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3-3 Seating On Europaen Business Class  
User currently offlinePlairbus From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 311 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4855 times:

Why the europaen airlines do not have 2-2 seating like in the US and Latin America?? i prefer it a lot to have bigger seats even on an 2 o 3 hours flight.

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1985 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4813 times:

Well they almost do have 2-2 from what I am aware they leave the middle seat in each row empty. This way they can change the size of the business class as they see fit. As far as the remark about 2-3 hour flights... for the most part that will be the longest you would fly in Europe vs say 5 hours YUL-YVR.


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineMarcus380 From France, joined Feb 2006, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4786 times:

Hello,

Sorry but in european AF Business class (A318 to A321) it is a 2-2 seating.
However it is not e real business class seat since the middled seat is comdemned, the backrest middle is tipping creating a table and the two armrest are moved to the center widenning the seat.
Of course the seat pitch is the same.
This system permits to use the planes for local flights where you have no bizz class and for European flights too.
There the size of the bizz class can be modulated. See link on the AF site (in french):

http://www.airfrance.fr/common/image.../fr/A319_europe_136pax_maxi_fr.gif

Cheers
Marcus


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26997 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4786 times:



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 1):
Well they almost do have 2-2 from what I am aware they leave the middle seat in each row empty. This way they can change the size of the business class as they see fit.

European Business Class on airlines like OS LX BA with durations of 2-3 hours sure beats most US carriers I have been on .


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25338 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4778 times:

There have been many threads on this subject, including one just last week. If you review the threads below (and others if you do a search) it will avoid a lot of repetition.
Europe Business Class: Just Don't Understand This! (by RootsAir Feb 13 2006 in Civil Aviation)
Questions Re US Vs Europe/Asian Business Class (by Ansett767 Mar 11 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Europe and the USA are very different markets. There is virtually no demand for the U.S. type of first class service which in the U.S. is often filled by elite frequent flyers entitled to free upgrades. In Europe, business travellers are normally paying to travel in business class and place a higher value on things like free lounge access etc. Flights are generally quite short and demand varies so much from route to route and by day of week that it's much more efficient for the airlines to be able to adjust the size of the business class cabin from 2 or 3 rows (or none at all) on low-demand flights to sometimes half the cabin on peak flights. That's not possible with a fixed U.S. style first class cabin. European carriers also need the extra seating capacity to compete with low-cost carriers. Many carriers now leave the middle seat empty in business classs, and combined with higher standards of inflight service, that meets the needs of European business travellers just fine.

[Edited 2008-02-16 11:48:36]

User currently offlineJkj777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4669 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
There have been many threads on this subject, including one just last week. If you review the threads below (and others if you do a search) it will avoid a lot of repetition.

WOW, some of you on here are thread Nazis waiting for someone to repeat a thread that was discussed 5 months ago. Get over yourselves and let these folks talk about these topics.

Some of the 2-2 seating on US first class products are not great. On many occasions, I would prefer an exit row in coach than a seat in first. All you really get differently is a free drink (unless it is a transcon flight with a meal). A lot of time, it is not worth the extra $$.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9642 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4637 times:

The US and European ways of treating business class are very different.

European Business:
Food on ALL flights
Lounge Access
Smaller seats
Mileage Bonuses
Many pay for business class

US First:
Larger Seats
Food only on flights over about 2-3 hours at meal timesd
Easy to upgrade

Each market caters to what its customers want/demand and try to make the most profit. If a US carrier gave up 2X2 first class seating, they would see their elite high revenue customers complain and go to the competition. If a European carrier moved to 2X2 seating, they likely would not be able to find the revenue to cover the additional cost of nonflexible seating and a less dense configuration.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
European Business Class on airlines like OS LX BA with durations of 2-3 hours sure beats most US carriers I have been on .

That's your opinion, but I have exact opposite opinion. When I upgrade or pay for short haul business class, part of the reason for doing it is so that I have extra room. I want extra seat pitch and not just a middle seat blocked off. Because of this I think US carriers offer a far superior domestic first class product.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26997 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4619 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
I want extra seat pitch and not just a middle seat blocked off. Because of this I think US carriers offer a far superior domestic first class product.

Well I want good food and lounge access and the middle seat free so I guess its horses for courses.

