Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Iberia Places Bid For Spanair  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

..in a move that most likely will run into EEC anti-trus issues.
That just hours after Marsan has withrawn from a take-over bid for the Spanish airline.
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...tilitiesNews/idUSL1480004020080214


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

I just read about this. I don't really like IB growing so much in Spain because the only other no-LCC carrier left in Spain will be Air Europa and I don't think that's good for competetition.

User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4040 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
That just hours after Marsan has withrawn from a take-over bid for the Spanish airline.

Marsans has still got 5% of the airline.



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineAirCatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4040 times:

BTW, a company called "Gestair" takes part in the bid as well. Does somebody know who they are?

User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3898 times:



Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 2):
Marsans has still got 5% of the airline.

No. They sold it some months ago.

Quoting AirCatalonia (Reply 3):
BTW, a company called "Gestair" takes part in the bid as well. Does somebody know who they are?

Gestair is a Madrid-based leading private aviation operator in Spain (recently, they got the concession to manage the private aviation terminal at BCN airport). It is a family-owned firm founded 30 years ago, and that now is in the process to incorporate some new shareholders, mainly equity funds.

You might know them as "Audeli" (now "Gestair Airlines", the branch that manages the extra capacity provider business, which now has IB as the only client, operating 4 A340 on behalf of Iberia) or as "Cygnus Air" (now "Gestair Cargo", the branch that operates a fleet of 2 B757-F on behalf of Iberia Cargo). They also have a joint-venture with Iberia Maintenance to develop a new workshop at Barajas devoted to the maintenance of helicopters, private aviation jets, and regional aviation aircrafts. In addition, they have a well-known education division in Spain and Portugal ("Gestair Flying Academy").

In the past, Gestair had other non-linked to aviation businesses, but they were sold (for instance, they were the official dealer of "Smart" in Spain.)


User currently offlineAcelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 839 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

Well if iberia do manage to buy Spanair they will remove alot of competetion in Spain and cannot see
how that is good for anyone apart from iberia....
What would happen with all the charter work that Spanair does?

Is anyone else likely to be interested in Spanair????



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2637 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3823 times:

Is this confirmed officially or still a rumor? And is this just IB+Gestair or did Air Nostrum get in there as well?

I'm puzzled: why did Marsans withdraw from the bid? It seemed like the "natural" thing for them to take over Spanair. Join Spanair's EU network with Air Comet's long-haul, and create a strong competitor to IB. I wonder what went wrong in the negotiations, or what conditions SAS was setting.

As for IB: what would they gain from this? More MD-80s to replace, some 717s to get rid of, and the trouble of pulling Spanair out of Star. Spanair's route structure doesn't really add any value to IB either. The only thing they would achieve is to eliminate a competitor. And even then, the MAD-BCN high speed rail was probably gonna kill JK anyway. Or maybe they want to merge Spanair into Clickair, make one big Spanish LCC, and kill Vueling?

Either way, if I were IB, I'd be spending my money in buying some mid-size EU carrier to gain critical mass against AF-KL-AZ and LH-LX, not in strengthening my position in a domestic market that I already control very well.

Then again, I wonder what the anti-trust authorities have to say to this - Air Europa would not have the size to compete against IB+JK...


User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3798 times:



Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 4):
No. They sold it some months ago.

Could you enlighten me with any link or source? I can't find any news about it.

Thanks.

Gaston - The MD11junkie



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3706 times:

Nevermind, GatoVolador.

In his (deleted) post, SKY1 already showed me that I was wrong. Thanks for the new information!



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3679 times:



Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
No need for the harsh, idiotic language

Before there was not need to use the verb "to enlighten" either.

It did sound like sarcastic, just like if you were doubting about the GatoVolador's statement. That was the main reason for my answer towards you.

Gaston, maybe yourself don't realize, but many times you have a way very irritating to say things.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 9):
I was asking politely.

No. A polite way to ask is incompatible if you use the verb "to enlighten". It's a real "cachondeo"

By the way ....Marsans didn't sell that 5% to SAS, but it was done by Gonzalo Pascual and Gerardo Díaz.



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3658 times:

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 9):
Before there was not need to use the verb "to enlighten" either.

Enlighten is an expression, put a light in my path so I can see where I'm going. Nothing wrong with it, at least for me. Incorrect use of it, is not my problem. I did not mean any sarcastic or any kind of disrespectful remarks, like yours.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 9):
It did sound like sarcastic, just like if you were doubting about the GatoVolador's statement. That was the main reason for my answer towards you.

