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TUI With No Long Haul Aircraft  
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

I find it quite amazing that the large German TUI does not have an aircraft for long hauls, particularly considering the decline in short haul and an increase in long haul. Their british counterpart Thomson has 767s for Carribbean routes, for example.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4286 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
I find it quite amazing that the large German TUI does not have an aircraft for long hauls, particularly considering the decline in short haul and an increase in long haul

Tuifly will get likely get some 787s out of the order for 11 aircraft.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

They need them desperate and now. Couldnt Jetair or Thomson borrow them a 763. It is ridiculous that the German arm has no widebody for long haul yet the Belgium arm, Dutch arm, British arm do!

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4234 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 2):
It is ridiculous that the German arm has no widebody for long haul yet the Belgium arm, Dutch arm, British arm do!

They have phased out the A310s for a reason also LT and DE were big competitioners.
It will be interesting to see if the "new" Tuiwings" or "Germanfly" will get longhaul aircraft as this would mean 787s in LHs fleet  Smile .



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2085 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Years ago as Hapag Lloyd, they did lose the long haul competition to LTU and Condor.

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4028 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 2):
It is ridiculous that the German arm has no widebody for long haul yet the Belgium arm, Dutch arm, British arm do!

Don't forget Corsair-Fly in France with 744's.
It's part of the long lasting inconsistent strategy within the TUI group and the permanent mess involving re-paints,re-naming and changes of strategies each year.I would have thought the market in Germany is big enough to support Long-range aircraft under TUI banner -but then -who knows,maybe the 787's ordered by TUI will fly under Germanwings painting...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3011 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4003 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 1):

Tuifly will get likely get some 787s out of the order for 11 aircraft.

How can they?

Those 787's are destined to go to the UK ThomsonFly fleet, to replace the 763's... That is only just enough to replace those, let alone allowing for any expansion in the fleet!?

The long haul market is likely to be the only place the charter airline industry is going to see any growth in the coming years!


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

Exactly my point, long haul is where tour ops and their airlines are concentrating their efforts yet here is the large TUI germany without a single long haul aircraft!!

User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2174 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3948 times:
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Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 4):
Years ago as Hapag Lloyd, they did lose the long haul competition to LTU and Condor.

I visited Condor's website the other day, and their B767-300 looks really nice with "only" 269 seats. I'll bet people demand something similar if they are to fly with the competition? Britannia's 325-seat (or was it even more?) 8-abreast B763s must be a nightmare in comparison...



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

They are. I wish Uk charter arms would bring themselves into line with their European counterparts. I cannot believe TUI is ignoring the long haul market in Germany at present.

User currently offlineRdwootty From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 902 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

just as an aside some of the TUI aircraft in UK have been sold to Silverjet!! Tuifly(Thomsonfly tuiflug and anyother name do not know what they want. In the UK they have spent a lot of money in creating new routes for the low cost carrier and closing them down

User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3807 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 2):
They need them desperate and now.

Onto what routes should they be employed ?

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):
I cannot believe TUI is ignoring the long haul market in Germany at present.

HF's longhaul ops were making no profit. The A310's were lacking the range to fly into the Carribean nonstop especially during winter with stops I have experienced were in SNN and NTE. Consequently those routes were axed.

X3 is scheduled to be merged with 4U.
And in case that DE's longhaul ops might not be taken over by AB, it is unclear if there is a healthy market for 3 longhaul (charter) airlines in Germany.
Also the competiotion from scheduled airlines needs to be taken into account. Andthese airlines usually offer daily flights ...
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3805 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):
They are. I wish Uk charter arms would bring themselves into line with their European counterparts. I cannot believe TUI is ignoring the long haul market in Germany at present.

Maybe and this is just a maybe, they are going after business where they can make a profit and not chasing business that is not going to offer a big return to them, i.e. long haul aircraft. And since your in the UK why is this a problem for ya?



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineAidoair From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3782 times:

Dont forget that this order for 11 787 aircraft mentioned for the TUI group is now also along side an order made by First Choice Airways which is now part of TUI travel UK so with 23 longhaul aircraft on order in toal we will most likely see the FCA order to be focused on the UK operations and the orginal TUI order of 1 aircraft for the various other group wide airlines possiby including the UK arm as well seeing as though at the minute that is where there biggest increase for demand in the longhaul market is forcasted...

[Edited 2008-02-15 13:29:37]

User currently offlineEgmcman From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 898 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):
They are. I wish Uk charter arms would bring themselves into line with their European counterparts. I cannot believe TUI is ignoring the long haul market in Germany at present.

Holiday packages in Germany are likely to be more expensive than what the British holiday maker would pay. You get what you pay for at the end of day.

[Edited 2008-02-15 13:37:59]

User currently offlineBalboy From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2000, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3694 times:



Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 8):
I visited Condor's website the other day, and their B767-300 looks really nice with "only" 269 seats. I'll bet people demand something similar if they are to fly with the competition? Britannia's 325-seat (or was it even more?) 8-abreast B763s must be a nightmare in comparison...



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 9):
They are. I wish Uk charter arms would bring themselves into line with their European counterparts. I cannot believe TUI is ignoring the long haul market

Britannia( Thomsonfly ) Have 283 seats on the 763's, First choice even less, so they have ' brought themselves inline'. First choice have not only brought themselves ' inline ' but exceeded all other european airlines, including scheduled, for personal space in the economy cabin. You know that orion737!

TUI are ' ignoring the longhaul market in Europe ' ( germany ) , because that was their business plan at the time. This may change.


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3524 times:

With all the LCC business on traditional holiday airlines, it seems to make sense for tour ops to focus on Carribbean destinations, particularly in Winter, this is where the long haul aircraft is needed, right away save contracting the competition.