Wouldnt it be great if US Domestic offered decent food on flights between 2-3 hours !! After all the tickets are not that cheap .


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25338 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4605 times:



Quoting Jkj777 (Reply 5):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
There have been many threads on this subject, including one just last week. If you review the threads below (and others if you do a search) it will avoid a lot of repetition.

WOW, some of you on here are thread Nazis waiting for someone to repeat a thread that was discussed 5 months ago. Get over yourselves and let these folks talk about these topics.

Five months yes, but not when there was another thread on the same subject last Tuesday. Don't think much has changed since then.


User currently offlineLHR777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4593 times:



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
Each market caters to what its customers want/demand and try to make the most profit. If a US carrier gave up 2X2 first class seating, they would see their elite high revenue customers complain and go to the competition.

But how many of those US airline customers are either A/frequent flyers upgraded for free or B/Passengers purchasing YUP-type fares and again siting in F having not paid for F fares?

In Europe, J class is a valuable commodity for European customers, and elite-tier cardholders (or their companies) generally pay for it. They gain ticket flexibility, lounge access and a raft of other benefits.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
If a European carrier moved to 2X2 seating, they likely would not be able to find the revenue to cover the additional cost of nonflexible seating and a less dense configuration.

Not true - the convertible seats allow the carrier to increase and decrease the J cabin to match demand. I've seen 767's operating LHR-DME with 172 J class seats and around 35 Y class seats. Imagine how much revenue that generates. US carriers with their fixed-size cabins do not have that option.

In Europe, the high service levels compensate for the smaller seat pitch. (34" is common). Then again, you're only getting 38-40" pitch in a US carriers' First class cabin, unless a 3-class (AA) or P.S.-type product is being used.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
When I upgrade or pay for short haul business class, part of the reason for doing it is so that I have extra room. I want extra seat pitch and not just a middle seat blocked off. Because of this I think US carriers offer a far superior domestic first class product.

We all want extra space, but are you really saying that US carriers offer a 'far superior domestic first class' product, based purely upon seat pitch? Do meal service, crew attitude, lounge access, superior catering etc not matter?


User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4589 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 7):
Well I want good food and lounge access and the middle seat free so I guess its horses for courses.

You can get those a la carte in the US. Lounges ($25-50/day, $300-600/year) and food (buy in/on the way to the airport). There are no middle seats in F, so that's hard to do. Per flight the cost is pretty small.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26997 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4574 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 10):
food (buy in/on the way to the airport).

Not always an option when rushing from meeting-gate etc... Nice to get a hot meal on a flight around 2-3 hours.

Quoting Analog (Reply 10):
There are no middle seats in F, so that's hard to do

US carriers F class seats are quite nice . Its just the rest of the service that I dont like.


User currently offlinePlairbus From Germany, joined Feb 2008, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4564 times:

what is the problem for asking something that perhaps asked somebody else a few days or month ago??? Thatas whuy we have this forum right?? to ask what and when you want and if you hate repaeting things and you do not like it why are you writing something for this post?? Ignore it. Thanks to all the other, special thanks to: Jkj777

User currently offlineVal From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4533 times:

One thing you all may want to think about is the fact that both U.S. and European carriers have to have 1 flight attendant on board for every 50 seats on the aircraft, whether they are occupied or not.

Since U.S. carriers typically operate with a minimum crew compliment nowadays, the European carriers may have an edge with their service because each flight attendant has less passengers to take care of.


User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4466 times:



Quoting Val (Reply 13):
One thing you all may want to think about is the fact that both U.S. and European carriers have to have 1 flight attendant on board for every 50 seats on the aircraft, whether they are occupied or not.

Since U.S. carriers typically operate with a minimum crew compliment nowadays, the European carriers may have an edge with their service because each flight attendant has less passengers to take care of.

The number of crew per flight is certainly not the case, and should in no case be an excuse for poor service. I bet most European carriers operate with minimum crew compliment just like their American counterparts do.

Quoting Plairbus (Reply 12):
what is the problem for asking something that perhaps asked somebody else a few days or month ago???

What's the problem with using the search function from time to time?  Wink There is nothing wrong with asking the same question from time to time; but this very same question was asked not even a week ago...


