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IND-Europe Coming? Rumor  
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

While headed out on my trip to Germany on Thursday I heard a rumor that some type of Europe service was coming to IND. The when and who wasn't know. I was told the US Customs was hiring to handle the demand of the Europe flight. That is pretty much all I know about it. I did do some digging and found that Customs and Border Protection is hiring a human resources specialist with a duty of recruiting and placement for Indianapolis. That job listing closed yesterday. So there may be merit to the rumor. Does anyone know anything about this? Would you hire customs and border agents for cargo service? Would this be passenger service?


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3703 times:

I could see NW to AMS, but otherwise I have a feeling the Customs official will be for Canadian flights. You never know, at least 40 US airports have some scheduled TATL service.


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User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3686 times:



Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
While headed out on my trip to Germany on Thursday I heard a rumor that some type of Europe service was coming to IND. The when and who wasn't know. I was told the US Customs was hiring to handle the demand of the Europe flight. That is pretty much all I know about it. I did do some digging and found that Customs and Border Protection is hiring a human resources specialist with a duty of recruiting and placement for Indianapolis. That job listing closed yesterday. So there may be merit to the rumor. Does anyone know anything about this? Would you hire customs and border agents for cargo service? Would this be passenger service?

With the merger looming over NW, this hardly seems like the opportune time to launch IND-AMS. It is a possibility, however. After NW starting AMS out of Portland, I am hesitant to ever rule IND out of the conversation with a 752 flying the route. Anything larger would be suicide, IMO.

Most heartland markets (IND included) that are leisure traffic based have a great deal of trouble generating the high yield traffic that European travel is known for. Its possible that Indianapolis has an agreement in place with some local companies to help subsidize AMS, but without those I have my doubts about the potential for success.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

I'm not sure Canadian flights have to clear customs here.

BTW I just had my first 757 TATL experience (DTW-DUS). In flight was nothing special. The seating and comfort is no better in my opinion than any other jet. Boarding seemed to take a while. I think some of that was NW not cracking down on what people tried to carry on. The bins were stuffed pretty fast with big bags. So as people tried to cram more in the bins it really slowed down boarding. I was on pretty fast because of where my row was but I could see the line in the aisle not going anywhere for a while. Getting off the plane took a bit as well because of all the junk people carried on board.

Clearing customs was a breeze and baggage claim went pretty fast. That is an obviously plus when dealing with the smaller jets.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3670 times:



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 2):
Its possible that Indianapolis has an agreement in place with some local companies to help subsidize AMS, but without those I have my doubts about the potential for success.

The deal could get subsidized in the form of cheaper gate leases at the new terminal.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4136 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3463 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 4):
The deal could get subsidized in the form of cheaper gate leases at the new terminal.

PIT is so desperate to get direct Europe service back that they will give away gates to carriers for free at this point.

Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
I did do some digging and found that Customs and Border Protection is hiring a human resources specialist with a duty of recruiting and placement for Indianapolis.

That has already happened here at SLC. With DL getting SLC-CDG going in June, there is now speculation SLC could even see more in a post DL/NW merger such as AMS, LGW and maybe even FRA on the near horizon. NRT could only be less than a decade off as well.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineFlyNTE From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

New U.S.-Europe flights are usually announced in the fall (Sept/Oct) and begin in the spring (March/June) - the summer schedule. They need this time to sell tickets, set up new stations (if necessary), etc., and want to start the route during the time of the year with the best chance of success.... summer.

Although there have been a few routes started outside of this pattern... One that comes to mind is CO's CLE-CDG annoucment... It was announced in September 2006 with a start date of spring 2008 - 18 months later. But it's still a summer schedule start.

Start dates may be a simplistic way to approach the question... but it's what came to my mind. I seriously doubt there is an imminent annoucement regarding IND-Europe... Unless they're going to annouce a start date of spring 2009 now and give extra time to generate ticket sales.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3410 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 5):
That has already happened here at SLC. With DL getting SLC-CDG going in June, there is now speculation SLC could even see more in a post DL/NW merger such as AMS, LGW and maybe even FRA on the near horizon. NRT could only be less than a decade off as well.