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3508 times:



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 6):
Tuifly will get likely get some 787s out of the order for 11 aircraft.


How can they?

I think the plan was that 2 will go to Tuifly Germany and the others to airlines in UK, Belgium etc...

With the merger of Tuifly and Germanwings this may have become obsolete and interesting is what will happen now.
I would love to see the new airline using 787s and given the fact that the new airline is supposed to compete with AB this is very likely. A second 787 operator in Germany would be great !!



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

A 767 wouldnt go a miss until they can get a 787. They are missing out on valuable long haul utilisation in Winter to carribbean, Phuket, Kenya, orlando etc etc.

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9768 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2837 times:



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 6):
Those 787's are destined to go to the UK ThomsonFly fleet, to replace the 763's...

Arkefly will also get 3 787s from the same order so I assume not all are destined for Thomsonfly. It is a group order so those 11 787s can go to any TUI airline. I think they do need more 787s to supply all the group airlines.

A388


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

Funny how the French, Dutch, british, belgian and Swedish arms have long hauls and fly many long hauls in winter yet the largest maket Germany has no TUI long haul flights.

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9768 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2790 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 20):
Funny how the French, Dutch, british, belgian and Swedish arms have long hauls and fly many long hauls in winter yet the largest maket Germany has no TUI long haul flights.

The only reason I can think of is what someone already mentioned here, because of the competition in Germany in the charter market it might not be worth the investment. Both LTU (Air Berlin) and Condor (Thomas Cook) are very strong brands in Germany. How strong is the TUI brand in Germany on the longhaul charter market?

A388


User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

Non existent isnt it?? TUI dont have one single long haul aircraft. Unless they offer packages using other carriers which seems pretty silly and shows a need for their own long haul aircraft.

Also much competition in UK, TCX, MON, FCA but still TUI is concentrating efforts on long haul, cant understand why not in germany.


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2721 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Reply 22):
TUI dont have one single long haul aircraft. Unless they offer packages using other carriers which seems pretty silly and shows a need for their own long haul aircraft.

Face it: Vertical integration in TUI Germany's business has failed.
Even the short- to medium haul airline business (X3) has lost its reputation and thus its share of the market.
The combined company that is supposed to amalgamate X3, 4U and EW will be in no position to fly longhauls at shirt notice.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 20):
Funny how the French, Dutch, british, belgian and Swedish arms have long hauls

France, The Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden: In these countries you need to serve only one or two airports with longhaul flights; a few more airports in the U.K..
But with Germany not being centralized, any longhaul charter carrier will need to fly out of 4 to 5 airports minimum (FRA, MUC, CGN/DUS, BER, HAM). Alternatively, there needs to be feeder flights into a central departure airport - but there hardly are any suitable intra-german feeder flights that are NOT LH or AB.

In the end it is cheaper and probably more secure for TUI (Germany) to buy seats (from LT/AB or DE - and quite a lot scheduled carriers) than to take the risk to fly its own plane half empty.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineDebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2415 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2663 times:



Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
I find it quite amazing that the large German TUI does not have an aircraft for long hauls, particularly considering the decline in short haul and an increase in long haul.

Well, very very difficult....

If you do a re-search you will find out, that TUIfly Germany announced long-houl flights in spring 2007 for Puerto Plata, Punta Cana, Varadero and Cancun. Some sources even suggested a start during THIS 2007/2008 winter-season (yeah right!). I am still waiting for the 3 "already aquired" B767...

Quoting HT (Reply 11):
HF's longhaul ops were making no profit. The A310's were lacking the range to fly into the Carribean nonstop especially during winter with stops I have experienced were in SNN and NTE. Consequently those routes were axed.

Well, stupid decision from Hapag-Lloyd and TUI and one of the many reasons I still hate TUIfly today! The A310's were uneconomical, correct! But nobody is talking about Hapag-Lloyd's/TUI's B767-300ER long-range fleet and crew. If you ask yourself, WTF, when did HF op. the B767 the answer is very, very simple.
Back in the '90s TUI went for shopping and took over Thomson Travel UK incl. BRITANNIA AIRWAYS and Britannia Airways DEUTSCHLAND. So TUI actually took over a perfect working long haul carrier, but decided to dump the B767's in favour for A310's and shelved all intercontinental flights, leaving BN's crew unemployed...  banghead   banghead 
And now, they reverse back to the B767 spending money for very used B767's, a new licence and crew training! How stupid a company can be...  vomit 

Quoting HT (Reply 23):
But with Germany not being centralized, any longhaul charter carrier will need to fly out of 4 to 5 airports minimum (FRA, MUC, CGN/DUS, BER, HAM).

THIS is not correct! If you have read the original plan, published last year, X3 announced a hub-and-spoke system in CGN- using existing flights from HAM/TXL/FMM in a first wave (plus their European-routes as feeder-network). plus in addition a base in HAJ (due to the lack of long-houl non-stop flights from north Germany).


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 23
Reply 25, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2643 times:



Quoting Debonair (Reply 24):
If you have read the original plan, published last year, X3 announced a hub-and-spoke system in CGN- using existing flights from HAM/TXL/FMM in a first wave (plus their European-routes as feeder-network). plus in addition a base in HAJ (due to the lack of long-houl non-stop flights from north Germany).

I was not aware of such plan.
But from today's prespective I doubt that such a plan will come into fruitition ...

HF's longhauls out of HAJ were limited and not very successful. New York (I can't recall if it was JFK or EWR), PUJ & POP via MUC, MBA (Mombasa, Kenya) come to my mind.
DE had a limited longhaul hub for one winter in the late 1990's but without success (at least it got me from HAJ via TER to CUN and back using a B752).
DE-flights in a B752 to MBA had range problems on the return on both occasions I used them. Both times we were required to make an unscheduled fuelstop at NUE.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
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