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DL/NW Merger Effects On GRB,TVC,MBS, Etc...?  
User currently offlineMaiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 50
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4454 times:

How will this merger effect airports that are currently served by NW mainline? Will airports like GRB, TVC, FNT , MBS , LAN , etc etc continue to be served by mainline aircraft?

Just a guess, but I would imagine that the Airbii serving TVC, GRB, and FNT would be replaced with 738's and the Airbii will serve long distance routes.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMKE22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4452 times:

Good question. My guess is that most of those stay on. I also wonder how the merger will affect NW 's non controlling stake in YX.


If Your not pissed, your not trying
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4419 times:



Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Thread starter):
Just a guess, but I would imagine that the Airbii serving TVC, GRB, and FNT would be replaced with 738's

Why use a larger aircraft?

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Thread starter):
How will this merger effect airports that are currently served by NW mainline? Will airports like GRB, TVC, FNT , MBS , LAN , etc etc continue to be served by mainline aircraft?

Most of these cities will probably all be downgraded provided DL will be calling the shots. I think the largest factor in the fate of these cities is how the FF programs are merged. There is heavy NW loyalty in that area and having FC helps keep it that way. I would bet that most of these cities end up with CR9s and E170s, as well as a little mainline mixed in when its convenient for a particular aircraft.


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3345 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4356 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 2):

Most of these cities will probably all be downgraded provided DL will be calling the shots.

Not at all. Airlines use their best judgment to put the most effective equipment on each route. It's not likely that a Delta planner will come to a different conclusion than NW has about what fleet type best matches these markets.

Besides, a lot of NW planners will survive the merger and be making the same decisions at Delta they do at NW.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4297 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 3):
Not at all. Airlines use their best judgment to put the most effective equipment on each route. It's not likely that a Delta planner will come to a different conclusion than NW has about what fleet type best matches these markets.

It will be VERY interesting to see how they mesh the domestic network together. Many of us here in SLC are now speculating that DTW will go from one MD-90 per day to probably include another 2-3 mainline flights, and SLC-MSP will be strictly mainline flights as well. It will be interesting to see if DL/NW personnel decide on adding SLC service to some of the other NW strongholds in that part of the country such as IND or MKE since there are a considerable number of NW frequent flyers, even though for DL these proved to be only moderately successful on connection carriers over the last couple of years.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineWarszawa From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 727 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4232 times:

Dont expect anything to change much with the airports mentioned. GRB/TVC/FNT/MBS/LAN are just your standard NW bread and butter routes. They'll remain virtually the same, unless the DC9 is retired, then likely expect CR9's or E175's replacing the 9' routes. Current airbus routes will still remain airbus.

I'm surprised many people on this forum believe in some overwhelming change because of this potential NW/DL ordeal. Kind of reminds me of the America West / US Airways days. Now a few years later, how significant has America's West (US Airways - West, now, I suppose) route structure changed? Hardly anything.

Kind of like speculating, "If America West and US merged, can we expect PHX-LAS to go all PSA air CR2's, and the Airbus/733's on longer routes!?!?", or "Will LAX-LAS go all Mesa CR9 and Republic E175?"

If and anything, the ONLY thing that would change, if we assume the DL/NW merger goes through, in those cities cited above, GRB, TVC, FNT, MBS, LAN, is these may or may not lose ATL, CVG, and/or MEM service. Most likely CVG/MEM, which coincides with the widespread belief that MEM and CVG will be impacted the most by a merger. These cities wont "Die" in service (MEM and CVG), but will be cutback drastically, while DL's CVG bread and butter routes will remain, and the same is true for NW's MEM B&B routes.



Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
User currently offlineBinMonster From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

My guess it will be similar to what happened when Delta / Western integration.
Stage 1. Stickers on the aircraft. no route changes.
Stage 2. Upgrades to Hub to Hub flying to integrate DL / NW routes.
Stage 3. After DL / NW crews have been integrated, aircraft will be gauged to the demand of a route.
Stage 4. Additional right gauging of aircraft to demand / yield of a route.
Stage 5. Look for additional opportunity to grow international.



How about a station like SAT.

NW
SAT-MSP Mainline
SAT-DTW Mainline
SAT-MEM Mainline

DL
SAT-ATL Mainline/CRJ
SAT-CVG CRJ
SAT-SLC CRJ


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4030 times:



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 3):
Not at all. Airlines use their best judgment to put the most effective equipment on each route. It's not likely that a Delta planner will come to a different conclusion than NW has about what fleet type best matches these markets.