With any of my sarcastic comments, there would be a smiley attached. That question was serious. I'd appreciate it if you'd ask first or suggest deletion, instead of bursting.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 9):
Gaston, maybe yourself don't realize, but many times you have a way very irritating to say things

Just like you or anyone else does. If you don't like the way I express myself, you can skip my posts.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 9):
No. A polite way to ask is incompatible if you use the verb "to enlighten". It's a real "cachondeo"

See above.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 9):
By the way ....Marsans didn't sell that 5% to SAS, but it was done by Gonzalo Pascual and Gerardo Díaz.

Yes, thanks - from the links in your previous post I know.

Gaston - The MD11junkie

[Edited 2008-02-14 12:04:13]

[Edited 2008-02-14 12:15:16]


There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3598 times:



Quoting R2rho (Reply 6):
Then again, I wonder what the anti-trust authorities have to say to this - Air Europa would not have the size to compete against IB+JK...

Don't worry by UX, they're doing a very well work.

UX is also taking advantage if IB buys (and waste away) JK as they will have less competition. Hidalgo (Globalia-UX) had a interview with F. Conte (Iberia CEO) where he was reported about the intention of Iberia towards Spanair. The relationship between Iberia and Hidalgo is better than good.

With a Spanair neutralized and controlled by IB, UX will be happy as A7 will have not the efficient feeder who Spanair is.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 10):
If you don't like the way I express myself, you can skip my posts

No, I don't want skip your posts. Sometimes you provide useful points of view, but the sarcastic load penalizes your MTOW  Wink



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3032 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3581 times:

Interesting move by Iberia, and will increase there dominance as a national carrier to Spain... Could this cause problems with the EU's Antitrust commission, as it will significantly increase the amount of domestic routes flown by one carrier and reducing competition...

It will also mean Star Alliance has no carrier in Spain, but I do not think Spanair have a very large role in this alliance...


User currently offlineBx737 From Ireland, joined Sep 2001, 679 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3539 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
..in a move that most likely will run into EEC anti-trus issues

I would have to agree. In Ireland the take over of Aer Lingus by Ryanair was blocked by the EU on competition grounds. I have a passing interest in Spanish aviation and I would have to say that I don't believe a take over of JK by IB would be good, JK is one of the two big independent carriers in Spain. I would have thought that a take over by the Grupo Marsans would have seemed more logical. It seemed to be the way they were thinking with the massive Airbus order of last year, I assumed that bearing in mind the rumours of the merger between Air Comet and JK that the A320 part of the order was to replace JKs MD80s.


User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3520 times:



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 12):
Interesting move by Iberia, and will increase there dominance as a national carrier to Spain... Could this cause problems with the EU's Antitrust commission

The key on this whole matter, is not Spanair itself ...but it's subtract pax in connection for Air Comet (Marsans group) in their South American expansion. It's interesting for both, IB and UX.

Nowadays Spanair is a minor, relavant player.



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3442 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
likely will run into EEC anti-trus issues.

Not that likely. Spanair is comparable to IB in for some domestic routes. International is close to non-existent so no EEC should be invloved, only Spanish authorities


User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3442 times:



Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 5):
Well if iberia do manage to buy Spanair they will remove alot of competetion in Spain and cannot see
how that is good for anyone apart from iberia....

Indeed!

That's why I'd like this purchase not to happen.

However, I'd like to point out some ideas:

1st) Iberia didn't bid for Spanair yet. Tomorrow will be the last day to send an offer to SAS, and today the board of Iberia authorised the CEO and Chairman to bid if he considers that it is a good idea. Of course, we all think that "authorisation" means the "go ahead" (as National rent-a-car would say, "Green means GO!"), but it could be just a strategy to frustrate the plans of other competitors.

2nd) We will have to wait until the dossier is sent and the information is given to the market. As this point of time we don't have any information at all, apart from the participation of Gestair. We don't know what the future of Spanair will be. Some newspapers said during the last weeks that Iberia was in talks with other competitors (Air Europa, Star Alliance...) to divide Spanair and sell it back, maybe keeping something. It seems that these plans are today less realistic that some days before, but anyway, we cannot discard the possibility that Spanair is splitted and sold, so used to increase the size of other non-Iberia airlines. (However, Iberia prefers Spanair being shared by some competitors that facing a strong and unitary competitor.)

