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AI And 9W Negotiating For ~60 Boeing Widebodies  
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30639 posts, RR: 84
Posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8681 times:
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Quote:
Aircraft manufacturer Boeing is negotiating with the country’s two major carriers Air India and Jet Airways for 60 wide-bodied aircraft.

The combined deals are expected to be valued at $15 billion. Most of these aircraft are being bought for use on international routes.

"Airlines in India like Jet Airways and Air India have firm orders with Boeing for delivery till the year 2011. Now they are planning beyond that in view of expected market growth," said Dinesh Keskar, senior vice-president (sales), Boeing Commercial Airplanes.

Air India is studying how many aircraft it requires and Jet Airways is also planning more wide-bodied aircraft to service the expansion of its international network.

http://www.business-standard.com/com...1&bKeyFlag=BO&autono=313737&chkFlg

And to think Boeing was just saying they expected Indian deliveries to decline next decade...  cheeky 

More 77Ws for 9W I expect, and likely some additional 787s.

AI could take more 77Ws and/or 77Ls or perhaps they will become the second 747-8I customer?

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4756 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8517 times:

I would imagine a whole load of B 777s being ordered by both airlines as they can be delivered to the airline within 2-3 years max where as B 787s will take much longer which neither airline can ill afford to wait due to the growth of the Indian aviation market especially with now Middle East bilateral agreements allowing 9W to fly there. If 9W wish to fly nonstop to USA, the best aircraft for them to order is the B 772LR which I hope is in their minds.

User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8512 times:

Are AI and 9W talking exclusively with Boeing ?

Are they negociating for 60 WBs with Boeing , and another part with Airbus ?


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3384 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8476 times:



Quoting FCKC (Reply 2):
Are they negociating for 60 WBs with Boeing , and another part with Airbus ?

There has been talk of both airlines being future A380 customers but I don't know about smaller Wides which is what I think this order is for.


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8452 times:

I dont think the 748 is in play here.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5737 posts, RR: 48
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8415 times:



Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 4):
I dont think the 748 is in play here.

Well AI said they're going to look at both the 748I and the A380.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8347 times:

I'm sorry Stitch but the tittle is very misleading. If we read the article carefully we can conclude that both aircraft ( Airbus and Boeing ) are in the running to win a WB order.

]Said S Venkat, executive director (finance), Air India, "The airline will finalise the orders it is going to place with aircraft manufacturers in the next three months.

If rumours are correct, I would not all be surprised to see an order for the A332/A332F and A380's.  Smile

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8341 times:

Unfortunately, negotiating is kinda vague. If this had read "Air India is negotiating with Boeing" or "Jet Airways is negotiating with Boeing" I'd be a little more excited. But this reads like the usual "Boeing is in talks with 25 airlines around the world for the 748-i".

User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8231 times:



Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):

Actually I think both of you are right. From the article I get the AI and 9W are going to order 60 Boeing widebodies and that they are also in negotiations with Airbus for planes too. Since this is most likely a government order it probably isn't a winner take all contest.


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7997 times:

I expect there would have been significant incentive for Mr. Thulasidas to have finalized AI's orders before his retirement at the end of next month. If the new Managing Director is from the former Indian Airlines organization (e.g. Mr. Trivedi), that organization has had a history of favoring Airbus for orders.

AI's executive director (finance), seems very optimistic indeed stating a time frame of three months for AI finalizing their orders given all the Govt oversight committees and political shenanigans that will surely impede the procurements.



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30639 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7856 times:
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Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
I'm sorry Stitch but the tittle is very misleading. If we read the article carefully we can conclude that both aircraft ( Airbus and Boeing ) are in the running to win a WB order.

The title of the actual article says they are going to buy 60 Boeing planes, but since the first paragraph said they were negotiating, I felt it was the "safer" title to go with. They are also not the only source I found that stated that the discussions were with Boeing.

Bloomberg is also reporting it as Boeing is holding the talks.

So is Thomson Financial, whose article has been picked up by CNN Money and TechWhack.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
If rumours are correct, I would not all be surprised to see an order for the A332/A332F and A380's.  Smile

Well AI only has two A332s, both on lease, so do they really need more with 27 787-8's coming? And with the 77W and 77L, would not the 77F work better for AI? Assuming they even want a new cargo plane? They will have six A310Fs and six 732Fs so an A332F or 77F would be a huge increase.

9W has 8 A332s, but also 10 787-8s. Would they need more? And 9W doesn't have a dedicated cargo fleet that I can find, so where would the A332F fit?


User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2885 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7584 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
If rumours are correct, I would not all be surprised to see an order for the A332/A332F and A380's. Smile

Well AI only has two A332s, both on lease, so do they really need more with 27 787-8's coming?