Besides, a lot of NW planners will survive the merger and be making the same decisions at Delta they do at NW.

Very true, especially since Anderson used to run NW he knows what NW can and can not do.

Quoting BinMonster (Reply 7):
My guess it will be similar to what happened when Delta / Western integration.
Stage 1. Stickers on the aircraft. no route changes.
Stage 2. Upgrades to Hub to Hub flying to integrate DL / NW routes.
Stage 3. After DL / NW crews have been integrated, aircraft will be gauged to the demand of a route.
Stage 4. Additional right gauging of aircraft to demand / yield of a route.
Stage 5. Look for additional opportunity to grow international.

Agreed, however its going to take a long, long time before the NW/DL crews are integrated.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3946 times:



Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 5):
It will be interesting to see if DL/NW personnel decide on adding SLC service to some of the other NW strongholds in that part of the country such as IND or MKE since there are a considerable number of NW frequent flyers

I can't imagine that SLC's connection opportunities or O&D would change very much. NW FFs could already get miles on DL's SLC-MKE route and recently the route did have F seats (CR9) and it still couldn't work.


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3895 times:



Quoting N353SK (Reply 9):
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 5):
It will be interesting to see if DL/NW personnel decide on adding SLC service to some of the other NW strongholds in that part of the country such as IND or MKE since there are a considerable number of NW frequent flyers

I can't imagine that SLC's connection opportunities or O&D would change very much. NW FFs could already get miles on DL's SLC-MKE route and recently the route did have F seats (CR9) and it still couldn't work.

While the code share didn't help that one out, I suspect the merging of brands just might do that. But in the end, having MSP will eliminate the CVG backtrack for many of these routes such as MKE, IND, DSM or a possible GRR.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3890 times:



Quoting BinMonster (Reply 7):
How about a station like SAT.

NW
SAT-MSP Mainline
SAT-DTW Mainline
SAT-MEM Mainline

Unless these are mainline routes now, I dont see why mergerign with DL would make them mainline post-merger. MEM probably wont exist within 5 years ditto CVG as hubs. I can see DTW going mainline if it isnt now when MEM and CVG close. I dont see how MSP would change given it doesnt compete with CVG for flow ODs


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3866 times:



Quoting BinMonster (Reply 7):
My guess it will be similar to what happened when Delta / Western integration.
Stage 1. Stickers on the aircraft. no route changes.
Stage 2. Upgrades to Hub to Hub flying to integrate DL / NW routes.
Stage 3. After DL / NW crews have been integrated, aircraft will be gauged to the demand of a route.
Stage 4. Additional right gauging of aircraft to demand / yield of a route.
Stage 5. Look for additional opportunity to grow international.

 checkmark 

Question, is, how long with this process take?

Quoting BinMonster (Reply 7):
How about a station like SAT.

NW
SAT-MSP Mainline
SAT-DTW Mainline
SAT-MEM Mainline

DL
SAT-ATL Mainline/CRJ
SAT-CVG CRJ
SAT-SLC CRJ

I still don't see the DL CRJ routes going mailine although the NW routes would most likely stay the same unless DL/NW can find better use of the aircraft.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 11):
Unless these are mainline routes now, I dont see why mergerign with DL would make them mainline post-merger. MEM probably wont exist within 5 years ditto CVG as hubs. I can see DTW going mainline if it isnt now when MEM and CVG close. I dont see how MSP would change given it doesnt compete with CVG for flow ODs

This will be a very touchy subject and I think many studies will be put in place to decide exactly what to do with CVG and MEM. I don't see these cities being shut down but I do in fact would imagine many routes will be eliminated, opting for the connection to run through either ATL or DTW more more of the lucrative mainline routes I would expect will stay to target more of their OD passengers. I would also expect express service between MEM-ATL to be beefed up.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23223 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3787 times:



Quoting Warszawa (Reply 6):
If and anything, the ONLY thing that would change, if we assume the DL/NW merger goes through, in those cities cited above, GRB, TVC, FNT, MBS, LAN, is these may or may not lose ATL, CVG, and/or MEM service

In most cases, it will be most dependent on what the combined carrier decides to do with hubs at CVG and MEM. I think most of smaller midwest markets will see some service to ATL (some, like GRB, already do), but that could be at the expense of MEM or CVG in those markets. Of course, most of the smallest markets do not have service to either CVG or MEM now; it's cities like MKE and GRR which are large enough to have service to all 3 NW hubs and both ATL and CVG where it will be interesting.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMaiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3781 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 2):
I would bet that most of these cities end up with CR9s and E170s,

...with the exception of TVC which has a main runway length of 6500ft. An A320 makes more sense than a CR9 does, in the winter when runways are snow covered and in the summer when its hot.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 5):
Current airbus routes will still remain airbus.

