is what I've personally determined is the ultimate goal. I can find no other explanation beyond that the APA is so bitter and pissed off at Arpey about him getting stock options in April (that the APA fully knew about, agreed to, and signed off on four years ago) that they now want to drive the company into bankruptcy just to stick it to him.

They demand 50% pay raises that they know they'll never get, and that they know will bankrupt the company in a matter of months if instituted. And then the advocate a sped-up timetable for negotiations, and going quickly to mediation so they can skip right to the cooling off period and then walk. Either way, it's heading towards bankruptcy which, again, is what I believe they want.

I understand that the pilots, and the rest of AA's employees, are pissed. And bitter. And cynical. Believe, I do. But the APA's apparent insistence on driving the company into bankruptcy, just to spite Arpey, is not only ridiculous and stupid, but just plain selfish. There are thousands of other AA employees - making dramatically less than the six-figures that most APA pilots live on - that depend desperately on their jobs at AA to put food on the table, and don't have the luxury of 64 hour-per-month minimums, nor multi-million-dollar pensions. For these people, pilots claiming poverty rings a bit hollow, and understandably so. Once again, AA's pilots are already among the highest-paid in the United States, and yet they're not asking for reasonable, fair, and equitable increases that won't bankrupt their employer, they're demanding 50% raises they know they'll never get precisely so they can bankrupt their employer.

BC, I go back once again to the question that I have been asking - repeatedly - here on A.net and elsewhere time and again for months as this entire public negotiation tactic of the APA's has dragged along: why are you worth it? Not to diminish in any way the important work that pilots do, their love for their jobs, and the massive amounts of responsibility (lives and property) they are saddled with every time that sit down in the left or right seat.

But why should AA's pilots get paid so much more than everybody else's? What is it about AA's pilots that makes them worthy of a 50% raise, and why should they get paid, say, 10% more than JetBlue's per hour, or 18% more than United's? Are they better trained? More experienced? Better with the lightly-humorous PA banter to customers during flight? What is it? Please, I'm dying to figure this out - please enlighten us. If the APA can convince me why they're worthy of a 50% raise, I'll happily support them in their fight. But I'm still waiting - still waiting to figure out why it is that they deserve to get paid so much more than their peers.

I'm still waiting for an answer...

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 18):
Why do you keep repeating this when it's been explained that it isn't true?

It is true, and I don't know what numbers you're looking at.

From AirlinePilotPay.com, a 737/A320 captain (used this aircraft size as it's pretty universal across all major U.S. airlines) tops out at:

AA - $163/hr (64 hrs/month guarantee)
CO - $166/hr (72 hrs/month guarantee)
DL - $154/hr (65 hrs/month guarantee)
NW - $139/hr (68 hrs/month guarantee)
UA - $133/hr (65 hrs/month guarantee)
US/West - $142/hr (78 hrs/month guarantee)
US/East - $125/hr (72 hrs/month guarantee)
WN - $198/hr (78 hrs/month guarantee)
B6 - $147/hr (70 hrs/month guarantee)

So, essentially, we have Southwest at 21.5% more per hour, but with a line flying minimum of 21.9% more per month per topped-out pilot. Continental pays their topped-out 737-800 captains 1.8% more per hour, but their pilots' minimum is 12.5% more than AA's.

Beyond that, for topped-out pilots, we have Delta paying their 737 captains 5.5% less per hour, Northwest paying their A320 captains 14.7% less, United paying their A320 captains 18.4% less, US/HP paying their A320 captains 12.9% less, US/US paying their A320 captains 23.3% less, and JetBlue paying their A320 captains 9.8% less. And, oh yeah, by the way, the monthly minimums for a non-reserve, line-holding pilot at every single one of these airlines is higher than at AA.

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 18):
as I'm battling the ice storm in west Texas.


Good luck with the ice storms - they're supposed to get pretty bad the next few days.

[Edited 2008-02-15 09:06:21]

User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5296 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2750 times:

I keep reading about the bonuses, and it just irks me to no end. First, the bonuses were paid in stock and not cash. Non-cash compensation has no effect on a company's bottom line or cash balance.