3rd) Regarding the lack of competition, that's for sure but... I'm not sure that this plot will work. I'm not supporting the purchase, but consider what IB could say to the authorities:

- The market shows very low yields, and when everybody is loosing money, mergers tend to be accepted (see the pay-per-view TV business when Via Digital and Canal Satelite Digital merged) ==> Spanair lost 31M€; Vueling more than 50M€; Clickair will post a "worse than forecasted in the business plan - meaning that the break-even point is delayed one year - but not dramatic" loss; Air Europa is so-so (no exact data because Globalia is not public, but anyway, from the words of Globalia, they had very low profits or even losses), LagunAir still in red numbers, Pla-za and Pyrenair loosing money, and some airlines out of the business (Air Asturias, Rioja Airlines, Air Madrid, former Air Plus Comet...). Only Iberia (still unknown but +150-200M€) and Air Nostrum (15M€, 4M€ less than last year) are posting positive results (out of the scheduled carriers.)

- Spain is by far one of the most competitive airline markets in Europe. Iberia currently has a 35% of the market share (Iberia + Air Nostrum, not counting Clickair... but Clickair is not marketed as IB). In Portugal, TAP has the 100% of the domestic market. In France, AF has the 90%. In Germany, LH is above the 65%. Iberia + Air Nostrum + Spanair would be a 60%.

- Some industrial analysis show that yields will still decrease in the following months, and competition will be even harder. ABN Amro said to SAS that they couldn't expect a lot with Spanair, because they were forecasting a turbulent flight to this carrier. Some other analysis show that Vueling will have also troubles.

- Ryanair & EasyJet are growing and will continue to do it. In 2009, Barcelona will open the new terminal and free space will be available, as it happened in Madrid. The current carriers need to cover all this capacity if they don't want others to control the market. (See how IB created Clickair in order to massively move aircrafts to MAD from BCN and other smaller cities. Now the same will happen to BCN.). EasyJet could open a new base in BCN. Ryanair recently announced its 5th base (Reus, 100km away from BCN in the south, which was already served through Gerona, 100km away from BCN in the north). Malaga will be the next. Valencia and Alicante are already there. (Scaring, isn't it?). Ryanair wants to carry 12M passengers out of the Spanish airports by 2012. This needs a reaction.

- ... and what about the high speed train? The AVE is to arrive to BCN by the end of this month. The AVE network is expanding (Barcelona, Malaga, Seville, Valladolid,...), and now it should be considered as another carrier directly competing with airlines. Just see what happened in the banking business: 10-15 years ago, there was in Spain 7 big-sized banks (I'm not counting the saving banks or "cajas"). They were Santander, Central, Hispanoamericano, Bilbao Vizcaya, Argentaria, Atlántico and Banesto. A then, a HUGE number of very small banks: Urquijo, Banca Jover, Banco Pastor, Banca March, Banco Guipuzcoano, and more and more. In less than 10 years, they all became Santander on one side and BBVA on the other side. I remember that when BBV and Argentaria merged, a journalist was interviewing Mr Ybarra (BBV) and Mr. Gonzalez (Argentaria and current BBVA chairman) and he asked how would they justify a merger that would lead Spain to a duopoly. I remember Mr. Gonzalez saying that since the market was becoming European (actually, the "margermania" started with the incorporation of Spain in the EU in 1986) more size was needed if we wanted the Spanish banks to become competitive. He added that even if in Spain only two big banks (and smaller banks on the other side) would remain, the saving banks (cajas) had one half of the market, so there was no risk of monopolization. Actually, it happened. And... couldn't we consider that in the near future the AVE will get the 50% of the market share of the domestic point-to-point flights? What is more, Renfe will face competition once in the railway market when the liberalisation process in the EU ends, so, not only Renfe will compete against the airlines, but also Renfe against its own competitors. Having a monopoly is difficult.

- Why would the authorities ban IB to buy Spanair? The EU is supporting the idea of three big players in Europe and two LCCs. Do you want more oligopoly power than that? Even more, the authorities in the EU agreed the authorise the following mergers: (a) TAP and Portugalia, leading to a monopoly in Portugal; (b) EasyJet and GB Airways, getting the control of the flights to the sunny countries from LGW; (c) Air Berlin-LTU-Condor-(smaller brands), almost cancelling competition in the Balearic Islands - Germany market; (d) Air France buying airlines like a crazy (KLM, Alitalia, a regional British carrier, some regional French carriers, and targeting LOT/CSA - and even IB - and Asian carriers); (e) Airlines asking for ATI in the Europe-US market (alliances setting prices rather than competition among carriers of the same alliance).

