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New Engine Key To AA Fleet Renewal  
User currently offlineQqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2266 posts, RR: 13
Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12105 times:

Flight Global talks with AA's VP of Operations, Bob Redding, about narrowbody fleet renewal. Bob's underlying point is that a new engine with up to 30% increases in efficiency is necessary for the next quantum leap in narrowbody aircraft design to occur. He said AA is looking for a plane that will carry about 150 people.

He also notes AA is considering the A350 and 787, although widebody fleet renewal isn't as important as replacing the narrowbody fleet. He also said the A380 is likely too large for AA. No real new information, but a slightly different take on the topic and an interesting read, none-the-less.

Follow the link below for the full article.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...yes-narrowbody-renewal-growth.html


The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11953 times:

Very interesting article. Thanks for bringing to our attention.

Some points to think of--

Fuel/Oil-always the biggest Concern of any airline. Find an engine/aircraft that consumes the least amount and exerts also the least amount is a win win. 30% is a huge number but not unrealistic to forecast.

Aircrafts-How soon are they wanting to replace the 757/MD80? I saw a year of 2018, this means a target date of being replaced by 2018? I do enjoy the MD80, and hope whatever replaces it, possibly more 738 is just as good if not better and have heard good things of AA's 738's.

A350/787- People would want to assume the 787, but the A350 is not out of reach either I suppose. Airline doing their job of looking at both prospects, and "checking it out" rather. I do hope to see the 787 as It could benefit STL, or maybe not at all.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11772 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 1):
A350/787- People would want to assume the 787, but the A350 is not out of reach either I suppose. Airline doing their job of looking at both prospects, and "checking it out" rather. I do hope to see the 787 as It could benefit STL, or maybe not at all.

I think they are just mentioning the A350 just to say that they are lookiing at every option but i bet they have already made some sort of decision about the 787


User currently offlineTCT From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11734 times:

Well their only choice for narrow body replacement is the 737 series, unless their willing to go airbus, unlikely that they'll choose any other company.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11710 times:



Quoting Qqflyboy (Thread starter):
No real new information.

Understatement.  Wink

AA is very reluctantly taking 738s to replace older MD80s, but wants a new plane. They want a plane at least 30% more efficient than their newest MD80s. That's achievable. Ideally, it would be even better. We'll see.

But if Boeing can pull that off, we'll see CO/UA + AA + DL/NW + WN order 1000 of them to replace 737 classic, MD80, MD80/DC9 and 737 classic respectively.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineTCT From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11637 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
AA is very reluctantly taking 738s to replace older MD80s, but wants a new plane. They want a plane at least 30% more efficient than their newest MD80s. That's achievable. Ideally, it would be even better. We'll see.

I'm sure that Boeing would be willing enough to create another aircraft family just for AA, after all they are the largest MD80 operator in the world.


User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 11520 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
AA is very reluctantly taking 738s to replace older MD80s, but wants a new plane.

Agreed. AA probably won't take more than 150 738s total. They rather push the MD-80 fleet a little further
into its service life, while hoping the 737RS is in service around the last MD-80's retirement. Timing is
everything here, not to mention taking a risk on perhaps being a launch customer. Look at the 787 delays.

Quoting TCT (Reply 5):
I'm sure that Boeing would be willing enough to create another aircraft family just for AA,

Not to mention for Southwest as well. They're Boeing's biggest 737 customer.

Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2266 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 11509 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 2):
I think they are just mentioning the A350 just to say that they are lookiing at every option but i bet they have already made some sort of decision about the 787

Entirely possible, but if you look back at the A300 order, it was announced at the same time as an order for 763s. It was mentioned, at the time, they split the order between Boeing and Airbus specifically to improve upon the purchase price. It isn't impossible to think it could happen again. At any rate, this article makes me wonder when they'll announce an order for either plane. It's clear now we need more international capacity. I wish we'd just take delivery of the remaining seven 777s we have deferred. That would help things a lot.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5421 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 11419 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
But if Boeing can pull that off, we'll see CO/UA + AA + DL/NW + WN order 1000 of them to replace 737 classic, MD80, MD80/DC9 and 737 classic respectively.