With a NW merger I can see SLC-AMS, but not the rest. There is a large part of the DL network that cannot access NRT, but with a NW merger that is solved with LAX, SFO, PDX and SEA. I cant see SLC working real well with 4 existing gateways to NRT so close to SLC. Maybe as onestop thru flight from SLC.


I dont see FRA working well. As a rule airlines tend to do poorly in other alliance hubs. From such a marginal hub as SLC, I cant see FRA working, especially with excellent service from FRA to DEN, LAX, SFO, PDX, etc....LHR might work, but lets see how CDG does before we expand SLC-Europe. If CDG doesnt work, nothing else will.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

It amazes be just how many times this subject is brought up by the OP. It is not like field of dreams, "build it and they will come". Look at PIT for one. Just because you have a new terminal does not mean all of Europe is suddenly going to start offering flights to IND.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3316 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 8):
Just because you have a new terminal does not mean all of Europe is suddenly going to start offering flights to IND.

But if you don't have it they can't come. And that still doesn't explain the comment about Customs hiring for a Europe flight and now the hiring of a human resource specialist for recruiting and placement here. It could be for cargo. It could be for passenger. And with the new facilities coming there will be a big push to get the service. Quite a bit of square footage in this new facility is dedicated to international arrivals. They aren't going to sit back with this attitude of "gee I wish we had service." They aren't going to build it unless they feel confident they can get use out of it. If they were to build it without having any plans then it would be an approach of "if we build it they will come."



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7361 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3286 times:
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AMS is full of service from NW. I'll take a IND-LON before AMS.

 twocents 


User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3246 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 5):

That has already happened here at SLC. With DL getting SLC-CDG going in June, there is now speculation SLC could even see more in a post DL/NW merger such as AMS, LGW and maybe even FRA on the near horizon. NRT could only be less than a decade off as well.

I wouldn't start counting your chickens quite yet. These mergers have a lot of promises in them and only some of them become reality. If NW and DL start consolidating their fleets, its entirely possible the hubs that are left are JFK, ATL, DTW, and MSP. I'm not saying that SLC won't stay a hub, but theres an outside possibility it could face a St. Louis-like reduction in flights. The only thing preventing it is geography.

Quoting Indy (Reply 9):

But if you don't have it they can't come. And that still doesn't explain the comment about Customs hiring for a Europe flight and now the hiring of a human resource specialist for recruiting and placement here. It could be for cargo. It could be for passenger. And with the new facilities coming there will be a big push to get the service. Quite a bit of square footage in this new facility is dedicated to international arrivals. They aren't going to sit back with this attitude of "gee I wish we had service." They aren't going to build it unless they feel confident they can get use out of it. If they were to build it without having any plans then it would be an approach of "if we build it they will come."

I doubt its for cargo. Why would the new passenger terminal bring about an increase in cargo traffic when theres already a massive FX hub as is? All I can think of is that landing fees would be higher as a result of the new terminal, not helping cargo.

Its probably for passenger traffic, but aren't IND's customs facilities among the worst? Theres a possibility this is just for charter flights or a carrier like USA3000.


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3241 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 1):
I have a feeling the Customs official will be for Canadian flights.

Doubtful. We preclear here in Toronto (the only Canadian destination between IND and Canada). Unless service is being added between other southern Ontario cities (YXU, YHM, YKF, etc), the facilities probably aren't for Canadian flights.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3193 times:



Quoting LambertMan (Reply 11):
Its probably for passenger traffic, but aren't IND's customs facilities among the worst?

Only for 8 more months. They are just now getting the hr specialist for customs. I have no idea how long that will take to set up. Who knows how long it takes to recruit, hire, and train new agents. This could be for something many months out. Maybe its to staff the facilities at the new terminal? And I did hear the new fees are terrible. So for a larger carrier like NW having a route like AMS is a really good bargaining chip when it comes to negotiating lease fees.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineFruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 552 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

I'd love to see some sort of IND - EMA or BHX or MAN flight - if only to make it easier for me from a work point of view!