- We still don't know, but for sure IB will sell a part of Spanair and/or give up a bunch of strategic slots.

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 5):
What would happen with all the charter work that Spanair does?

It won't disappear. It will be done by Spanair/Iberia, or transferred to Gestair Airlines, or sold to a third party, or whatever, but flights will remain if they are profitable.

By the way... Spanair reduced a lot the charter activity in the last years! I think that it's not that important in Spanair's business.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 6):
Is this confirmed officially or still a rumor?

IB informed the market through the Spanish SEC (CNMV). However, as I said, it's just an authorisation. But... time ends up by tomorrow! So... I guess tonight many employees will be working at IB's headquarters.  Wink

Quoting R2rho (Reply 6):
And is this just IB+Gestair or did Air Nostrum get in there as well?

It's IB+Gestair. Nefinsa (the owner of Air Nostrum) said that they would make an independent bid. However, no more news.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 6):
I'm puzzled: why did Marsans withdraw from the bid?

1st) The key factor is that their dream is getting more and more difficult since the unions of AR are stopping the activity of AR. On top of that, Marsans said to "close friends" that the government of Argentina is co-operating with the unions to show Marsans the door of Argentina. Apparently, the secretary of transports of Argentina is asking the unions to hit Marsans because Argentina wants their national carrier back to the Argentinian government. (Something similar happened to Repsol YPF, that now is opening YPF to Argentinian investors because of the government pushing Repsol to do that.)

As Spanair only is interesting to Marsans as a feeder for Air Comet - Aerolineas Argentinas flights over the Atlantic, if Marsans withdraws Aerolineas (which is not sure, but it could happen), Marsans don't want Spanair if they are not sure that they have Aerolineas and Air Comet.

However... Marsans has the right to buy by paying the same amount as the best offer. Since IB is now the only possible bidder (last-minute bidders could come tomorrow), it seems that they could lower the price. So, as early as next Saturday, Marsans will be able to take Spanair by paying the same amount of the highest bid (let's say, IB). So, Marsans could (I'm not sure, but it could be that) have retired the bid just to make the IB's bid price go down and then exercise their option.

Iberia has now to choose the correct price. A too low price could make Marsans exercise the option (and this is not positive, since they want Marsans to pay the highest possible price), and a too high price would be a bad for IB, since Spanair has a large debt to be paid.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 6):
As for IB: what would they gain from this?

If I knew this, I wouldn't be here.  Smile

Really, Spanair seems to be a bad deal. The only positive things are that they could take their so-called "Puente a Madrid" (not really an air shuttle, because no open tickets are allowed), they block Marsans, and they block any other possible competitor willing to buy Spanair.

I'd like to see if IB is really putting money or just letting Gestair to do that. We shouldn't discard a "buy, split, and sell back" operation.

Also I'd bet that IB is thinking in a very cheap Spanair. (I'm saying this because IB forecasted a meeting of the board next saturday to discuss the Spanair issue, and as soon as Marsans left Spanair, they met and authorised Conte to bid. I think that Spanair smells cheap now that they natural bidder said "bye, bye, Spanair"). On top of this, the costs of buying Spanair could be recovered over: (a) Gestair participation; (b) some Spanair assets being sold; (c) important cost savings (Merril Lynch said to IB that they could save money by buying Spanair, particularly in the fuel side.... but I don't understand this, as Spanair has a weaker hedging policy and MDs are not fuel efficient!); and (d) fares increase and better profits?

Quoting R2rho (Reply 6):
Either way, if I were IB, I'd be spending my money in buying some mid-size EU carrier to gain critical mass against AF-KL-AZ and LH-LX, not in strengthening my position in a domestic market that I already control very well.

I agree. By the way... not that mid-capitalised. According to some forecasts, BA will be very cheap in a few months. Remember that last Chairman wished to buy BA in 2002, when their stock was at a very low price, but BA blocked the decision. What if it happened once again? (I don't see Caja Madrid supporting this, but I'd like it!)

But I also say that normally Iberia takes tough decisions that are not generally understood but many years after you see that all had a reason. I wonder why they really want Spanair.


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3376 times:

It would be a disaster to wipe out the competition virtually. Also one could argue IB is an LCC, at least it acts like one, intra Europe at any rate.

User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3353 times:



Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 16):
I wonder why they really want Spanair.

See above, reply 14.

And the end, it is a feeder issue. No more.

This even could to condition the Marsans order for the A-380's. Who knows. I believe this is not a minor matter for Marsans.