6 months out of the year TVC is served with a mix of A319/A320 so if what you say is true, that is good news. I just imagined that DL might assign these aircraft to more distant routes than DTW-FNT, DTW-TVC etc...


User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3764 times:



Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 14):
...with the exception of TVC which has a main runway length of 6500ft. An A320 makes more sense than a CR9 does, in the winter when runways are snow covered and in the summer when its hot.

Whats runway length have to do with it if these flights arent any longer than an hour?


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23223 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3750 times:



Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 14):
6 months out of the year TVC is served with a mix of A319/A320 so if what you say is true, that is good news. I just imagined that DL might assign these aircraft to more distant routes than DTW-FNT, DTW-TVC etc...

NW wouldn't fly mainline on DTW-FNT if it didn't make money...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1629 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3721 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 15):
Whats runway length have to do with it if these flights arent any longer than an hour?

One, TVC can be a pain to deal with in the winter due to the short runway length. NWA has designated it a Special Winter Ops airport, meaning several conditions must be met to land there, especially with the DC-9. Two, just because a flight is short doesn't mean that there are no weight restrictions that go along with it. Enroute weather can be one factor, requiring that extra gas has to be taken due to an alternate that is far away or an expected hold somewhere along the line.

I wonder what what effect the merger will have on GRR. NWA runs 7/8 dailies to DTW on mainline and Airlink, 5 dailies to MSP, both mainline and Airlink, 1 daily to MEM (Airlink), and 1x to MCO, which is mainline, seasonally. NWA is obviously far larger in GRR than DL, which has only Connection service to CVG and ATL. Would the station be kept around its present size? Could DL's mainline service to ATL be restored? Could SLC service be added eventually?



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineMaiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3660 times:

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 17):
Two, just because a flight is short doesn't mean that there are no weight restrictions that go along with it.

I guess he hasn't learned that yet. Weight restrictions was one of the first things I learned about in ground school...way back in '91.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 17):
Could DL's mainline service to ATL be restored? Could SLC service be added eventually?

I could see both of those routes having a mainline flight.

[Edited 2008-02-18 13:52:00]

User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3606 times:

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 18):
Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 17):
Two, just because a flight is short doesn't mean that there are no weight restrictions that go along with it.

I guess he hasn't learned that yet. Weight restrictions was one of the first things I learned about in ground school...way back in '91.

The main runway at CRW is 6,302ft., and up untill the EMAS at the end of rwy 5 the safety areas on each end were under 300ft. There are also hills off each end. How could I not have learned about weight restrictions by now?


My point was that both the CR9 and A320 are capable performers for such a short route.

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 17):
One, TVC can be a pain to deal with in the winter due to the short runway length. NWA has designated it a Special Winter Ops airport, meaning several conditions must be met to land there, especially with the DC-9. Two, just because a flight is short doesn't mean that there are no weight restrictions that go along with it. Enroute weather can be one factor, requiring that extra gas has to be taken due to an alternate that is far away or an expected hold somewhere along the line.

TVC-DTW is a 30-40 minute route. If they planned on holding around DTW for an hour then diverting all the way to MSP, I can see where they may start running into some problems with the runway length at TVC.

As far as the snow goes, do they not have brooms in TVC?

I'm sure it gets hotter here than it gets in TVC, and were dealing with CR2's, longer flights and a shorter runway. Not to mention the E135/45 to IAH.

[Edited 2008-02-18 15:25:37]

User currently offlineNWAESC From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3589 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 11):
Unless these are mainline routes now,

All NWA flights out of SAT are mainline.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1629 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3492 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 19):
My point was that both the CR9 and A320 are capable performers for such a short route.