 Smile



Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4136 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3082 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
I cant see SLC working real well with 4 existing gateways to NRT so close to SLC. Maybe as onestop thru flight from SLC.

It would probably start as the latter (SLC/PDX), but much would depend on how much the combined carrier continues to commit to PDX. SLC and PDX have similarly sized O&D markets as well as being heavily vested in the tech economy, both having a large Intel presence. But as I pointed out, this is one that probably won't come until later in the teens. The biggest inhibitor to growth at SLC is the airport facilities, the lack of long enough runways for long-haul flights beyond using a 763ER or A332 for equipment, and the terminals and U.S. Customs at SLC? Let's not even go there. That is what needs to be improved more than anything. The O&D market at SLC continues to be up and coming and is higher than many communities that do have Europe service right now.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
As a rule airlines tend to do poorly in other alliance hubs. From such a marginal hub as SLC, I cant see FRA working, especially with excellent service from FRA to DEN, LAX, SFO, PDX, etc....

Funny thing how LH finally decided on SEA service, despite having PDX as well as YVR(Star Alliance hub for AC) service. DEN is significantly further away to SLC than SEA is to YVR or PDX. The biggest inhibitor is alliance affiliation, but again I wouldn't bet on this one until after 2015 or later. My point only being it will be looked at for further consideration by LH during the next decade.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
LHR might work, but lets see how CDG does before we expand SLC-Europe. If CDG doesn't work, nothing else will.

London and the U.K. have probably 3-4 times the O&D loads that Paris and France have, and many have speculated that it might even be enough for BA to consider adding it in future years if DL doesn't jump first. DL will probably continue to push the JFK connection for awhile since they are now up to 3x (2 752s & 1 738) on the number of daily SLC-JFK flights.

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 11):
I wouldn't start counting your chickens quite yet. These mergers have a lot of promises in them and only some of them become reality. If NW and DL start consolidating their fleets, its entirely possible the hubs that are left are JFK, ATL, DTW, and MSP. I'm not saying that SLC won't stay a hub, but theres an outside possibility it could face a St. Louis-like reduction in flights. The only thing preventing it is geography.

Unless the combined carrier wants to cede the entire western continent to UA and HP+US, it will only be a mere outside chance, and that outside chance would be a UA Chapter 7 which would move the hub to DEN overnight (which was looked at back in 2003 when it looked entirely possible). SLC while not as big as DEN, PHX or LAS in the region isn't the stagnant or declining O&D passenger load or population centers that PIT and STL have been noted for, which are the larger factors along with overlap with more profitable operations being why AA (STL) and US (PIT) did significant reductions or just pulled the plug completely. The lack of mainline gate space currently is the biggest growth inhibitor to DL at SLC. Much like IND, a new terminal and concourses is in the works. A fourth runway is even being talked about before 2020.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSpencerII From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3074 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
With a NW merger I can see SLC-AMS, but not the rest. There is a large part of the DL network that cannot access NRT, but with a NW merger that is solved with LAX, SFO, PDX and SEA. I cant see SLC working real well with 4 existing gateways to NRT so close to SLC. Maybe as onestop thru flight from SLC.

That is exactly as I see SLC- thru plane service to NRT. Additonally, when the merger happens, I do see a lot of European service from SLC as 1 stop or thru plane service being initiated.


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3024 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 10):
AMS is full of service from NW. I'll take a IND-LON before AMS.

But it wont work...you need some hub connectivity and AMS has it.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 15):
London and the U.K. have probably 3-4 times the O&D loads that Paris and France have, and many have speculated that it might even be enough for BA to consider adding it in future years if DL doesn't jump first. DL will probably continue to push the JFK connection for awhile since they are now up to 3x (2 752s & 1 738) on the number of daily SLC-JFK flights.