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3296 times:



Quoting SKY1 (Reply 18):
And the end, it is a feeder issue. No more.

For sure. If Marsans never had threatened IB in the long range, they would have probably skipped the sale of Spanair.

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 18):
This even could to condition the Marsans order for the A-380's. Who knows. I believe this is not a minor matter for Marsans.

I agree. I even wonder if Marsans will keep Air Comet if they loose Aerolineas and Spanair. I don't know very well how Air Comet works, but in the past former Air Plus Comet had serious liquidity problems (some aircrafts suffered an embargo). Will Air Comet by itself be able to generate profits, or is Air Comet just another element of the Marsans empire? In other words, does Air Comet makes sense if they loosed Spanair and Aerolineas?

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 17):
It would be a disaster to wipe out the competition virtually.

Less competition is always worse for all of us (consumers), but also through mergers is how the industries keep going on, expanding, getting more efficient, etc. etc. If Ryanair is Ryanair is because they have a European size (and nobody else can really compete with them) that allows them to benefit from large economies of scale.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 17):
Also one could argue IB is an LCC, at least it acts like one, intra Europe at any rate.

I disagree. IB's business class (domestic and European) product is quite competitive and pleasant, and it getting better and better scores. As a sample, I'd ask you to read this, and you'll see how people from London value IB's business class. (And Londoners are, by far, the most exigent customers in Europe, as they really have in mind a very particular product.)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=786781&highlight=

With respect to tourist class, IB is offering what the market and the competitive environment demands. Sometimes consumers think that if there is a buy-on-board product, then you fly a low cost. Not at all. Many markets (including Spain, but also many others, from Scandinavia to Belgium) have evolved to a pay a you go model.

The low cost concept is not just free food. IB is not a LCC because the aircrafts don't make quick rotations, because they are cleaned after each trip, because they carry cargo, they handle connecting passengers, because IB is part of OneWorld and short-haul is the first part of long-haul, because there are VIP facilities and services, because IB has a FF program, because IB spends lots of money paying hotels to the crews overnighting at the regions/Europe, because the shedules are differently set than in a LCC (see how Clickair sets the timetable and see how IB does it, and see the difference), because IB bears the costs of transporting children flying alone, because there are frills (candies to kids, I got a free chocolate in my last MAD-BCN flight, free newspapers in the morning, free magazine, no baggage surcharge, no credit card surcharge), they bear the costs of a network of sales offices, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Nevertheless, I don't see your point. What if IB was a LCC? I mean... the authorities won't discriminate among full service airlines and LCC. What matters if how many frequencies does a given carrier dominates in a given route compared to their peers.

As many many many business travellers are flying Vueling, EasyJet, Clickair, etc., separating LCC and full service carriers don't make any sense in the measurement of competitiveness. In a less than 90 flight, the average passenger is thinking in how cheap the ticket is, and not who operates the flight. In other words, the majority of customers switch constantly from a LCC to a full service airline. That's why the domestic market has to be seen as a whole, and not as two markets (LCC and traditional carriers).

Just a number: in 2007, Spanair was supposed to swap IB's business class travellers out of the non-MAD flights (as Clickair was in charge of the former IB network). One could think that Spanair should have increased income because of the "business class" effect. However, the figure was that in 2007, Spanair only increased income by 1%. Why? Well, because the demand is so much elastic that even business passengers are driving their cash generation ratio down. The idea is that if they don't get cheap business class fares, they just switch to any other carrier (Vueling or Clickair) and they are done.

Now, most of the business class passengers from Spanair don't even pay a Business Avant ticket, but rather an "Option Avant", which is economy with a surcharge of 30€ that allows you to get a free sandwich and puts some flexibility in your ticket. (... hello? hello? Clickair lets you change your ticket by 20€ and with 10€ you get a breakfast menu).

As you see, the frontier between LCCs and legacy carriers is very weak!


User currently offlineCopenhagenboy From Denmark, joined Sep 2001, 598 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

well, SAS is on the Nordic Stock Exhange, and there have be no announsment from them. They have to do that if they are selling thier stocks in Spanair, So I doubt anything is cloce to a deal. I think they will wait, untill they can get a better price of Spaniar. Maybe 'I am wrong but keep calm. I just hope they will stay in Star and still have great cooperations with SAS, Lufthansa and the other * members

User currently offlineMD11junkie From Argentina, joined May 2005, 3148 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3248 times:



Quoting SKY1 (Reply 18):
This even could to condition the Marsans order for the A-380's. Who knows. I believe this is not a minor matter for Marsans.