Agree with your points on the 787 and more would be a sensible choice but given a Unioun and governtment airline there is lot of pressure from IC A300 and A320 pilots for the 330/350 meanwhile AI pilots want 777s and 787s

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
9W has 8 A332s, but also 10 787-8s. Would they need more?

Thye have 7 more 332s coming in though which will give them a total fleet size of 15 by 2012

Karan


User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6836 times:



Quoting NorCal (Reply 8):
Actually I think both of you are right. From the article I get the AI and 9W are going to order 60 Boeing widebodies and that they are also in negotiations with Airbus for planes too. Since this is most likely a government order it probably isn't a winner take all contest.

Not sure what you mean by the "most likely a government order" comment... Sure AI is government-owned, but 9W is privately owned. And unlike in China, Indian private airlines are free to order from whomever they want.


User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6662 times:

Quoting NorCal (Reply 8):
Since this is most likely a government order it probably isn't a winner take all contest.

I believe Boeing took the entire cake in Dec. 05' with:

Air India INDIA South Asia 777-200LR GE 30-Dec-2005 8
Air India INDIA South Asia 777-300ER GE 30-Dec-2005 15
Air India INDIA South Asia 787-8 GE 30-Dec-2005 27

Air India Express INDIA South Asia 737-800 CF 30-Dec-2005 18

Also I know 9W is a large Boeing WB customer.

I believe they bought more 77W and 737-8 last year.

Wow... (60) from AI and 9W along with (40) from IA if that happens plus whatever they have to announce at Singapore.

I'll throw in the fact DL will fill allot of those NW 787 options after today's news.

[Edited 2008-02-14 19:38:07]


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6596 times:



Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
perhaps they will become the second 747-8I customer?

One can only hope to see such an order  yes 

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Well AI only has two A332s, both on lease, so do they really need more with 27 787-8's coming? And with the 77W and 77L, would not the 77F work better for AI?

Absolutely  checkmark 



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineNCB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5440 times:

Boeing told the newspaper that it was negociating with AI and 9W, which is pretty damn obvious that still doesn't mean they're buying. Bloomber is also citing: "Business Standard reported, without saying where it got the information. "

And 9W and AI have issued RFP's but nowhere did they say that they only did issue them to Boeing.
I think that the A380 will be ordered by Jet Airways and Air India, there is little doubt about that, they need it if they want to stay competitive against the likes of Emirates.

They also need to hurry if they want to get on the XWB's, delivery slots are starting to fill and Boeing announced that there would be no Y3 before long.

I understood that AI got cash compensation for the Dreamliner delays which implies that they are not ordering anymore from them.

I think the battle here is between the A380 and the B748i and so far the A380 has no reason to loose.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5043 times:



Quoting WINGS (Reply 6):
]Said S Venkat, executive director (finance), Air India, "The airline will finalise the orders it is going to place with aircraft manufacturers in the next three months.

The article states 60 Boeing widebodies but this quote only mentions to finalise orders with aircraft manufacturers.
I imagine that AI will have an all Boeing widebody fleet 787/777/747-8I ( crossfingers  Wink but Airbus narrowbodies.
Also orders with aircraft manufacturers can include ATR; Bombardier and Embraer etc..



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30639 posts, RR: 84
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3634 times:
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Quoting NCB (Reply 15):
I understood that AI got cash compensation for the Dreamliner delays which implies that they are not ordering anymore from them.

Boeing certainly could have said "here is your check for $Y million to compensate you for the delay. By the way, this week only we're offering a discount of $Z million each on the 747, 777 and 787. And if you buy today, we're only requiring a deposit of $Y divided by the number of frames you'd like to buy".

So AI could very well have taken that compensation check and endorsed it right back to Boeing.


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2967 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

Erm, its a BS (Business Standard, but you get the point) article, has wrong facts all over.. gets 9W's wide-body count pretty badly wrong.


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

After having read all the reports and added up all the pieces of information, we can conclude that AI and 9W are negotiating with manufacturers and Boeing are the only ones to have confirmed they are amongst those....

Sounds like on of those stories where an airline is going to order from several sources and Boeing is the only one willing to comment on it... Still remember the LH 748i story? It was all over the press weeks before it was made official by the airline and when they did, it turned out LH was also ordering a significant number of A330/A340s as well, which were totally unreported before...

I have a feeling we are about the see the same happening.

Quoting Columba (Reply 16):
Also orders with aircraft manufacturers can include ATR; Bombardier and Embraer etc..

Wide body orders????


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3522 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 19):
Also orders with aircraft manufacturers can include ATR; Bombardier and Embraer etc..

Wide body orders????

As I read the article posted above

Quote:

Aircraft manufacturer Boeing is negotiating with the country’s two major carriers Air India and Jet Airways for 60 wide-bodied aircraft...."The airline will finalise the orders it is going to place with aircraft manufacturers in the next three months."