It will be truly amazing the level of demand if this efficiency is achieved!

When (not if) the new narrow bodies make it off the drawing board, what will the production levels have to be to meet this? Airframer and engine mfg?

Tug



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11430 posts, RR: 61
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11348 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
AA is very reluctantly taking 738s to replace older MD80s, but wants a new plane. They want a plane at least 30% more efficient than their newest MD80s. That's achievable.

Agreed. The 737s are just a stopgap measure until something better comes along. And I also definitely agree that a 30% economic efficiency improvement over the MD80 is definitely achievable. Over NG 737-800s? Maybe not. But over 25-year-old MD80s? Oh yeah, without question.

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 7):
Entirely possible, but if you look back at the A300 order, it was announced at the same time as an order for 763s. It was mentioned, at the time, they split the order between Boeing and Airbus specifically to improve upon the purchase price.

That was a different time and a different market. Back then (in 1988), AA was also operating two types of 727s, multiple variants of 737s ex-Air Cal, MD80s, 747s, 757s, 767s and two variants of DC10s (in various configurations).

In this day and age, when AA has stressed so intensively in the last five years the need for fleet commonality and rationalization, I couldn't see them splitting a new widebody order between Airbus and Boeing. If Airbus is able to deliver astoundingly better performance and an astoundingly better price on the A350 vs the 787, I suppose they have a shot, but I personally see this market as the 787's order to lose. AA and the 787: a matter of when, not if, if you ask me.

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 7):
It's clear now we need more international capacity. I wish we'd just take delivery of the remaining seven 777s we have deferred. That would help things a lot.

That is, I think, the big issue with AA. It's not necessarily that they urgently need next-generation widebodies, per se, at least not from a financial standpoint, but it is that they desperately just need more widebodies period. This whole B.S. of adding here and subtracting there is getting real old, and AA won't be able to keep it up forever as competitors - particularly Delta and Continental - keep pouring capacity into international markets like water from the tap. Those 7 deferred 777s would help, but they still don't solve the longer-term problem of being able to adapt to a changing market with outdated and overly-utilized equipment. AA will eventually - whether they like it or not - need some type of ultra-long-range lift if they are to stay competitive. It's only a matter of time before that market (ULH) becomes the next battle field. They're also going to need something to start replacing A300s and 767-200s, probably in that order. Those things can just be put off forever.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 8):
When (not if) the new narrow bodies make it off the drawing board, what will the production levels have to be to meet this?

Massive. Perhaps unprecedented. If either Boeing or Airbus, or both, are able to produce a sufficient "quantum leap" in efficiency, as Redding alluded to, the market demand for such a product will be - as you say - absolutely enormous. There are many major carriers around the world that made the transition from first-generation narrowbodies (DC9s/MD80s/737s) to second-generation narrowbodies (A320s/737NGs) in the 1990s. It's now almost two decades later, and many of these airlines are eagerly looking for the next generation - something that can deliver on the stringent economic and environmental constraints now being placed on airlines without sacrificing performance nor technical capability.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12897 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11234 times:
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Quoting Qqflyboy (Thread starter):
New Engine Key To AA Fleet Renewal

I read the title and went... yea! No DUH!  Wink  duck   flamed 

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
But over 25-year-old MD80s? Oh yeah, without question.

There is a tremendous amount of improvement available.

At $90/bbl we'll see a twin row high turbine as a given. (Break even for the added parts is at about $40/bbl, maybe $45/bbl). 4% improvement in fuel burn over the CFM-56-7B

Contra rotation is now cheap: 3% improvement in fuel burn over the CFM-56-7B

Integrated blade rotor high and low compressors. (That's IBR LPC and IBR HPC). ~3% more drop in fuel burn

The fan is a big question... A more up to date design would help ~2%. A GTF another 8%.  bigthumbsup 

So that multiplies (fuel savings don't add... they multiply) to about a 17% drop in fuel burn over the CFM-56-7B.