Second, AA's unions are acting like this is the first time a company has decided to reward its senior management at the expense of the underlings who make the company go on a daily basis. Wrong. Every Fortune 1000 company does this. My wife's former employer used to give bonuses based on company performance to all 80,000+ employees. Then, bonuses were elinimated in FY '03, except for the top 500 or so senior management. And they did well, because they kept increasing the bottom line by laying off thousands of employees, closing offices, and outsourcing to India.

The bottom line is to quit trying to teach managment a lesson and just assume that senior management will be better off than you.

The whole point of negotiating a compensation agreement is to figure out what is the most that management can offer and get management to put that offer on the table. Berating management and trying to make them feel guilty for giving themselves a lot of compensation won't do that.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2744 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
So, essentially, we have Southwest at 21.5% more per hour, but with a line flying minimum of 21.9% more per month per topped-out pilot. Continental pays their topped-out 737-800 captains 1.8% more per hour, but their pilots' minimum is 12.5% more than AA's.

First of all, you are not quite right in what you're saying. The guarantee is for most pilots not an issue as most companies will try to fly or construct lines of flying to optimize the block/credit hours. The simple fact is the WN pilots make significantly more per hour than their AA counterparts. However, just looking at pay rates is somewhat misleading too as each company has their own methodology in terms of trip rig. What you really have to look at is the number of days off per month and the final W-2 earnings statement at the end of the year. Having said that, I have friends at both companies and from what I have heard from both the WN pilots make quite a bit more especially when you add the stock options into the compensation package.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
The path the APA has chosen is a one-way ticket to bankruptcy, which is what I've personally determined is the ultimate goal.

I'm glad you have determined that, but none of their advisors have come to that conclusion. You need to put their demands in context. You also reference their demand for a 50% raise, if I am not mistaken their position is a 30.5% pay bump with with annual increases of 15% annually. If as you say, bankruptcy was the APA's goal, why would the company negotiate with them? The, the company, could just approach the NMB and get the wheels in motion for both sides to seek self help. I think the company realises there some substantial downsides to bankruptcy and given the "bigger picture" they are better off trying to negotiate with APA.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
But why should AA's pilots get paid so much more than everybody else's? What is it about AA's pilots that makes them worthy of a 50% raise, and why should they get paid, say, 10% more than JetBlue's per hour, or 18% more than United's? Are they better trained? More experienced? Better with the lightly-humorous PA banter to customers during flight? What is it? Please, I'm dying to figure this out - please enlighten us. If the APA can convince me why they're worthy of a 50% raise, I'll happily support them in their fight. But I'm still waiting - still waiting to figure out why it is that they deserve to get paid so much more than their peers



Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
BC, I go back once again to the question that I have been asking - repeatedly - here on A.net and elsewhere time and again for months as this entire public negotiation tactic of the APA's has dragged along: why are you worth it? Not to diminish in any way the important work that pilots do, their love for their jobs, and the massive amounts of responsibility (lives and property) they are saddled with every time that sit down in the left or right seat.

I really have to laugh at your rhetorical question. Are you really for real? Are you suggesting pattern bargaining? I think your position is one based on your naivete which some would say is directly related to your age. The bottom line is APA wants the pilots it represents to share not only in the pain but in the gain. If you can't understand that then perhaps you might want to dwell on it for a while. To answer your question directly, the company in their recruiting propaganda goes to great lengths that the pilots AA hires are the best in the industry. Is this a case of they don't really believe that? If not, then don't say it. If you do believe it then you should be prepared to pay the price. I interviewed with AA a long time ago (84) and they went to great lengths to drive that point home. However, since they were the leader of the B scale, I decided to take my skills elsewhere. (Nurse Ratchet didn't help either!)

Quoting Commavia (Reply 20):
I understand that the pilots, and the rest of AA's employees, are pissed. And bitter. And cynical. Believe, I do. But the APA's apparent insistence on driving the company into bankruptcy, just to spite Arpey, is not only ridiculous and stupid, but just plain selfish. There are thousands of other AA employees - making dramatically less than the six-figures that most APA pilots live on - that depend desperately on their jobs at AA to put food on the table, and don't have the luxury of 64 hour-per-month minimums, nor multi-million-dollar pensions. For these people, pilots claiming poverty rings a bit hollow, and understandably so. Once again, AA's pilots are already among the highest-paid in the United States, and yet they're not asking for reasonable, fair, and equitable increases that won't bankrupt their employer, they're demanding 50% raises they know they'll never get precisely so they can bankrupt their employer.