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9642 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4399 times:



Quoting LHR777 (Reply 9):
We all want extra space, but are you really saying that US carriers offer a 'far superior domestic first class' product, based purely upon seat pitch? Do meal service, crew attitude, lounge access, superior catering etc not matter?

To be honest I want all of it, but I can't get that in North America or Europe. I'd have to go to Asia.

I rank seat comfort as the number one thing when I'm paying extra for first class. Second I want a meal if I am hungry. Those are what are important to me. Free drinks, more attentive service, priority checkin and other factors are important, but in the end I prefer US airlines first class because the seats are actually comfortable. Even when the middle seat is blocked off, I have trouble sleeping or getting comfortable on European first class flights. I always find it extremely uncomfortable to get off a long haul business class flight in FRA and then have to sit in a small economy seat even if it is only a couple hours.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineGBan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 4214 times:



Quoting Jkj777 (Reply 5):
WOW, some of you on here are thread Nazis waiting for someone to repeat a thread that was discussed 5 months ago. Get over yourselves and let these folks talk about these topics.



Quoting Plairbus (Reply 12):
what is the problem for asking something that perhaps asked somebody else a few days or month ago??? Thatas whuy we have this forum right?? to ask what and when you want and if you hate repaeting things and you do not like it why are you writing something for this post?? Ignore it. Thanks to all the other, special thanks to: Jkj777

Please get over yourself. Viscounts hint to very recent threads answering your question was very polite. He did not even put your thread in question.

The tone in Jkj777s and in your response sounds very impolite to me, for no reason.

And, btw - did you do a quick search before posting? You are supposed to do that.


User currently offlineJouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4205 times:



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 1):
Well they almost do have 2-2 from what I am aware they leave the middle seat in each row empty.

BA Club Europe has 2-3 seating (AC-DEF) and the E middle seat is frequently occupied.


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 4097 times:

I just wonder how much space our American friends want/need. 34" pitch should be enough for anybody, even those with really long legs. Personally I find Euro Business very comfortable and have no trouble sleeping. Im not sure how much width you guys fell you need either. On a lot of Euro carriers a cocktail table is placed in the middle seat and the armrests raised or stowed into the table, so there is an extra few inches width. I find too wide a seat makes reading, etc quite difficult.

To me it seems insane that US carriers give away their best product to passengers, and passengers really moan when they are not upgraded. Y is not that bad, guys! Its not like you will have absolutely no space, or anything like that, I think a lot of you guys need to learn to occupy less space and pack a bit lighter. The amount of luggage a lot of you guys pack is insane.

A lot of european carriers operate on minimum crew too, LX does for sure, 3 on the 319, 4 on 320/321 unless loads in J are very high in the 321, when they will put 5 on the flight. Let me tell you, the service is excellent.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3983 times:



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 18):
I just wonder how much space our American friends want/need. 34" pitch should be enough for anybody, even those with really long legs

Don't you ever want to cross your legs? Want to get up from the window without forcing the person at the aisle to get up? Get something from your bag (on the floor) while in flight? The sweet spot starts somewhere around 36" (for me at >6' tall; varies based on seat design). Less than that and things start to get tight.

Quoting Jouy31 (Reply 17):
BA Club Europe has 2-3 seating (AC-DEF) and the E middle seat is frequently occupied.

How does that work? Bad luck for 60% of C passengers?

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 18):
I find too wide a seat makes reading, etc quite difficult.

No SQ new C for you.


User currently offlineJouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3956 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 19):
How does that work? Bad luck for 60% of C passengers?

Pretty much that, especially for those who end up in the middle seat. Mostly non-Elite or last minute passengers.


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3920 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3940 times:



Quoting Analog (Reply 19):
Don't you ever want to cross your legs?

Yeup, can do it no problem, alhthough I like to cross my legs stretchced out at the ankles. Even in 31"Y I usually dont have a problem, and Im 6'2". I think a lot of people must slouch really badly, casue I can get nice and comfy in a seat with 34" and get some decent sleep. Maybe Im weird!

Quoting Analog (Reply 19):
Want to get up from the window without forcing the person at the aisle to get up?

I agree with you on this one. Usually on nighttime flights I will ask for an aisle that way I can move about as I wish. Im not really a massive window fan, usually.