Now go to a more efficient wing (possible, even over the relatively new 737NG wing), weight reduction via CFRP, you should see a 30% drop in fuel burn, for the same mission, versus the current narrowbodies (737NG, A32x).

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
Massive. Perhaps unprecedented. If either Boeing or Airbus, or both, are able to produce a sufficient "quantum leap" in efficiency, as Redding alluded to, the market demand for such a product will be - as you say - absolutely enormous.

 checkmark  We're talking production rates of 50 to 60 per month!  wideeyed 

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
In this day and age, when AA has stressed so intensively in the last five years the need for fleet commonality and rationalization, I couldn't see them splitting a new widebody order between Airbus and Boeing.

 checkmark  It would be winner take all. Assuming AA was allocated sufficient production slots.  Wink

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11430 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11210 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
We're talking production rates of 50 to 60 per month!

Minimum.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
Assuming AA was allocated sufficient production slots.

Which they no doubt would be. Despite differences that have arisen in the past between AA and Boeing, Boeing has demonstrated quite conclusively that AA is a highly valued customer. Nowadays, the potential upside for order potential is greater from AA than perhaps any other airline besides Southwest. AA has about 700 airplanes that are all going to need replacing in the next 10-20 years. That's a whole lot of airframes. Boeing and AA will work something out, I have no doubt.


User currently offlineA380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11182 times:

AA would never, ever go with the A350
They are almost all boeing now and with there amazing Airbuses they have I dont think airbus is really an option.



www.JandACosmetics.com
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11113 times:



Quoting A380US (Reply 12):

Oh yeah? Based on what data?


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10765 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
The 737s are just a stopgap measure until something better comes along.

Actually, the 738s were a replacement for the 727Advanced. They took all 77 in a 3 year span around the turn of the century to replace a fleet of 727s roughly the same size, and soon after the 727 was gone.

AA hadn't planned on the 738s replacing MD80s at this late date or ever, at least not as an entire fleet replacement, but because there is no better replacement, AA has reluctantly converted 44 more orders to replace the oldest MD80s.

[Edited 2008-02-18 21:25:30]


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10625 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
replace the oldest MD80s

There is a mechanical flaw that has increased replacement of the MDs at AA.

Quoting Qqflyboy (Thread starter):
considering the A350

Another tactical statement while negotiations for a new pilot agreement are stalled.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10598 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 15):
There is a mechanical flaw that has increased replacement of the MDs at AA.

Which is why AA has been forced to take those 40+ 738s they didn't want to take. Normally, Douglas can fly until they fall apart. AA was hoping to skip an entire generation of aircraft to replace them, giving them a competitive advantage in the future.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEbs757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 758 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10512 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 15):

There is a mechanical flaw that has increased replacement of the MDs at AA.

What was the flaw? I've heard nothing of this



Viva la Vida
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6122 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10299 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
AA is very reluctantly taking 738s to replace older MD80s, but wants a new plane. They want a plane at least 30% more efficient than their newest MD80s. That's achievable. Ideally, it would be even better. We'll see.

It has nothing to do with being very reluctant because they want a new plane. AA is just being financialy prudent. For example, 137 of their in-service MD-82s will be at least 20 years old by the end of the year, and the entire MD fleet will be at least 20 years old by the end of 2011.

They own the majority of their MD80s and given the state of the industry they are not in a position to replace (nor could they) their ~300 MD80s now... even though the 738 is ~30% more fuel efficient.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
Which is why AA has been forced to take those 40+ 738s they didn't want to take. Normally, Douglas can fly until they fall apart. AA was hoping to skip an entire generation of aircraft to replace them, giving them a competitive advantage in the future.

Sure, at 20+ years the Douglas' continue to guzzle fuel and increase in maintenace cost!!!

And what competitive advantage??? AA won't have an exlcusive on the 737RS!!!