Order for 60 widebodies will be one manufacturer Boeing, other aircraft such as narrowbodies and regionaljets other manufactuers.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
As I read the article posted above, the order for 60 widebodies will be one manufacturer Boeing, other aircraft such as narrowbodies and regionaljets other manufactuers.

Careful! Now you are INTERPRETING the text quite heavily in your favour.

In fact the text doesn't even say the expected Boeing order is going to be for the full 60 WB needed.

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
Quote:
Aircraft manufacturer Boeing is negotiating with the country’s two major carriers Air India and Jet Airways for 60 wide-bodied aircraft.

Their need is 60 and how much of their needs is Boeing going to be able to cover?

You assume the full 100% and hence you must explain the paragraph about the manufacturers as having to do with unspecified NB orders... But it needn't be that complicated. It may very well be still about what this article is about: a WB order, and the other manufacturer involved then automatically becomes Airbus. All it requires is NOT assuming that the 60 WBs these airlines are thinking off, will ALL come from Boeing. In fact it is NOWHERE said they will...

It would then also nicely explain this remark:

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
Airlines in India like Jet Airways and Air India have firm orders with Boeing for delivery till the year 2011. Now they are planning beyond that in view of expected market growth," said Dinesh Keskar, senior vice-president (sales), Boeing Commercial Airplanes.

Air India is studying how many aircraft it requires and Jet Airways is also planning more wide-bodied aircraft to service the expansion of its international network.

Because if these airlines are already negociating about 60 planes with Boeing, then their isn't much studying to do, is there? Alternatively, if they are negociating with BOTH A and B about a total of 60 WB planes, then there is still a lot of studying to be done to see which planes (from which manufacturer) would best suit which of the intended new routes.

[Edited 2008-02-15 08:25:38]

User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30639 posts, RR: 84
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3362 times:
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Quoting Slz396 (Reply 21):
Because if these airlines are already negociating about 60 planes with Boeing, then their isn't much studying to do, is there?

Even if the negotiations are solely for Boeing planes, there can still be discussions on what models and in what quantities they need.

AI's current and future Boeing widebody deliveries along with their lack of a serious heavy cargo arm should preclude an A330, A340 or A350 purchase anytime soon. So the only area where I see Airbus actively pitching an RFP at the moment is the A380. As such, AI would likely be looking at additional 777 and 787 purchases and likely weighing a 747 (and 77W) purchase against an A380 purchase.

9W's position is a bit more fluid, perhaps, in that they don't operate any "mid-size" widebodies. So they could conceivably be looking at the A330-300 and A340-300 as well as the 777-200ER and 777-200LR. If they want something regional in scope, then the A330-300 would be a nice addition to their A330-200 fleet. If they want something for long-haul, then the 777-200ER or 777-200LR would leverage their 777-300ER investment. They could also want more 777-300ERs or are looking at a later mid-range model delivery date which would open up the 787-9.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30639 posts, RR: 84
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3075 times:
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In addition to the actual order (of which everything I can find still points to Boeing), AI is also planning some short-term leases of new and used planes from both Boeing, Airbus and other leasing companies.

Quote:
Air India Ltd., formed after the merger of two state- run airlines, has issued a tender to lease new and used planes from Boeing Co., Airbus and global aircraft leasing companies, a senior company executive said Tuesday.

"NACIL intends to preferably take new aircraft or aircraft of less than five years age on dry lease from among Boeing 747-400, B777-200ER, B777-300ER, B777- 200LR, Airbus 330-200 and A340-300 type," Air India said in its tender document.

"The lease term for new aircraft is for a period of 7 years or 10 years or 12 years whereas for used aircraft it is 5 years or 7 years," the document said.

Air India wants the aircraft to be delivered in phases until 2011, it said. However, for new aircraft, it would consider deliveries until 2016.

Air India also plans to shortly order additional planes to meet its future requirements, Air India's Executive Director for Finance, S. Venkat, said. He didn't elaborate.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...OWJONESDJONLINE000191_FORTUNE5.htm


User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5429 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

According Business Weak(sp) an order is done and in place:
Lion Air ordered 56 Boeing 737-900ER
Garuda ordered four Boeing 777-300ER

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8UTIVTO1.htm

Tug



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
25 NCB : HU? What did you drink mate?
26 Mk777 : Didn't 9W just recently convert their 6 or 7 options on the 77W to a firm order? 10 77W's have been delivered so far, i guess that was the initial ord
27 BoeingFever777 : 9W has placed (13) firm orders for the 77W receiving (9) of them so far. VT-JEJ was delivered 31st Jan. VT-JEK was in primer and heading to paint I b
28 WestWing : VT-JEK flew to DEL on the 15th Feb so 9W now have ten 77Ws.
29 Tugger : Don't ask.... Read about it and remembered seeing stuff on A.net. But then I clicked on and posted into the wrong thread. Tug
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