Again, I think you're missing the point. APA has a responsibility to represent their pilots. They don't represent every employee group at AA and they have no reason to even talk about their compensation. Show me one single other employee group at AA that has their health monitored and their skills tested to the same degree as the pilots? Again in the above quote, you are confusing the 64 hour minimum. If, as you say, you know so many pilots at AA, then you might want to have them explain just how pilot pay really works. To be honest you don't have a clue! And I'm not just talking about pilot pay.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11837 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2733 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
Are you suggesting pattern bargaining?

Wasn't industry best +1 pretty much standard pilot union policy back in the go-go 1990s?

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
The bottom line is APA wants the pilots it represents to share not only in the pain but in the gain. If you can't understand that then perhaps you might want to dwell on it for a while.

AA's pilots have all shared in the gain. Make no mistake. They all got tens of thousands of dollars worth of stock options, themselves, back in 2003. And, while we're on the subject of "shar[ing] not only in the pain but in the gain," let's make it clear for everyone that the pilots knew exactly what the deal was with Arpey's non-cash stock option compensation way back in 2003. They knew full well that Arpey (and about 950 other AA managers) stood to potentially benefit from a big upside if the company's finances improved for several years. What the unions didn't figure was just how dramatically AA's finances would improve - AA's management has done an incredible job in the last few years of restoring some semblance of stability to the company's balance sheet. There's still a long way to go, no doubt, but they have cut the company's debt about in half in the last five years, and - with the help of labor and its concessions - gotten the company to consistently generate cashflow from operations, which is great. The unions knew that if that were all to happen, and thus AMR stock were to rise so much, AA's managers stood to make a lot. They knew it, they agreed to it, and they supported it. The problem is, fast forward four years, and now we see the results - AMR finances are better, the stock ran up dramatically (although it's now drawn down by more than half) - and the APA is no longer happy with the results. Even though they knew full well that what did happen could have, back in 2003, they decided that it was no longer "fair" and thus they fought the company over it.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
If you do believe it then you should be prepared to pay the price.

Well, it's 2008 now, not 1984. And I think that it's now clear to any pilot who is rational that AA can no longer afford to "pay the price" for these supposedly exceptional pilots the APA represents. In fact, they couldn't afford it back in 1999 or 2000, and they sure as h*ll can't afford it now when peers at other airlines are working more and getting paid less for doing the same job.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
They don't represent every employee group at AA and they have no reason to even talk about their compensation.

Of course not. It is the APA's prerogative to do whatever is in the best interests of their members. Absolutely - I recognize that and support that. That's the point of a union. The point I was making, however, is that making ridiculous demands and outrageous, inflammatory and acerbic comments is not in the best interest of their members, nor the thousands of other coworkers who's careers are held in the balance because the pilots think they're underpaid (even though the market has pretty conclusively proven that they're actually overpaid).

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
Again in the above quote, you are confusing the 64 hour minimum. If, as you say, you know so many pilots at AA, then you might want to have them explain just how pilot pay really works.

I understand it perfectly. I fully recognize that there are few pilots who fly the minimums because they have to bid based on the sequences the company builds, and pilots almost universally work well above the minimums. The point, though, is that the pilots at AA are still paid more on a per-hour basis, and still work less, on average, than pilots at other airlines. I'm not talking about minimums - I'm talking about overall aggregate hours in the air per month. Study after study has shown conclusively that AA's pilots work significantly less per month, on average, than, say, JetBlue's pilots. And they get paid more for doing it. It's just fact. Plain and simple.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
To be honest you don't have a clue! And I'm not just talking about pilot pay.

You're entitled to think that. I believe you're wrong, and you have absolutely no idea what I do and don't have a clue about, but you are entitled to think that.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2718 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
Wasn't industry best +1 pretty much standard pilot union policy back in the go-go 1990s?

Sorry to say not. You just can't compare $/hour you need to look at work rules and other non-monetary issues.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
Study after study has shown conclusively that AA's pilots work significantly less per month, on average, than, say, JetBlue's pilots. And they get paid more for doing it. It's just fact. Plain and simple.