Delta will be replacing their MD80's as well! And WN will be replacing their 737 Classics as well! And CO will be replacing their 737 Classics as well! Etc, etc. etc,.. Big grin

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
Now go to a more efficient wing (possible, even over the relatively new 737NG wing),

With an EIS 10 years (or more) away it is a certainty.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
weight reduction via CFRP,

The new NB systems will provide an even greater percentage gain than CFRP.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
We're talking production rates of 50 to 60 per month!

Minimum.

That would be a real stretch!  Smile



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10236 times:
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Quoting Ebs757 (Reply 17):
What was the flaw?

I'm not an A&P, but I've been told it's to do with the rear stabilizer. A design flaw - I don't know, but this is a reason why they want to take 737 to replace aging S80.


User currently offlineHawkerCamm From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 10031 times:



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 1):
A350/787- People would want to assume the 787, but the A350 is not out of reach either I suppose. Airline doing their job of looking at both prospects, and "checking it out" rather. I do hope to see the 787 as It could benefit STL, or maybe not at all.

It would make sense for AA to get both B787 and B350.
They currently have 73 B767s, 47 B777 and 129 B757
By 2025 AA's fleet could easily have 100 B787s and 50 A350s

The US majors (NW and CO excluded) are now going to have to wait a very long time for their new long-haul aircraft.
Both A350 and B787 must have order books full to 2017/18.
The demand from the US majors 2018-2025 may force them to draw aircraft from both A & B.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 10015 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 18):
It has nothing to do with being very reluctant because they want a new plane.

I love how so many people say things like this. It has NOTHING to do with this.

You know this? Nothing? Or it's just your opinion that it isn't a large factor?

The reality is AA did not want to replace the aging S80s with 738s, but because there was no new aircraft pending from Boeing before 2012, they are replacing the oldest ones (and just flat out retiring others).

If it were truly about guzzling fuel and maintenance, then AA would have decided as the 737NG was released that the S80s would be replaced on a schedule of 20 years or so. They did not do this. They replaced the 727s and stopped taking 738s after 2001. Because it WASN'T their plan. On shorter routes, the 738 just doesn't have that big of an advantage over the S80 in total fuel consumption, and the S80 is very well built for short haul multi-hops in a day work. AA really likes them. They need something better than the 738 to make a significant impact in fuel consumption. Yes the current fuel prices make the differences more pronounced, but even then, AA didn't place a massive 738 order conversion recently, but a very modest one.

AA keeps planes a long time. They have old 757s, old 767s, old MD80s. In that respect, they are more like NW than CO, who tries to have a newer fleet.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 18):
And what competitive advantage??? AA won't have an exlcusive on the 737RS!!!

Let me spell it out:

Assume the 737RS EIS of 2014, and we are talking about 2017.

In 2017 Airline X has a large fleet of 300 737NG because they replaced MD80s and 737 classic aircraft with it, and a smaller fleet of 100 737RS because they didn't have that many old planes left to replace by the time the 737RS entered service.

In 2017 AA has a smaller fleet of 100 737NG because they replaced 727s with it (and as few S80s as possible), and a large fleet of 300 737RS because they "skipped a generation" and replaced S80s aircraft with 737RS.

In terms of age of fleet, AA has the competitive advantage by having a much newer, more efficient fleet. They saved capital because they didn't buy a majority of 737NG.

DL is in a similar boat, with a very large fleet of MD80/90s that they are waiting to replace as long as possible with 737RS.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineThegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9667 times:



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
At $90/bbl we'll see a twin row high turbine as a given.

I would have thought so, but didn't CFM come out the other day and say they were planning to persist with the single stage HPT? This link is from last year but it says the same thing:
http://www.cfm56.com/index.php?level2=blog_viewpost&t=398

If you go to GTF & counter rotation though, wouldn't a single stage HPT be the correct decision?


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6122 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9669 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
You know this? Nothing? Or it's just your opinion that it isn't a large factor?

It is very simple!!! You just have to look at the cost of replacing their MDs (which they largely own) and their financials to realize it! Add in the economic uncertainty... mergers and consolidations... shrinking domestic market and it is transparently obvious!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
They did not do this. They replaced the 727s and stopped taking 738s after 2001.