319/320 yes. They are regulars on the route and do not have weight criticality problems. XJ's CR9s haven't ever been to TVC, but they could probably handle summer and winter. I was making reference to the fact that we don't know what will happen if the merger goes through. Maybe it will stay DC-9, CRJ, and Saab. And if that happens, you will still see occasional operational hiccups.

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 19):
As far as the snow goes, do they not have brooms in TVC?

That might actually be the problem. They might only have brooms there.  Wink



Hey Swifty
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3458 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 21):
Maybe it will stay DC-9, CRJ, and Saab. And if that happens, you will still see occasional operational hiccups.

I can see the DC-9 having trouble in the Summer. They really used to take their time getting off the ground here, and they were only heading up to PIT.


User currently offlineWarszawa From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 727 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3436 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 19):
I'm sure it gets hotter here than it gets in TVC, and were dealing with CR2's, longer flights and a shorter runway. Not to mention the E135/45 to IAH.

In regards to weight restriction, you'd be surprised, some of the short routes are actually weight restricted.

I was very surprised to hear one particular weight restriction a month and a half ago. I was at FNT on December 29th 07, relative was booked on a Skyway (Midwest) J328 Jet for MKE, a measly 45-50 minute flight. Flight was fully booked, 32 passengers, because a flight the day before was cancelled.

The flight was originally scheduled for an on time departure...20 minutes pass, 30 minutes. Still didnt leave the gate. Relative calls me and says "they still havent boarded us, now they say 2 people need to get off the plane because of weight".

Nonetheless I was surprised, heres a plane that routinely would fly BDL-MKE in the winter, with headwinds in excess of 130mph, but it cant even do a 45 minute flight with 32 passengers? Geez.

FNT's lengthiest runway is 7849 ft, too. One would think for a J328 on a 45-50 minute flight with 32 passengers, on a cold December afternoon, shouldn't be an issue. Many times just leaves you scratching your head, but there are likely several other factors pertinent to the aircraft (perhaps some equipment on MEL, thereby requiring more runway length for takeoff, etc.).



Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
User currently offlineRedTailDTW From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 757 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3420 times:



Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 17):
I wonder what what effect the merger will have on GRR. NWA runs 7/8 dailies to DTW on mainline and Airlink, 5 dailies to MSP, both mainline and Airlink, 1 daily to MEM (Airlink), and 1x to MCO, which is mainline, seasonally

Not to mention the GRR-DCA and GRR-LGA Northwest Airlink runs once per day.



Mason



Northwest Airlines. Now your flying smart!
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3412 times:



Quoting Warszawa (Reply 23):
FNT's lengthiest runway is 7849 ft, too. One would think for a J328 on a 45-50 minute flight with 32 passengers, on a cold December afternoon, shouldn't be an issue. Many times just leaves you scratching your head, but there are likely several other factors pertinent to the aircraft (perhaps some equipment on MEL, thereby requiring more runway length for takeoff, etc.).

The factors that can lead to a weight restriction are endless. That particular instance puzzles me.


25 Ouboy79 : You have to keep in mind TVC has a ton of tourists on it as well. So a lot of baggage...which will add to the weight. So yes, there will be restricti
26 Post contains images Ocracoke : Hot? In TVC? When you have some free time, spend a few weeks in the swamps in the south, or out in the desert out west during summertime. Compare tha
27 Maiznblu_757 : Maybe it's to expensive for them. I know a lot of people who have AC up there. Not to get this turned into a weather discussion but... I lived in Mar
28 Tjwgrr : I easily see mainline GRR-ATL being restored, especially if the CVG and/or MEM hubs are dismantled. Post merger, I think an E-Jet GRR-SLC flight coul
29 Dc-9-10 : Probably needed the a ton of fuel for an alternate airport that is nowhere near MKE. That is my guess.
30 Post contains images Cubsrule : It may also have been a landing weight issue at MKE rather than an issue with MTOW or runway performance (the 328Jet is not known for its runway perf
31 Ouboy79 : Would love a now and then upper 90 temp. Unfortunately it is usually May/June highs in the mid 90s nonstop through September...with a few dozen 100+
32 Warszawa : Makes sense, considering my relative was actually booked on for the Friday flight that got cancelled (due to a major snowstorm in MKE/GRR heading our
33 Warszawa : I'd be surprised if they were, i've flown the FNT-MKE route & return a few times on Skyways 328's, those planes are a beast on takeoff.
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