Youre missing the point..the value of CDG isnt the local market, it is the beyond CDG connections. You cant get those in LHR...using your logic, DL should do better in ATL-LGW and CVG-LGW than they do to CDG, but they dont.


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7361 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2991 times:
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Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 17):

But it wont work...you need some hub connectivity and AMS has it.

Codeshares?  confused 


User currently offlineBAKJet From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 744 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

Although I'm happy about this, it is just another rumor. I sure hope it is true.

User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

Probably just hiring a few more ICE agents for the Indy 500 Race to clear private and charter jets from Europe and other countries. IND-MEX will happen long before any Euro-flights

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2731 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):


With a NW merger I can see SLC-AMS, but not the rest. There is a large part of the DL network that cannot access NRT, but with a NW merger that is solved with LAX, SFO, PDX and SEA. I cant see SLC working real well with 4 existing gateways to NRT so close to SLC. Maybe as onestop thru flight from SLC.

but DL will have an open LGW slot (when JFK goes 1x LGW from 2x). With AF starting LAX-LHR i think that DL will add SLC-LGW and if DL/NW merge then SLC-AMS has a very good chance also but FRA and NRT are a really long shot.



yep.
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the preclearance thing. But it could just as easily be flights to CUN or elsewhere in the Carribean.


2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2207 times:



Quoting Indy (Reply 9):
And that still doesn't explain the comment about Customs hiring for a Europe flight and now the hiring of a human resource specialist for recruiting and placement here.

I know I will get flamed for this.... but IND already has direct service to Europe.... it's a certain airline with a lot of three holers and purple tails... and IND happens to be it's second biggest hub. So, maybe the CBP posting is just in anticipation of an FX expansion.

I'm sorry, I love my hometown as much as the next born and bred Hoosier... but I know with ORD and DTW so close... it's going to take a lot more then just Lilly to get direct European PASSENGER service.


User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4589 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2179 times:



Quoting COSPN (Reply 20):
IND-MEX will happen long before any Euro-flights

IND-MEX? Not sure there is much demand to MEX. There is a great deal of demand to Europe.

Quoting LV (Reply 23):
but I know with ORD and DTW

That didn't stop BDL from getting it with BOS and NY so close.



Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
25 RampGuy : So would I. I'm surprised that AMS would be first before London, if it were to happen.
26 SLCUT2777 : Long shots in that they are a few years out for stand-alones, although I could easily see 1 stops (same aircraft; SLC-ATL/JFK-FRA & SLC-PDX-NRT) goin
27 Flighty : Don't be surprised. AMS is KL/NW's trans-Atlantic "hub." So an AMS flight would effectively serve LHR, as well as other places. Still, NW has some LG
28 BOStonsox : There are also at least 4 million people in BDL's catchment area vs. IND's which has only half as much. Plus the BDL flight is subsidized by the busi
29 BAKJet : What do you call BDL's catchment area and IND's catchment area?
30 Afitch7881 : Hartford/Springfield/New Haven metro areas have close to 3 million people alone. Add in Worcester, southern Vt., and southeastern Connecticut and you
31 Indy : BDL's catchment area is also chopped by by carriers out of BOS. So available passengers are very limited. Which would explain their less than stellar
32 MAH4546 : You can't "chop" a catchment area. Catchment areas are catchment areas. BOS and BDL might share catchment areas on the outer rings, but it isn't chop
33 BOStonsox : I looked at MSA data for all the parts of CT in the NYC and the Hartford MSA. That gave a total of about 4 million. Then I looked at Indianapolis's M
34 Indy : I disagree. Hartford was a poor test. At least for NW. In goes an airline with little to no presence and they start a route like that. Same would go
35 SLCUT2777 : I think this is something that does change over the years. Ten years ago I would have thought someone was nuts to say PIT didn't deserve a route to E
36 Flighty : I think it will certainly hang on. MEM will remain a hub or focus city. DL or NW lacks justification right now to close any hubs. Politically, they w
37 SK601 : Loads on many flights out of AMS were very low. Not only to the USA, but for most of the destinations. This is the last 2 weeks, but loads are going
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