After 2001... Duh!!!! Have you ever heard of 9/11???????

AA didn't order ANY aircraft after 2001 except for the 738s last year!!

AA narrowly averted Chap. 11 and shrank its fleet... and it has been shrinking every year domestically (they have 10,000 fewer employees since 9/11).

And they didn't "replace" the 727... it was the biggest NB gas guzzler in their fleet - all carriers got rid of their 727s!!! It is called fleet simplification!! AA even got rid of their F100s!! All airlines have rationalized their fleets!!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
They need something better than the 738 to make a significant impact in fuel consumption.

Rubbish... the 738 provides a ~30% improvement.... that is significant!! The 787 doesn't even offer that over the A330.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
AA keeps planes a long time. They have old 757s, old 767s, old MD80s.

It is called financial prudence!! And comparing the 757s & 767s to the MD80s is irrelevant! Their 757s fleet is not only not as old as the MD80s but, as with the 767s, they have far, far fewer cycles... from less than a third number of cycles of the MDs80s!!!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Let me spell it out:

Assume the 737RS EIS of 2014, and we are talking about 2017.

You don't know what you are saying... right there you are wrong already!! Boeing AND the engine manufacturers have stated numerous times that NB EIS will not be until 2017 at the earliest!! By then, most of AA's MDs will be approaching 30 years of high cycle ops!!!  Big grin



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9648 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
Assume the 737RS EIS of 2014, and we are talking about 2017.

That is the issue, because the EIS of the 737RS and a320NG are being pushed back furhter and further. They are now talking about EIS no earlier than 2017/2018!

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...yes-narrowbody-renewal-growth.html

and:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...d-to-meet-airline-demands-cfm.html

Quote:
Their respective A320 and 737 family replacements are not now expected to emerge until 2017 or later.

That would make the MD80's really old by the time they could be replaced.

On a side note: would it be possible to retrofit 737's and a320's with LEAP56 engines? Those already have a considerable better fuel burn, but not enough for the new generation NB's (according to the above flight articles).