Well, this is true, considering that Spanair could've been used as a feeder to A7 international flights, however I do think it gives Marsans the chance to increase their market participation using what will be the (obvious) reduction of Spanair flights when (if) IB takes over it.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 17):
Also one could argue IB is an LCC

Internationally at least.  Wink  duck   flamed 



There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3122 times:



Quoting Copenhagenboy (Reply 20):
well, SAS is on the Nordic Stock Exhange, and there have be no announsment from them. They have to do that if they are selling thier stocks in Spanair, So I doubt anything is cloce to a deal. I think they will wait, untill they can get a better price of Spaniar.

Still no deal because today SAS is still receiving offers, and by the way, IB has still not submitted its own dossier.

It will be from tomorrow that SAS will study the dossiers collected and decide who wins Spanair. Until this moment, they will not inform the market, as there is no decision taken.

However, since Marsans lost (in principle) the interest in Spanair and Nefinsa (Air Nostrum) said that they won't place a bid, it seems that only IB will participate in the sale.

Quoting Copenhagenboy (Reply 20):
Maybe 'I am wrong but keep calm.

I agree. Let's see if IB finally sends the proposal to buy Spanair or not, and let's see if SAS selects IB and if the authorities allow IB to buy its competitor.

Remember than in 2000, Air Europa and Iberia signed an agreement to merge. However, at the end it never happened, as the unions refused to accept the integration of Air Europa pilots and FAs.


User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5085 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2933 times:

Should the bid succeed, will this mean a new addition to OneWorld?


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineAisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 763 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2902 times:



Quoting JAL (Reply 23):
Should the bid succeed, will this mean a new addition to OneWorld?

Not likely. I don't think IB would be keen on operating under another brand. The planes and crew would be integrated into IB and thus oneworld.

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 19):
As you see, the frontier between LCCs and legacy carriers is very weak!

I couldn't agree more. Most people doen't even know the definition of a LCC. The "Low Cost" stands for the costs involved for the company to operate and not the cost of the final user ticket. That's the price or the fare.
Most (if not 100%) airlines now tend to have the lower costs possible no matter the services provided to their passengers. They try to cut costs everywhere possible even if they are one of the so-called legacies.


25 GatoVolador : Not really. This issue was discussed between SEPLA-Iberia and Iberia managers in the last weeks, before the authorisation of the board. It seems that
26 R2rho : So, if Marsans does not bid for JK as was expected, and may end up losing AR, then where will their huge Airbus order go? Such an order would only mak
27 MD11junkie : Has that order been firmed? Or is it still an MoU?
28 R2rho : I read in a press clipping today that Gadair (who's are they???) are going to bid for Spanair together with investors from Canada and Abu Dhabi. This
29 Post contains images GatoVolador : Gadair is a freakish airline with bad reputation among the employees of the industry. They were supposed to become a new intercontinental airline wit
30 GatoVolador : Time is already up. SAS closed the period to receive offers last Saturday.
31 R2rho : Thanks for the input, GatoVolador. Those Gadair guys sound really spooky. So the catalan regional government could maye make a 'pact with the devil' (
32 Post contains links Beaucaire : http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...tilitiesNews/idUSL2048306620080220 what's the Portugese airline mentioned in this article doing in this bid ???
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AF-KLM: Bid For Iberia In March posted Mon Nov 26 2007 03:42:52 by LifelinerOne
First Bid For Iberia -LH Out Of The Race? posted Thu Nov 15 2007 10:43:10 by Beaucaire
BA Backed Bid For Iberia Imminent posted Thu Nov 8 2007 05:04:03 by Scouseflyer
Air France - KLM Preparing Bid For Iberia posted Wed Sep 26 2007 10:39:36 by PH-BFA
Iberia & Lufthansa Lost Bid For Dominicana Airline posted Fri Nov 30 2001 17:03:22 by CaboVerde
Cessna Wins Bid For Columbia Aircraft posted Tue Nov 27 2007 19:41:47 by CitationJet
DAE Capital Places Order For 200 Planes. posted Mon Nov 12 2007 07:41:00 by WINGS
LCY Could Bid For LGW posted Tue Nov 6 2007 07:46:52 by USADreamliner
BA To Bid For IB posted Sun Nov 4 2007 02:46:10 by FLVILLA
FL Merger Bid For YX - How Much Did It Cost? posted Tue Oct 9 2007 17:46:15 by DeltaDAWG