Care to share some of them?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
You're entitled to think that. I believe you're wrong, and you have absolutely no idea what I do and don't have a clue about, but you are entitled to think that

Well then, enlighten me! All I can do is look at your profile and read your posts and that's the conclusion I have reached. Plus, I don't need your permission/endorsment to tell me I'm entitled to think that. You have left me no other conclusion. If I'm wrong convince me. If you don't want to do it in public, email me, or PM me. So far you have just pontificated baseless facts and have expected everyone to take them as gospel.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
Well, it's 2008 now, not 1984. And I think that it's now clear to any pilot who is rational that AA can no longer afford to "pay the price" for these supposedly exceptional pilots the APA represents. In fact, they couldn't afford it back in 1999 or 2000, and they sure as h*ll can't afford it now when peers at other airlines are working more and getting paid less for doing the same job.

Please keep your comments in mind when you're doing job hunting. Remember the old adage: "Pay peanuts, get monkeys". I think you are kidding your self. I hope you don't believe for a minute APA's bottom line is their opener?


25 Post contains images Revelation : No, the US law does not allow the contract to be torn up, as it once did. " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BftB5...WTkPo I think it's a
26 Commavia : No, not really. I don't have the time nor the energy to go and find them online. But they're there. They've been extensively discussed here on A.net,
27 Post contains images Barney Captain : Im certain they don't for a second, forget about the invaluable roll all of the employees play in each and every flight. Those employee groups all ha
28 QQflyboy : That's not the point. The point is AA's management has reaped handsome stock awards based on the company's stock price, and how it's doing compared t
29 Post contains images AAR90 : Sorry, not even close...even at last year's $40/share price. OTOH, the 1991(or so) options earned a pretty penny. I think APA "leaders" knew AA finan
30 Commavia : Each full-time (APA-represented) pilot on U.S. payroll as of 15 April 2003 was granted an average of 944 stock options with that date as the date of
31 Revelation : LOL! I think you hit the nail on the head.
32 Incitatus : That simply cannot be correct. Southwest's stock barely moved in the last 8 years. The vast majority of stock options they issued in the last 8 years
33 DFWMzuri : The sound track was great: classic rock and roll. As for the message: one sided union tripe. Politics as usual. Ouch. Threw him right under that bus.
34 PhilSquares : As I wrote in a previous post, it would be nice to have ANY example of what you say. I offered to continue this discussion going by PM or email, but
35 Commavia : Who ever said that? What I said is that people won't pay for anything they don't have to. Customers no longer have to pay for bloated, above-market c
36 PhilSquares : I would compare threads on this topic to on this site as getting information from Wikipedia! As I asked you earlier, show me an authoritative study,
37 Commavia : I do read every word I type. And I repeat, once again - I never said anything about "service." The operative word that I used was "value." The questi
38 LAXdude1023 : Im not sure asking for huge pay raises when they already get paid more than most in the industry for doing nothing more is reasonable. I just hope th
39 Post contains links PhilSquares : Since you are unable/unwilling (same in my opinion) to provide data to support your position. You might want to take a look at this website. I would
40 Apodino : " target=_blank>http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/E....html Thats a very interesting chart. If I read it correctly, if AA pilots flew with the same
41 AA717driver : In 1985, when Carl Icahn took over TWA and forced a draconian pay cut on the pilots, MD80 Captains were paid $95/hour. This rate was abhorrent and was
42 AAR90 : The only problem with this logic is... pilots do NOT generate revenue. Pilots fly airplanes. It is a COST (to the corporation) of operating an airpla
43 Commavia : Well, sorry to say, if that's how you feel, than you should just go get a job with NetJets. Pay scales for pilots are, like it or not, determined - i
44 Apodino : BS flag. If there are no pilots to fly the planes, than the revenue is not generated since the business goes elsewhere.
45 JustPlaneNutz : Double BS flag. That goes for every workgroup within the company-pilots are no different than anyone else, just harder to train.
46 AAR90 : Relax dude. No pilot makes any decision that affects the generation of revenue. So trying to connect a pilot's compensation to the revenue he suppose
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