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
25 KC135TopBoom : They already have it. It is called the B-737-800. But, what AA is really wanting, I believe, is the new B-737RS/Y-1, with the totally new engine. The
26 Post contains images FD728 : Why isn't the idea of putting V2500s or something similar on the MD80s not discussed anymore? It wouldn't solve the high-cycle problem of the frames b
27 Scouseflyer : My thoughts on this: 1. If there are 1000 possible sales for a narrowbody out there, could this encourage a new-player into the market - there are a f
28 Rheinwaldner : IMO that is by far too narrow minded. If Boeing would create a plane that would mainly serve AA alone that would be a disastrous business case. There
29 AJMIA : I agree they will not split the order. After dumping the the TWA 757s (which tightened the airplane crunch) to achieve 757 commonality, I do not see
30 SeJoWa : Would it be a sensible sort of hedge to simultaneously design an open rotor 150 seater complemented by a plane topping out at the 757 replacement leve
31 LMP737 : They also have some of the newest 757, 767 and MD-80's out there.
32 Parapente : I disagree with most people on this this thread. I believe this article speaks volumes about the future direction of the 737 replacement. He talks of
33 UAL777UK : With AA now and UA a few months back stating they want to see a next generation narrow bodies/engines before they order any older models in the market
34 Baron95 : AA is bitching and moaning that they want something new. But Boeing is not going to give it to them. In the end, AA will be forced to take more and mo
35 SEPilot : I have great respect for your knowledge and experience, but my recollection is that Boeing is saying that they are waiting until the engine manufactu
36 QQflyboy : AA's youngest MD-80s were "born" in 1999. That would make those frames only 12 years old in 2011. But your point is taken... many of the MD-80s are a
37 YULWinterSkies : Doesn't AA has a rather heterogeneous engine inventory? 777 : RR 767 : is it PW? A300 : GE 738 : GE (CFM56) MD80 : is it PW? 757 : RR (again, am I cor
38 R2rho : I'm perplexed. So are they saying they want the 737-800? This airplane he's talking about is already available today! And they have several of them!
39 LMP737 : A little bit of trivia for everyone. AA placed the last "big" order for the 757 in 2000, twenty aircraft to replace the ex-Reno birds. It will be nic
40 Undrtkrav8tr : I never did see an answer to upgrading the MD-80's to the V2500 Engine....seems to me at least replacing engines as they are due major overhauls with
41 United787 : Anyone care to expand on this? I assume there is a major part of the rear stabilizer for the MD-80 that needs replacing and it is more economical to
42 Ikramerica : Not on shorter missions it's not. Part of the 738s efficiency is at longer range. Yes, the longer range MD80 flights like ORD-LAX see benefit with th
43 Ikramerica : They have a standing "order" for X Boeing widebodies and Y Boeing narrowbodies, a compromise when they weren't allowed to maintain their exclusivity
44 Post contains images Planemaker : Yes, this is a very important point!! It could be the last NB family produced by Boeing (and Airbus) for at least 40 years! It isn't... the premise a
45 Thegeek : Wouldn't that be tremendously expensive? It's said to be cost prohibitive to convert an aircraft from one engine to another, even if the aircraft cou
46 Tullamarine : AA didn't delay the order of 737NGs because of some brilliant long term plam; it was because thet had no capital available. Ditto for UA and their old
47 RoseFlyer : A lot of people in this thread seem to make this statement, but all I can say is that the 737 now has the largest backlog that it has ever had. Yes t
48 AM744 : I'm a bit confused. Is the mentioned 30% increase relative to the MD80 or the 738? Just how much more efficient is the 738 compared to the MD80 on an
49 Iwannagothere : Can someone explain why AA hasn't accepted those deffered 777's. If they were to carry out the order how long would it be until they are devliverd?
50 Post contains images Planemaker : Please, don't let the facts get in the way of other people's misconceptions as to why AA didn't take delivery of 738s!! As it is... the earliest that
51 Post contains images Lightsaber : For various reasons Boeing dreds the concept of the GTF. I'm a huge fan Since the GTF is finally moving forward, Boeing will have to compete against
52 Post contains links QQflyboy : I understand your point, but AA had placed actual orders for 124 frames between 1996 and 2001. Only 77 have been delivered so far. The remaining 47 f
53 Thegeek : I'm not convinced. What you have said above is correct without a GTF, but a GTF changes the trade off significantly. The problem with a single stage
54 FlagshipAZ : 777...all RRs 767...all GEs A300...all GEs 738...all CFM56s MD-80...all PWs 757...all RRs Actually engine commonality does matter at AA. Remember the
55 Lightsaber : You will always extract further work with a 2nd HPT stage. Thus you can power more HPC stages (the work always balances). This increases the overall
56 Thegeek : Are you saying, though, that you will extract more work with 2x HPT stages and 3x LPT stages as compared to 1x HPT stages and 4x LPT stages, even if
57 Ckfred : Don't forget that AA still has a 20-year agreement with Boeing to replace what was the fleet in the late 1990s, around 625 airplanes. That deal runs t
58 Post contains images Fruitbat : What about a 3-shaft solution
59 WA707atMSP : Remember, when AA ordered the MD-80, the A320 wasn't even in production. AA ordered their first MD-80s in 1982, for 1983 delivery, then placed their
60 Ikramerica : Rewriting history? AA made lots of money and did quite well with the MD80s. They expanded into the largest airline in the world with them. The A320 w
61 Planemaker : ATI reports that R-R is studying an "advanced two-shaft" design and a three-shaft "baby Trent" engine. Also reported was that PW's preferred NB appro
62 Par13del : So how many pax does the MD80's carry in AA service versus the B-737's or does pax capacity have nothing whatsoever to do with airline a/c purchases?
63 Planemaker : News out of Singapore is that MHI is looking to launch the MRJ very soon (they are clearing out their CRJ and Q400 manufacturing obligations) and BBD
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