Quoting Analog (Reply 19):
Get something from your bag (on the floor) while in flight?

Mine fits in the overhead bin. But I think I might understand why Americans like to have more pitch, and it comes from the ridiculous amount of hand luggage you guys bring on the plane, and multiple bags. Not all of it will fit in the bins so it has to go under the seat, reducing legroom. Only once have I had to put my bag under the seat, and it was bloody miserable, its much easier if everything fits in the bins.

Quoting Analog (Reply 19):
No SQ new C for you.

Indeed! Although I think it might be wide enough to curl up on, sofa style, which I would quite like!

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3930 times:

I experienced this for the first time and thought it so weird!

I was on a military hop BAH-NGU on a North American 757. I was in row 2 I believe and the middle seat arms could swing in and out. I was in the aisle and another guy at the window, so we both swung the arms in. Also, the tray table in the middle seat was split in two so when they are let down, I guess it can serve as drink tables for the window and aisle seats.

Still very unfomfortable though.

Edit: Here's what I meant.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Patrick Faudree



Also, can you believe they squeeze have a wopping 2-4-2 on their 763's  crowded  !!! I don't think that it runs through the whole cabin. I just noticed it in the section I was sitting in just behind their J cabin.

[Edited 2008-02-17 04:09:20]

[Edited 2008-02-17 04:10:05]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9642 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3084 times:



Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 18):
I just wonder how much space our American friends want/need. 34" pitch should be enough for anybody, even those with really long legs.

After a while I don't like sitting upright with my arms on the arm rests. I like to get a bit more comfortable. With 34'' pitch and the person in front of you reclining because they want the same, it is difficult to sit in any other way than straight.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2371 times:



Quoting GBan (Reply 16):
Please get over yourself. Viscounts hint to very recent threads answering your question was very polite. He did not even put your thread in question.

The tone in Jkj777s and in your response sounds very impolite to me, for no reason.

And, btw - did you do a quick search before posting? You are supposed to do that.

Firstly, this is a general reply and meant in no way whatsoever toward any particular person.
A lot of people really need to get over a lot of this stuff.....both ways. Okay, if someone asks a question which has already been discussed or whatever recently, so what? Simply don't answer or get involved in the thread if it apparently irritates you. Searching may prove helpful yes, but there is nothing to state you "are SUPPOSED to do that" or anything of the sort (sort of similar to you don't HAVE to answer anything)!!
I can understand both sides but, then again, there seems to be creeping into this forum at times a tendency for some members full of self-importance to feel they can/should be able to dictate who can opinionate or what can or can't be discussed.
It's a forum for aviation enthusiasts, as hopefully we all are, so no need whatever for some to get on high horses over absolutely trivial things. If anyone doesn't want to answer something, then just simply don't!


25 GBan : In some cases you may be right. In this specific case someone started a thread on a topic that is being discussed in other threads. I don't mind, you
26 Post contains images Jkj777 : man, just stop posting in forums if you cannot stand for a topic to be discussed more than once. You are not the airliners.net police........ Very we
27 Viscount724 : I disagree. The Forum Rules (see the link in red at the bottom of every thread) include the following: Double Posting: Never post the same topic more
28 Panamair : Actually, I am not sure which European carrier gives you 34" pitch on their narrow-bodies plying intra-Europe? Since the European Business cabin is e
29 Post contains images Analog : Forgoing the big carry-on bags may work on airlines with spotless baggage delivery records, like BA. Come to think of it my last delayed bag (2004!)
30 Viscount724 : I think KL is close to 34" (might be 33") in the forward rows of their 737s, i.e. the rows that can be used for Europe Select service (their name for
31 BrianDromey : While the standard Y pitch in Europe might be 31, or 32 inches, the front of the aircraft tends to have 2-3 inches more, while the rows to the rear,
32 Jouy31 : Europe Select is considered more as a Premium Economy product rather than a business class product. Seating is 3x3 !
33 Viscount724 : It's sold as C class which in Europe means business class,and the fares are certainly at business class levels. it's best avoided for the reason you
34 Post contains images GBan : I'm obviously not the airliners.net police. I'm clearly not the one telling others not to post In any case it sometimes helps a lot to read before po
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